What coach would have either of these guys guarding each other? Mismatch on both ends of the court.
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What coach would have either of these guys guarding each other? Mismatch on both ends of the court.
1) You would have a point had Robertson's Cincinnati Royals teams had Lucas, Twyman, and Stokes at the same time, but that wasn't the case. Stokes was struck down by his tragic illness before he could ever play with Robertson (still in college at the time), and Lucas was still in high school.
2) As to the argument about Robertson being the best "point guard" of his era: in the era we're talking about, the distinction between "point guard" and "shooting guard" hadn't really come into being., Guards were GUARDS, period. It IS a valid argument as to who was the best GUARD between Robertson and West. (One could perhaps include Bob Cousy, who better fits the present-day concept of a "point guard", in that discussion, but at the point in time we're taking about, Cousy was on his last legs.)
Right. So all he did upon being traded was promptly lead the team to which he was traded (the couple-of-years-removed-from-expansion Milwaukee Bucks) to the NBA championship.
I'm not sure if you know who Kareem was, or how unbelievably dominant he was in the 70's on that Bucks team, or how horrendous the overall talent level of the NBA was in the early-70's, or how Oscar (yet again) got worse in the '72 playoffs while teammate Bob Dandridge stepped up ... but there's a history lesson you might want to look into before saying he "lead" the Bucks to a title as a way over-the-hill 33 year old.
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-For being far over the hill, he was 32 that year. He was 3rd in the league in assists that year at 8.3 per game and still averaged 20 points per game. And the Bucks were 66-16 that year. And Bob Cousy sucked as a Head Coach. He stunk in Cincy, he stunk in KC, 40% win percentage in 5 years and he tried to tell Big O to stop shooting and scoring. His career 40% win percentage as a head coach was short lived, he was done coaching in 5 years.
-As for the 71 playoffs, when Big O was on the floor, he was +11 or better in every single playoff game except 2. He also averaged 24 ppg and 10 assists in the NBA finals. And the Bucks were 12-2 in the playoffs and walked over the opposition.
Well that's why I said "if that was a matchup you'd try to play", because it would be a really dumb thing to do. But I'm not the person who suggested it. I merely pointed out that the person who had suggested it was nuts, only in a slightly more polite way.
Kevin Durant is fast. Kevin Durant has a 12 inch length advantage. On both ends he would dominate Jerry West.
-Then why didnt he guard Curry in 2016 when Curry torched OKC every game? And Curry doesnt have half the fast trigger as West. Although Durant quit in OKC, and formed an All Star team in Golden State, following Lebron James who quit Miami after guaranteeing 7 titles in a row. Congrats to him. West in his prime puts up 40+ every night against Durant.
The introduction of the 3-point line has reduced the value of a back-to-the-basket Center?
In Wilt's day, EVERY field goal was awarded 2 points. Therefore, the strategy was to shoot from higher percentage locations on the court (i.e., in or around the pivot lane). Many teams built their offense strategies around their Center. How many teams do that today?
They would if they had Wilt ! Who’d stop him Steve Adams !
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STOP Wilt? You can't even put that word and that name in the same sentence. The most effective against him was Bill Russell.
jordan
lebron
durant
barkley
hakeem
jordan and lebron - best players ever, they do it all
durant - finesse and outside shooting with center height
barkley - toughness, grit, and attitude
hakeem - dominant inside big man
lebron
durant
barkley
hakeem
jordan and lebron - best players ever, they do it all
durant - finesse and outside shooting with center height
barkley - toughness, grit, and attitude
hakeem - dominant inside big man
And then they go up to the other end and Durant scores on basically every possession. Just how on earth do you think West is going to guard Durant if he goes down into the post? How is he going to stop him if he stands at the three point line and shoots over him all night long?
Durant would destroy West if they matched up together. As has been pointed out previously, no one with even a shred of sanity is going to allow West to try to guard Durant.
-Thats because West wouldnt be covering Durant, Robertson would. 2nd time Ive said this. My starting 5 averages 140ppg in career NBA PPG, we can use playoff stats too. Im not worried about Durant. You have to outscore me, this isnt a Jamie Dixon team. My team is built on run and gun outscoring you.
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Haha. This is hilarious. O still one of the best defenders of all time, too, Steel?
Your first point is entirely accurate, my fault.
