NCAA CHAMPIONSHIPS THREAD
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Not even his parents think that
Santoro agreed to a contract to become Pitt's next HC and Lyke pulled the plug immediately after being hired and conducted a search if I remember correctly.
I think she had her eyes on Bono who at the time was a hot commodity. He is not doing super well at Wisconsin but had some good years
Ignorance truly must be bliss. LOL.
Evans has a great demeanor/makeup. Work ethic is there, as is the State champ pedigree. Would not be surprised to see him in a captain role in, like, 2027 if his offensive skill is refined.
That said, he'd last about 45 seconds before David Carr 20 pieces + cradles him.
I just pray overall that they get more offensive and hope they realize that you might lose once in a while from a bad shot but you’ll never win when it matters if your all defensive.i know the coaches realize this and I hope they find a way to get this turned around.
Gavin’s teams MO the last several years with the exception of Neenbon has been lack of aggression and regression.
Santoro’s agreement with the search committee included upgrades in assistant salaries, improvements in facilities pending the completion of Victory Heights, a significant role in what the wrestling facilities for Victory Heights would include, and an increased recruiting budget. He and his family are content at Lehigh, and if he was going to come back, it would only be on terms where Pitt was at least competitive nationally.
She said no to much of it not because she wouldn’t spend the money but because she had two others who people had whispered in her ear would be better choices: Bono and Flynn. She scheduled an interview with Flynn, but before it he called Pat and whatever was said caused Flynn to cancel the interview. I understand Bono also cancelled his interview, but don’t know why. Chris Bono now is the coach at Wisconsin where he has had decent results but certainly has not moved them close to being among the conference elite. Reportedly after being turned down by Bono, she took the safe pick in Gavin who was a Pitt guy and an assistant at UVA (I think).
All you have to do is watch Gavin on the sidelines and you should realize that he is not a “closer.” Walt Harris wasn’t either, but he had Paul Rhoads, who was. This staff has nothing resembling a closer.
I don’t think it’s realistic to think this program will overtake PSU. But, PSU was a second tier Big Ten program before Cael. What he has done is remarkable and unparralled in any collegiate sport. He has the facilities, the wrestling club, the staff, the support, everything that could be needed. But, I think what he has more than anything is The Eye. He doesn’t just recruit the best wrestlers in PA, NJ and Ohio. He could, and probably could win occasional national championships, with just them. But, he got Bo Nickel from Texas, Bravo-Young from Arizona, Nick Lee from Indiana, other national champions from California. His prize frosh is from Utah, his home state. And, when he does take a PA kid, he rarely misses: Nico, Vincenzo, Levi Haines, Carter Starrocci.
We can’t find the money or the coach to compete with him. But, we could have found one to compete on an equal footing with NC State, VT, Missouri, Nebraska, etc. And, he was right there in Bethlehem, PA.
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And he wanted to be here which is the worst part.
It’s RTC and NIL money that is making it happen. Donations to PWC pale in comparison to what nlwc brings in. It’s all about rhe RTC $ in todays game and NIL has added to the chaos. . No team has more than 9.9 scholarships, Pitt sports in general, low number of donors donating a low amount of $’s.
Cael does miss. You just do not notice it because he just over recruits the misses. Recent ones are Teasdale, steen and Howard..
The search committee has some blame to take with Santoro. From one very important perspective, the presentation to Santoro was not great, with little substantive answers to questions on commitment or vision for the program, and those commitments that you state, such as facilities upgrades, were not made in any concrete fashion. Remember, this is a guy that oversaw his own wrestling facilities upgrades at Lehigh, and even had a vision for the Field House in his head. But on Lyke, Santoro left his interview without even receiving an offer, which was very disappointing and surprising, and that was the nail. Although he was very much interested because there is a competitive ceiling at Lehigh and he is very much a Pitt man, he also had, at the time, very important family ties in Bethlehem that may still have kept him there, and Pitt made his decision to move on very easy on him. It was terrible timing with the AD transition, but Pitt absolutely dropped the ball with blame to go around. Some may remember me posting the same immediately after Santoro's interview. I still hold it to be one of Lyke's biggest whiffs, because I really think Pitt could have had him. However, in retrospect, it probably ended up being personally better for him to have stayed in Bethelehm the last several years, so I think it was for the best for him (not for Pitt).
