Did any one else notice that Pitt has basically doubled the cost of parking...

[BuffetParrothead]

We do have demand, just not enough to fill HF. I don't think it will matter much how many games Pitt wins. Once the initial surge in attendance happens, it will fall back even if they keep winning. We just don't have a large enough number of dedicated fans to maintain the attendance. That takes decades to build. The better solution is to lower the capacity, which will increase the value of every ticket.

That's like a consumer products company saying we have demand for our product so let's shut down one of the production plants and just sell our product to the customers we have rather than grow the market.

That company will go out of business.

If PITT football accepts the present attendance as this as good as it gets I submit PITT isn't a D1/P5 program and won't be in five years.

There are other programs who don't have that view and would be a better choice for the ACC.

It is a fact that over the years the PITT administration damaged PITT football.

The question is can this damage be repaired.

I say yes but it'll take a huge effort from fans, boosters, a PITT commitment, and a winning program.


"it's five o'clock somewhere"
Signed: Mr Buffett
Go PITT & CSU Rams!

 

[McKee Place]

That's like a consumer products company saying we have demand for our product so let's shut down one of the production plants and just sell our product to the customers we have rather than grow the market.

That company will go out of business.

If PITT football accepts the present attendance as this as good as it gets I submit PITT isn't a D1/P5 program and won't be in five years.

There are other programs who don't have that view and would be a better choice for the ACC.

It is a fact that over the years the PITT administration damaged PITT football.

The question is can this damage be repaired.

I say yes but it'll take a huge effort from fans, boosters, a PITT commitment, and a winning program.


"it's five o'clock somewhere"
Signed: Mr Buffett
Go PITT & CSU Rams!

Removing Watson was a good sign. Pending the replacement, of course. But they did win a division and did make a bowl and neither were expected, so they easily could have kept the status quo, with some justification. To their credit they saw the offense was critically bad and are pursuing a change. That's more than I expected to be honest.

 

[HailtoPitt]

That's like a consumer products company saying we have demand for our product so let's shut down one of the production plants and just sell our product to the customers we have rather than grow the market.

That company will go out of business.

If PITT football accepts the present attendance as this as good as it gets I submit PITT isn't a D1/P5 program and won't be in five years.

There are other programs who don't have that view and would be a better choice for the ACC.

It is a fact that over the years the PITT administration damaged PITT football.

The question is can this damage be repaired.

I say yes but it'll take a huge effort from fans, boosters, a PITT commitment, and a winning program.


"it's five o'clock somewhere"
Signed: Mr Buffett
Go PITT & CSU Rams!

It's not about accepting the present attendance. It's about accepting the attendance in general, which has been proven to be pretty consistent over the years unless Pitt is really awful. If Ford can sell 1 million Fusions in a year, they aren't going to make 2 million per year. The Steelers could probably add 20,000 more seats to HF and continue to sell every seat, but they don't. There is a good reason for that.

 

[pittdan77]

We do have demand, just not enough to fill HF. I don't think it will matter much how many games Pitt wins. Once the initial surge in attendance happens, it will fall back even if they keep winning. We just don't have a large enough number of dedicated fans to maintain the attendance. That takes decades to build. The better solution is to lower the capacity, which will increase the value of every ticket.

So Pitt averages around 30-40k per game in attendance most years. How exactly do you responsibly lower capacity (given those numbers) without just alienating casual fans? Hint: You can't.

You're not going to meaningfully limit capacity and force the market to pay more. All you're going to do is drive demand down even more. While it may take decades (it probably won't) to build a larger, dedicated fan base, your problem isn't that Pitt doesn't have enough fans. There are plenty. It's just that most can't be bothered because there isn't anything to get excited about.

You're putting the problem out of order. You can discuss limiting capacity once you reach a demand threshold that supports it. Imagine Apple deciding to make less new generation iPhones and charging three times as much for them. Five years ago, the market might have supported it because there was plenty of demand. Now, people are holding onto their old products because they don't see a good reason to fork over the extra cash for a new product that is roughly the same cost. If Apple comes up with some kind of new tech that people are willing to sleep on a sidewalk for, then you can have that conversation.

