OT: Barry Bonds was Always a Jerk

[mike 301]

I remember standing outside of 3 rivers one night after a game with my kid .
Was hoping for an autograph . He came out with I think it was Jose Lind .
There were about 10 people total and one guy yelled out for him to sign a ball .
The smug look was all I needed to see as he and Lind hopped into his Porsche and drove off . The guy was a total prick as far as i'm concerned and I was glad to see him leave .

 

[Fk_Pitt]

I remember standing outside of 3 rivers one night after a game with my kid .
Was hoping for an autograph . He came out with I think it was Jose Lind .
There were about 10 people total and one guy yelled out for him to sign a ball .
The smug look was all I needed to see as he and Lind hopped into his Porsche and drove off . The guy was a total prick as far as i'm concerned and I was glad to see him leave .

There’s a couple stories the local media talks about. One is incredibly heinous and I forget the specifics so I won’t share. But the other is the one, which isn’t as bad, is where the two members of the stadium grounds crew were killed in a car accident. Bonds knew the guys because he saw them everyday. When bonds was approached to sign a couple baseballs to help pay for expenses for the families, he told them to eff off.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Then there’s the “well everyone was roiding argument”. Yeah well not everyone looked like him. Nobody went from the physique of a soccer player to that of an NFL lineman. And it was proven that he roided.

But then there’s the machine he wore on his elbow, which gave him a foreign apparatus that no one in the history of the game had and hasn’t had since because it’s now against the rules.

For years, sportswriters remarked that his massive “protective” gear – unequaled in all of baseball — permits Bonds to lean over the plate without fear of being hit by a pitch. Thus situated, Bonds can handle the outside pitch (where most pitchers live) unusually well. This is unfair advantage enough, but no longer controversial. However, it is only one of at least seven (largely unexplored) advantages conferred by the apparatus.

The other six:

1) The apparatus is hinged at the elbow. It is a literal “hitting machine” that allows Bonds to release his front arm on the same plane during every swing. It largely accounts for the seemingly magical consistency of every Bonds stroke.

2) The apparatus locks at the elbow when the lead arm is fully elongated because of a small flap at the top of the bottom section that fits into a groove in the bottom of the top section. The locked arm forms a rigid front arm fulcrum that allows extraordinary, maximally efficient explosion of the levers of Bonds’ wrists. Bonds hands are quicker than those of average hitters because of his mechanical “assistant.”


3) When Bonds swings, the weight of the apparatus helps to seal his inner upper arm to his torso at impact. Thus “connected,” he automatically hits the ball with the weight of his entire body – not just his arms – as average hitters (“extending”) tend to do.

4) Bonds has performed less well in Home Run Derbies than one might expect because he has no excuse to wear a “protector” facing a batting practice pitcher. As he tires, his front arm elbow tends to lift and he swings under the ball, producing towering pop flies or topspin liners that stay in the park. When the apparatus is worn, its weight keeps his elbow down and he drives the ball with backspin.

5) Bonds enjoys quicker access to the inside pitch than average hitters because his “assistant” – counter-intuitively – allows him to turn more rapidly. Everyone understands that skaters accelerate their spins by pulling their arms into their torsos, closer to their axes of rotation. When Bonds is confronted with an inside pitch, he spins like a skater because his upper front arm is “assistant”-sealed tightly against the side of his chest.

6) At impact, Bonds has additional mass (the weight of his “assistant”) not available to the average hitter. The combined weight of “assistant” and bat is probably equal to the weight of the lumber wielded by Babe Ruth but with more manageable weight distribution.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Gotta love the Van Slyke story. Instead of breaking up the fight his teammates proceeded to beat Barry up. 😂

And Van Slyke was a jerk too. But compared to Barry, he was a swell guy.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Then there’s the “well everyone was roiding argument”. Yeah well not everyone looked like him. Nobody went from the physique of a soccer player to that of an NFL lineman. And it was proven that he roided.

If you kick everyone who took illegal, performance enhancing drugs during their baseball career out of the Hall of Fame there would be almost no players who played in the 60s through the 90s in there. But as we all know, some performance enhancing drugs are way worse than the performance enhancing drugs that our heroes back in the 70s were taking. Hell, there's a statue of one of those guys outside PNC Park.

