OT: 80 Years ago

[TFBaum]

As I post this lunchtime east standard time 80 years ago the Jap Fleet would attack United States Pacific Fleet. The next day my uncle would enlist in the US Navy. He became machinist mate that would rise to Chief in a submarine. What many don't know is it was that US Submarine boats that would stop the Jap Fleet. He was the inspiration that made me want to become a sailor. To those men who lost thier lives that day and the thousands more during the four years of hell (in both theatres) God Bless you and your families and may we never forget the heroism of the men and women United States Navy, Marines, Army, and Air Corp

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

Something I never read or heard before but was mentioned in a Pearl Harbor story on my local TV morning news: Japan's motive behind the attack was to destroy the U. S. Pacific Fleet and thus keep the U. S. out of the war. If true, that has to go down as the mother of strategic blunders.

 

[happjack]

Something I never read or heard before but was mentioned in a Pearl Harbor story on my local TV morning news: Japan's motive behind the attack was to destroy the U. S. Pacific Fleet and thus keep the U. S. out of the war. If true, that has to go down as the mother of strategic blunders.

That's a real over simplification of the reason for the attack. The Japanese needed the Pacific Fleet sidelined since the main goal was expanding into Southeast Asia(Philippines, Hong Kong, Malaya, Singapore and so on), they knew it was going to be war with the US following the attack. Japan's hope for the war with the US was a few big battles, negotiations and ending up with more territory than they started with.

 

[upj87]

That's a real over simplification of the reason for the attack. The Japanese needed the Pacific Fleet sidelined since the main goal was expanding into Southeast Asia(Philippines, Hong Kong, Malaya, Singapore and so on), they knew it was going to be war with the US following the attack. Japan's hope for the war with the US was a few big battles, negotiations and ending up with more territory than they started with.

the bigger blunder in their thinking was them knowing the carriers were not at Pearl but let the attack proceed anyways. Still had battleship is king mentality..came to bite them in the ass at Midway and it was all downhill from there..had they timed it better things may have changed but ultimately they were always going to be toast..

 

[pittdan77]

My grandfather was at Hickam, which was also attacked. Never provided much more information than that. We didn't even know that he was at the battle of the Solomon Islands until after my grandmother died and we found his DD-214. It had to be absolutely horrific.

 

[pitt90seven]

That's a real over simplification of the reason for the attack. The Japanese needed the Pacific Fleet sidelined since the main goal was expanding into Southeast Asia(Philippines, Hong Kong, Malaya, Singapore and so on), they knew it was going to be war with the US following the attack. Japan's hope for the war with the US was a few big battles, negotiations and ending up with more territory than they started with.

oversimplified but his point is still valid that it was a terrible plan. "let's go attack this giant, massively industrialized nation with all the resources they could ever need."

all the generals: "yes that's a great idea."

 

[rmf05]

Something I never read or heard before but was mentioned in a Pearl Harbor story on my local TV morning news: Japan's motive behind the attack was to destroy the U. S. Pacific Fleet and thus keep the U. S. out of the war. If true, that has to go down as the mother of strategic blunders.

There was a documentary around the 50th anniversary that really dove into the Japanese prep for PH and what the government was up to leading up to it. Fascinating. There were many voices saying it was a catastrophic miscalculation. In the end though, it was an early example of groupthink exacerbated by Japan's cultural quirks regarding not speaking up to superiors, elders and sacrifice. So many were just mindlessly resigned to certain death at the hands of the Americans but they still went through with it. Many were shocked the attack was so successful and began to think maybe they overestimated us.

 

[lilspainishflea]

Thanks for your service.

My favorite podcast, Hardcore History with Dan Carlin, recently wrapped up a series on the War in the Pacific called "Supernova in the East." I highly recommend everyone check it out. It is a compelling, if horrifying, listen.

My unit in the USAF was captured when Bataan fell. They were a bomber unit sent to the Philippines prior to Pearl Harbor but sent without their aircraft. When Pearl Harbor was attacked, the Army Air Corps canceled the shipment and my unit had to fight alongside the army as light infantry. To date, they are the only Air Force unit to fight as an Infantry battalion. All survivors were captured and most suffered horrifically.

There's a memorial marathon every year in New Mexico. https://bataanmarch.com/ You can compete in the "off road" and "heavy" categories where you attempt to simulate - to the extent possible - the experience in their memory.

 

[TFBaum]

Something I never read or heard before but was mentioned in a Pearl Harbor story on my local TV morning news: Japan's motive behind the attack was to destroy the U. S. Pacific Fleet and thus keep the U. S. out of the war. If true, that has to go down as the mother of strategic blunders.

