OT - Dan Fisher - can’t win the big one

[TD_6082]

So your argument for Duzz to me was that he raised the expectations that 8-4 is a disappointment. Wouldn’t that be the exact same thing for Dixon!?? How do you not see that JUST making the NCAA tournament given the decade pre-Ben and the 7 years since is LITERALLY the exact same thing you’re using to defend Duzz.

Basketball & football are two different sports. So the comparisons aren't really apple and oranges.

FWIW, Jamie took over a solid program. 57-11 overall, 26-6 in conference with 2 BE titles and a BE tournament title, back to back Sweet 16 appearances. He left Pitt in a considerably worse position in 2016.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

Basketball & football are two different sports. So the comparisons aren't really apple and oranges.

FWIW, Jamie took over a solid program. 57-11 overall, 26-6 in conference with 2 BE titles and a BE tournament title, back to back Sweet 16 appearances. He left Pitt in a considerably worse position in 2016.

Considerably worse? Hyperbole anyone???

Every program, even the elite programs, have down years. 'Nova has down years. Kentucky has down years. UNC has down years. The last 2 or 3 years of Dixon's tenure here were not up to his standards of winning 28+ games a year, sometimes 30. They were "only" at 20 or 24 wins. As much as you think you can say he left the program worse when he left, I can say he made the program stronger for the long term and would have been back at 25+ wins very soon. The problem was he wasn't here to prove that and the idiotic Pitt administration and big mouth, airhead boosters wanted someone different.

So here we are with a floundering program (and that's being kind) that is way worse off than how Dixon left it when he left, after 6 years! Capel appears to be making some progress with his team and with recruiting FOR THIS ONE YEAR ONLY. But until he's winning 20+ games a year and in the NCAAT 4 out of 5 years and in the NIT in the off year, he's not the answer. He needs to produce results and he hasn't done that yet.

 

[TD_6082]

Considerably worse? Hyperbole anyone???

Every program, even the elite programs, have down years. 'Nova has down years. Kentucky has down years. UNC has down years. The last 2 or 3 years of Dixon's tenure here were not up to his standards of winning 28+ games a year, sometimes 30. They were "only" at 20 or 24 wins. As much as you think you can say he left the program worse when he left, I can say he made the program stronger for the long term and would have been back at 25+ wins very soon. The problem was he wasn't here to prove that and the idiotic Pitt administration and big mouth, airhead boosters wanted someone different.

So here we are with a floundering program (and that's being kind) that is way worse off than how Dixon left it when he left, after 6 years! Capel appears to be making some progress with his team and with recruiting FOR THIS ONE YEAR ONLY. But until he's winning 20+ games a year and in the NCAAT 4 out of 5 years and in the NIT in the off year, he's not the answer. He needs to produce results and he hasn't done that yet.

20 wins and just making the tournament isn't good enough.

Why do you think he would have brought the program back to where it was from 2004-2011? Nothing he's done at TCU would suggest that. It pretty much confirms that he would have delivered more of the same.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

Basketball & football are two different sports. So the comparisons aren't really apple and oranges.

FWIW, Jamie took over a solid program. 57-11 overall, 26-6 in conference with 2 BE titles and a BE tournament title, back to back Sweet 16 appearances. He left Pitt in a considerably worse position in 2016.

And Ben told him not to take it because it wasn’t possible to maintain that at Pitt. Then he raised the bar so much dumbasses 7 losing seasons later could argue about whether or not a team that was making the NCAA Tournament every year was good enough.

Comparing apples and oranges, think forcing Dave Wannstedt out except less success, more success after with the debacles they had. The wanny debacle isn’t even close to as bad as what transpired after Jamie. Not even a little bit

And now you e earned my fist ignore because you clearly don’t know college hoops at all.

 

[pittjas]

And Ben told him not to take it because it wasn’t possible to maintain that at Pitt. Then he raised the bar so much dumbasses 7 losing seasons later could argue about whether or not a team that was making the NCAA Tournament every year was good enough.