And of course Pittsburgh sports fans who love their Stillers complaining about a Pirate who used steroids has to be the most clueless person in the world. There were two teams given "credit" for being pioneers in bringing steroids to the NFL, and one of them played their home games at the same place that Barry Bonds played his home games when he was here.

 

[cbpitt2]

 

[Fk_Pitt]

If you kick everyone who took illegal, performance enhancing drugs during their baseball career out of the Hall of Fame there would be almost no players who played in the 60s through the 90s in there. But as we all know, some performance enhancing drugs are way worse than the performance enhancing drugs that our heroes back in the 70s were taking. Hell, there's a statue of one of those guys outside PNC Park.

And of course Pittsburgh sports fans who love their Stillers complaining about a Pirate who used steroids has to be the most clueless person in the world. There were two teams given "credit" for being pioneers in bringing steroids to the NFL, and one of them played their home games at the same place that Barry Bonds played his home games when he was here.

If you kick everyone who took illegal, performance enhancing drugs during their baseball career out of the Hall of Fame there would be almost no players who played in the 60s through the 90s in there. But as we all know, some performance enhancing drugs are way worse than the performance enhancing drugs that our heroes back in the 70s were taking. Hell, there's a statue of one of those guys outside PNC Park.

And of course Pittsburgh sports fans who love their Stillers complaining about a Pirate who used steroids has to be the most clueless person in the world. There were two teams given "credit" for being pioneers in bringing steroids to the NFL, and one of them played their home games at the same place that Barry Bonds played his home games when he was here.

I always believed that argument was horseshit. The Steelers were introduced to steroids by Steve courson who brought them from South Carolina (USC). We aren’t talking about the SEC South Carolina of today. We are talking about a middling football program prior to the SEC of today. Are we to believe USC was rampid with roids but no other college or NFL team was until the Steelers? Sorry I’m not buying it. Furthermore it wasn’t illegal then.

What made the Steelers great was their drafting of players from historical black colleges. Bill Nunn was the steeler scout who was the utmost authority on black college players. His yearly AA team was like a Bible to NFL scouts. He purposely kept lesser known players like John Stallworth off the team and also intentionally kept players off the radar because he also worked for the Steelers. The Steelers would then draft them in later rounds.

 

[Zepley09]

There are quite a few cheaters in the HoF, David Ortiz, Mike Piazza, Craig Biggio, Edgar Martinez are four I can name off the top of my head. MLB should be consistent who they let in The HoF, if you let one cheater in (which they have) let them all in. I don’t care if they make mention of the cheating but they opened Pandora’s box already. It seems like the “jerks” aren’t getting elected I.e. Bonds, Clemens, Arod.

 

[Parkview57]

It seems like the “jerks” aren’t getting elected I.e. Bonds, Clemens, Arod.

Yes, so it seems and good for the HOF. Bonds quote something to the effect, "Ask my teammates, I was the same 20 years ago as i am now, I didn't give a sh*t then and I don't give a sh*t now." it is presumed he is speaking about what anyone else does or thinks about him. Well good for him, if he doesn't care or give a sh*t if someone cares to vote for him why do you?

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I always believed that argument was horseshit. The Steelers were introduced to steroids by Steve courson who brought them from South Carolina (USC). We aren’t talking about the SEC South Carolina of today. We are talking about a middling football program prior to the SEC of today. Are we to believe USC was rampid with roids but no other college or NFL team was until the Steelers? Sorry I’m not buying it. Furthermore it wasn’t illegal then.

What made the Steelers great was their drafting of players from historical black colleges. Bill Nunn was the steeler scout who was the utmost authority on black college players. His yearly AA team was like a Bible to NFL scouts. He purposely kept lesser known players like John Stallworth off the team and also intentionally kept players off the radar because he also worked for the Steelers. The Steelers would then draft them in later rounds.

Your second paragraph is absolutely true.