I highly recommend you read At Dawn We Slept. It is required reading at the Academy. I remember asking my father what was the general attitude if the US went to war with the Japs and he said we would defeat them in six months which was true to some extent after Coral Sea and Midway

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

I highly recommend you read At Dawn We Slept. It is required reading at the Academy. I remember asking my father what was the general attitude if the US went to war with the Japs and he said we would defeat them in six months which was true to some extent after Coral Sea and Midway

I knew Goldstein from when I was at GSPIA, but no, I never read the book. (Probably would have if I had been in the international affairs curriculum.)

 

[Parkview57]

The next day my uncle would enlist in the US Navy

You know I was thinking of my father and uncles today,in some cases (mothers side) great-uncles, they were all really good men, good providers for their families, etc., , but the 5 (out of 7) who were combat veterans all lived quiet lives, but they were shortened, none lived to age 68. , I think mostly due to alcohol use. In my fathers case, he worked about 50 hours a week, drank at home heavily in the evenings on most the week ends, never slept through the nights ( and in fact would pop-up in bed at least once a night without explanation), if you came home at four in the morning or any time, he would greet you the bottom of the stairs. Now with the internet it is easy to follow his war time activities, and his unit spent 105 days in combat, but those 105 days were enough to ruin a lot of his future days, so it seems to me in retrospect, although we kids never even sensed it. Mother knew, but even after his passing, she would say little about the war's affect on him, out of respect for his character.

 

[PITTsburghFAN]

You know I was thinking of my father and uncles today,in some cases (mothers side) great-uncles, they were all really good men, good providers for their families, etc., , but the 5 (out of 7) who were combat veterans all lived quiet lives, but they were shortened, none lived to age 68. , I think mostly due to alcohol use. In my fathers case, he worked about 50 hours a week, drank at home heavily in the evenings on most the week ends, never slept through the nights ( and in fact would pop-up in bed at least once a night without explanation), if you came home at four in the morning or any time, he would greet you the bottom of the stairs. Now with the internet it is easy to follow his war time activities, and his unit spent 105 days in combat, but those 105 days were enough to ruin a lot of his future days, so it seems to me in retrospect, although we kids never even sensed it. Mother knew, but even after his passing, she would say little about the war's affect on him, out of respect for his character.

Parkview, that is fascinating. Are you willing to share his unit? I'm guessing it was either Marines (Pacific) or Army (ETO/Med)? I love reading about the journals of units during the war.

 

[TFBaum]

You know I was thinking of my father and uncles today,in some cases (mothers side) great-uncles, they were all really good men, good providers for their families, etc., , but the 5 (out of 7) who were combat veterans all lived quiet lives, but they were shortened, none lived to age 68. , I think mostly due to alcohol use. In my fathers case, he worked about 50 hours a week, drank at home heavily in the evenings on most the week ends, never slept through the nights ( and in fact would pop-up in bed at least once a night without explanation), if you came home at four in the morning or any time, he would greet you the bottom of the stairs. Now with the internet it is easy to follow his war time activities, and his unit spent 105 days in combat, but those 105 days were enough to ruin a lot of his future days, so it seems to me in retrospect, although we kids never even sensed it. Mother knew, but even after his passing, she would say little about the war's affect on him, out of respect for his character.

God bless him. When I have time I will tell you about my dad’s PTSD some time. This was his tank Battalion https://www.army.mil/article/17393/...that_relieved_bastogne_during_battle_of_the_b. My two uncles in the Pacific talked about their leave and how drunk they got Both came to my graduation and my Uncle John and Uncle Eugene salute me tears were in their eyes.

 

[TFBaum]

I knew Goldstein from when I was at GSPIA, but no, I never read the book. (Probably would have if I had been in the international affairs curriculum.)

He would come to the academy and lecture. You should read them they are true recounts of American ingenuity and courage.

 

[Parkview57]

Army (ETO/Med)

29th Infantry Division He landed DDay +1, I think. Some elements landed on dday.

 

[TFBaum]

29th Infantry Division

The road from Arlington to Charlottesville is named after the fighting 29th.

 

[Parkview57]

I will tell you about my dad’s PTSD some time

My only hope is that he had a ton of really good days. Bless you and he and all those who serve.

 

[TFBaum]

My only hope is that he had a ton of really good days. Bless you and he and all those who serve.

