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I'm with Zeise...

My point is more that I think it’s ridiculous to have hope when you’re scraping the barrel for a 2nd tier unproven coach.

I’m not even talking about elevating the program — that had no chance of happening.

Why? They did it with howland...did it with Dixon. Barnes opened the door for Dixon to leave, then hired a clear downgrade with no upside.

Howland was placed here by adidas and left us as quickly as he could.

We lucked in to Dixon after whiffing on Prosser and having no other options.

I don’t see any reason to think Sonny Vaccaro is going to do us another solid and I don’t think relying on another Jamie Dixon situation is a fruitful plan.
 
I do believe he probably deserves more respect. But I also believe he’s only an ok coach. There have been some heavy hitters who praise his offensive abilities. So who the hell am I to question that. His history isn’t terrible but I always look at his final Vandy team (his overall isn’t overwhelming either). NBA talent for at least 2 guys and a marginal 3rd I believe. Limped in to the play in game and got sent home.

And I still think the way this was handled by Barnes caused some of this. His initial presser made everyone seem optimistic then we had a retread dud dropped in our laps. Nobody will ever convince me he was an overall upgrade in any way shape or form. Unless of course he’s around long enough to prove me wrong (and I won’t be unhappy if he does).
 
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Dana Altman?

That is the only thing we can hope for.

I'm not an expert on his background, but it looks like he did a mediocre to bad job at K-State (19-37 over 4 years) then dropped down to Creighton where he had a resurgence, and his overall conference record there was 178-107. So I'd say that is a horrible comparison to Stallings who was 138-142 in 17 seasons at Vanderbilt.

Altman might not have been an exciting hire, but he'd taken a mid-major to 13 straight postseasons. He also took Oregon to the CBI, NIT, and NCAA tournaments his first three seasons, which is clearly not going to happen here.
 
Crean has a history of deep runs at two programs .
That’s the appeal.

He’s superior to Stallings in every way
We could never afford Crean. Not his wage either. The cost of rebuilding doorways to get his head thru would be astronomical.
 
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paul zeise called all of you guys "looney message board fan boys." Are you guys gonna take that? what's the matter with you guys? Whats the world coming to?

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Zeise is not good with basketball period. And he goes back and forth on Twitter from praise to criticism of Stallings.
 
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I'm not an expert on his background, but it looks like he did a mediocre to bad job at K-State (19-37 over 4 years) then dropped down to Creighton where he had a resurgence, and his overall conference record there was 178-107. So I'd say that is a horrible comparison to Stallings who was 138-142 in 17 seasons at Vanderbilt.

Altman might not have been an exciting hire, but he'd taken a mid-major to 13 straight postseasons. He also took Oregon to the CBI, NIT, and NCAA tournaments his first three seasons, which is clearly not going to happen here.

And Altman has Nike/Phil Knight.
 
Zeise is not good with basketball period. And he goes back and forth on Twitter from praise to criticism of Stallings.
I actually like his radio show. he always picks weird topics, far away from the typical yinzer topics of steelers or penguins. it's a good break, sorely needed in this market, especially since there is a good chance that cook, poni and morning show guys already beat the topic of the day to death by the time his show comes on..
 
He’s earned it more than any other candidate we bring in will have earned it.

Some low major coach or some second tier mid-major coach certainly won’t have earned it.

Maybe that’s just how it’s going to be for the foreseeable future, where every coach isn’t good enough. Truth be told, that’s probably true if the comparison is Dixon.

But if Stallings can’t get a chance with the fan base I have no idea why any random lower level coach or assistant would assume they’d get one.
They'd be free of the stench from Stallings hiring. Only a handful of people here thought KS would be an improvement. Now, anyone with a pulse looks good. You;re known by the company you keep.
 
I think there’s a better chance of Stallings getting Pitt back up to a level above BC and Wake and Clemson before he is fired than if we had hired somebody unknown.

I think the bottom would have fallen out after last year either way.

I think we would have been much better off last year and this year with Dixon in place than with a less than mediocre Stallings, whose recent record is a joke. Now even with Dixon, we would not be a 25 or 20 win team this year, and I don't think Dixon would have made last year's team into a 25 win team by any stretch. But he at least gave us a better chance at winning, just with his coaching style and focus on fundamentals, than we get with this Stallings guy. We just wouldn't be at the bottom like we are right now with no hope whatsoever of recovery like we are now if Dixon were here.

