Don't blame Dixon, Blame the higher ups

[CrazyPaco]

I was under the impression most of the ACC money went to scholarships and coaching staffs for non-revenue sports and to some extent the coaching football staff.

Blaming Barnes is stupid. We had that town hall meeting thing...at that time.. Pitt BBall was killin it. It's taken a turn for the worse, and i'm 100000% positive it will be addressed in a severe manor if they miss the ncaa tournament this season.

That being said- go to the Wake game, cheer, and try to have a good time.
getting angry and no-showing, not cheering etc will only make things worse.

My impression (not having seen an actual breakdown) is that the bulk of new money (and we are talking like $10+ million a year over the Big East) is first going to strengthen football staff and recruiting budgets. They're also targeting more general athletic department staff (including fundraisers) because Pitt is behind there as well. It is true that they have increased the number of scholarships across the Olympic sports so that all of them will be at the NCAA max now that men's soccer is finally getting its max this fall. This is a major reason you are starting to see some of those sports turn around. But, I don't think the non-revenue sports upgrades are the bulk of where new money is going. Although, if they start hiring more people like Vidovich, maybe it will be, but you don't get too many opportunities to hire people with his pedigree.

So, they've spread it out, but I get the impression that the bulk has been going to bring the revenue sports more in line with peers in areas where Pitt has been previously deficient.

And I agree that Pitt, and Pitt certainly isn't alone, has to think about how to transition students into new ticket buying fans. Winning will certainly help more than anything though. It aways does. But Pitt has been and will be more vulnerable to the down cycles because it doesn't have the size of installed fan bases that the larger flagship schools do. That's why I'm still a major advocate of building the athletic endowments.

 

[levance2]

Barnes and Gallagher are in charge now. Not Nordy and his lap dog.

Have our competitors done significantly better?? I think Harve described the problem well. You need the grayhairs....many of whom have some extra cash...to fund today's needs, but you need their kids to fund the next era, and it may not happen.

Frankly, I don't care how successful any other schools are at it. Pitt was squandered a decade's worth of potential donors already, and even if Barnes makes improvements, it may be too late to get back many of those alums who have already fallen away.

The 2000s were the best decade of Pitt basketball in history, and thousands of kids came and went from the Zoo, where getting tickets to big games was a really big deal, and doing it with your friends mattered. Once those relationships fade, and the enthusiasm dissipates, you are going to lose a big portion of your potential donor base.

If every student had the option to buy a season ticket upon graduation that only cost, let's say, $50 to sit upstairs behind the baseline, how many do you think they might be able to sell? And once you are in the Panther Club system, and get a season ticket renewal letter, how many do you think might keep coming back? Now let's say those same kids are now 10-15 years out of school, have not attended more than a dozen games since, do not talk to any of their college friends, how many of those people are going to pay a $300 donation plus a ~$500 per seat fee? I've been out of school almost 10 years now, and that's what is happening.

If the Pitt basketball bubble has burst, and we've seen the peak of what the program can do for the next decade or two, the inability of the athletic department to capitalize on that is downright shameful. Let's hope neither turns out to be the case.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Frankly, I don't care how successful any other schools are at it. Pitt was squandered a decade's worth of potential donors already, and even if Barnes makes improvements, it may be too late to get back many of those alums who have already fallen away.

The 2000s were the best decade of Pitt basketball in history, and thousands of kids came and went from the Zoo, where getting tickets to big games was a really big deal, and doing it with your friends mattered. Once those relationships fade, and the enthusiasm dissipates, you are going to lose a big portion of your potential donor base.

If every student had the option to buy a season ticket upon graduation that only cost, let's say, $50 to sit upstairs behind the baseline, how many do you think they might be able to sell? And once you are in the Panther Club system, and get a season ticket renewal letter, how many do you think might keep coming back? Now let's say those same kids are now 10-15 years out of school, have not attended more than a dozen games since, do not talk to any of their college friends, how many of those people are going to pay a $300 donation plus a ~$500 per seat fee? I've been out of school almost 10 years now, and that's what is happening.

If the Pitt basketball bubble has burst, and we've seen the peak of what the program can do for the next decade or two, the inability of the athletic department to capitalize on that is downright shameful. Let's hope neither turns out to be the case.