He did and we buried him at 96 years young this year. 40 years season ticket holder. He loved Pitt and Pitt football. He unfortunately never got a Pitt degree Carnegie Tech math. But man did he love Pitt. Dragged me to games since I was knee high. I am sorry your dad and others didn’t see the long sunsets of life. And bless you you served. Maybe not in a uniform but as a good person in the community.

 

[TFBaum]

29th Infantry Division He landed DDay +1, I think. Some elements landed on dday.

The first wave was the Bedford boys. 80% injured or killed.

 

[W1np1tt]

My dad got deployed there to work on the planes. He rarely talked about it. My hero! RIP!

 

[TFBaum]

My dad got deployed there to work on the planes. He rarely talked about it. My hero! RIP!

God bless him

 

[Duneaux Harm]

As I post this lunchtime east standard time 80 years ago the Jap Fleet would attack United States Pacific Fleet. The next day my uncle would enlist in the US Navy. He became machinist mate that would rise to Chief in a submarine. What many don't know is it was that US Submarine boats that would stop the Jap Fleet. He was the inspiration that made me want to become a sailor. To those men who lost thier lives that day and the thousands more during the four years of hell (in both theatres) God Bless you and your families and may we never forget the heroism of the men and women United States Navy, Marines, Army, and Air Corp

I have always been a big one to honor Pearl Harbor Day in remembrance. I was caught completely off guard out here in Arizona now with the attention paid to it until the very obvious dawned on me that it was the USS Arizona that was struck. Really kind of nice living in a place that highly honors such an event. The paper indicated that UA has a memorial site and museum I am going to have to check out.

I had no family that enlisted that I know of because of Pearl Harbor. I did have an Uncle who was in the second wave of men who went to shore on D-Day. As a teenager I asked him why he went in the second wave and he said that he knew it would be a slaughter in the first wave.

The Greatest Generation for sure.

 

[Parkview57]

80% injured or killed.

Thanks for sharing, I did not want to "like" it (Dad was from South Carolina). Once when I was about 12 my oldest sister's boyfriend was over on a Sunday evening, my father was lighting the charcoal grill, you know, with the old lighter fluid, anyway the kid(about 20 years old ) says to my father, something like "today is dday", My father very quietly responded "We lost a lot of men that day" , for years I thought he meant we as in the USA, but as time passed I think he meant we was as in the 29th division.

 

[kma0043]

Thanks for your service.

My favorite podcast, Hardcore History with Dan Carlin, recently wrapped up a series on the War in the Pacific called "Supernova in the East." I highly recommend everyone check it out. It is a compelling, if horrifying, listen.

My unit in the USAF was captured when Bataan fell. They were a bomber unit sent to the Philippines prior to Pearl Harbor but sent without their aircraft. When Pearl Harbor was attacked, the Army Air Corps canceled the shipment and my unit had to fight alongside the army as light infantry. To date, they are the only Air Force unit to fight as an Infantry battalion. All survivors were captured and most suffered horrifically.

There's a memorial marathon every year in New Mexico. https://bataanmarch.com/ You can compete in the "off road" and "heavy" categories where you attempt to simulate - to the extent possible - the experience in their memory.

The Carlin Podcast series that you mention was great. Germany often gets painted with the atrocities paintbrush in WWII, but Japan may have been worse in their treatment of the Chinese, Koreans, etc.

 

[TFBaum]

Thanks for sharing, I did not want to "like" it (Dad was from South Carolina). Once when I was about 12 my oldest sister's boyfriend was over on a Sunday evening, my father was lighting the charcoal grill, you know, with the old lighter fluid, anyway the kid(about 20 years old ) says to my father, something like "today is dday", My father very quietly responded "We lost a lot of men that day" , for years I thought he meant we as in the USA, but as time passed I think he meant we was as in the 29th division.

No those were his brothers in arms. I had a neighbor when I was a kid who was first wave. He sat behind a Jeep and prayered

 

[TFBaum]

Thanks for sharing, I did not want to "like" it (Dad was from South Carolina). Once when I was about 12 my oldest sister's boyfriend was over on a Sunday evening, my father was lighting the charcoal grill, you know, with the old lighter fluid, anyway the kid(about 20 years old ) says to my father, something like "today is dday", My father very quietly responded "We lost a lot of men that day" , for years I thought he meant we as in the USA, but as time passed I think he meant we was as in the 29th division.

Your father is a great American

 

[Parkview57]

Your father is a great American

I am sure your father would feel this way, same as mine: I am reminded of Dick Winters (Band of Brothers) who said “One day my grandson said to me, grandpa were you a hero in the war? And i said to him no I'm not a hero, but I have served in a company full of them.”
They were great Americans in a country full of them.