As much as I'd love Gavin to succeed with him being a Pitt alumni, he was a choice after multiple people, including Flynn, turned Pitt's inquiries down. At some point there is going to have to be a decision made but it probably will come after Victory Heights is opened. But VH or not, there is zero reason Pitt shouldn't expect a program regularly near the top of the ACC.
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FYI, here are the final team scores:
Would love to see the team place more emphasis on the theatrics of recruiting. I see plenty of schools always putting visuals up where their coaches are that weekend looking for future recruits and having the catchy tag line when a recruit does commit. I used to think that doesn’t matter but the teams that do make the extra effort seem to be getting rewarded. Coach Gavin used to send out a positive tweet or something along those lines but haven’t seen anything recently. I think it shows more at the big picture that the coaching staff are putting in the effort rather looking at it as just a tweet
Man so glad I found this thread. Didn’t even know it was on Pantherlair. My son, while only 7, is a really good wrestler at Penn Trafford. Trains at Young Guns in the off-season. Placed 5 last year. Good to talk some wrestling.
Random Tournament Thoughts:
VT, which got pretty much wiped out by NC State at the ACCs, had a good tournament, while NC State did not do as well as expected. Some “experts” had picked NC State for 2nd or 3rd. I have never bought into the idea that you can get your team to “peak” at a certain time in wrestling, unlike swimming where it is done all the time. But, maybe there is something to it.
Meanwhile, Cornell finishing second after finishing third last year blows up the argument that you need 21st century facilities, a renowned wrestling club and a billionaire donor to win. I’ve never seen their weight room or their wrestling room but they wrestle in what is no better or bigger than a high school gym. In fact, most high school gyms are nicer.
Yes, they finished 100 points behind PSU, but they beat everyone else.
The other thing we learned from this tournament is that recruiting rankings coming out of high school count. A lot. This is based on Flo Wrestling’s Big Board, which ranks the top 100 recruits without regard to weight class. Of the 80 AAs, only 15 were not Top 100 recruits coming out of high school. No finalists were not in the top 100. In fact, the lowest ranked finalist was #49. The lowest ranked champion was the kid from Northern Iowa who was #14. Only two #1 ranked overall won, but wrestlers ranked in the top 5 were dominant.
Who does the best job of coaching up non-top 10 wrestlers? Not Cael. Everyone of his titalists was ranked in the top 10. Mesenbrink, who finished second was his lowest ranked wrestler at #18. Pat Santoro had 3 AAs and none were ranked in the top 10 in their class. He’s that guy that Heather rejected.
VT, which got pretty much wiped out by NC State at the ACCs, had a good tournament, while NC State did not do as well as expected. Some “experts” had picked NC State for 2nd or 3rd. I have never bought into the idea that you can get your team to “peak” at a certain time in wrestling, unlike swimming where it is done all the time. But, maybe there is something to it.
Meanwhile, Cornell finishing second after finishing third last year blows up the argument that you need 21st century facilities, a renowned wrestling club and a billionaire donor to win. I’ve never seen their weight room or their wrestling room but they wrestle in what is no better or bigger than a high school gym. In fact, most high school gyms are nicer.
Yes, they finished 100 points behind PSU, but they beat everyone else.
The other thing we learned from this tournament is that recruiting rankings coming out of high school count. A lot. This is based on Flo Wrestling’s Big Board, which ranks the top 100 recruits without regard to weight class. Of the 80 AAs, only 15 were not Top 100 recruits coming out of high school. No finalists were not in the top 100. In fact, the lowest ranked finalist was #49. The lowest ranked champion was the kid from Northern Iowa who was #14. Only two #1 ranked overall won, but wrestlers ranked in the top 5 were dominant.
Who does the best job of coaching up non-top 10 wrestlers? Not Cael. Everyone of his titalists was ranked in the top 10. Mesenbrink, who finished second was his lowest ranked wrestler at #18. Pat Santoro had 3 AAs and none were ranked in the top 10 in their class. He’s that guy that Heather rejected.
Crookham was #1 at his weight but #11 overall in the top 100
Cornell's practice facility is one of the best.
Friedman Wrestling Center - Facilities - Cornell University Athletics
The official facilities page for the Cornell University Big Red
cornellbigred.com
Spartan Combat RTC (formerly Finger Lakes Wrestling Club) is also very good.