But he's not and we got what we got for a while, thanks to a very stupid former AD, an incompetent administration, and a few very big mouth, big donor boosters.
 
I think there’s a better chance of Stallings getting Pitt back up to a level above BC and Wake and Clemson before he is fired than if we had hired somebody unknown.

I think the bottom would have fallen out after last year either way.
I think that’s a damning rationale-
Which essentially cements we’d be no worse off with an unknown.
 
paul zeise called all of you guys "looney message board fan boys." Are you guys gonna take that? what's the matter with you guys? Whats the world coming to?

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I like Zeise and I am not offended because he clearly isn't talking about me. I know as much or more about college basketball than he does and I believe many posters on here do also. I trust the opinions, good or bad, of certain Lair posters more than the "fake news media." Sorry, had to get that sarcastic dig in there
 
I agree, for all the reasons you stated.

But to the point about recruiting, there's where my worry lies.

He had huge opportunity to sell ACC playing time with his first class, and his results were OK at best.

He went the route of roster turnover, and his short term replacements are not players who are making a significant impact.

The recruiting class for next year has been underwhelming.

I agree completely with needing a fair shot. But he needs to start getting some higher end players soon, or his time here will not be a long one.

This is EXACTLY how I feel. There's no doubt Stallings can coach and knows his stuff. But a big part of college coaching is recruiting.

We HAD a really good COACH. Dixon was one of the best at getting the most out of what he had, even as he started struggling recruiting wise, better than Stallings.

The thing is, Stallings was supposed to bring in good players. I was fine with Dixon leaving and didn't want Stallings obviously, but at least grew with the idea he'd bring in better players. He's a brilliant offensive mind, knows his stuff, and I thought with the higher level players he'd bring in than what we got the past few years prior, he'd be able to get us back on track. However, the recruting is very scary for the future. We have lots of good complimentary pieces, but no big time players , and in the ACC thats a recipe for disaster.

Lastly, not to you DT, but overall, stop talking about how it would be so hard to recruit here if Stallings leaves to try to get another coach.

In basketball, it's all about the coach. Western Kentucky had a top recruiting class last year, and there's examples like that yearly. There's tons of programs with less history or that seem worse perceptionally than Pitt that get top players, but they have good recruiters.

That's all it takes. So spare me all of the excuses of why Pitt just can't recruit good players. Just make a committment and hire some coaches that can recruit and get them what they need. It's not like football where you have to get 25 guys a year. If we could simply have our 2018 class like PSU's sophomores are now, there'd be a lot of optimism when you combine that with Carr, Stevenson, Davis... and thats PENN STATE BASKETBALL. People need to stop feeling so bad for Pitt. Pitt makes themselves what they are. No we won't be Kentucky, Duke, etc., but that next tier is full of teams and programs just like us.
 
I agree, for all the reasons you stated.

But to the point about recruiting, there's where my worry lies.

He had huge opportunity to sell ACC playing time with his first class, and his results were OK at best.

He went the route of roster turnover, and his short term replacements are not players who are making a significant impact.

The recruiting class for next year has been underwhelming.

I agree completely with needing a fair shot. But he needs to start getting some higher end players soon, or his time here will not be a long one.

This is EXACTLY how I feel. There's no doubt Stallings can coach and knows his stuff. But a big part of college coaching is recruiting.

We HAD a really good COACH. Dixon was one of the best at getting the most out of what he had, even as he started struggling recruiting wise, better than Stallings.

The thing is, Stallings was supposed to bring in good players. I was fine with Dixon leaving and didn't want Stallings obviously, but at least grew with the idea he'd bring in better players. He's a brilliant offensive mind, knows his stuff, and I thought with the higher level players he'd bring in than what we got the past few years prior, he'd be able to get us back on track. However, the recruting is very scary for the future. We have lots of good complimentary pieces, but no big time players , and in the ACC thats a recipe for disaster.

Lastly, not to you DT, but overall, stop talking about how it would be so hard to recruit here if Stallings leaves to try to get another coach.

In basketball, it's all about the coach. Western Kentucky had a top recruiting class last year, and there's examples like that yearly. There's tons of programs with less history or that seem worse perceptionally than Pitt that get top players, but they have good recruiters.

That's all it takes. So spare me all of the excuses of why Pitt just can't recruit good players. Just make a committment and hire some coaches that can recruit and get them what they need. It's not like football where you have to get 25 guys a year. If we could simply have our 2018 class like PSU's sophomores are now, there'd be a lot of optimism when you combine that with Carr, Stevenson, Davis... and thats PENN STATE BASKETBALL. People need to stop feeling so bad for Pitt. Pitt makes themselves what they are. No we won't be Kentucky, Duke, etc., but that next tier is full of teams and programs just like us.