Comparing apples and oranges, think forcing Dave Wannstedt out except less success, more success after with the debacles they had. The wanny debacle isn’t even close to as bad as what transpired after Jamie. Not even a little bit

And now you e earned my fist ignore because you clearly don’t know college hoops at all.

Jamie’s initial run here was one of the greatest coaching jobs ever. Legendary stuff. Just a bunch of things that came together at the right time and built this perfect storm where he really was a Top 10 coach. New facility, Penguins sucked, inherited a good program, Big East was great conference, and he was a good coach. Perfect storm.

It was clear with the move to the ACC and as the game started to change he wasn’t going to be able to keep Pitt at the level he once had them. But he’d still have us relevant and in the tourney most years, even if it was moreso as 6-10 seeds rather than the 1-3 seeds we got used to.

Even at TCU you’ve seen he consistently has a solid program, nothing special, but never bad either. He’s just a really solid coach. Not Top 5 or 10 or anything but someone who will give you consistent results.

Which should be good enough at a place like Pitt. And sounds a lot like Narduzzi too.

There’s a lot of similarities between post 2012 Dixon and Narduzzi.

 

[TD_6082]

And Ben told him not to take it because it wasn’t possible to maintain that at Pitt. Then he raised the bar so much dumbasses 7 losing seasons later could argue about whether or not a team that was making the NCAA Tournament every year was good enough.

Comparing apples and oranges, think forcing Dave Wannstedt out except less success, more success after with the debacles they had. The wanny debacle isn’t even close to as bad as what transpired after Jamie. Not even a little bit

And now you e earned my fist ignore because you clearly don’t know college hoops at all.

I call BS on this.

#1. The bump up in pay alone from an Asst Coach to HC makes taking the job a no-brainer. So, terrible advice.

#2. Ben lecturing anybody about dealing with sustainability and unreasonable expectations while taking the UCLA job is comedic gold.

Jamie wasn't making the NCAA tournament every year.
And lots of schools have fired coaches in years in which they make the NCAA tournament. That's nothing new. Hell, I lived outside of Knoxville when they sucked every bit as bad as Pitt does now. They hired Jerry Green & he took the Vols to 4 straight 20 seasons and made the NCAA tournament all 4 years. ...and they fired his ass. Not even a basketball school.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

Jamie’s initial run here was one of the greatest coaching jobs ever. Legendary stuff. Just a bunch of things that came together at the right time and built this perfect storm where he really was a Top 10 coach. New facility, Penguins sucked, inherited a good program, Big East was great conference, and he was a good coach. Perfect storm.

It was clear with the move to the ACC and as the game started to change he wasn’t going to be able to keep Pitt at the level he once had them. But he’d still have us relevant and in the tourney most years, even if it was moreso as 6-10 seeds rather than the 1-3 seeds we got used to.

Even at TCU you’ve seen he consistently has a solid program, nothing special, but never bad either. He’s just a really solid coach. Not Top 5 or 10 or anything but someone who will give you consistent results.

Which should be good enough at a place like Pitt. And sounds a lot like Narduzzi too.

There’s a lot of similarities between post 2012 Dixon and Narduzzi.

Correct. Narduzzi certainly hasn’t ever approached what Dixon did pre 2012

 

[pittchagg]

He didn’t get over the hump and do it, but Jamie proved that he could build a title-level team here. When you have a coach who has proven to be able to do that, it’s the responsibility of the athletic director to give that coach all of the resources that the coach needs to continue to succeed. Barnes pretty plainly failed in that regard.

 

[TD_6082]

Correct. Narduzzi certainly hasn’t ever approached what Dixon did pre 2012

Narduzzi doesn't coach basketball. Jamie Dixon doesn't coach football.

Coach Cal has done a helluva lot more than Stoops ever will at UK. Cat fans would be elated if Cal bolted and pissed if Stoops did. So yeah... the analogies between different sports is rather ridiculous, imo.

 

[TheSpecialSauce]

And Ben told him not to take it because it wasn’t possible to maintain that at Pitt. Then he raised the bar so much dumbasses 7 losing seasons later could argue about whether or not a team that was making the NCAA Tournament every year was good enough.