To follow that up MIKE as I am definitely in agreement , and I’ve said it in the past regarding the ranking of recruits. we all know there is no exact formula for and guarantee regarding how accurate rankings are, but all of our recent and past success has come from guys ranked in the top hundred coming out of high school. so that’s why I said this, is that our goal should always be Snag one or two guys if possible in the top 50 but the majority of the guys should be in the top 100 and then a guy here and there outside. Yes you always want that guy who you can tell is getting better and better by the year that might be outside the top hundred that you can work with to reach those goals but you can’t have 50% of your team that way, the proof is in the results you posted.
They have the advantage of offering a great education which some elite wrestlers want.
Define "Serious Investment"...What type of budget would be required to bring things up a level.
What about NIL money to compete on the recruiting trail & portal ?
Not sure how they spend it, but do know they utilize the nlwc on "the back end" with recruits when they dont have scholarship monies to provide.
NLWC finances are much more that PWC and the NIL funds are significant also.
NLWC Revenue is $4,615,955, Expenses are $1,896,573, leaving Net Income at $2,719,382. PWC is probably 1/20th of that number. Can find the NLWC Form 990 online, was not able to find the PWC Form 990 to compare. NLWC has a lot of $ to throw around and use for grey shirts, travel, training, and other items that attract wrestlers.
It takes money, donations and other contributors to make it happen. I spoke with many who have been recruited at Big schools and Big 12 schools, money and other perks have impact. Its the unfortunate landscape of college wrestling and all sports today.
NLWC finances are much more that PWC and the NIL funds are significant also.
NLWC Revenue is $4,615,955, Expenses are $1,896,573, leaving Net Income at $2,719,382. PWC is probably 1/20th of that number. Can find the NLWC Form 990 online, was not able to find the PWC Form 990 to compare. NLWC has a lot of $ to throw around and use for grey shirts, travel, training, and other items that attract wrestlers.
It takes money, donations and other contributors to make it happen. I spoke with many who have been recruited at Big schools and Big 12 schools, money and other perks have impact. Its the unfortunate landscape of college wrestling and all sports today.
Do you think from the parent perspective of having a kid wrestling already for Pitt, that it would be beneficial for Gavin and Company to may be more vocal/better communication regarding what he needs for this program to take that step, rather than us just just throwing money around and praying to God it’s either enough or goes to the right place?
Without saying too much, Keith knows where they need to improve, communicates well with the boys, has communicated with me also. He has the attention of the team, he knows what it takes, hes been there. I have more I can add, but it would be on a one to one basis and not in print.
Having three on scholarship, two wrestling, comparing what Bucknell has to deal with, who are now fully funded, a great deal of it comes down to $ but also the school, difficulty of the education, and location. Partners are important, but two recruits who turned down Pitt this year when Pitt was in their final 2, it came down to not wanting to be in the city. Many wont want to accept this, but Oakland is not a draw for many as when you look at where a high percentage of wrestlers come from, they come from small towns and not from city schools. In my opinion its hard to recruit to a city school without the draw of a strong RTC like Penn and Columbia.
Having three on scholarship, two wrestling, comparing what Bucknell has to deal with, who are now fully funded, a great deal of it comes down to $ but also the school, difficulty of the education, and location. Partners are important, but two recruits who turned down Pitt this year when Pitt was in their final 2, it came down to not wanting to be in the city. Many wont want to accept this, but Oakland is not a draw for many as when you look at where a high percentage of wrestlers come from, they come from small towns and not from city schools. In my opinion its hard to recruit to a city school without the draw of a strong RTC like Penn and Columbia.
There always are going to be kids who don’t want the city. I’m sure we never were in the running for either Lawrence brother for example. But, Columbus isn’t a small town and Ohio State gets top kids. I personally think NC State’s campus is the ugliest of all of the southern ACC schools but that coach gets top kids from PA. I doubt there are many kids from Bergen Catholic or St Edward’s that rejected Pitt because of the campus or the city.
A kid like Meyer Shapiro is a kid we should have been in on last year. Were we? I don’t think so. I’m not saying we should have gotten him but we should have been recruiting him. I understand it came down to Penn and Cornell and I don’t think the campus was the deciding factor. I think he is going to win at least two titles.