Your first paragraph is ridiculous. The Stillers most certainly were NOT introduced to steroids by Courson. I mean Courson certainly admitted that he used them, but he was most certainly not the first Stiller to do so.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

There are quite a few cheaters in the HoF, David Ortiz, Mike Piazza, Craig Biggio, Edgar Martinez are four I can name off the top of my head. MLB should be consistent who they let in The HoF, if you let one cheater in (which they have) let them all in. I don’t care if they make mention of the cheating but they opened Pandora’s box already. It seems like the “jerks” aren’t getting elected I.e. Bonds, Clemens, Arod.

I mean Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame and his whole persona was based on how he cheated every time he pitched from a certain age on. And even got caught doing it.

Serious question, if you kicked all of the cheaters out of the baseball Hall of Fame, would there be anyone left?

 

[thebadby2]

Don’t care. Guy was awesome and should have been a first ballot HOFer.

This is how I see it Ski. When he was a Pirate he was hands down my favorite MLB player. Prickly asshole who was shitty to teammates and fans? Yeah didn’t bother me a bit when he was a 30-30 guy, gold glove and silver slugger winner every year. Arguably the best player of all time, inarguably the best all around 5 tool player of all time until he became a one dimensional juiced up pull hitter. Only guy I can think of who would have given him a run was Griffey Jr, but he couldn’t stay healthy.

 

[thebadby2]

bonds, van slyke, bonilla, man oh man what an outfield. and yes, i know bobby Bo played 3rd a lot more than right field...

One player from that era that i wished panned out more was Jeff King.

Loaded team and a shitload of fun to watch.

 

[thebadby2]

Absolutely. If they broke rules that were in place that enabled them to play at a higher level, then take them out.

In Bonds case, it’s a shame for him because he would have been a HOFer anyways. He was an elite player before steroids. If he wasn’t such a jerk, he’d have had 2 MVPs before leaving Pittsburgh. Terry Pendleton winning mvp was a joke. But so was not voting for Bonds because he was the biggest A-hole in baseball, which is saying something because they mostly all were jerks.

Hard to disagree with most of this. To me his greatness was all when he was an all-around elite player, before he juiced up and became just a home run hitter.

 

[thebadby2]

Haha, its 19 degrees outside, I won't get called back to work until March 6th at the earliest, I can't start drinking High Lifes on Friday afternoon with no Pitt game this weekend plus who needs it with the Panthers doing so well lately , I'm going stir crazy......

Parkview I believe we found some common ground. I just got done burying several High Lifes at a friend’s 55th Bday party tonight, including a rare 32oz cam that I never even knew existed.

any man who favors the Champagne of Beers is OK by me.

 

[thebadby2]

I always believed that argument was horseshit. The Steelers were introduced to steroids by Steve courson who brought them from South Carolina (USC). We aren’t talking about the SEC South Carolina of today. We are talking about a middling football program prior to the SEC of today. Are we to believe USC was rampid with roids but no other college or NFL team was until the Steelers? Sorry I’m not buying it. Furthermore it wasn’t illegal then.

What made the Steelers great was their drafting of players from historical black colleges. Bill Nunn was the steeler scout who was the utmost authority on black college players. His yearly AA team was like a Bible to NFL scouts. He purposely kept lesser known players like John Stallworth off the team and also intentionally kept players off the radar because he also worked for the Steelers. The Steelers would then draft them in later rounds.

I played D1 football in the mid 80s. Everyone, and I mean everyone, was juicing. I had buddies that gained 40 pounds of muscle in their first year of college football without losing any speed or agility. A guy who is one of my best friends to this day came in as a skinny 6’1, 175 pound tailback who could fly-sub 4.4. At the end of freshman year he was 215 and still had the speed.Another close field of mine who played for a rival D1 school went from being a 225 LB to a 295 DT after he transferred from a juco, after football and in grad school back to 220. The F’in punter was juiced. It was rampant in every private gym, the owner of the place I worked out at in my hometown in the off-season—which was full of college and HS football players— went to prison for selling roids.

 

[Parkview57]

a rare 32oz cam that I never even knew existed.

and always keep your eye out during the Holiday Season for stuff like this.....https://www.gearpatrol.com/food/drinks/a670623/miller-high-life-champagne-bottles/

 

[thebadby2]

and always keep your eye out during the Holiday Season for stuff like this.....https://www.gearpatrol.com/food/drinks/a670623/miller-high-life-champagne-bottles/

That is absolutely exquisite.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Your second paragraph is absolutely true.

