Birch was every bit as soft as the guys they have now.
Don't blame Dixon, Blame the higher ups
- Thread starter zoomer
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Birch was every bit as soft as the guys they have now.
true, but we can point to that fiasco as the beginning of the end
Birch was MWC Defensive Player of the Year while at UNLV. Birch, Zanna and Patterson would have been one of the top three front courts in the country, maybe the best, in 2013-14 had it materialized. Even without him that was a fun Pitt team to watch. Had Johnson not gotten hurt that team would have been even better.
Its not a destination program anymore. After the 208-9 seasons Dixon did not cash in on the momentum that he and the team had built. With the facilities on hand and the fan base he had it should have been very doable.
Agreed, it's back to the future - the program has to be rebuilt. The reason for all the turnovers today was caused by the talent gap; UNC's team was just quicker and more athletic, and forced Pitt into turnovers.
2 time MWC Defensive Player of the Year to be exact.
And you know the position he played, yep that's right center. The psoition he didn't want to play here. This was the biggest reason he left.
Why do Pitt fans always want to look backwards?
Herrion was not particularly good as a recruiter, missing or mis-evaluating a number of prospects. He failed twice as a head coach. He landed Dante Taylor, who proved to be over-rated. He also thought Malcolm Gilbert was worth a scholarship and that Durand Johnson was a better shooter than Ashton Gibbs. Both beliefs proved incorrect.
He is not a younger, more energetic recruiter type compared to Dixon. He's 48 vs Jamie's 50. He left the program and while he wanted to come back, it's doubtful he'd have been content to return in a position under Brandin.
Herrion shares one similar advantage over other assistants here with Slice. Herrion and Slice both had a close relationship with our blogger, Doke, and frequently leaked information through him. In return, both have had plenty of favorable publicity from Doke and enjoy a somewhat inflated reputtion among many of our fans.
Hey, Smoke proably wouldn't have been my choice as a lead recruiter. But, B-Man really likes him and his potential. I didn't think Pitt was going to sign those Family 5-stars no matter who we had recruitng them. We'll see if he can land either of the 2017 Detroit bigs. If we don't see more results than just Manigault soon, we should probably start to look elsewhere. But, not right now. We're pretty deeply into the groundwork for the 2017 class. This really isn't the time to "change horses in mid-stream."
Jamie went after Kenny Johnson who had been at Maryland, I think and he was reportedly ready to sign here but got a better offer from Louisville at the last minute. He was a much better candidate than Rasheen Davis, who was relatively equivlent to Smoke, except from NYC instead of Detroit.
One other reason i gave up my tickets was, After a year and a half of Cancer treatments and missing a full season due to not having the strength to go. I came to relize that i didn't miss it anymore. Maybe it was the Cancer or turning 60. But i still watch but just don't see the support for the program as it should be.
What does Knight bring? Besides being a former Pitt player, what does he bring? The guard play isn't good, and the guard recruiting isn't good. The higher Knight has risen in the coaching line, the worse Pitt has become. I am asking honestly-what does he bring to the team?
Thanks.
Remember Pitt was getting only 3.5 mil from the Big east and they were in the top half of asst salarys and recruiting budgets. Now they are getting close to 19 mil a year and they are in the bottom half.WHY, were's the money going
Actually, we were in the bottom half of the BE in asst. salaries and recruiting budgets too. Pretty sure the total amounts then and now were several million higher than you list but your point is correct. I think we get somewhere between $10-12 million more now.
Since full cost of attendence stipends started, that takes a million or two. The Football budget has increased and clearly, with the empty seats, receipts in both football and hoops are down.
Mostly, the money goes to support and upgrade the non-profit sports. We will finally come close to fully funding the allowed number of scholarships in those programs. But, even with the ACC money, we still had to subsidize the Athletic Department by something like $7.3MM last year.
Our Athletic Budget fairly recently was about $50MM but the most recnt figure I saw was over $60MM. EVERYTHING related to colleges is alwys getting more expensive. It's a never-ending "Keeping up with the Jone's" game, with new and better facilities constantly needing upgrades to "stay competitive."
The more money that is available, the more money is spent. Harbaugh's staff at Michigsn reportedly spent over $136,000 on private jets for recruiting, IN THE LAST 5 DAYS of this past recruiting period.
Things like that are what I point to when I say college sports are not a level playing field. This is why I believe, much to many folks anguish, that the good ole days may just remain that. I think the new administration can get us closer, but the divide between elite and Pitt in both FB and BB is so great, the additional financial support and smaller fan base just won't make up that gap. If I get a $10,000 raise, I am closer to the CEO's salary, but not really.
Herrion was 80-38 at College of Charleston. You forgot to mention he was the lead on Patterson, J. Dixon, and Zanna. How did we do when he was in the #1 chair?
That's really the point, Kiwi. No matter what Pitt thinks it can spend on football and basketball, we will never be able to really compete on a level playing field with the true "blue bloods" who throw around huge amounts of money at coaches and programs while having massive fan support and financial backing. Pitt just doesn't have that and won't.