Well, that would have been hard to implement when the Pete was already sold out most of the past decade beginning with year 1. Now it is not, and I do think they should look into designating some young alumni seating with discounted tickets. Heck, this is what the alumni association does for dues for young alumni. But $50 is probably too cheap, and the transition to real tickets is another major cliff that just gets punted down the road 5 years. There's no perfect solution. It would also be interesting to know what percentage of zoo members stay in the area.

 

[levance2]

Well, that would have been hard to implement when the Pete was already sold out most of the past decade beginning with year 1.

Yes, but they've been accepting full season ticket purchases with as little as a $100 donation since at least 2009. The waiting list was mythical, and that needlessly turned away many students who thought there was no point in even pursuing it. I was under this impression myself upon graduation, until a friend told me, "Yeah, you just call the ticket office and they'll sell you a season ticket today."

Ironically, as you mention, the Alumni Association does a way better job of trying to recruit members at graduation, and they had people at basketball games doing it.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Yes, but they've been accepting full season ticket purchases with as little as a $100 donation since at least 2009. The waiting list was mythical, and that needlessly turned away many students who thought there was no point in even pursuing it. I was under this impression myself upon graduation, until a friend told me, "Yeah, you just call the ticket office and they'll sell you a season ticket today."

Ironically, as you mention, the Alumni Association does a way better job of trying to recruit members at graduation, and they had people at basketball games doing it.

"Mythical" is a little over the top. It was absolutely real at one point as I know people that were on it and that it actually was functioning like a real waiting list. Remember, people that weren't donors were at the bottom of the list, so if you were willing to pay the donation, you went to the top which was usually enough to get you in...at least to the upper baseline. I know people that were eventually willing to donate and were turned down because they waited too long to make their decision when they were called on the list. I also know people that were unwilling to pay the donation and thus didn't get tickets.

The PantherClub needs to take a page out of the Alumni Association (which I don't think does that great of job either, btw, but is better than it used to be). One of the problems is that the Panther Club has been run by a skeletal crew for a long time. Hopefully, they get more staff in there.

 

[thebadby2]

I think kids are graduating with more debt now too. If you can barely feed yourself, I doubt sports is very high on the list of priorities. Took me a few years to get above water.

You think they are?

Hell, they are getting killed. The cost of higher education has been on a near vertical arc since i graduated undergrad in 1990 and law school in 1994, while the arc of the economy and starting salaries has been much shallower. My wife and I just sat down with my niece who has to pick a law school from the 20 or so (including Pitt) that have accepted her. She had a spreadheet with the tuition cost, housing cost, and amount of scholarship money she has been offered for each school. She has full tuition scholarships at 4 of the schools--even with that, she will have to loan 60k or so over 3 years to pay for everything else. At schools that aren't offering her scholarship money, the 3 year cost is anywhere from 150k to 200k.

Meanwhile, the average starting salaries for new lawyers are up only modestly-maybe 15%--from 1994 when I graduated. Yet the cost is up over 300%.

If you're lucky enough to have very well off parents, it's their burden., If not, you're in for a rough road trying to pay back 150k while making 50-60k/year. The same rule applies to undergrads--the tuition and fees are way out of whack with the economics of the real world. We are creating generations of college and grad educated people who will be buried in staggering debt most of their lives. There will be a tipping point and it will not be pretty.

 

[Pitt79]

OK I'm dumb, this was a national program 6 years ago and Jamie didn't maintain it,but, I'm dumb. OK.

It was close to being one, but for whatever reason, they could never sell it to the players they needed to sell it to.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Speaking of the PantherClub, I think they ought to partner with the Alumni Association more to offer discounted bundeled memberships. Essentially, members of either club could be offered discounted memberships to the other and they could bundle them together in marketing material.

 

[Harve74]

Thanks for your reply. I just read so much about Barton, but never anything either positive or negative about Knight. Are you saying that dixon is overriding Knight's recruiting targets?or not necessarily overriding, but prioritizing other targets? Thanks.

I have heard that Knight and Dixon prioritized different types of players. Knight had connections with the guys I mentioned. Would he have landed all of them? Who knows? I'm pretty sure he could have signed some of them. To be honest, we probably couldn't have taken all of them because they were too similar. They were mostly somewhat undersized long range shooters with less than stellar athleticism, which is not a bad description of Knight.