Comparing apples and oranges, think forcing Dave Wannstedt out except less success, more success after with the debacles they had. The wanny debacle isn’t even close to as bad as what transpired after Jamie. Not even a little bit

And now you e earned my fist ignore because you clearly don’t know college hoops at all.

The first sentence makes absolutely no sense. The pieces were in place, the players liked him, he liked Pittsburgh, and he was getting a massive increase in salary. The rest of the paragraph is accurate.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

20 wins and just making the tournament isn't good enough.

Why do you think he would have brought the program back to where it was from 2004-2011? Nothing he's done at TCU would suggest that. It pretty much confirms that he would have delivered more of the same.

Here's some evidence that Dixon would have brought the program back to close to where it was from 2003 - 2014.

In 2009, he was the head coach for the FIBA Under-19 2009 gold-medal winning United States national basketball team for which he was named the 2009 USA Basketball National Coach of the Year. Dixon was named Big East Coach of the Year in 2004, Naismith College Coach of the Year in 2009, Jim Phelan National Coach of the Year in 2010, and the Sporting News National Coach of the Year award in 2011.

Dixon won Big East Coach of the Year honors in 2004 for leading Pitt to a school-record 31 wins and the Big East regular season championship. He took Pitt to the final game of the Big East men's basketball tournament in 2004, 2006, 2007 and 2008, winning the 2008 Big East tournament Championship against No.1 seed Georgetown. He is Pitt's first and only head coach to guide the Panthers to seven consecutive NCAA tournament appearances and seven consecutive seasons of at least 20 overall wins and 10 league wins.

His success at Pitt continued through the 2010 season, perhaps his best coaching performance to date. The Panthers tied for second place in the Big East and earned a No.2 seed in the Big East tournament, despite being picked to finish 9th in the conference preseason poll. Dixon guided Pitt to yet another NCAA Tournament appearance, their seventh in his first seven years as head coach, and was awarded both the Big East Coach of the Year and Jim Phelan National Coach of the Year Awards by CollegeInsider.com. He is the first and only head coach in Pitt's history to lead his team to seven consecutive NCAA tournament appearances. At the end of the 2010 season, Dixon is the winningest coach in Big East history with a current .721 winning percentage in eight seasons of league games (98–38). He also stands second on Pitt's all-time wins list, behind only the legendary Doc Carlson.

On March 21, 2016, Dixon accepted the head coaching position at his alma mater. In his first season in Fort Worth, he led the Horned Frogs to their best Big 12 conference record (6–12) since joining the league in 2012–13, their first-ever program win over a #1-ranked team, their first Big 12 Tournament semifinal game, and the NIT championship.[citation needed] In 2017–18, the school reached the NCAA Tournament for the first time in 20 years. The following season, Dixon coached them to their third straight 20-win season. Dixon's TCU team is 8-1 so far in 2022-2023.

I know he's not the best coach out there. But he's head and shoulders above anyone that Pitt interviewed as his replacement and certainly better than Capel. He's proven he could have continued making this Pitt program at least competitive and excellent again.

I know it's speculation since nothing is ever definite in sports. It's like the stock market...you speculate on what you believe gives you the best chance of making the most money. Dixon would have been a better choice to do that instead of either of the coaches we've had since then, at least to this point.

 

[CrazyPaco]

And Ben told him not to take it because it wasn’t possible to maintain that at Pitt. Then he raised the bar so much dumbasses 7 losing seasons later could argue about whether or not a team that was making the NCAA Tournament every year was good enough.

Comparing apples and oranges, think forcing Dave Wannstedt out except less success, more success after with the debacles they had. The wanny debacle isn’t even close to as bad as what transpired after Jamie. Not even a little bit

And now you e earned my fist ignore because you clearly don’t know college hoops at all.

You really have to go back to forcing out Jock Sutherland for something comparably moronic on the football side. I mean, Hagan instituting Code Bowman was worse, but the debacle with Jamie is probably the #2 stupidest thing the university has ever done to its own athletic programs. Certainly the dumbest booster influenced thing.

 

[TD_6082]

Here's some evidence that Dixon would have brought the program back to close to where it was from 2003 - 2014.