Kids are going to eliminate particular schools for a variety of reasons, but that can’t be an excuse for not getting one or two top 50 kids every year.
A kid like Meyer Shapiro is a kid we should have been in on last year. Were we? I don’t think so. I’m not saying we should have gotten him but we should have been recruiting him. I understand it came down to Penn and Cornell and I don’t think the campus was the deciding factor. I think he is going to win at least two titles.
Kids are going to eliminate particular schools for a variety of reasons, but that can’t be an excuse for not getting one or two top 50 kids every year.
I am sure we went after Meyer Shapiro but I doubt he had any interest. He went to Cornell a year early and spent his senior year training there because of the quality of their RTC and training partners (Yianni the biggest one). We currently do not match Cornell's RTC and will never match their education.
I sometimes wonder how a kid can wrestle at the level that Cornell does but handle the academic rigor. I know that Cornell consists of a privae and state side. Are most of the wrestlers on the state side, which may not be as demanding as the private side? Just wondering.
A wrestling club is a lot like NIL but they have been around longer, you need a strong donor base to fund one properly. The NLWC is head and shoulders above everyone else and they are helped by having a former Penn State wrestler who very wealthy that supports them. They are not a fair comparison to RTC. It takes a hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund an RTC because you are paying these athletes to be a part of the club and you paying for them and coaches to travel around the world to compete unless they are on the world/national team and are competing for team USA. The program gets training partners and coaches for there current wrestlers out of the deal.
The PWC main draw right now is with wrestlers who are looking to return Pittsburgh after there college careers. At the moment they only have 2 guys who are considered in the top 10 at there weight domestically.
IMO the PWC needs more engagement with fans and possible donors.
As for NIL all I hear are mainly rumors about what people are getting and I have been told almost all are inflated. Iowa throws around a ton of money but they are a rabid fan base that is truly desperate to be on top. Most programs are using NIL to make up the difference after the partial scholarship.
Academic rigor at elite privates are often more about the difficulty getting in than getting a degree.
I guarantee Pitt has programs that are more difficult to get through than Cornell; because I saw it first hand at Penn. There is major incentives at elite privates for not failing students.
And no, at Cornell, some of the colleges in the university are funded by SUNY...like the vet school. The academic programs make a difference in rigor, not whether they receive public funding.
Cornell and Dartmouth academically do not compare to the other Ivies. Their academic standing is below schools in New England like Wesleyan, Amherst and Tufts. The Ivy League always has been a 3-tier conference academically, with Harvard, Tale and Princeton at the top, Penn, Columbia and Brown in the middle and Dartmouth and Cornell at the bottom. That being said, the reputation of being an Ivy school helps Cornell’s recruiting a lot and it still is an excellent school.
Back when I first got out of the Army and was still interested in politics, I ran a presidential candidate’s primary campaign in the 14th Congressional district in New York. The district was 95% in Brooklyn, and I lived with a Park Slope, Brooklyn family with two attorneys, Paul & Maida Asofsky, who were big in the progressive wing of the Democratic Party, which was then nothing more than a thorn in the side of the in-control regular Democrats. Their oldest son, Dean, had just finished his freshman year at Cornell and he told me it had been easier than his senior year at Stuyvesant, a public but very selective high school across the East River in Lower Manhattan.
Dean graduated very high in his class at Cornell, but was not accepted by Harvard, Yale or Penn law schools. They just didn’t take Cornell graduates. He went to NYU Law School and has had an outstanding subsequent professional career.
Back when I first got out of the Army and was still interested in politics, I ran a presidential candidate’s primary campaign in the 14th Congressional district in New York. The district was 95% in Brooklyn, and I lived with a Park Slope, Brooklyn family with two attorneys, Paul & Maida Asofsky, who were big in the progressive wing of the Democratic Party, which was then nothing more than a thorn in the side of the in-control regular Democrats. Their oldest son, Dean, had just finished his freshman year at Cornell and he told me it had been easier than his senior year at Stuyvesant, a public but very selective high school across the East River in Lower Manhattan.
Dean graduated very high in his class at Cornell, but was not accepted by Harvard, Yale or Penn law schools. They just didn’t take Cornell graduates. He went to NYU Law School and has had an outstanding subsequent professional career.
Not quite sure I understand this last part. Does it mean that some of the state programs at Cornell can be more demanding than programs on the private side?