We signed guys like John Johnson, Epps and Newkirk and even Cam Wright, all of whom were supposed to be more athletic instead. That didn't really work out either. I realize the guys we didn't sign and did sign were not necessarily in the same classes. I'm more illustrating the type of kid we switched to pursuing.

Ultimately, the Head Coach makes those decisions but it is not exactly accurate to blame Knight for poor guard recruiting when we didn't push for the guys I listed until too late in the process.

 

[Harve74]

You think they are?

Hell, they are getting killed. The cost of higher education has been on a near vertical arc since i graduated undergrad in 1990 and law school in 1994, while the arc of the economy and starting salaries has been much shallower. My wife and I just sat down with my niece who has to pick a law school from the 20 or so (including Pitt) that have accepted her. She had a spreadheet with the tuition cost, housing cost, and amount of scholarship money she has been offered for each school. She has full tuition scholarships at 4 of the schools--even with that, she will have to loan 60k or so over 3 years to pay for everything else. At schools that aren't offering her scholarship money, the 3 year cost is anywhere from 150k to 200k.

Meanwhile, the average starting salaries for new lawyers are up only modestly-maybe 15%--from 1994 when I graduated. Yet the cost is up over 300%.

If you're lucky enough to have very well off parents, it's their burden., If not, you're in for a rough road trying to pay back 150k while making 50-60k/year. The same rule applies to undergrads--the tuition and fees are way out of whack with the economics of the real world. We are creating generations of college and grad educated people who will be buried in staggering debt most of their lives. There will be a tipping point and it will not be pretty.

VERY true post. And a HUGE problem. My daughter got a Masters in a narrow medical specialty and is gainfully employed at a wage higher than almost all of her contemporaries from a VERY reputable Western Pa college. But, she will probably never make what my BS got me, adjusted for inflation.

Many of her undergrad classmates are working at jobs not much above the poverty line. My neice has an Engineerjng BS and makes a smaller paycheck than her father, an hourly tool and die machinist.

College costs are WILDLY out of control. The education system is going to crash and crash hard. Students in many majors are graduating with degrees which will NEVER be able generate enough income to pay off their loans. It's a boondoggle.

 

[NTOP]

Speaking of the PantherClub, I think they ought to partner with the Alumni Association more to offer discounted bundeled memberships. Essentially, members of either club could be offered discounted memberships to the other and they could bundle them together in marketing material.

We started a N. Hills Pitt alumni Chapter in the early 90's. Nice folks.....but there was friction between the GPs & AA. No sense at all. Might have been the idiots before the idiot Pederson. Tried to do some joint marketing/events, etc. Not sure why the GPs were so uppity, as sports were in total disarray. The AA soon folded our chapter into the Pgh group. I thought that was dumb, too.....ignore the fastest growth area, where about 90% of the kids go to college. Fiefdoms.

 

[Piranha]

If you have a strong work ethic and a good business sense, then you are better off opening your own business or getting into sales and marketing. I know numerous people making $150k or more per year and no college debt.

 

[CrazyPaco]

basketball was nordy's baby. he didn't care about football, that is a fact. he still attends basketball games and i thank him for steve's contract and jamie's. only a moron would have made those long term commitments.

It's always interesting to see the ignorants' definition of the word fact.

 

[thebadby2]

VERY true post. And a HUGE problem. My daughter got a Masters in a narrow medical specialty and is gainfully employed at a wage higher than almost all of her contemporaries from a VERY reputable Western Pa college. But, she will probably never make what my BS got me, adjusted for inflation.

Many of her undergrad classmates are working at jobs not much above the poverty line. My neice has an Engineerjng BS and makes a smaller paycheck than her father, an hourly tool and die machinist.

College costs are WILDLY out of control. The education system is going to crash and crash hard. Students in many majors are graduating with degrees which will NEVER be able generate enough income to pay off their loans. It's a boondoggle.

Somewhere along the line America's public universities began operating like for-profit corporate concerns. Ravenous over-expansion, branch and satellite campuses that are just glorified diploma mills, massive construction and real estate acquisition binges, huge advertising and marketing campaigns and expenditures, creation of outlandish and absurd degree programs (brewing, distilling, casino management, etc.) that are designed just to take students' money without preparing them for a realistic job or career. A kid who wants to be a school teacher now has to spend well over 100k to get the degree to become one. Crazy.