In 2009, he was the head coach for the FIBA Under-19 2009 gold-medal winning United States national basketball team for which he was named the 2009 USA Basketball National Coach of the Year. Dixon was named Big East Coach of the Year in 2004, Naismith College Coach of the Year in 2009, Jim Phelan National Coach of the Year in 2010, and the Sporting News National Coach of the Year award in 2011.

Dixon won Big East Coach of the Year honors in 2004 for leading Pitt to a school-record 31 wins and the Big East regular season championship. He took Pitt to the final game of the Big East men's basketball tournament in 2004, 2006, 2007 and 2008, winning the 2008 Big East tournament Championship against No.1 seed Georgetown. He is Pitt's first and only head coach to guide the Panthers to seven consecutive NCAA tournament appearances and seven consecutive seasons of at least 20 overall wins and 10 league wins.

His success at Pitt continued through the 2010 season, perhaps his best coaching performance to date. The Panthers tied for second place in the Big East and earned a No.2 seed in the Big East tournament, despite being picked to finish 9th in the conference preseason poll. Dixon guided Pitt to yet another NCAA Tournament appearance, their seventh in his first seven years as head coach, and was awarded both the Big East Coach of the Year and Jim Phelan National Coach of the Year Awards by CollegeInsider.com. He is the first and only head coach in Pitt's history to lead his team to seven consecutive NCAA tournament appearances. At the end of the 2010 season, Dixon is the winningest coach in Big East history with a current .721 winning percentage in eight seasons of league games (98–38). He also stands second on Pitt's all-time wins list, behind only the legendary Doc Carlson.

On March 21, 2016, Dixon accepted the head coaching position at his alma mater. In his first season in Fort Worth, he led the Horned Frogs to their best Big 12 conference record (6–12) since joining the league in 2012–13, their first-ever program win over a #1-ranked team, their first Big 12 Tournament semifinal game, and the NIT championship.[citation needed] In 2017–18, the school reached the NCAA Tournament for the first time in 20 years. The following season, Dixon coached them to their third straight 20-win season. Dixon's TCU team is 8-1 so far in 2022-2023.

I know he's not the best coach out there. But he's head and shoulders above anyone that Pitt interviewed as his replacement and certainly better than Capel. He's proven he could have continued making this Pitt program at least competitive and excellent again.

I know it's speculation since nothing is ever definite in sports. It's like the stock market...you speculate on what you believe gives you the best chance of making the most money. Dixon would have been a better choice to do that instead of either of the coaches we've had since then, at least to this point.

Coach of the Year Awards are meaningless, tbh. I think Walt Harris won BE COY the year he was canned.

The TCU paragraph looks like it came straight from the TCU media guide or SID, btw

5 years, especially in hoops, is a long time. I just saw nothing in his last 5 years that indicated he was anywhere close to returning the program to the previous highs in the first 8 years of his tenure. And let's be real here, one thing Dixon proved throughout his entire tenure at Pitt that never changed, is that putting together a team capable of making a deep run in March was not his strong suit. That's a problem.

Again, I'm not arguing that he should have been fired or that any of his replacements are better. I'm just saying that this is the nature of the business - if a coach gets stuck in a 5 year period of mediocrity, they are going to be viewed as expendable at most schools. The football comparison is valid here. If Duzz puts together 3 or 4 more years of 7 to 8 win football without any ACC Championship game appearances, he will be viewed as expendable also, regardless of the quality of potential replacements. That's just the way the business works.

 

[pittchagg]

Coach of the Year Awards are meaningless, tbh. I think Walt Harris won BE COY the year he was canned.

The TCU paragraph looks like it came straight from the TCU media guide or SID, btw

5 years, especially in hoops, is a long time. I just saw nothing in his last 5 years that indicated he was anywhere close to returning the program to the previous highs in the first 8 years of his tenure. And let's be real here, one thing Dixon proved throughout his entire tenure at Pitt that never changed, is that putting together a team capable of making a deep run in March was not his strong suit. That's a problem.