Your first paragraph is ridiculous. The Stillers most certainly were NOT introduced to steroids by Courson. I mean Courson certainly admitted that he used them, but he was most certainly not the first Stiller to do so.

The Steelers most certainly did not pioneer steroids as you said. The San Diego Chargers did in 1963, which was 15 years before Courson arrived in Pittsburgh. Sure the steeler Oline was starting to dabble before Courson arrived, but they were late to the game compared to some other franchises. Anyone who makes this ridiculous claim against the Steelers is simply trying to rewrite history because of jealousy, or because Courson was the first one to really come out publicly in a significant way.
Here’s a timeline as I remember:

San Diego was like 2-12 in 1962.

Then in 1963, steroid pioneer Alvin Roy joined the staff and introduced steroids to the team and it was said that 90% of the team took them. The Chargers went 11-3 and won the AFL Championship.

Then Roy left the Chargers and went to the Chiefs. He took a 9-5 team and turned them into a 12-2 team and won a super bowl.

Then Roy went to the Cowboys and won a super bowl immediately.

Then Roy went to the Raiders and died, but they won the super bowl.

In the 1970s, steroids had already been glamorized and were in wide consumption. Not by the Steelers. But instead by Alvin Roy, a man who helped four different NFL teams win titles, helped one college team capture an NCAA Championship, and help build a Heisman winner. He was called the Medicine Man. He never worked for the Steelers. The Steelers won their first two championships off their defense and that was around the the time that Roy’s tactics were widely adopted in the league. Guys like Ham, Lambert, LC Greenwood, Dwight white and Ray Mansfield were not known to be users. In 1978 and 1979 the Steelers had their pumped up olines and won Super Bowls with guys like Webster, Kolb and Larry Brown, who probably thanks to roids was a TE turned star tackle. But everyone else had olines that looked like the Steelers. It wasn’t illegal then. But steroids were illegal when Barry Bonds was taking them.

 

[thebadby2]

The Steelers most certainly did not pioneer steroids as you said. The San Diego Chargers did in 1963, which was 15 years before Courson arrived in Pittsburgh. Sure the steeler Oline was starting to dabble before Courson arrived, but they were late to the game compared to some other franchises. Anyone who makes this ridiculous claim against the Steelers is simply trying to rewrite history because of jealousy, or because Courson was the first one to really come out publicly in a significant way.
Here’s a timeline as I remember:

San Diego was like 2-12 in 1962.

Then in 1963, steroid pioneer Alvin Roy joined the staff and introduced steroids to the team and it was said that 90% of the team took them. The Chargers went 11-3 and won the AFL Championship.

Then Roy left the Chargers and went to the Chiefs. He took a 9-5 team and turned them into a 12-2 team and won a super bowl.

Then Roy went to the Cowboys and won a super bowl immediately.

Then Roy went to the Raiders and died, but they won the super bowl.

In the 1970s, steroids had already been glamorized and were in wide consumption. Not by the Steelers. But instead by Alvin Roy, a man who helped four different NFL teams win titles, helped one college team capture an NCAA Championship, and help build a Heisman winner. He was called the Medicine Man. He never worked for the Steelers. The Steelers won their first two championships off their defense and that was around the the time that Roy’s tactics were widely adopted in the league. Guys like Ham, Lambert, LC Greenwood, Dwight white and Ray Mansfield were not known to be users. In 1978 and 1979 the Steelers had their pumped up olines and won Super Bowls with guys like Webster, Kolb and Larry Brown, who probably thanks to roids was a TE turned star tackle. But everyone else had olines that looked like the Steelers. It wasn’t illegal then. But steroids were illegal when Barry Bonds was taking them.

I doubt Lambert ever set foot in a weight room, let alone took roids. He was just the meanest, toughest, angriest MFer on the field in every game he played, and that was enough.

 

[FreeportPanther]

I doubt Lambert ever set foot in a weight room, let alone took roids. He was just the meanest, toughest, angriest MFer on the field in every game he played, and that was enough.

Still is.

 

[mike 301]

I doubt Lambert ever set foot in a weight room, let alone took roids. He was just the meanest, toughest, angriest MFer on the field in every game he played, and that was enough.