Nobody is sleeping on a sidewalk so they don't miss getting Pitt football tickets.

 

[pittdan77]

It's not about accepting the present attendance. It's about accepting the attendance in general, which has been proven to be pretty consistent over the years unless Pitt is really awful. If Ford can sell 1 million Fusions in a year, they aren't going to make 2 million per year. The Steelers could probably add 20,000 more seats to HF and continue to sell every seat, but they don't. There is a good reason for that.[/QUOTE]

The Patriots average about $380 per ticket. The Steelers get $215 and had to lower their ticket costs two years ago. Given that the capacity of the two stadiums are similar, should the Steelers tarp off the upper deck to create more demand and raise prices or do you think something else is creating the demand?

 

[HailtoPitt]

The Patriots average about $380 per ticket. The Steelers get $215 and had to lower their ticket costs two years ago. Given that the capacity of the two stadiums are similar, should the Steelers tarp off the upper deck to create more demand and raise prices or do you think something else is creating the demand?

Steelers essentially already tarped when the built HF at a lower capacity then they could sell tickets for.

 

[HailtoPitt]

So Pitt averages around 30-40k per game in attendance most years. How exactly do you responsibly lower capacity (given those numbers) without just alienating casual fans? Hint: You can't.

You're not going to meaningfully limit capacity and force the market to pay more. All you're going to do is drive demand down even more. While it may take decades (it probably won't) to build a larger, dedicated fan base, your problem isn't that Pitt doesn't have enough fans. There are plenty. It's just that most can't be bothered because there isn't anything to get excited about.

You're putting the problem out of order. You can discuss limiting capacity once you reach a demand threshold that supports it. Imagine Apple deciding to make less new generation iPhones and charging three times as much for them. Five years ago, the market might have supported it because there was plenty of demand. Now, people are holding onto their old products because they don't see a good reason to fork over the extra cash for a new product that is roughly the same cost. If Apple comes up with some kind of new tech that people are willing to sleep on a sidewalk for, then you can have that conversation.

Nobody is sleeping on a sidewalk so they don't miss getting Pitt football tickets.

What casual fans are we worried about alienating? The ones who buy a scalped ticket for $5?

 

[McKee Place]

What casual fans are we worried about alienating? The ones who buy a scalped ticket for $5?

Most of the tickets go unused. Money isn't the issue. It's time. The product is perceived to not be worth investing the time and associated hassle. It burns many up that most fans are shallow and spoiled by the Steelers and Penguins (and the success of the biggest college programs around us) and have such lofty expectations. But Kellogg's probably also wishes most Pop Tart fans didn't demand frosting. Probably much easier to crank em out plain. Frosting is probably a pain for them ... sticky, messy, maddening sprinkles falling all over the factory floor etc. etc.... and certainly adds a cost. But it's what their customers demand, or they'll buy something else.

 

[HailtoPitt]

Most of the tickets go unused. Money isn't the issue. It's time. The product is perceived to not be worth investing the time and associated hassle. It burns many up that most fans are shallow and spoiled by the Steelers and Penguins (and the success of the biggest college programs around us) and have such lofty expectations. But Kellogg's probably also wishes most Pop Tart fans didn't demand frosting. Probably much easier to crank em out plain. Frosting is probably a pain for them ... sticky, messy, maddening sprinkles falling all over the factory floor etc. etc.... and certainly adds a cost. But it's what their customers demand, or they'll buy something else.

Kellogs should produce twice the amount of poptarts that their customers want. Should go well.

 

[McKee Place]

Kellogs should produce twice the amount of poptarts that their customers want. Should go well.

If they were four times as delicious, they'd need a bigger space in the store and could charge double anyway. Tasting closer to cardboard, frosting or no, is their problem. And in essence that's Pitt's issue: the product tastes like cardboard.

 

[TIGER-PAUL]

Well it appears you can purchase seats in any section upcoming so I guess the wrapping is off the table?

 

[HailtoPitt]

If they were four times as delicious, they'd need a bigger space in the store and could charge double anyway. Tasting closer to cardboard, frosting or no, is their problem. And in essence that's Pitt's issue: the product tastes like cardboard.