Again, I'm not arguing that he should have been fired or that any of his replacements are better. I'm just saying that this is the nature of the business - if a coach gets stuck in a 5 year period of mediocrity, they are going to be viewed as expendable at most schools. The football comparison is valid here. If Duzz puts together 3 or 4 more years of 7 to 8 win football without any ACC Championship game appearances, he will be viewed as expendable also, regardless of the quality of potential replacements. That's just the way the business works.

Five year run of mediocrity is arguable.

Kenpom:

2015-16: #37
2014-15: #78
2013-14: #16
2012-13: #11
2011-12: #64

We won 140 games in that five year span. Three of those five teams were very good on the floor, and two of them were borderline elite.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

Five year run of mediocrity is arguable.

Kenpom:

2015-16: #37
2014-15: #78
2013-14: #16
2012-13: #11
2011-12: #64

We won 140 games in that five year span. Three of those five teams were very good on the floor, and two of them were borderline elite.

Exactly. I don't know where some guys get this false narrative about the last 5 years of Dixon were poor years or years that justified the foolishness of the then AD and his minions (truckster doofus and other boosters with big mouths and no brains). They were fun to watch and they won a lot of games. That's why I dismiss anyone who posts those lies. They're just not right. His record and that of the Pitt team in those years speaks for itself.

I'll jump on Capel's bandwagon when he can produce 2 years in a row of 20+ wins and at least 1 NCAAT appearance. Until then, he's just another coach in a line of coaches that replaced Dixon and needs replaced himself. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there and Capel is wearing Milk Bone underwear.

 

[TD_6082]

Exactly. I don't know where some guys get this false narrative about the last 5 years of Dixon were poor years or years that justified the foolishness of the then AD and his minions (truckster doofus and other boosters with big mouths and no brains). They were fun to watch and they won a lot of games. That's why I dismiss anyone who posts those lies. They're just not right. His record and that of the Pitt team in those years speaks for itself.

I'll jump on Capel's bandwagon when he can produce 2 years in a row of 20+ wins and at least 1 NCAAT appearance. Until then, he's just another coach in a line of coaches that replaced Dixon and needs replaced himself. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there and Capel is wearing Milk Bone underwear.

Its not a false narrative. His conference record in his last 5 years at Pitt was .500. He only made the NCAA tournament in 3 of his last 5 years (once as an 8 seed, once a 9, and once a 10) and never made it past the first weekend. His OOC schedule was never anything to write home about in those years and those teams weren't entertaining, in my opinion.

And fwiw, Jamie Dixon hasn't taken TCU to back to back NCAA tournament appearances yet.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

And fwiw, Jamie Dixon hasn't taken TCU to back to back NCAA tournament appearances yet.

NCAA tournament appearances

1952, 1953, 1959, 1968, 1971, 1987, 1998, 2018, 2022 He made the tournament as many times in the last five years as they had from 1972 to 2016. They also won their first tournament game since 1987. They also won their first ever NIT title; they had only ever been to six NITs ever as well. If they make the tournament again this year, which seems quite possible since they have an AP ranking, it'll be the first back to back since 1953. That's a pretty incredible job for a historic cellar dweller. This isn't getting the UCLA job in terms of expectations.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

NCAA tournament appearances

1952, 1953, 1959, 1968, 1971, 1987, 1998, 2018, 2022 He made the tournament as many times in the last five years as they had from 1972 to 2016. They also won their first tournament game since 1987. They also won their first ever NIT title; they had only ever been to six NITs ever as well. If they make the tournament again this year, which seems quite possible since they have an AP ranking, it'll be the first back to back since 1953. That's a pretty incredible job for a historic cellar dweller. This isn't getting the UCLA job in terms of expectations.

Its really not. Jamie is a good coach and TCU barely funded basketball for its entire history. In fact, they played in leagues which only sent 1-3 teams to the NCAAT up until 10 years ago. It would be like if Shaka Smart takes the Duquesne job and then makes some NCAA Tournaments and we say he's done an incredible job since Duquesne has sucked for 50 years. Shaka is a good coach and my expectation is that he would recruit well enough to have Duquesne playing in the NCAAT. A team is just a coach. What you did in 1970 has no relevance.