I remember hearing rumors of Lambert smoking cigarettes on the side lines ..
Not sure if it was true but thats a bad m'fee . IMO.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

I doubt Lambert ever set foot in a weight room, let alone took roids. He was just the meanest, toughest, angriest MFer on the field in every game he played, and that was enough.

lambert was like 220 tops in his playing days.

 

[mike 301]

lambert was like 220 tops in his playing days.

Yep . Very tall man . And he certainly handled his own ... Truly amazing that size for today patrolling the middle like he did .. He was one of a kind certainly ..

 

[President Stache]

I didn’t see anyone in this thread say otherwise.

I say otherwise

He has his stats due to roids... period

Was he a good player? Yes, was he great? who the heck knows. Ive had players I played with at Pitt that went from singles hitters to homerun hitters due to steroid use. In a year it happened. The guy was a marginal fielder, bad arm, had speed and could hit decently, until he roided up and became the best homerun hitter science could make.

Thats it. He sucked with the game on the line, sucked in the playoffs.

 

[Pantherguy4]

And sucked as a human being!

 

[Fk_Pitt]

I say otherwise

He has his stats due to roids... period

Was he a good player? Yes, was he great? who the heck knows. Ive had players I played with at Pitt that went from singles hitters to homerun hitters due to steroid use. In a year it happened. The guy was a marginal fielder, bad arm, had speed and could hit decently, until he roided up and became the best homerun hitter science could make.

Thats it. He sucked with the game on the line, sucked in the playoffs.

Still, he had an mvp and should have had a 2nd before the roids started. He’d have continued to be an elite player.

The problem is, we will never know because if the roids. So his pre roids sample size was too small.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

And sucked as a human being!

Certainly he’s a first ballot HOF asshole.

 

[Pantherguy4]

Certainly he’s a first ballot HOF asshole.

👍

 

[Millerton24]

Nah, not when you hit 1/3 of your HRs and earn 2/3 of your MVPs after age 35 when it's incredibly obvious you took your juicing to a new level. If he'd just have retired in '99 he's be in the HOF right now.

He should have won 2 more mvp's with pirates

 

[HailtoPitt]

If Bonds should be kept out of the HoF for cheating, should Tom Brady he kept out as well?

 

[CJsE]

He should have won 2 more mvp's with pirates

I mean 1991 he probably should have won it, but none of his other seasons are even close to MVP seasons with the Pirates. He wasn't even the best Pirate outfielder in 86-89.

 

[jtownknowitall]

I mean 1991 he probably should have won it, but none of his other seasons are even close to MVP seasons with the Pirates. He wasn't even the best Pirate outfielder in 86-89.

LOL! Who was?

 

[Panther Parrothead]

A kid in our neighborhood, and a good friend of my brother, was a clubhouse boy for the Pirates during the time Bonds was on the team.

Ask him about Barry Bonds. Complete and total sociopath in the way he treated people. He'd refuse to sign balls and other things that were going to charity, abuse all the employees, and just generally be a complete a$$hole when he didn't even have a reason.

Your comment about his refusal to sign balls for charity brought back memories of when his refusal to sign a ball allegedly caused a person in the Pirates’ front office to have to purchase a “Barry Bonds Autographed Ball” from a dealer, then pass that ball around for the other Pirates players to sign it so that they could donate a Pirates Team Autographed Ball to a charity for auction.

 

[CJsE]

LOL! Who was?

I was mostly joking about the idea that he had MVP caliber seasons those years, he didn't receive a single vote in those seasons for good reason. There are certainly arguments that he was the best performing in the Pirates' outfield each year in those seasons and he was definitely the best over those seasons combined.

But for the sake of the argument

In '86 he hit .223, .416 SLG, and .746 OPS in 113 games.
RJ Reynolds hit .269, .420 SLG, .755 OPS in 118 games.

In '87 he hit .261, .492 SLG, and .821 OPS
Van Slyke hit .293, .507 SLG, and .866 OPS.

In '88 he hit .283, .491 SLG, and .859 OPS.
Van Slyke his .288, .506, and .851 OPS.