Still, the 1962 Royals were an underachieving team -- Bob Boozer, Wayne Embry, Big O, and Twyman. Lost 3-1 to the 37 win Pistons in the first round. The next year was more of the same. The big win total increase came in 64 once they got Lucas, who averaged 18 points and 18 board as a rookie while shooting 53% despite being an inside/outside guy.
I do think there was a point guard vs. shooting guard differentiation then. Jerry West was moved from 2 guard to 1 guard when they got Gail Goodrich, which meant his assists increased as primary ball handler. The SIZE between 1 and 2 guards wasn't notable then like it was in later eras.
Likewise, look at the Celtics, the closest thing to a less-position oriented motion offense in that era I believe. In 1964, there was no doubt that KC Jones was more the point guard and Sam Jones more the shooting guard. KC got more assists, dribbled it up the court (often with his back to the basket to defer pressure as was done then) and passed to Sam Jones, who got a lot more points. Even in their pre-Princeton-ish offense, there was still a PG and a SG. The SG would play more on the wing and cut through to get post passes from from their bigs.
As for the domination of Wilt, I think the counter argument to him, is, and always will be, that he didn't win more championships. In college or the pros. The 67 Sixers and 72 Lakers are considered two of the best teams of all time, but neither managed to win a second title.
67 was the best version of Wilt as far as I know. The year he was very focused. 24/24/7 and didn't get into his weird later years Laker habit of sometimes going a whole half without taking a shot as if he was too tired or bored to try to score anymore.
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Wilt's biggest problem was between his ears. He didn't like being Goliath. If Wilt had had the mindset of Michael Jordan, Bill Russell would have about half the rings that he currently has. Wilt was embarrassed to go after an injured Willis Reed in 1970. MJ would have been offended if a team put out an injured player against him, and would have dunked on the guy every time down the floor until they took him out.
Wilt was sensitive to criticisms of being a ball hog and "all he does is score", so much so that later in his career, he was so determined to "show them", that he passed up shots. Indeed he passed up shots so much that he actually led the league in assists one year. Then, after he did that, he literally said (as to address those critics) "NOW are you satisfied?".
Good discussion. Wilt's shrink was underpaid. Or maybe not because they never got him to take a reasonable approach to free throws. Guy still had fun despite his issues.
My favorite type of players are smart, tough defenders who may have been underrated because they didn't score a ton of points -- Bobby Jones, Andre Iguodala, Dennis Johnson, Joe Dumars. The kind of guys who could win finals MVP because that's when we put aside the stats and watch all the games and can see how important they are.
Also I love players who can barely jump but would beat you with strength and smarts/fundamentals -- Duncan, Nash, and Andre Miller come to mind. Becky Hammon on the women's side.
My favorite type of players are smart, tough defenders who may have been underrated because they didn't score a ton of points -- Bobby Jones, Andre Iguodala, Dennis Johnson, Joe Dumars. The kind of guys who could win finals MVP because that's when we put aside the stats and watch all the games and can see how important they are.
Also I love players who can barely jump but would beat you with strength and smarts/fundamentals -- Duncan, Nash, and Andre Miller come to mind. Becky Hammon on the women's side.
I will keep Nash and substitute Russell for Wilt since I don't think Wilt, LeBron and MJ can coexist with one basketball.
PG - Nash ($2)
SG - Jordan($5)
SF - LeBron($5)
PF - Garnett ($1)
C - Russell ($2)
Between MJ, Kobe, Wilt, and AI, who kills whom first because they're not touching the ball enough?
lol not my problem, i’m just the gm that wants to put the most talent on the court as possible. I’ll let my coach Phil Jackson figure that out.
Haha my answer would definitely be different if I didn't take team chemistry into account. I want good teammates! That's just as important as their ability to shoot or defend.
This discussion does lead to an interesting sub-topic, which is how much should a GM upset a team's chemistry when pursuing talent. Or how to balance a great individual player, if you have a chance to get one, if they haven't shown themselves to necessarily be a great "winner".
I do think Ainge has had the right approach of you try to get high draft picks, keep a young core together, and then add talent to that through trades. But much like Pop and Buford, hard to say how much is the coach and how much is the GM.
The other way to win is just hope a Lebron James level legend is born in your city or enjoys vacationing there. The Lakers may make their comeback that way someday.
I do think Ainge has had the right approach of you try to get high draft picks, keep a young core together, and then add talent to that through trades. But much like Pop and Buford, hard to say how much is the coach and how much is the GM.
The other way to win is just hope a Lebron James level legend is born in your city or enjoys vacationing there. The Lakers may make their comeback that way someday.
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