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OT.....Pirates and Nutting

The margin for error is tiny for a small market club. You're one terrible contract away from being the Reds. Expanding your margin for error is the only place payroll matters. The Dodgers can pay Carl Crawford $30MM to play in AAA and be unaffected. The Red Sox can give out horrible deals to Rusney Castillo and Pablo Sandoval and be fine. A small market team can't do that.

This is what Baseball Prospectus wrote about the Cueto signing for the Giants. BP is a feeder site for front offices, guys write there for a year or two and then get hired by MLB teams. This excerpt essentially lays out the general plan for every MLB team when it comes to maxing out their payroll and going "all-in" -- and for a small market team this sort of timing is even more critical:

"Brian Sabean (Giants' GM) is taking the risk anyway, because the Giants are in as good a position to make a leveraged bet as they’re likely to be for a long while. They’re an expensive team, these days: Cueto will become their seventh eight-figure investment for 2016, and he pushes their projected payroll into the $170 million range. Maybe they can afford that, but they can’t throw it around lightly. Some of the vital members of this core are moving toward the end of either their team control or their prime seasons, and that applies both time and financial pressure to the pursuit of another title or two.

The bullpen is old. Hunter Pence is old. Angel Pagan is headed for free agency. Brandon Crawford and Buster Posey are both 29, and while they’re both great, Posey is already expensive, and Crawford is about to be. The Giants are on the hook with them well into their 30s. The farm system is bad. So the time is now."


The Cardinals are doing the same thing right now. They're old, their farm system is bare, their payroll is probably a little bloated -- now is when you sign dumb contracts like Mike Leake. The window looks like it's about closed, so you just throw caution to the wind and screw the consequences because you're about to rebuild anyway.

That's what the Pirates will need to do in a few years, and I've consistently said that. Make their big moves when the farm system is barren and the team is old and you're just trying to extend your window by another year or two. If you make that move too early as a small market team, you become the Reds or Brewers or Twins. Your payroll is maxed out with bad contracts you can't move, and you just sit in small market purgatory where your payroll is like 15th in the majors but your team is terrible and you can't trade anyone because nobody wants the contract (Joey Votto and Homer Bailey).

On the Cubs, they signed Lester to a big deal but they're paying Lackey about what Liriano got from the Pirates and they acquired Jake Arrieta for peanuts in a trade when the Orioles gave up on him. I don't consider Lackey or Arrieta moves to be "go for it" moves, although they've certainly worked out very well. Similar to Cervelli or Kang for the Pirates.

Epstein has also has said they likely won't extend Arrieta, because they don't feel comfortable going 5-6 years on a contract with him. The Cubs, IMO, didn't spend their way to anything. I mean, they're still paying Edwin Jackson almost $14MM this season to be a middle reliever in some other organization's farm system.
 
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Nutsack's crew putting up a good fight tonight:15-1 with a couple innings to go. Great stuff.
 
The margin for error is tiny for a small market club. You're one terrible contract away from being the Reds. Expanding your margin for error is the only place payroll matters. The Dodgers can pay Carl Crawford $30MM to play in AAA and be unaffected. The Red Sox can give out horrible deals to Rusney Castillo and Pablo Sandoval and be fine. A small market team can't do that.

This is what Baseball Prospectus wrote about the Cueto signing for the Giants. BP is a feeder site for front offices, guys write there for a year or two and then get hired by MLB teams. This excerpt essentially lays out the general plan for every MLB team when it comes to maxing out their payroll and going "all-in" -- and for a small market team this sort of timing is even more critical:

"Brian Sabean (Giants' GM) is taking the risk anyway, because the Giants are in as good a position to make a leveraged bet as they’re likely to be for a long while. They’re an expensive team, these days: Cueto will become their seventh eight-figure investment for 2016, and he pushes their projected payroll into the $170 million range. Maybe they can afford that, but they can’t throw it around lightly. Some of the vital members of this core are moving toward the end of either their team control or their prime seasons, and that applies both time and financial pressure to the pursuit of another title or two.

The bullpen is old. Hunter Pence is old. Angel Pagan is headed for free agency. Brandon Crawford and Buster Posey are both 29, and while they’re both great, Posey is already expensive, and Crawford is about to be. The Giants are on the hook with them well into their 30s. The farm system is bad. So the time is now."


The Cardinals are doing the same thing right now. They're old, their farm system is bare, their payroll is probably a little bloated -- now is when you sign dumb contracts like Mike Leake. The window looks like it's about closed, so you just throw caution to the wind and screw the consequences because you're about to rebuild anyway.