 

[USN_Panther]

I had an uncle who was at Pearl Harbor day of the attack. He was later killed at Leyte Gulf. Another uncle was a tailgunner in a B17. His plane was shot down over Europe. He survived and as a POW was liberated by the Russians.
We had an entire nation of brave young men (and women) who served and sacrificed so much.
Thank you for starting this thread TF. And thank you for your service.

 

[TFBaum]

I had an uncle who was at Pearl Harbor day of the attack. He was later killed at Leyte Gulf. Another uncle was a tailgunner in a B17. His plane was shot down over Europe. He survived and as a POW was liberated by the Russians.
We had an entire nation of brave young men (and women) who served and sacrificed so much.
Thank you for starting this thread TF. And thank you for your service.

Thank you for your service and your family be well.

 

[lilspainishflea]

Prior to meeting my wife I dated the great-granddaughter of the commander of the USS Arizona. His name was Admiral Kidd and he was in command of the battleship task force at Pearl Harbor on the day of the attack. His last efforts were in taking command of the Arizona and trying to get her to sea since she was moored on Battleship Row and was basically a sitting duck. Unfortunately, the Arizona was destroyed by a direct hit on the magazine from a Japanese dive bomb attack and it immediately sunk.

Admiral Kidd's body was never recovered but his Naval Academy class ring was found fused to the bridge. Admiral Kidd was at his post when he was killed, doing everything he could to salvage a bad situation. For his efforts he was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor. Three destroyers have carried his namesake, one of which is currently in service with the USS Teddy Roosevelt carrier strike group.

Thought that was a life story worth sharing.

 

[lilspainishflea]

The Carlin Podcast series that you mention was great. Germany often gets painted with the atrocities paintbrush in WWII, but Japan may have been worse in their treatment of the Chinese, Koreans, etc.

Yep. Germany's atrocities are more well known I think because: 1) they were done using the full strength of the Germany state, i.e., a planned and industrialized effort so there's just more evidence; 2) I think both at the time and subsequently, Americans just focused more on the European front than the war in the Pacific; and 3) Japan's war crimes were somewhat white-washed because they were devoutly anti-Communist so the US government needed their image rehabilitated during the Cold War.

Carlin does a really good job with primary sources. I love his work because he'll quote everything from a 4,000 year old Assyrian monument to a Marine's journal from New Guinea. He does such a good job of helping the listener understand contemporaneous attitudes toward history, which IMO is the only real way to study the field.

 

[TFBaum]

Prior to meeting my wife I dated the great-granddaughter of the commander of the USS Arizona. His name was Admiral Kidd and he was in command of the battleship task force at Pearl Harbor on the day of the attack. His last efforts were in taking command of the Arizona and trying to get her to sea since she was moored on Battleship Row and was basically a sitting duck. Unfortunately, the Arizona was destroyed by a direct hit on the magazine from a Japanese dive bomb attack and it immediately sunk.

Admiral Kidd's body was never recovered but his Naval Academy class ring was found fused to the bridge. Admiral Kidd was at his post when he was killed, doing everything he could to salvage a bad situation. For his efforts he was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor. Three destroyers have carried his namesake, one of which is currently in service with the USS Teddy Roosevelt carrier strike group.

Thought that was a life story worth sharing.

We all knew his story along with Scott and Callahan. Great men.

 

[Papillion]

I am sure your father would feel this way, same as mine: I am reminded of Dick Winters (Band of Brothers) who said “One day my grandson said to me, grandpa were you a hero in the war? And i said to him no I'm not a hero, but I have served in a company full of them.”
They were great Americans in a country full of them.

I wonder how many vets from WWII would have liked to talk if only us Baby Boomers would have asked more questions. I was always told a lot of Vietnam Vets wanted to talk but nobody asked them but the older I've gotten, I see the looks in their faces and I wonder if they really do because of the painful memories. I always regretted not asking my father more. He wasn't in combat until he went on leave in London and got caught in a bombing run but made it out.
I found out after he died that he served at Upottery prepping the invasion forces and was there with the Band of Brothers. Those L4 planes in the movie was my father's squadron, the 91st. I hate the missed opportunities we all seem to take for granted.

 

[Saboteur II]

Something I never read or heard before but was mentioned in a Pearl Harbor story on my local TV morning news: Japan's motive behind the attack was to destroy the U. S. Pacific Fleet and thus keep the U. S. out of the war. If true, that has to go down as the mother of strategic blunders.

Sue for Peace. The carriers being out at sea made that plan obsolete from the start.