If Penn State could get a class like that, there's not a reason in this world that Pitt can't. Chambers was able to convince a bunch of inner city Philly kids to spend 4 years in the PA wilderness to build a program from nothing. No reason Stallings or whoever cant do the same.
 
Dixon has nothing to do with my opinion on Stallings.

My short list of replacement which I wanted absolutely no part of was
Stallings and Cronin
Show us your list of guys you did want. You are off your damn rocker! I want to see that list so I can laugh like hell at the people you think were dying to take the Pitt job after Dixon left! Its not complicated, you are simple!
 
I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a minute. So indulge me.

What if firing a coach like Stallings right now or at the end of the year sends a very loud and clear message to the rest of the college basketball world and to other coaches that Pitt finds mediocrity and losing basketball totally unacceptable and is willing to change that, effective immediately? Maybe those other coaches and the rest of college basketball will then view Pitt basketball in a more favorable light and understand that Pitt is a high level institution and expects its basketball team to excel like it did for so many years in the early 2000's. Maybe, just maybe, a high quality coach will like that and want to be here.
 
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I do believe he probably deserves more respect. But I also believe he’s only an ok coach. There have been some heavy hitters who praise his offensive abilities. So who the hell am I to question that. His history isn’t terrible but I always look at his final Vandy team (his overall isn’t overwhelming either). NBA talent for at least 2 guys and a marginal 3rd I believe. Limped in to the play in game and got sent home.

And I still think the way this was handled by Barnes caused some of this. His initial presser made everyone seem optimistic then we had a retread dud dropped in our laps. Nobody will ever convince me he was an overall upgrade in any way shape or form. Unless of course he’s around long enough to prove me wrong (and I won’t be unhappy if he does).
Great post. Everything you said and his start at Pitt is the issue. Not the fans opinion of Stallings.
 
I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a minute. So indulge me.

What if firing a coach like Stallings right now or at the end of the year sends a very loud and clear message to the rest of the college basketball world and to other coaches that Pitt finds mediocrity and losing basketball totally unacceptable and is willing to change that, effective immediately? Maybe those other coaches and the rest of college basketball will then view Pitt basketball in a more favorable light and understand that Pitt is a high level institution and expects its basketball team to excel like it did for so many years in the early 2000's. Maybe, just maybe, a high quality coach will like that and want to be here.
I think it's really an overblown thing to say that many other coaches wouldn't come to Pitt because we fired Stallings early. They may not come for other reasons but I don't think that would be as big of an issue as done make it.
 
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I think it's really an overblown thing to say that many other coaches wouldn't come to Pitt because we fired Stallings early. They may not come for other reasons but I don't think that would be as big of an issue as done make it.

No one is going to hold it against pitt for firing stallings if in his first two years here he goes 4-32in the ACC.

The bigger issue was how Dixon was handled honestly.
 
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Show us your list of guys you did want. You are off your damn rocker! I want to see that list so I can laugh like hell at the people you think were dying to take the Pitt job after Dixon left! Its not complicated, you are simple!
Simple-
Anyone but those two.

I thought that was clear. Apologies for being indirect.

I’m an optimistic person by nature.
But with those two unlikeable toads, i’d Be unpleased .

It was always a lottery ticket chance we’d improve on a great coach, albeit flawed, like Dixon.

But , if the analogy is the old game show Press Your Luck- we got whammied.
 
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He’s earned a chance, and it’s absolutely a horrible look for fans to be on the warpath against him.

I’m pro-Dixon and think people were stupid about him. I don’t think he was washed up and think he deserved immense support in an effort to turn things around, rather than being met with unrest.

I think Stallings deserves the same. Vanderbilt went to 7 NCAA Tournaments before Stallings got there. He doubled that in 17 years. He’s not a bum who produced mediocre results at a respectable program. He produced mediocre results at a lower-tier P5 program. That’s better than most of the other options Pitt could get.

7 tournaments in 17 years is not impressive. What Calipari did at UMass was impressive (albeit against the rules).

I look at it this way. Stallings had proven himself to be a mediocre coach/recruiter at the high major level over 17 years. He is exactly what his history says he is.