Realistically, in basketball, our best years going forward will be around 25 wins and most years will be around 20 - 22, as long as we have a decent coach. In football, an 8 win season will be a very good season with an occasional 9 win season thrown in there when the schedule is weaker. Same thing applies to the coaching. It will be very easy to drop off in both sports if we would hire some bargain coach who can't back up what he says. We've been doing that in football until recently, and hopefully Narduzzi is the real thing now. Those are our leveling points considering the financial obstacles.
I hope you're doing well, zoomer. Life and its challenges tends to give us perspective about stuff that is nice to have but not really that important. I wish you well.
I'm a few years over 60 now and have watched friends and relatives that are my age get very sick and pass away. I am very blessed so far that I am healthy, as far as I know and that my doctor tells me, so I can still work and navigate as I've always done. But you're right....the Pitt games are nice to watch but they just don't seem to have the importance they had before I experienced life. I'm sure if I had to endure what you did, I would quickly come to the same conclusion you did about this whole thing. As I approach retirement, I am seriously considering terminating my Panther Club membership and my season's tickets to both football and basketball. Who needs it, other than Pitt, and they aren't a priority when I retire. It's so easy to get tickets to both if you just look, and they are cheap. It's a choice that will have to be made. You made the right choice.
How is Knight doing at Pitt? That is the point of my question. No one wants to talk about it. I really would like to know from someone who might know. Our guards stink. Is he their primary coach? Is he a good recruiter? Is he a good coach? Is it just coincidence that Pitt is much worse with him in the top assistant role?
Only a few ACC bb teams spend more than Pitt overall. The hc salary is near the ncaa top10. Blaming the bb budget as being cheap is folly.
I'm not an insider. I don't spend time with the team. And, the secrecy around the team prevents us from knowing exactly what anyone does.
What I can tell you is a little bit about the dynamics of the team only a couple seasons back, when te ProAm was held at Greentree and most of the team basically sat intermixed with us fans.
At that time, Knight was the confidant or big brother to the players. They congregated around him and he was at the center of their talk abd banter. Basically, he was te only young black guy on the staff and they listened to him.
Today, Smoke and Ontario Lett are there too, so that impact may be diluted. As the #1 assistant, his role has changed a bit too. Since the linksge with the tough NYC/NJ kids has been broken, BK pretty much has been the linkage. He has cracked the whip a bit, trying to instill his intensity in this generation of players. Personally, I felt Josh Newkirk could not respond to BK's tough love, but wilted under it.
I'm not as convinced our guard play has been so bad as much as we have just wanted something DIFFERENT from our guards than many of our fans expect. We utilized Ramon and Ashton almost solely as spot up or curl off a screen shooters.
Since Krauser, our point guards rarely attack the rim. We've had off-guards do that instead, Brad in particular. Our PG's are mainly asked to run the offense and shoot the open trey. The offense has usually been in the Top 25-50 at worst following
In terms of recruiting, BK has been "on" several guys from near his Playaz roots who could have helped us but we never hotly pursued, or not until it was too late. These go back to Sterling Gibbs, Brandin's cousin Myles Davis up to TJ Gibbs and Myles Powell in the 2016 class. I think BK could have landed all or at least most of them, but we always decided to go a different way.
Maybe Knight should go. Maybe not. It is pretty clear at this point that Pederson forcing Dixon to fire Sandle and hire Slice again was an unmitigated disaster. We lost our best scout and strategist and gained....Tyrone Haughton. I'mnot sure why nother change dictated from the top down would be much better.
Knight or Barton are easy targets for those who want a shake-up. But, I'm pretty sure there aren't 5 guys on this board who actually KNOW enough about what either does to assess whether they are doing a good job or not. Virtually everybody was outraged that Pederson fired Wanny because Wanny resisted SP meddling in his coaching staff but now a large portion of our fans want the new AD to micromanage Dixon's staff. A little double standard there, huh?
Dixon is going to sink or swim with his program. Unless we plan to hire one of his assistants to replace him, he might as well have his own choices around him while he succeeds or fails.
The points you and zoomer make are VERY relevant. We have an aging fanbase. I'm in the same range as you two and when I look around at Heinz or the Pete, it looks like maybe one third of the fans are in or approaching our age group -or even older. We're simply not going to be coming to games much longer, whether we want to or not.
Going to every game possible was once my passion. It has simply become less important. My retirement income will let me continue to donate and attend if I wish, but the time is rapidly approaching when I will no longer wish to make that 50 mile drive regularly
Pitt is not alone in this problem. Empty seats abound at most schools these days. The BabyBoomers are aging. The Greatest Generation is mostly gone or sedentary. The Millenials are bured in student debt. I suspect colleges are going to need a new model for funding athletics besides football and basketball attendence.
But, Pitt is probably among those in the worst shape. We live in a Northern urban area with horrible demographics, the smallest metropolitan area with 3 major league sports franchises, one of which is the dominant pro team in the region, and a university with a very mediocre athletic history and three successful collegiate teams within a 2 1/2 hour drive.