In '89 he was the best OF because I thought that Bonilla transitioned to RF that year, but he didn't until the following season. But if he had switched a season earlier...
In '89 Bonds hit .248, .426 SLG, .777 OPS.
Bonilla hit .281, .490 SLG, .848 OPS.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

The cool thing about Courson was he once talked to our school about drug use and was a very open book.

I asked him once about who did what and who didn't. He said "out of respect of the guys I knew who took stuff, I won't mention their names. But, I can tell you the guys who didn't - Greene, Lambert, Ham, LC, etc..."

 

[Fk_Pitt]

So should we throw out all the current HOFers that have cheated? Gotta be consistent right?

Circling back through this thread again and I do find it interesting that most people don’t think Bonds should be in the HOF

It also had me thinking of Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa. They aren’t in either. Nor should they.

When I was a kid, the A’s were my favorite American League team. I used to sit in the bleachers at the Oakland Coliseum and have conversations with players like Jose Canseco,. Dave Henderson and Ricky Henderson. I loved that team. I used to read the sports page every day and the first thing I would do is check the box score from the night before to see if McGwire hit a home run. That was a decade before all the roids stuff. I had McGwire and Canseco bash brother posters on my wall. But even with how I felt about McGwire in my youth, I don’t think he should be considered for the HOF.

All these roiders cheated the game. Their money and celebrity status should be enough for them.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

The cool thing about Courson was he once talked to our school about drug use and was a very open book.

I asked him once about who did what and who didn't. He said "out of respect of the guys I knew who took stuff, I won't mention their names. But, I can tell you the guys who didn't - Greene, Lambert, Ham, LC, etc..."

Nice!!!

Lambert and Ham’s lack of steroid use is pretty much widely accepted. With Lamberts temper, you do have to wonder though. But not with that physique. I had often wondered about Greene though because he had some anger issues at times. Glad to hear this about him.

It bears repeating…the reason why people single out the Steelers is because they won and of Course because of Courson, Webster, and Kolb. But by the time those guys were starting and abusing, the Steelers were already established by their defense.

It reminds me of the famous Fran Tarkington interview about losing to the Steelers in super bowl 9, and citing roid use by Courson and Webster as a reason. Meanwhile Courson at the time might have been a freshmen at USC and Ray Mansfield, who wasn’t a steroid user, lead that offensive line at the Center position. And the defense that shut the Vikings down had guys like Andy Russell, Ham, Lambert, LC and Mean Joe. I don’t think Dwight White even played in that game.

 

[Ski11585]

Circling back through this thread again and I do find it interesting that most people don’t think Bonds should be in the HOF

It also had me thinking of Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa. They aren’t in either. Nor should they.

When I was a kid, the A’s were my favorite American League team. I used to sit in the bleachers at the Oakland Coliseum and have conversations with players like Jose Canseco,. Dave Henderson and Ricky Henderson. I loved that team. I used to read the sports page every day and the first thing I would do is check the box score from the night before to see if McGwire hit a home run. That was a decade before all the roids stuff. I had McGwire and Canseco bash brother posters on my wall. But even with how I felt about McGwire in my youth, I don’t think he should be considered for the HOF.

All these roiders cheated the game. Their money and celebrity status should be enough for them.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. Unless the HOF starts kicking out folks like Gaylord Perry (a known cheater), nobody has any right to moralize.

MLB was fully behind the publicity that came with the HR chases. Bonds is the greatest ball player of my generation and should have been a first ballot vote. No room to bring morality in when it’s not applied evenly.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

We’ll have to agree to disagree. Unless the HOF starts kicking out folks like Gaylord Perry (a known cheater), nobody has any right to moralize.

MLB was fully behind the publicity that came with the HR chases. Bonds is the greatest ball player of my generation and should have been a first ballot vote. No room to bring morality in when it’s not applied evenly.

I think we have a lot of common ground actually. Except on the point about Bonds and Bonds alone. He was one of the biggest cheaters of all time and shouldn’t be there, regardless of what others did. If he had used that machine on his arm and the roids earlier, maybe he’d have hit 1500 Home runs.
Unless there’s a cheaters wing in Cooperstown .

On your point about baseball capitalizing on the publicity, I’m right there with you. And it would be hypocritical if baseball if they kept him out of the HOF, except it’s the writers keeping him out.