If you hire proven mediocrity, you are nearly guaranteed to receive said mediocrity as a return. The classic low ceiling/high floor commodity. A Dave Littlefield FA signing, if you will. If you take on more risk on a high ceiling/low floor commodity, like a Tyler Glasnow for instance, you may wind up with an ace, or you may get nothing. But there is no reward without risk, and Kevin Stallings is Bryan Bullington while Pitt possibly lets Zack Greinke, Prince Fielder, Nick Swisher, Matt Cain, and Cole Hamels go drifting by. Anybody stumping for Stallings is basically regurgitating the famous quote from Littlefield about #1 overall pick Bullington,

"He could be a good #3 pitcher."

or his favorite saying of all

"He has a proven track record"

No thank you
 
7 tournaments in 17 years is not impressive. What Calipari did at UMass was impressive (albeit against the rules).

I look at it this way. Stallings had proven himself to be a mediocre coach/recruiter at the high major level over 17 years. He is exactly what his history says he is.

If you hire proven mediocrity, you are nearly guaranteed to receive said mediocrity as a return. The classic low ceiling/high floor commodity. A Dave Littlefield FA signing, if you will. If you take on more risk on a high ceiling/low floor commodity, like a Tyler Glasnow for instance, you may wind up with an ace, or you may get nothing. But there is no reward without risk, and Kevin Stallings is Bryan Bullington while Pitt possibly lets Zack Greinke, Prince Fielder, Nick Swisher, Matt Cain, and Cole Hamels go drifting by. Anybody stumping for Stallings is basically regurgitating the famous quote from Littlefield about #1 overall pick Bullington,

"He could be a good #3 pitcher."

or his favorite saying of all

"He has a proven track record"

No thank you

Perfect comparison.
 
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No one is going to hold it against pitt for firing stallings if in his first two years here he goes 4-32in the ACC.

The bigger issue was how Dixon was handled honestly.

And some of those people are gone. Now if we can somehow put muzzles on the boosters who helped put a bug in Barnes' ear, we'll be OK. Those boosters are big part of Pitt's problem.
 
I did not like the hire because I would have preferred a younger coach.Time is just not on his side given the need to completely rebuild the program. And, being a little older than Stallings, I know that drive that I had as a younger guy to work really hard and climb the ladder has just naturally diminished as I am not going to climb any higher at this point, much like him. This rebuild is going to be tough and very trying, and you can already see some signs in him that he just gives up. You just know at the Louisville game last year he wanted to be anywhere else. That just cannot happen with a young team. Now that it is done, we need to give him a little more time to see what he can do. But if next year is this bad, I am not sure I could take any more.
 
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He’s earned it more than any other candidate we bring in will have earned it.

Some low major coach or some second tier mid-major coach certainly won’t have earned it.

Maybe that’s just how it’s going to be for the foreseeable future, where every coach isn’t good enough. Truth be told, that’s probably true if the comparison is Dixon.

But if Stallings can’t get a chance with the fan base I have no idea why any random lower level coach or assistant would assume they’d get one.


Because it’s always better to follow a hated coach. Anyone replacing Stallings would be supported almost automatically.

Face it Stallings is done at Pitt. He had a chance and blew it. Nobody liked him much at Vandy either. He was on the downward slope of his term there and Pitt hired him right before the axe fell.

Vanderbilt is not a shit job. Under the new coach they have attracted 2 high level recruits. They had some good years in the late 80s and early 90s. Until Howland/ Dixon Vanderbilt was a more successful program than Pitt.

Time to move on.
 
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The Dambrot quote isn't all that strong of an endorsement of Stallings. It begins with "if he doesn't win," so it implicitly acknowledges the realistic possibility that Stallings will not succeed at Pitt. I mean, if he had good enough players, as Dambrot suggests, then sure, he would win here. That's not exactly groundbreaking analysis. A message board loonie could have told you that.

And the pre-edited original tweet from Sarah Spencer, "anybody who doesn't think he's not a good coach doesn't know anything about basketball," that double negative Freudian slip is kind of hilarious if you read the literal meaning.
 
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He’s earned a chance, and it’s absolutely a horrible look for fans to be on the warpath against him.

I’m pro-Dixon and think people were stupid about him. I don’t think he was washed up and think he deserved immense support in an effort to turn things around, rather than being met with unrest.

I think Stallings deserves the same. Vanderbilt went to 7 NCAA Tournaments before Stallings got there. He doubled that in 17 years. He’s not a bum who produced mediocre results at a respectable program. He produced mediocre results at a lower-tier P5 program. That’s better than most of the other options Pitt could get.

