I think it's the route designs, we never and I mean never have anyone running open in space across the middle, like I see with other teams, we're always hoping to win a highly contested catch.
Art Rooney II is the new Bob Nutting??
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If I’m a CEO, I’m evaluated on my performance, not on my performance compared to mediocre companies with mediocre products. My job is to give consumers/customers what they need. And over the last 12 years, it’s hard to argue that 7 playoff appearances and 3 playoff wins is anything but mediocre.
When your customer base is used to and expects more than 3 playoff wins over 12 seasons then for that particular customer base, the product is mediocre.
Art is definitely no Dan, or the young Dan anyway, a guy who was embarrassed by his doddling fool of a father, who drove the family franchise to be a winner and to build a giant fortune. Art, like so many wealthy scions, grew up sheltered from reality and accustomed to adulation and privilege. Some guys like this feel pressure to meet or exceed the dad’s standards, while others, well, go the way of Art. He is content to keep things humming along, the lovable patriarch, concerning himself more with social causes. It’s been clear this past decade, and the results bear it out . Great life for him, great for those causes he supports, but not so much for fans who want their team to win championships and don’t care about anything else.
I beg to disagree with that. 3 playoff wins in the last 12 years with a franchise quarterback and lots of talent. I think Tomlin has underachieved as a coach with the talent he has had. I think if you compare players that Tomlin had and the ones Cowher had you will see that Tomlin has had more talent to work with.
I have not been happy with the on field results of late, but I prefer an owner like Art as opposed to the idiot in Dallas. That franchise hasn't been relevant (no Super Bowls) in the last 25 years or so.
The problem with the Steelers lies in the coach and his staff. Tomlin is a good not a great head coach. I also feel Tomlin has too much power in the organization and will do as her sees fit. Perfect example is the joke of an offensive coordinator. No NFL experience when hired by Tomlin and he serves 1 year as QB coach and gets elevated to OC. I kept hearing from local media about the "Matt Canada Offense". The Matt Canada offense is a college offense that uses motion and shifting to confuse teams. The only people confused were the Steeler players. As I stated in a prior post, this team scored 1 touchdown in 2 of the last 3 games and those touchdowns were scored on the final drive of the game in a no huddle offense. Guess who was calling the plays? Last year, how many drives were successful when going no huddle?
Hard disagree. I don’t know where it’s coming from, but this notion that Cowher’s teams had no talent compared to Tomlin is absolutely ludicrous.
Yeah I disagree too. Cowher had HOF players. He didn’t lack talent.
Personally I don’t see much of a difference between Cowher and Tomlin. Both good coaches. Just not great.
The difference is....and it is a huge one, Tomlin has had a HOF QB in his prime for most of his career. Cowher's teams were certainly loaded with talent. One thing that rarely happened in the Cowher era were draft misses.
I mean the Houston Texans have as many playoff wins as the Pittsburgh Steelers in the last 12 years.
Also, "the standard is the standard". Well the standard is different for the Steelers vs say, the Colts. The Lions. The Browns. The Bengals, The Texans, etc....etc...
It’s probably part playcalling. It’s probably part the guys on the field. But the lack of explosive plays means the offense (and offensive coordinator) has to always do it the hard way. It’s hard to always have to string 10 or 12 plays together.
I like Najee, but when he gets a ton of volume, your chance for splash goes down. DJ is elite at getting open, but horrible at turning it into a big play.
Pickens can be great, but he hasn’t hit any true home runs yet. Need another explosive player. Maybe Austin is him.
Well they are both HOFers.
Who is great then? Belechick and his 10 games under .500 in 160 games without Brady? (Read that again and take a moment to digest how big of a sample that is, and how average it is)
Even the best résumé’s have holes. Steelers are lucky to have the half century of coaches they have.
Who’s a great coach? Currently active?
Now you’re going to make me go back over Cowher’s drafts. I bet there were more misses than we remember. And he had plenty of HOF talent at RB and defense.
I think sometimes the steelers are victims of their own success. not every era can be the 70s and 00s. the 80s were not that bad when compared to what other teams go through and the last 10-12 years were actually really successful. A case can be made the that 2010-19 was the 3rd best decade in steelers history.
Belichek is 30-12 in the playoffs. That’s the list. We don’t have to add people to the “great list” just for the sake of adding them.
That’s how I feel about the HOF too. It should be a Hall of the great. Not a hall for the good to very good. Cowher shouldn’t be there, and I am a Cowher guy. And tomlin HOF talk at this point is crazy talk. That’s my opinion.
