Interesting quote from my pastor

[KiwiJeff]

I would try and argue this.........to the end but it isn't worth it. But this is where my first "moment" in questioning this whole religion thing occurred. So...........you are saying that all of us Westerners, okay some o us Westerners, eff the Jews, Muslims, Druids and probably Catholics judging by you "Christian" ahem doctrine are doomed along wth any Eastern religions, not to mention the Indians who formerly made up this country. You guys, mostly fat, white rural Americans and the black slaves they owned, have this whole afterlife and savior thing figured out, yet most of the basis and origin of Christianity let alone other religions missed this interpretation of getting "saved"?

Are you guys that arrogant? No. It is just abject stupidity.

Every religion could be wrong, but not every religion can be correct, by definition. Why would you think anyone would follow a religion if they did not believe it to be the true faith? The hats maybe? And I don't mean casually follow it, I mean live the religion to the best of ones ability, not only go at Christmas and give a donation to the cookie drive.

 

[TD_6082]

I don't think suicide is unforgivable. Not at all.

 

[NTOP]

I don't think suicide is unforgivable. Not at all.

Agree.....it's looked at as insanity.....though the Kevorkian thing isn't?? Am I wrong to HOPE for a quick death for a suffering loved one?? Does that make me a sinner??

 

[NCPitt]

I don't think suicide is unforgivable. Not at all.

It depends what is the individual's heart...and God knows.

Suicide by individuals with mental illness but Christian hearts will likely be judged differently than those who intentionally turn from God in suicide.

 

[Ski11585]

Agree.....it's looked at as insanity.....though the Kevorkian thing isn't?? Am I wrong to HOPE for a quick death for a suffering loved one?? Does that make me a sinner??

Yeah, it's a complicated situation. To think of a historical example, how do you fit in Africans who purposefully threw themselves overboard during the Middle Passage or found ways to commit suicide once in places like Barbados? For many, it was an escape from the brutality of working sugar plantations, but there was also a prominent belief that their spirits would go back to Africa to reside with their families and kin.

 

[BPKY]

There's nothing in the Bible that says suicide is unforgivable. That's been taught in Roman Catholicism and probably stems from the fact that they also teach that you need to confess your sins to a priest and the last rights nonsense. This is an example of "religion" vs. "faith". It's all a great way to make people dependent on priests and puts money in the collection plate, but it's not Scriptural. I've never heard of an evangelical Church that taught that suicide will remove a believer from God's grace.

To teach so would be to teach that individual acts can condemn or save you, and NCPitt or KiwiJeff already explained that it's grace that saves you. Christians sin all the time and don't notice, and they don't ask for forgiveness for each sin. They usually pray the collective "Forgive me for my sins". That works for the future as well as the past. One act of desperation isn't going to negate a lifetime of fellowship.You're either a believer or you're not. Individual acts only factor is as evidence to the outside world whether or not you're sincere. As they say, it's a journey, not a destination, and believers make mistakes along the way. But they learn and grow over time.

 

[BPKY]

How could someone who attended church and 5 Catholic schools for much of his life, and still occasionally attend church, be so clueless about Christian doctrine? One would think that you would at least pick up a basic understanding, even by accident. That is almost incomprehensible that absolutely nothing got in. Or is it? In this case, perhaps not.

He doesn't attend "church" as you would likely define a christian church. He once posted that he attended some type of Unitarian/Universalist Church.

I think they worship the universe?

 

[NTOP]

There's nothing in the Bible that says suicide is unforgivable. That's been taught in Roman Catholicism and probably stems from the fact that they also teach that you need to confess your sins to a priest and the last rights nonsense. This is an example of "religion" vs. "faith". It's all a great way to make people dependent on priests and puts money in the collection plate, but it's not Scriptural. I've never heard of an evangelical Church that taught that suicide will remove a believer from God's grace.