 

[DaveTrout]

Following a tour of Pearl Harbor, Adm. Nimitz made 3 observations on why the attack on Pearl Harbor was actually a failure:

1. They attacked on a Sunday. 90% of the force was on leave and not on the ships.
2. They did not destroy the dry docks, which saved the Navy months in repair time. Ships could be towed to the dry dock for repair rather than having to tow them to the mainland
3. They did not destroy the fuel supply.

This is something I read recently and just wanted to share. In any event, Thank you to all who have sacrificed and served. And to those who shared what your fathers and other relatives did during the war, you were raised by some of the bravest men who ever lived.

 

[Parkview57]

I always regretted not asking my father more.

In my case, I think with age I would have been able to frame questions in a more proper way. If the subject came up, my father answered in a most impersonal way (not rude, but more like a history teacher), and always very brief. We younger kids sorta took the cue from my older siblings to refrain from pushing the issue. My oldest brother seemed to know a lot more(May he RIP) but I am not sure how he came across these facts. It always seemed a lot easier for him to answer non family members questions to me. One final thing, my father shared a lot about his life with us kids, but there is that five year, 4 months, and 32 day gap that he skipped, fwiw

 

[USN_Panther]

I had a neighbour who fought in the Battle of the Bulge in a tank. I had no idea that he did that until I was in university. I was home for a weekend and his wife hung a huge red swastika flag on the clothesline. It was a war souvenir of his. A few of the neighbours visited him on that day. Most were a bit upset. I used that as an opportunity to ask him about his service, and he told me. Being in a tank during battle is a dangerous place. He just figured he would die and was thankful he didn't.
This guy was amazing. He ran an appliance shop and did repairs, and sold tires and bikes. He could fix anything. He had an amazing workshop in his basement and as kids we went to see him often to fix stuff, usually our bikes. So did our parents. He wouldn't just fix our stuff, he taught us how to do it. Then would let us use his shop and tools to fix them later.
Amazing man who had all day to do stuff for a bunch of annoying misbehaving kids in his neighbourhood. But a brave and fierce warrior who helped secure the future of Europe.

 

[RaleighPittFan]

I had a neighbour who fought in the Battle of the Bulge in a tank. I had no idea that he did that until I was in university. I was home for a weekend and his wife hung a huge red swastika flag on the clothesline. It was a war souvenir of his. A few of the neighbours visited him on that day. Most were a bit upset. I used that as an opportunity to ask him about his service, and he told me. Being in a tank during battle is a dangerous place. He just figured he would die and was thankful he didn't.
This guy was amazing. He ran an appliance shop and did repairs, and sold tires and bikes. He could fix anything. He had an amazing workshop in his basement and as kids we went to see him often to fix stuff, usually our bikes. So did our parents. He wouldn't just fix our stuff, he taught us how to do it. Then would let us use his shop and tools to fix them later.
Amazing man who had all day to do stuff for a bunch of annoying misbehaving kids in his neighbourhood. But a brave and fierce warrior who helped secure the future of Europe.

My Dad was in Europe for the war, but thankfully the closest he got to combat was guarding German prisioners.

Also, my Dad was drafted while still in HS - they moved to PA from rural Iowa when he was in grade school and was held back a yar.. He came home from Europe to go to 12th grade. He then went to Geneva on the GI Bill.

One of his brothers was in the Pacific and came home with some life long mental scars.

 

[TFBaum]

I had a neighbour who fought in the Battle of the Bulge in a tank. I had no idea that he did that until I was in university. I was home for a weekend and his wife hung a huge red swastika flag on the clothesline. It was a war souvenir of his. A few of the neighbours visited him on that day. Most were a bit upset. I used that as an opportunity to ask him about his service, and he told me. Being in a tank during battle is a dangerous place. He just figured he would die and was thankful he didn't.
This guy was amazing. He ran an appliance shop and did repairs, and sold tires and bikes. He could fix anything. He had an amazing workshop in his basement and as kids we went to see him often to fix stuff, usually our bikes. So did our parents. He wouldn't just fix our stuff, he taught us how to do it. Then would let us use his shop and tools to fix them later.
Amazing man who had all day to do stuff for a bunch of annoying misbehaving kids in his neighbourhood. But a brave and fierce warrior who helped secure the future of Europe.

My father was in the 37th. This was his unit. https://www.army.mil/article/17393/...that_relieved_bastogne_during_battle_of_the_b
Funny story about a Nazi flag. My dad had one also. We don’t know what to do with it. We are trying to donate it to a museum. The only thing my dad would ever say about Bulge was on cold winter nights in PA it was colder during the Bulge