Isn't that the reason for the frosting? Because pastry itself is like cardboard. The filling gross. So pile on some frosting and sprinkles and people won't notice!

 

[HailtoPitt]

Well it appears you can purchase seats in any section upcoming so I guess the wrapping is off the table?

I believe you mean the frosting is off the Pop Tart.

 

[pittdan77]

Steelers essentially already tarped when the built HF at a lower capacity then they could sell tickets for.

Considering they've increased capacity since it was built, that doesn't appear to be the case.

What casual fans are we worried about alienating? The ones who buy a scalped ticket for $5?

You seem committed to avoiding the response. What capacity do you want to set for Pitt games that will support a modest increase in pricing?

 

[McKee Place]

I believe you mean the frosting is off the Pop Tart.

Now you're getting into the spirit!

 

[HailtoPitt]

Considering they've increased capacity since it was built, that doesn't appear to be the case.



You seem committed to avoiding the response. What capacity do you want to set for Pitt games that will support a modest increase in pricing?

Between 40k and 50k. We can't support more for most games.

 

[BuffetParrothead]

It's not about accepting the present attendance. It's about accepting the attendance in general, which has been proven to be pretty consistent over the years unless Pitt is really awful. If Ford can sell 1 million Fusions in a year, they aren't going to make 2 million per year. The Steelers could probably add 20,000 more seats to HF and continue to sell every seat, but they don't. There is a good reason for that.

Here's the news. It's great you used the Ford Fusion which was just in the news.
Ford Will Drop Focus and Fusion Sedans in North America. This is a recent Ford Headline!
Ford and other US auto manufacturers are moving production to popular suv's and trucks which are in demand not sedans.

Just as I said in my previous post the Fusion market was flat so is PITT's attendance and Ford expecting a decline in sales so they dumped the model. Watch out PITT football it's time to grow attendance or go the way of the Ford Fusion.

This was my exact example.
Using you numbers if Ford couldn't get sales of the Fusion closer to 2 mill they don't see a business opportunity.

So if PITT can't grow it's attendance it will go the way of the Ford Fusion!

"it's five o'clock somewhere"
Signed: Mr Buffett
Go PITT & CSU Rams!

 

[McKee Place]

Here's the news. It's great you used the Ford Fusion which was just in the news.
Ford Will Drop Focus and Fusion Sedans in North America. This is a recent Ford Headline!
Ford and other US auto manufacturers are moving production to popular suv's and trucks which are in demand not sedans.

Just as I said in my previous post the Fusion market was flat so is PITT's attendance and Ford expecting a decline in sales so they dumped the model. Watch out PITT football it's time to grow attendance or go the way of the Ford Fusion.

This was my exact example.
Using you numbers if Ford couldn't get sales of the Fusion closer to 2 mill they don't see a business opportunity.

So if PITT can't grow it's attendance it will go the way of the Ford Fusion!

"it's five o'clock somewhere"
Signed: Mr Buffett
Go PITT & CSU Rams!

Please pay more attention. The topic of this thread is Kellogg's Pop Tarts.

 

[Kenny Football]

Ok let’s clear this up a little first the parking authority is raising there rate a little bit. Then Pitt will be adding $100 to the parking on top of that. If you figure in your donation for some like me it is a wash or I save some money with Pitt football and basketball being broken up.
The bottom line is if you want to be big time and I do not want to hear about the last 30 years made 40 how Pitt screwed it up. Heather is trying to move this program ahead and the Pitt fans will fight her every step of the way. I can not tell you how to spend your money but if you want to be like Clemson who pays $2000 a spot per + ticket + Plus donation then let’s try to work on this we are down at the bottom for fun raising it is pathetic. A lot has to change including fans mentality. Parka the 9th street garage if you want to go cheep and that is no problem

you mean the $10 donation to iptay? posters here can't pay $10 till the stadium is on campus. biggest problem is mentality. death valley is a shithole but you won't hear a clemson fan badmouth it ever. go ahead and check it out, it's unlocked now. it's acting a great time to do so... they'll soon be placing new banners around the concourses. (removing banner displaying pitt beating them)

 

[Kenny Football]

Here's the news. It's great you used the Ford Fusion which was just in the news.
Ford Will Drop Focus and Fusion Sedans in North America. This is a recent Ford Headline!
Ford and other US auto manufacturers are moving production to popular suv's and trucks which are in demand not sedans.