IMO, part of the problem runs deeper. Just my own hypothesis, but the USA has lost its manufacturing base and there is no longer a job market for those who aren't college educated. Consequently, there has been a huge push from on high for EVERY kid to get a college degree, thereby devaluing the hell out of a college diploma. You need a 4 year degree in something, anything, to work at Enterprise Car Rentals or to manage a Subway now. A college education certainly isn't necessary to perform those kinds of jobs, but since there is a glut of degreed people looking for work out there, why wouldn't; these companies insist on a college degree? Hell, most of the waitstaff at the restaurant across the street from my office are kids who graduated from college 3-4 years ago, had low paying entry level jobs, couldn't pay the bills and took on waitressing and bartending at a good restaurant just to get by. One of the girls has a masters in biology for chrissakes. She's 4 years out of school.

As Judge Smails famously said, the world needs ditch diggers too. The problem is, there are very few ditch digging jobs, and now you need a 4 year degree or better to get one.

I think the end game is public universities are going to force governmental regulation on themselves in much the same way banks and financial institutions did following the 1929 crash. What is happening now cannot sustain. The increase of college tuition and fees is so far out of whack with every other financial and economic measure it's beyond belief.

 

[Saboteur]

The points you and zoomer make are VERY relevant. We have an aging fanbase. I'm in the same range as you two and when I look around at Heinz or the Pete, it looks like maybe one third of the fans are in or approaching our age group -or even older. We're simply not going to be coming to games much longer, whether we want to or not.

Going to every game possible was once my passion. It has simply become less important. My retirement income will let me continue to donate and attend if I wish, but the time is rapidly approaching when I will no longer wish to make that 50 mile drive regularly

Pitt is not alone in this problem. Empty seats abound at most schools these days. The BabyBoomers are aging. The Greatest Generation is mostly gone or sedentary. The Millenials are bured in student debt. I suspect colleges are going to need a new model for funding athletics besides football and basketball attendence.

But, Pitt is probably among those in the worst shape. We live in a Northern urban area with horrible demographics, the smallest metropolitan area with 3 major league sports franchises, one of which is the dominant pro team in the region, and a university with a very mediocre athletic history and three successful collegiate teams within a 2 1/2 hour drive.

Given all of those factors, I suspect Dr. Gallagher and AD Barnes have about as much chance of long term athletic and financial success as Don Quixote v. The Windmill.

Other than that Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?

 

[Saboteur]

Somewhere along the line America's public universities began operating like for-profit corporate concerns. Ravenous over-expansion, branch and satellite campuses that are just glorified diploma mills, massive construction and real estate acquisition binges, huge advertising and marketing campaigns and expenditures, creation of outlandish and absurd degree programs (brewing, distilling, casino management, etc.) that are designed just to take students' money without preparing them for a realistic job or career. A kid who wants to be a school teacher now has to spend well over 100k to get the degree to become one. Crazy.

IMO, part of the problem runs deeper. Just my own hypothesis, but the USA has lost its manufacturing base and there is no longer a job market for those who aren't college educated. Consequently, there has been a huge push from on high for EVERY kid to get a college degree, thereby devaluing the hell out of a college diploma. You need a 4 year degree in something, anything, to work at Enterprise Car Rentals or to manage a Subway now. A college education certainly isn't necessary to perform those kinds of jobs, but since there is a glut of degreed people looking for work out there, why wouldn't; these companies insist on a college degree? Hell, most of the waitstaff at the restaurant across the street from my office are kids who graduated from college 3-4 years ago, had low paying entry level jobs, couldn't pay the bills and took on waitressing and bartending at a good restaurant just to get by. One of the girls has a masters in biology for chrissakes. She's 4 years out of school.

As Judge Smails famously said, the world needs ditch diggers too. The problem is, there are very few ditch digging jobs, and now you need a 4 year degree or better to get one.

I think the end game is public universities are going to force governmental regulation on themselves in much the same way banks and financial institutions did following the 1929 crash. What is happening now cannot sustain. The increase of college tuition and fees is so far out of whack with every other financial and economic measure it's beyond belief.

Actually there are plenty of jobs for those without a college degree. But too many people have degrees with no skills. Technical college and their grads are doing quite well, but there are far too few of them.

 

[Harve74]

Actually there are plenty of jobs for those without a college degree. But too many people have degrees with no skills. Technical college and their grads are doing quite well, but there are far too few of them.