To teach so would be to teach that individual acts can condemn or save you, and NCPitt or KiwiJeff already explained that it's grace that saves you. Christians sin all the time and don't notice, and they don't ask for forgiveness for each sin. They usually pray the collective "Forgive me for my sins". That works for the future as well as the past. One act of desperation isn't going to negate a lifetime of fellowship.You're either a believer or you're not. Individual acts only factor is as evidence to the outside world whether or not you're sincere. As they say, it's a journey, not a destination, and believers make mistakes along the way. But they learn and grow over time.

Imperfect contrition.

 

[NCPitt]

There's nothing in the Bible that says suicide is unforgivable. That's been taught in Roman Catholicism and probably stems from the fact that they also teach that you need to confess your sins to a priest and the last rights nonsense. This is an example of "religion" vs. "faith". It's all a great way to make people dependent on priests and puts money in the collection plate, but it's not Scriptural. I've never heard of an evangelical Church that taught that suicide will remove a believer from God's grace.

To teach so would be to teach that individual acts can condemn or save you, and NCPitt or KiwiJeff already explained that it's grace that saves you. Christians sin all the time and don't notice, and they don't ask for forgiveness for each sin. They usually pray the collective "Forgive me for my sins". That works for the future as well as the past. One act of desperation isn't going to negate a lifetime of fellowship.You're either a believer or you're not. Individual acts only factor is as evidence to the outside world whether or not you're sincere. As they say, it's a journey, not a destination, and believers make mistakes along the way. But they learn and grow over time.

My wording has been clumsy if I implied it was unforgivable. I stated that it would be in Hitler's case but didn't mean that it applies in all cases. In always boils down to what is one's heart because Jesus death on the cross made all sins forgivable - past, present, and future.

Your statement about "faith" vs "religion" is important though. There are many who question whether the act of suicide means one has lost his faith in God. This comes from the many statements in the Bible that one is to turn toward God in times of distress. Suicide generally is viewed as the loss of hope and purpose given to us by God.

 

[BPKY]

We all lose heart at one time or the other.

Bruce Wayne: What have I done, Alfred? Everything my family... my father built...

Alfred Pennyworth: The Wayne legacy is more than bricks and mortar, sir.

Bruce Wayne: I wanted to save Gotham. I failed.

Alfred Pennyworth: Why do we fall sir? So that we can learn to pick ourselves up.

Bruce Wayne: You still haven't given up on me?

Alfred Pennyworth: Never.

Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

 

[Dallas Burgher]

What's legal and what's moral only sometimes intersect.
Divorce is immoral in your book, but legal. Same with cheating on your spouse, working on the sabbath, and hundreds of other things.
Mean while plenty of illegal things are ordained in the bible.
I understand you are ala carte in regards to morality... But that's only underscores why it's folly to apply your brand of beliefs onto laws.

Does your pastor advocate for stoning as punishment for divorce as literates in the Bible?
Probably no, because like politicians.. humanity tends to change their mind.
I will guarantee your pastor has likewise changed his mind on many different issues.

Stoning for punishment for divorce? Help me out with this. I don't remember that.

 

[BPKY]

Stoning for punishment for divorce? Help me out with this. I don't remember that.

He's quoting from the book that he authored. Song of Simpleton.

 

[paulbl99]

He's quoting from the book that he authored. Song of Simpleton.

Brutal
Just brutal!

 

[TD_6082]

There's nothing in the Bible that says suicide is unforgivable. That's been taught in Roman Catholicism and probably stems from the fact that they also teach that you need to confess your sins to a priest and the last rights nonsense. This is an example of "religion" vs. "faith". It's all a great way to make people dependent on priests and puts money in the collection plate, but it's not Scriptural. I've never heard of an evangelical Church that taught that suicide will remove a believer from God's grace.

To teach so would be to teach that individual acts can condemn or save you, and NCPitt or KiwiJeff already explained that it's grace that saves you. Christians sin all the time and don't notice, and they don't ask for forgiveness for each sin. They usually pray the collective "Forgive me for my sins". That works for the future as well as the past. One act of desperation isn't going to negate a lifetime of fellowship.You're either a believer or you're not. Individual acts only factor is as evidence to the outside world whether or not you're sincere. As they say, it's a journey, not a destination, and believers make mistakes along the way. But they learn and grow over time.

Excellent post BPKY