Just as I said in my previous post the Fusion market was flat so is PITT's attendance and Ford expecting a decline in sales so they dumped the model. Watch out PITT football it's time to grow attendance or go the way of the Ford Fusion.

This was my exact example.
Using you numbers if Ford couldn't get sales of the Fusion closer to 2 mill they don't see a business opportunity.

So if PITT can't grow it's attendance it will go the way of the Ford Fusion!

"it's five o'clock somewhere"
Signed: Mr Buffett
Go PITT & CSU Rams!

ford bet on the nafta loophole and lost. total false analogy here

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

ford bet on the nafta loophole and lost. total false analogy here

Ford actually isn't just dropping Focus and Fusion sedans, they are stopping the production of all sedans for sale in the US except for the Mustang, and the only reason they are going to continue producing Mustangs is that the name has cache, both here and in Europe.

Personally I think it's a really stupid decision that could come back to bite them in the rear end in the future, but they obviously think otherwise.

 

[Kenny Football]

Ford actually isn't just dropping Focus and Fusion sedans, they are stopping the production of all sedans for sale in the US except for the Mustang, and the only reason they are going to continue producing Mustangs is that the name has cache, both here and in Europe.

Personally I think it's a really stupid decision that could come back to bite them in the rear end in the future, but they obviously think otherwise.

they're betting against american manufacturing. there was a pre trump sedan tariff, ford made plans to move sedan production out of usa and not sell them into usa. bmw saw same market and built a sedan plant in SC. ford heavily relies on nafta loophole and doubled down. i drive the focus that was made in michigan

 

[pittdan77]

Between 40k and 50k. We can't support more for most games.

So you'd still have empty seats for most of the games you play. How exactly does limiting supply to a point where you still have a surplus going to drive up demand? Or, more precisely, what would create demand in that situation?

 

[HailtoPitt]

So you'd still have empty seats for most of the games you play. How exactly does limiting supply to a point where you still have a surplus going to drive up demand? Or, more precisely, what would create demand in that situation?

I think that the seats will have more value, so you would have fewer people getting seasons tickets and then not doing anything with them.

 

[pittdan77]

I think that the seats will have more value, so you would have fewer people getting seasons tickets and then not doing anything with them.

That concept only works in textbooks at the most basic level of supply and demand. Realistically, entertainment dollars are pretty much fixed for most people. They're not going to make purchasing decisions based on a hoarding mentality or because seats might have value eventually. They're making decisions with their money because they have limits to what they can do with it. If you look around at what the options are, investing in Pitt tickets probably falls pretty low on their priority list when they have other options and Pitt will probably just be mediocre.

If Pitt starts winning, that equation changes if enough people decide going to a game might be fun enough to blow the entire day and a hundred bucks or so. But what value does limiting capacity have for Pitt in that case? You might get a few extra bucks from the people showing up but I'd guess a bump from a 40k average to a 50k average isn't worth the effort of keeping 5k people out of the stadium. It would just look like another poor decision by the Pitt brass.

 

[HailtoPitt]

That concept only works in textbooks at the most basic level of supply and demand. Realistically, entertainment dollars are pretty much fixed for most people. They're not going to make purchasing decisions based on a hoarding mentality or because seats might have value eventually. They're making decisions with their money because they have limits to what they can do with it. If you look around at what the options are, investing in Pitt tickets probably falls pretty low on their priority list when they have other options and Pitt will probably just be mediocre.

If Pitt starts winning, that equation changes if enough people decide going to a game might be fun enough to blow the entire day and a hundred bucks or so. But what value does limiting capacity have for Pitt in that case? You might get a few extra bucks from the people showing up but I'd guess a bump from a 40k average to a 50k average isn't worth the effort of keeping 5k people out of the stadium. It would just look like another poor decision by the Pitt brass.

They can always have the option to add more seats for higher demand games, but the main issue is season tickets. Capacity on those is essentially unlimited, which is a problem. Too many people are getting season tickets for cheap, and then don't use them. The tickets are cheap because there are too many available seats.