There ARE technician/skilled worker jobs available but not in the numbers that an economy can be built on them. Machinists, HVAC technicians, plumbers etc. make a decent living. But, many of those jobs require technical training now to acquire those skills.

The well-paying manufacturing jobs have all but vanished. I disagree with almost everything Mr. Obama wanted but his concept of revising the higher education system by basically eliminating the first two years of 4-year schools and replacing them with almost universal cheap junior colleges has some merit.

A major reorganization of the education system from elementary schools to graduate education is needed. There has to be more involvement by industry and more courses of study have to be tailored towards actual marketable skills, not just meaningless degrees. Tens of thousands of graduates are un-or under-employed and are buried under crippling debt.

It is a competitive global market. Our future and the future of our children demands an end to institutions of higher education milking hundreds of thousands of dollars from their students and putting them on the streets with no marketable skills.

 

[levance2]

Actually there are plenty of jobs for those without a college degree. But too many people have degrees with no skills. Technical college and their grads are doing quite well, but there are far too few of them.

Yes, but as badby said, even the president comes out and says every kid should go to college. It is really stigmatized to NOT get a degree. People think they are admitting idiocy to get anything less.

 

[NTOP]

Somewhere along the line America's public universities began operating like for-profit corporate concerns. Ravenous over-expansion, branch and satellite campuses that are just glorified diploma mills, massive construction and real estate acquisition binges, huge advertising and marketing campaigns and expenditures, creation of outlandish and absurd degree programs (brewing, distilling, casino management, etc.) that are designed just to take students' money without preparing them for a realistic job or career. A kid who wants to be a school teacher now has to spend well over 100k to get the degree to become one. Crazy.

IMO, part of the problem runs deeper. Just my own hypothesis, but the USA has lost its manufacturing base and there is no longer a job market for those who aren't college educated. Consequently, there has been a huge push from on high for EVERY kid to get a college degree, thereby devaluing the hell out of a college diploma. You need a 4 year degree in something, anything, to work at Enterprise Car Rentals or to manage a Subway now. A college education certainly isn't necessary to perform those kinds of jobs, but since there is a glut of degreed people looking for work out there, why wouldn't; these companies insist on a college degree? Hell, most of the waitstaff at the restaurant across the street from my office are kids who graduated from college 3-4 years ago, had low paying entry level jobs, couldn't pay the bills and took on waitressing and bartending at a good restaurant just to get by. One of the girls has a masters in biology for chrissakes. She's 4 years out of school.

As Judge Smails famously said, the world needs ditch diggers too. The problem is, there are very few ditch digging jobs, and now you need a 4 year degree or better to get one.

I think the end game is public universities are going to force governmental regulation on themselves in much the same way banks and financial institutions did following the 1929 crash. What is happening now cannot sustain. The increase of college tuition and fees is so far out of whack with every other financial and economic measure it's beyond belief.

There are PLENTY of good jobs begging to be filled. Most are in the trades, but kids and parents have been brainwashed by the elbow-patch clowns into believing that only college grads succeed. Trade union membership has aged in a big way, but the union bosses don't care to run training programs...they're on cruise control to 65. Nothing wrong with being a plumber, electrician, carpenter, etc.

 

[pitt1379]

It's always interesting to see the ignorants' definition of the word fact.

It's a fact, sorry but it is. 2022-2023. Last year made $3.2 million and its going up every year till the 2022-2023 season.

 

[Saboteur]

Yes, but as badby said, even the president comes out and says every kid should go to college. It is really stigmatized to NOT get a degree. People think they are admitting idiocy to get anything less.

You are right about that....and I am disappointed the president has this point of view. But my limited experience with the white House staff (and yes, I have first hand experience) is that the staff is overpopulated by academics and precious few who are tasked with creating. In short, no dirt under their nails and contempt of sorts for those who do. As if we all should think great thoughts for a living.

 

[thebadby2]

,

There are PLENTY of good jobs begging to be filled. Most are in the trades, but kids and parents have been brainwashed by the elbow-patch clowns into believing that only college grads succeed. Trade union membership has aged in a big way, but the union bosses don't care to run training programs...they're on cruise control to 65. Nothing wrong with being a plumber, electrician, carpenter, etc.