Were fans in the 90's and early 2000's at all mad about the fact the Steelers couldn't find a franchise QB? Not questioning Cowher's in-game coaching and personnel management, but it seems like a major failing on both his part and the org as a whole. I only started following the Steelers Roethlisberger's rookie season.
From 1992-2003, I'd say Bill's offense was above average when it came to talent but usually below average at QB/WR.
Bill's truly undeniable great offensive players during that time were:
Dermotti Dawson and Jerome Bettis.
Think about his 1997 team. He got them to the AFC Championship Team with:
QB - Kordell Stewart
TB - Jerome Bettis - HOF
FB - Tim Lester
WR - Charles Johnson
WR - Yancey Thigpen - Pro Bowler
TE - Jon Hayes
RT - Justin Strzelcyk
RG - Brendan Stai
C - Dirt Dawson - HOF
LG - Will Wolford
LT - John Jackson
Tomlin lost in to Blake Bortles and the Jaguars with
QB - Ben Rothlisberger - HOF
TB - Leveon Bell - Best RB in Football
FB - Rosey Nix - Pro Bowler
WR - Antonion Brown - Best WR in Football
WR - Juju Smith Shuster
WR - Martavis Bryant - Freak
LT - Vlllaneauva - Pro Bowler
LG - Foster
C - Pouncey - Pro Bowler
RG - Decastro - Pro Bowler
RT - Gilbert
Cowher never had that much offensive talent to squander and opportunity like Tomlin has.
If Tomlin can prove he can win big with Kenny he'll re-write his own history. For now, he was really good with Cowher's players. Cowher on the other hand took over a below average team and won with many of Noll's players, built his own roster many times over and won bigger then Tomlin ever has. Since Tomlin has built his own roster, he doesn't really challenge for anything.
I mean you had Jamain Stephens, but he was the 30th overall pick. Troy Edwards was a reach. But man, he had alot of talent and we drafted pretty well up and down the lineup and especially LOS. Hampton, Faneca, Simmons, Marvel Smith, Woodley, Bell, Kirkland, Troy, Heath, trading for Bettis giving up only a 2nd rd pick, Plaxico Santana Holmes, Some guy named Ben, chad Brown, Bruener, Kordell, those are just 1st and 2nd rounders. That's not counting Hines Ward, Brett Keisel, Aaron Smith, Jason Gildon, Joey Porter, Larry Foote all taken 3rd rd or later.
I do think Tomlin has had too much final say in the draft over the past few years.
Not to mention of those 3 Tomlin wins over these past 12 years, one was against a hapless Dolphins team, one was kicking 6 FG's against the Chiefs, and the other was the implosion of the Bengals with Burfict and PacMan gift wrapping the game to the Steelers.
My comment about talent did not mean Cowher's teams did not have talent. I just think overall Tomlin has had more talent to work with than Cowher. This is my opinion and my opinion only.
I went back and looked at the 2006 Steelers because it was a creepy similar season to this season. In that season, Ben had no off-season because of the motorcycle accident. Then he had appendectomy surgery. Then he had a concussion. The Steelers had other injuries too. They started 2-6 as a result. Then went 6-2 to finish 8-8.
But what I forgot was the draft. It was horrendous. But, Santonio got them a super bowl so maybe it wasn’t that bad.
| 1 | Santonio Holmes | 25 | WR | 9 | 2006 | 2014 | 0 | 0 | 6 | 47 | 112 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 16 | 89 | 0 | 389 | 6030 | 36 | Ohio St. |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 3 | Anthony Smith | 83 | DB | 6 | 2006 | 2011 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 12 | 76 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Syracuse | ||||||||
| 3 | Willie Reid | 95 | WR | 2 | 2006 | 2007 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 54 | 0 | Florida St. | ||||||
| 4 | Willie Colon | 131 | G | 9 | 2006 | 2015 | 0 | 0 | 6 | 40 | 100 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Hofstra | ||||||
| 4 | Orien Harris | 133 | DT | 3 | 2006 | 2009 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 20 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Miami (FL) | ||||||||
| 5 | Omar Jacobs | 164 | QB | 0 | 0 | 0 | Bowling Green | ||||||||||||||||
| 5 | Charles Davis | 167 | TE | 0 | 0 | 0 | Purdue | ||||||||||||||||
| 6 | Marvin Philip | 201 | C | 0 | 0 | 0 | California | ||||||||||||||||
| 7 | Cedric Humes | 240 |
I forget exactly which game, but Kenny hit Pickens in stride for what would have been a 50+ yard TD pass and Pickens dropped it, wide open right in his hands.