That is is a ridiculous argument! I don't remember the exact number, but I think they made it to the tournament 5 times in the 12 years before Stallings got there. I think they made it to sweet 16 twice during that period.
 
The interesting thing is that the same argument can go in reverse for Dixon. Many a basketball expert was acknowledging the great work Dixon was doing and continued to do in the lean years, while the message board was calling for his firing. The roster was depleted, stallings chose to not develop the young guys and then gut it. If he truly believed that none of them could develop at all and that the Monty Boykins and Samson George's of the world were better options then so be it (he did see them practice), but if having Wilson and Kitchart and Manigault on this team would have helped us hold on to Cam Johnson (just surmising) and landing Aaron Thompson, then I would have kept a few vets around.
That team may not have been any good, but I think it would have been less embarrassing, allowed for some class balance, and perhaps allowed us to see that Stallings can develop players.
 
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Perhaps Brad Stevens would have been a great fit if we would have gone after him before we took someone else's problem in Stallings. Too bad he (Stevens) had to go and have such a great run at his mid-major Butler University in the Horizon League in his first year of coaching. First year-30 wins. Three trips to the dance between 2010 and 2014 with one big loss in the Championship against Duke. Did you see the make-up of his team. Did you see the make-up of Duke (ACC). Hmmmmm. Stevens skipped high major coaching ranks even the ACC and advanced straight to the NBA. Perhaps his clean cut program elicited that? Possibly his ability to attract players without having to sneak money into their pockets helped? Maybe not having obligatory "understandings" makes for a better personnell/player relationship

What has Stallings done in 25 years......not much. He did have a good run of three post season runs from '09-'12; but over the last 10 years I think 3 visits not very good for the caliber of what our program WAS. The game has evolved and he has not evolved with the game. The public undressing of players (ex. Luther right before the half vs High Point) is just uncalled for. I just wish he would get the same for his poor coaching decisions and his arrogance! We DESERVE BETTER......STALLINGS MUST GO NOW! And for those that say give him a chance......he has had a chance! Why do you think so many kids wanted out after one year with him? They all were not bad kids! Makes you scratch your head. We would be better off starting our search now instead of waiting for the off season.
 
Stallings needs to be called to task publicly by Lyke and Gallagher and humiliated in front of the Pitt fanbase. But I get the feeling he can dish it out but he can't take it.
 
My point is more that I think it’s ridiculous to have hope when you’re scraping the barrel for a 2nd tier unproven coach.

I’m not even talking about elevating the program — that had no chance of happening.
Whay about Kevin Keatts and Bryce Drew? Either would have been much better hires and attainable.

I sure hope you and @fkthomas have attended every game and increased your donations.

I think there’s a better chance of Stallings getting Pitt back up to a level above BC and Wake and Clemson before he is fired than if we had hired somebody unknown.

I think the bottom would have fallen out after last year either way.
We were already ahead of those programs. He brought us below them and clearly below them. He did everything bad top this program.
 
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Whay about Kevin Keatts and Bryce Drew? Either would have been much better hires and attainable.

I sure hope you and @fkthomas have attended every game and increased your donations.


We were already ahead of those programs. He brought us below them and clearly below them. He did everything bad top this program.

What odd logic. Pitt was above programs like that when stallings took over..now it would be an accomplishment if he got to that level?

People seemed to think it was inevitable pitt would go in the dumpster regardless of coach, and I don’t think that is even close to true.
 
Rehashing the hiring of Stallings is pointless; it happened.
And for those that want to dump Stallings, firing a coach is always easy, and often a popular sentiment. But, finding a good replacement isn't usually as easy. Tennessee football gets a new HC ever 2-3 years these days, and they quickly canned Jones this year. They've been turned down by a half a dozen coaches already, and they're still searching. Its getting embarrassing.

Like him or not, firing Stallings early will just make the Pitt job less attractive.
 
Rehashing the hiring of Stallings is pointless; it happened.
And for those that want to dump Stallings, firing a coach is always easy, and often a popular sentiment. But, finding a good replacement isn't usually as easy. Tennessee football gets a new HC ever 2-3 years these days, and they quickly canned Jones this year. They've been turned down by a half a dozen coaches already, and they're still searching. Its getting embarrassing.

Like him or not, firing Stallings early will just make the Pitt job less attractive.

Honestly, I don’t think pitt could do worse than stallings outside of hiring a cheater like Pitino.
 
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