I don't know about "plenty" of good jobs......but I agree that there is zero effort to steer kids into those kinds of careers anymore, those are essential jobs that need to be filled, and there is certainly a societal stigma attached to those who pursue careers in the trades.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Let's be real...
Those jobs require relocation mostly. And for jobs with out much security.

Which is less feasible for folks who are living pay check to paycheck, especially with families to move away from their support systems.

Trade schools are fine options for plenty.

The basic rule for determining if you are ready for college should be.. Fill in the blank:
I want to be a/an........

If you can't answer that in less than two words, don't go to college until you can.. And try to find work until you can.

 

[Saboteur]

Let's be real...
Those jobs require relocation mostly. And for jobs with out much security.

Which is less feasible for folks who are living pay check to paycheck, especially with families to move away from their support systems.

Trade schools are fine options for plenty.

The basic rule for determining if you are ready for college should be.. Fill in the blank:
I want to be a/an........

If you can't answer that in less than two words, don't go to college until you can.. And try to find work until you can.

A "kept man"

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

A "kept man"

Hey... Wife and I moved 500+ away from our families...
Both graduated in demand Pharmacist jobs and could pick and choose where to go...
We are more the exception to the rule.

 

[UPitt '89]

I'm telling you, if they never did that stupid reseating plan in 2006, they'd have been better able to withstand down years like the last few.

They chased away their most loyal customers, who maybe didn't have the means to pay hundreds more per year - in order to open up spots to bigger donors who are fairweather fans and only show up for the marquee games.

It was the same thing that Howard Baldwin did to the Penguins fan base in the late 90s and early 2000s. Priced out the most rabid fans that would go to every game in order to sell more corporate seats. That's fine when you're winning and you make an extra buck in the short term..... but as soon as a down cycle comes, the corporate seats go unused and the arena is empty.

The Penguins learned their lesson and are now in a better position to ride out down years than they were in the early 2000s.

Jeff Long's folly chased out the loyal customers, replaced them with corporate customer who donate more, and those fairweather corporate customers have stopped showing up and their tickets are going unused. The loyal customers who bought into the Pete when it opened, and who went to every game regardless of the opponent, are now watching at home.

 

[thebadby2]

Hey... Wife and I moved 500+ away from our families...
Both graduated in demand Pharmacist jobs and could pick and choose where to go...
We are more the exception to the rule.

thought you were an engineer?

Being a pharmacist, if this season gets any worse, you can always resort to getting high on your own supply.....

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

thought you were an engineer?

Being a pharmacist, if this season gets any worse, you can always resort to getting high on your own supply.....

Joe is an engineer, I believe.

C'mon you haven't read all the "cracks" about me being a chemist or pill pusher?

Of course, what I actually do is supply chain management for a healthsystem ...but, jokes about data analytics and Access queries, inventory turn rates and and stock out rates aren't as fun.

 

[Harve74]

I'm telling you, if they never did that stupid reseating plan in 2006, they'd have been better able to withstand down years like the last few.

They chased away their most loyal customers, who maybe didn't have the means to pay hundreds more per year - in order to open up spots to bigger donors who are fairweather fans and only show up for the marquee games.

It was the same thing that Howard Baldwin did to the Penguins fan base in the late 90s and early 2000s. Priced out the most rabid fans that would go to every game in order to sell more corporate seats. That's fine when you're winning and you make an extra buck in the short term..... but as soon as a down cycle comes, the corporate seats go unused and the arena is empty.

The Penguins learned their lesson and are now in a better position to ride out down years than they were in the early 2000s.

Jeff Long's folly chased out the loyal customers, replaced them with corporate customer who donate more, and those fairweather corporate customers have stopped showing up and their tickets are going unused. The loyal customers who bought into the Pete when it opened, and who went to every game regardless of the opponent, are now watching at home.

I made EXACTLY the same arguments at the time and later. I didn't like it then or now. There are only so many real basketball fans in Pittsburgh. There are a lot of fair weather, band-wagon jumpers who have walked away.

But, as Souf pointed out to me, Pitt athletics badly lagged behind our competitors in donations. The donation requirements and priority point seating system increased booster club membership by thousands and donations by over $3MM. We still lag, but donation have nearly tripled since before the requirement.

The fiction of the Waiting List kept demand and sell-outs high for years. There is an argument that it became counter-productive because Zoo graduates and Millenials believed they could not get tickets long after demand began dropping, but the "Waiting List" and Priority Points system marketing added millions to Pitt's athletic programs.