This is much more specific
https://www.foxsports.com/watch/1281117251705
I think Harrison hits the nail on the head. You can tell he doesn't feel comfortable about deep diving on Tomlin's shortcomings but it's there. He's just giving the tip of the iceberg. I think Tomlin's shortcomings with his staff hires might have to do with his own personality. I don't think he likes having guys on his staff who might challenge him.
You list the Steelers offensive players that playoff game but don’t mention they put up 42 points that game vs the #1-2 defense in the league. The jaguars had 6 pro bowlers on defense including 3 linemen and both corners.
The jaguars were also the 5-6th best offense in the league that season. They also went on to hold onto a lead against Brady’s Patriots the next game until the final 3 minutes. So they weren’t some pushover.
Yes and no. I believe the want for a better QB was there, but where were the opportunities to get one?
yes, that is a far better example, that team had no business winning even without Mendenhall and Clark. But Jacksonville was a legit team that season.
Yes yes yes ive been saying that about Pickens also. He's so damn good at the 50/50 balls that he never had to be a great route runner.
He very rarely has space. Diontae is much much better at creating space. Pickens catches are so often contested. He needs to improve on this.
Do you want him without Brady?
Got a decade plus of ball to show you will be sitting at home.
Edit: my bad…only 9 seasons. 7 out of 9 LOSING seasons for the great BB.
So basically….in aggregate…he can’t beat them more than they beat him without Brady. It’s what the data show. And a big ass sample of it.
No doubt as a rookie Pickens has a lot to learn about "running routes."
But, Canada has him running fly routes up the sideline most of the game, which other teams know. It was like a miracle when he ran a slant for the game winning TD against I think it was the Raiders, defense didn't know what to do.
Johnson has some talent but gets fed the ball on routes the defense is mostly conceding, he constantly is running backwards on catches cause he's running through the route that way.
I’m certainly not going to do mental gymnastics in order to describe a coach who did this and then not call him great:
13 afc championship games in 18 years
8 afc championship games in a row
9 Super Bowls,
won 6 Super bowl titles
Are you suggesting he and Tomlin be placed in the same category? Tomlin has been in 3 AFC championship games in 16 years.
It’s not mental gymnastics. It’s one simple metric. Record without Brady. The sample size is bigger than one may think, and the results are worse than one might think. Why can’t he win consistently? It’s a fair question.
Coach/QB combo is the most important in sports. Is he a HOF coach? Absolutely. But he also had one of the most unique winners in sports history, playing in a division with duds.
I’m not suggesting Tomlin resume is as good. No one’s is. But his floor has been a lot higher, and BB’s overall body of work has its flaws too.
But not the way you think…
The Browns were good in the 80s. BB takes over and they mostly go in the shitter in the 90s. Their lineage becomes the Ravens, and they become very competitive again. Win a SB a few years after.
So basically that operation was good before and after him.
It is what it is. It’s not what I would like. But you can do that with the losses too.
*Robbed of home field with Jesse James
*Lev Bell hurt for 2 of those runs
*AB knocked silly and out for Den game
*Shazier situation
*Ben playing separated shoulder
*COVID year empty stadium with Pouncey gift wrap.
But no…the selective endpoints of the last decade playoff results were not good enough. Not even close. But answering the “great coach” question will require looking at the whole body of work - before that, and what will come in the coming years.
Is it receivers, or is it the OC not scheming them open?
Watching Brock Purdy throw three TDs in the 49ers offense was frustrating yesterday. Keeping Canada is the kind of decision that can ruin a guy like Picketts career.
Mike Brown is a good comparison (as is Marvin Lewis for Tomlin). But I used Nutting because of this exact speculation of Canada sticking around because he is still being paid.
What has he done without Tom Brady?
I think success is success, so it is hard to not say that Belichick is not the best NFL coach of all-time, But, personnel matters and the difference between Tom Brady and Ben Roethlisberger is sizeable though Roethlisberger himself was an HOF talent (and will be inducted shortly). Brady is the best NFL QB ever by far at this point.
With Tomlin, in the non-Belichick division (you can really only include Noll, Walsh and Shula in that division), competes very well as a guy that has just been an excellent NFL coach over time. He has a lot of wins, has his SB and his teams have played very hard time and time again (never having a losing record), even when lacking talent.
Tomlin is an NFL HOF coach. I think that is really all that needs to be said.
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