One other thing people don't realize, is that winning won't cure the attendance problem. It will help, and there would be an initial surge, but the size of our fanbase just isn't big enough to fill HF consistently, even while winning big.

 

[pittdan77]

They can always have the option to add more seats for higher demand games, but the main issue is season tickets. Capacity on those is essentially unlimited, which is a problem. Too many people are getting season tickets for cheap, and then don't use them. The tickets are cheap because there are too many available seats.

One other thing people don't realize, is that winning won't cure the attendance problem. It will help, and there would be an initial surge, but the size of our fanbase just isn't big enough to fill HF consistently, even while winning big.

To your first point, people buying season tickets and leaving them empty is a unique cultural problem at Pitt. But that problem was the same at Pitt stadium so I don't know what difference that makes. I suppose you could limit the number of season tickets you sell but I'd guess that all you would do is kill off some sure fire donations.

I tend to disagree with you about winning and it's affect on the size of the fan base. The Penguins are a perfect example of a team that had a non-existent fan base that turned Pittsburgh into one of the biggest hockey media markets in the US. It's consistent winning that builds fan bases. But even if you don't believe in that potential, I think there are a ton of closet Pitt fans that suffer from thirty odd years of disappointment. If you give those people a reason to come out of the shadows, you might find out that enthusiasm can become contagious. There's really no reason not to invest in that possibility. Going back to what I said earlier, you have a team because you're trying to win. Put the pieces in place to do that and see what happens.

 

[BigPoppaPitt]

To your first point, people buying season tickets and leaving them empty is a unique cultural problem at Pitt. But that problem was the same at Pitt stadium so I don't know what difference that makes. I suppose you could limit the number of season tickets you sell but I'd guess that all you would do is kill off some sure fire donations.

I tend to disagree with you about winning and it's affect on the size of the fan base. The Penguins are a perfect example of a team that had a non-existent fan base that turned Pittsburgh into one of the biggest hockey media markets in the US. It's consistent winning that builds fan bases. But even if you don't believe in that potential, I think there are a ton of closet Pitt fans that suffer from thirty odd years of disappointment. If you give those people a reason to come out of the shadows, you might find out that enthusiasm can become contagious. There's really no reason not to invest in that possibility. Going back to what I said earlier, you have a team because you're trying to win. Put the pieces in place to do that and see what happens.

The Elephant in the room that no one is talking about is the tax code change.

I used to donate close to $10k/yr for 4 FB and 2 BB Clubs and the Football Excellence Fund, between all of those, I received several "priority points" and a decent tax deduction.

Subsequently, the tax code changed, Pitt BB cratered, I moved 600 miles away in '17 and cancelled the BB Clubs (kept FB West Clubs) and only made the PSU game this year and Okie St. and Miami last year. I did take a few to the ACC Championship Game last month.

Today, I got an email that I can purchase "priority points" 2 for the price of 1 in lieu of a tax deduction. I think that I'm high enough up the food point chain to not have any worries about any future post season seating requests.

My point being, I will probably give up my 4 West Clubs and the requisite non-tax deductible donation and purchase 1 seat somewhere so as maintain my Panther Club membership.

 

[pittdan77]

The Elephant in the room that no one is talking about is the tax code change.

I used to donate close to $10k/yr for 4 FB and 2 BB Clubs and the Football Excellence Fund, between all of those, I received several "priority points" and a decent tax deduction.

Subsequently, the tax code changed, Pitt BB cratered, I moved 600 miles away in '17 and cancelled the BB Clubs (kept FB West Clubs) and only made the PSU game this year and Okie St. and Miami last year. I did take a few to the ACC Championship Game last month.

Today, I got an email that I can purchase "priority points" 2 for the price of 1 in lieu of a tax deduction. I think that I'm high enough up the food point chain to not have any worries about any future post season seating requests.

My point being, I will probably give up my 4 West Clubs and the requisite non-tax deductible donation and purchase 1 seat somewhere so as maintain my Panther Club membership.

I forgot about how that could change things but I would guess that problem is universal to all programs.