I had and have more problems with reseating much of the arena every year, but excluding the club seats from that process. My group, which also sits together in football, started off with 9 seats together and through some guys simply forgetting to check the "keep my seats" box, we are now spread around the Pete in three different locations.

The professionalism, helpfulness and even competence of the Ticket Department reps can vary considerably, though it HAS made great strides in recent years. In the past, I've had my ticket application enclosed in a mailing to a guy in Slippery Rock and some guy's Parking Pass coupons shipped with my tickets. One year when I went in to place my order in person to resolve some minor issue, the interns on site were so confused I ended up explaining the process to them and some other customers.

I hate it but it was necessary. We really have to remember, nobody expected to sell out the Pete. In the later Evans years and the Williard years, the Fieldhouse was half-empty and it held about half the Pete's capacity.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

i'd also say..I'm fairly confident attendance would be bad in the lean years, even if everything was as it was before...
because that's what fans do.
See football attendance at Pitt for example, despite no reseating.

 

[eastcoasthoops]

I made EXACTLY the same arguments at the time and later. I didn't like it then or now. There are only so many real basketball fans in Pittsburgh. There are a lot of fair weather, band-wagon jumpers who have walked away.

But, as Souf pointed out to me, Pitt athletics badly lagged behind our competitors in donations. The donation requirements and priority point seating system increased booster club membership by thousands and donations by over $3MM. We still lag, but donation have nearly tripled since before the requirement.

The fiction of the Waiting List kept demand and sell-outs high for years. There is an argument that it became counter-productive because Zoo graduates and Millenials believed they could not get tickets long after demand began dropping, but the "Waiting List" and Priority Points system marketing added millions to Pitt's athletic programs.

I had and have more problems with reseating much of the arena every year, but excluding the club seats from that process. My group, which also sits together in football, started off with 9 seats together and through some guys simply forgetting to check the "keep my seats" box, we are now spread around the Pete in three different locations.

The professionalism, helpfulness and even competence of the Ticket Department reps can vary considerably, though it HAS made great strides in recent years. In the past, I've had my ticket application enclosed in a mailing to a guy in Slippery Rock and some guy's Parking Pass coupons shipped with my tickets. One year when I went in to place my order in person to resolve some minor issue, the interns on site were so confused I ended up explaining the process to them and some other customers.

I hate it but it was necessary. We really have to remember, nobody expected to sell out the Pete. In the later Evans years and the Williard years, the Fieldhouse was half-empty and it held about half the Pete's capacity.

Funny you say that, I quipped last night that if the same crowd had been at Fitzgerald, the place would have been near capacity. Last night was evidence of both how far the program has come and how much further it has to go.

 

[KiwiJeff]

Joe is an engineer, I believe.

C'mon you haven't read all the "cracks" about me being a chemist or pill pusher?

Of course, what I actually do is supply chain management for a healthsystem ...but, jokes about data analytics and Access queries, inventory turn rates and and stock out rates aren't as fun.

We have the same job, different industry.

 

[Saboteur]

Hey... Wife and I moved 500+ away from our families...
Both graduated in demand Pharmacist jobs and could pick and choose where to go...
We are more the exception to the rule.

Good for you guys......wise move.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Joe is an engineer, I believe.

He is.

 

[TIGER-PAUL]

The attendance is a concern. People are noticing. Yeah its Pittsburgh, but Pitt bb is supposed to be a different animal. Especially after a solid decade run. Hopefully these last 2 games get a little of it back.

 

[PHATWOOD]

VERY true post. And a HUGE problem. My daughter got a Masters in a narrow medical specialty and is gainfully employed at a wage higher than almost all of her contemporaries from a VERY reputable Western Pa college. But, she will probably never make what my BS got me, adjusted for inflation.

Many of her undergrad classmates are working at jobs not much above the poverty line. My neice has an Engineerjng BS and makes a smaller paycheck than her father, an hourly tool and die machinist.

College costs are WILDLY out of control. The education system is going to crash and crash hard. Students in many majors are graduating with degrees which will NEVER be able generate enough income to pay off their loans. It's a boondoggle.

This is very true. I believe there's a tipping point. The problem is the parents and their children who don't really have a clue what they want to be in the future but dammit they KNOW they have to go get that four year degree in SOMETHING.