Given all of those factors, I suspect Dr. Gallagher and AD Barnes have about as much chance of long term athletic and financial success as Don Quixote v. The Windmill.
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Not everybody Herrion signed was a bust. Patterson and Zanna WERE very good, by their 5th years in the program. Prior to that, both were widely slammed by our fanbase.
Most of our critics regularly slam Dixon's redshirting, which gave those two time to mature and excell their final year. They expect immediate success and gratification.
Those two guys were willing to work and improve. Many other kids recruited in the same era were not. The program was largely built upon guys who stayed and got better, not 5-star instant successes.
Are Cam Johnson and Ryan Luther going to follow the Patterson/Zanna progression or the Durand Johnson/Malcolm Gibert path?
Recycling coaches rarely works.
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I do believe you're right, Harve. The Pitt fanbase is definitely aging. I look around at The Pete and outside of The Zoo, the majority of the fans there are over the age of 50, many over 60. Many have the resources to support Pitt well, but many choose not to for various reasons. And the younger fans, as you said, have that student debt hanging over their heads. When they graduate, paying for Pitt tickets won't be high on their list of discretionary spending items. Pitt fandom will be shrinking in the coming years, and not necessarily because of poor results on the field or court.
Barnes and Gallagher, in spite of some grandiose plans and words, will find it very difficult to keep these 2 major sports financially viable while fielding successful teams. I have to agree with you on that one. This isn't the old Pitt of the 70's and 80's. The Pitt of the future may not be recognizable to some of us soon, and not because we are getting older and losing our memories.
Barnes and Gallagher, in spite of some grandiose plans and words, will find it very difficult to keep these 2 major sports financially viable while fielding successful teams. I have to agree with you on that one. This isn't the old Pitt of the 70's and 80's. The Pitt of the future may not be recognizable to some of us soon, and not because we are getting older and losing our memories.
There is no single reason but a compilation of events over the years that put us where we are.
We used to be able to take middling Centers and turn them into pretty effective fives. That no longer happens.
Say what you will, but we were at our best when we had PGs who were bad asses. Knight, Krauser and Fields.
We used to be able to take middling Centers and turn them into pretty effective fives. That no longer happens.
Say what you will, but we were at our best when we had PGs who were bad asses. Knight, Krauser and Fields.
The Oakland Zoo has been the most passionate student fan base we have ever had at Pitt. It has been going on for 15 years. Do u negative nancies feel some of these students as they get older will attend and contribute to the program? I think we will see more from them simply based on numbers and passion they had while they were here. You just have to recruit their donations as they get older.
People have shown the numbers. Pitt has done an abysmal job of converting recent students (i.e., Zoo alums) into donors.
Almost every season you can point to a good point guard, you could also point to a good center. If you swap in Robinson for Ramon or Fields in 07 or 08, results are probably very similar. If you swap Maia in for McGhee, Gray, Troutman, Taft, etc., those teams struggle greatly.
Pitt has basically played without a competent center since McGhee graduated. Zanna and Young have done a decent job, for the most part, out of position, but that's just covering up the hole.
I was under the impression most of the ACC money went to scholarships and coaching staffs for non-revenue sports and to some extent the coaching football staff.
Blaming Barnes is stupid. We had that town hall meeting thing...at that time.. Pitt BBall was killin it. It's taken a turn for the worse, and i'm 100000% positive it will be addressed in a severe manor if they miss the ncaa tournament this season.
That being said- go to the Wake game, cheer, and try to have a good time.
getting angry and no-showing, not cheering etc will only make things worse.
Blaming Barnes is stupid. We had that town hall meeting thing...at that time.. Pitt BBall was killin it. It's taken a turn for the worse, and i'm 100000% positive it will be addressed in a severe manor if they miss the ncaa tournament this season.
That being said- go to the Wake game, cheer, and try to have a good time.
getting angry and no-showing, not cheering etc will only make things worse.
Thanks for your reply. I just read so much about Barton, but never anything either positive or negative about Knight. Are you saying that dixon is overriding Knight's recruiting targets?or not necessarily overriding, but prioritizing other targets? Thanks.
Wait I thought basketball was their baby? Now it's not? I can't keep up with the ridiculous narratives on this board
Have our competitors done significantly better?? I think Harve described the problem well. You need the grayhairs....many of whom have some extra cash...to fund today's needs, but you need their kids to fund the next era, and it may not happen. All you need is a smart TV, or zillions of Stubhub Priority Points and your need is fulfilled. The current students, if they've worked hard and get a bit of luck, will spend the next 10 years getting established, the following 20 or so raising & educating THEIR kids, and the balance enjoying their lifestyle, which may not include buying tickets to ANY sporting event.
I've had season tix since 1982.......didn't need them before that. Just started to think about not renewing....not because of the current poor results....but the cost and hassle of attendance. I can see all the games at home, and contribute more to the University. It's becoming attractive. Not sure, yet.
Lots of wishful thinking here. I don't doubt their intentions, just not so sure the $$ will be all that larger.
I think kids are graduating with more debt now too. If you can barely feed yourself, I doubt sports is very high on the list of priorities. Took me a few years to get above water.
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