Somewhere along the line America's public universities began operating like for-profit corporate concerns. Ravenous over-expansion, branch and satellite campuses that are just glorified diploma mills, massive construction and real estate acquisition binges, huge advertising and marketing campaigns and expenditures, creation of outlandish and absurd degree programs (brewing, distilling, casino management, etc.) that are designed just to take students' money without preparing them for a realistic job or career. A kid who wants to be a school teacher now has to spend well over 100k to get the degree to become one. Crazy.

IMO, part of the problem runs deeper. Just my own hypothesis, but the USA has lost its manufacturing base and there is no longer a job market for those who aren't college educated. Consequently, there has been a huge push from on high for EVERY kid to get a college degree, thereby devaluing the hell out of a college diploma. You need a 4 year degree in something, anything, to work at Enterprise Car Rentals or to manage a Subway now. A college education certainly isn't necessary to perform those kinds of jobs, but since there is a glut of degreed people looking for work out there, why wouldn't; these companies insist on a college degree? Hell, most of the waitstaff at the restaurant across the street from my office are kids who graduated from college 3-4 years ago, had low paying entry level jobs, couldn't pay the bills and took on waitressing and bartending at a good restaurant just to get by. One of the girls has a masters in biology for chrissakes. She's 4 years out of school.

As Judge Smails famously said, the world needs ditch diggers too. The problem is, there are very few ditch digging jobs, and now you need a 4 year degree or better to get one.

I think the end game is public universities are going to force governmental regulation on themselves in much the same way banks and financial institutions did following the 1929 crash. What is happening now cannot sustain. The increase of college tuition and fees is so far out of whack with every other financial and economic measure it's beyond belief.

There is so much truth in the point about the de-valuing of college degrees. I work in a field that requires a certain skill set - all of it can be learned without going to college. It's technical, it's somewhat artistic, but I work side by side every day with people who have earned masters in the field and those who just started working out of high school. I only went for a degree as an insurance policy for the future, for the very reason stated above, "job requires a four year degree".

And we all know that we graduated with people who literally were too stupid, high, drunk, or lazy to have learned a single damn thing. But they paid a 100K or more for that piece of paper that says they're employable.

 

[Black_Man_Panther]

But, as Souf pointed out to me, Pitt athletics badly lagged behind our competitors in donations.

I say it every chance I get. I'm like #1200 on the donor chain - which is a f'n total disgrace. Not to me, but those 1199 others. I don't think about 1200+.

I didn't even go to Pitt. I went to Ohio State. You Pitt grads are a disgrace!

 

[KiwiJeff]

I say it every chance I get. I'm like #1200 on the donor chain - which is a f'n total disgrace. Not to me, but those 1199 others. I don't think about 1200+.

I didn't even go to Pitt. I went to Ohio State. You Pitt grads are a disgrace!

This is partly why we can't compete with the big boys. We want prime rib on a spam budget.

 

[Harve74]

This is very true. I believe there's a tipping point. The problem is the parents and their children who don't really have a clue what they want to be in the future but dammit they KNOW they have to go get that four year degree in SOMETHING.


There is so much truth in the point about the de-valuing of college degrees. I work in a field that requires a certain skill set - all of it can be learned without going to college. It's technical, it's somewhat artistic, but I work side by side every day with people who have earned masters in the field and those who just started working out of high school. I only went for a degree as an insurance policy for the future, for the very reason stated above, "job requires a four year degree".

And we all know that we graduated with people who literally were too stupid, high, drunk, or lazy to have learned a single damn thing. But they paid a 100K or more for that piece of paper that says they're employable.

How many 18 year olds REALLY know what they want to do with their life? I know I didn't. I was into my second grad program until I really did.

Arguably, college should be delayed for an awful lot of people. The universal junior college idea I mentioned earlier might be a meaningful intermediate reform and allow many to find their way, and save $50K or so.

 

[KiwiJeff]

How many 18 year olds REALLY know what they want to do with their life? I know I didn't. I was into my second grad program until I really did.

Arguably, college shoud be delayed for an awful lot of people. The universal junior college idea I mentioned earlier might be a meaningful intermediate reform and allow many to find their way, and save $50K or so.

many people end up in careers they didn't even have a degree for. Not that this a bad thing.