That's what the Pirates will need to do in a few years, and I've consistently said that. Make their big moves when the farm system is barren and the team is old and you're just trying to extend your window by another year or two. If you make that move too early as a small market team, you become the Reds or Brewers or Twins. Your payroll is maxed out with bad contracts you can't move, and you just sit in small market purgatory where your payroll is like 15th in the majors but your team is terrible and you can't trade anyone because nobody wants the contract (Joey Votto and Homer Bailey).

On the Cubs, they signed Lester to a big deal but they're paying Lackey about what Liriano got from the Pirates and they acquired Jake Arrieta for peanuts in a trade when the Orioles gave up on him. I don't consider Lackey or Arrieta moves to be "go for it" moves, although they've certainly worked out very well. Similar to Cervelli or Kang for the Pirates.

Epstein has also has said they likely won't extend Arrieta, because they don't feel comfortable going 5-6 years on a contract with him. The Cubs, IMO, didn't spend their way to anything. I mean, they're still paying Edwin Jackson almost $14MM this season to be a middle reliever in some other organization's farm system.
Everything you said is fair for the most part. Although I think the Cubs deserve some credit for acquiring the pitching that is now leading their team. I will say that it is damn frustrating knowing the Pirates chances of winning a World Series are abourt the same as finding a needle in a haystack.
 
Everything you said is fair for the most part. Although I think the Cubs deserve some credit for acquiring the pitching that is now leading their team. I will say that it is damn frustrating knowing the Pirates chances of winning a World Series are abourt the same as finding a needle in a haystack.

I definitely wouldn't want to diminish the Cubs' pitching moves, they've been excellent moves, I just don't think they approached them THAT differently than the Pirates tend to approach theirs from a pure process standpoint. Arrieta was a reclamation project who Baltimore thought was a relief pitcher. Cubs traded for him for pretty much nothing. Lackey was a free agent along the lines of Francisco Liriano. Mid-level type guy. I don't think the Pirates have shown an unwillingness to enter into a mid-level contract (provided they have spots in the rotation) or buy low on reclamation projects.

Like I said, I don't think their moves should be diminished, I just don't think Lackey and Arrieta were the type of moves the Pirates can't/won't make. The Cubs' just worked out really, really well.

RE: the Pirates' chances being minuscule -- they are, but they're long for all teams. Baseball is so random and unpredictable from day to day and so many of the players are extremely volatile (pitchers, mostly) that it's extremely rare for the best team to win the World Series. The best way to win it is to make the playoffs consistently.

If the Pirates are smart, they can compete. You'll always have some teams rebuilding and some teams who have spent themselves out of contention, so that eliminates part of the field right there. If you can just maximize your window of competitiveness and can time your spending binge right, you can have a decent stretch of consistent playoff appearances.

It's why a lot of the more national sites like the Pirates a lot. They step back a bit from everything and see a young core of solid talent, a strong farm system, and no bad contracts on the books and it pretty much provides endless opportunity for the next few years, barring some rash of injuries.
 
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The Pirates stink this year, obviously, but their long-term prospects are still very good. The future is dependent on the top level prospects (Glasnow, Taillon, Bell, Meadows) panning out, Diaz coming back strong, and at least one of Hanson/Moroff making an impact. As important is what they can eventually get in return for McCutchen. Cutch, as much as he is loved, is obviously the biggest trade chip and plays what is our most replaceable position.

The difference between us and some of the other small market clubs is that our young core is still one of the best, with or without McCutchen.
 
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NH admitted as much on one of his sunday radio shows, that basically this season is on him and he has to do better........The question is if this season goes down the drain can he make the necessary moves for a 2017 bounceback
 
NH admitted as much on one of his sunday radio shows, that basically this season is on him and he has to do better........The question is if this season goes down the drain can he make the necessary moves for a 2017 bounceback

He is a smart guy, I'm not too sure if I buy his contrition. Is there any way he could have expected improvement given the lack of quality pitching moves he made? My theory is that he intentionally did very little to avoid a backslide this season. From his perspective, it is much easier to orchestrate trades and make major moves if the team is suffering through a losing season. His eye was always on next year and beyond. Of course he can't come out and say he is punting 2016 though.
 
He is a smart guy, I'm not too sure if I buy his contrition. Is there any way he could have expected improvement given the lack of quality pitching moves he made? My theory is that he intentionally did very little to avoid a backslide this season. From his perspective, it is much easier to orchestrate trades and make major moves if the team is suffering through a losing season. His eye was always on next year and beyond. Of course he can't come out and say he is punting 2016 though.

I think they anticipated a step back with the pitching just by virtue of the natural rookie struggles you'll see from the prospects they created room for. I can't imagine they didn't, most of the national sites did.

However, I don't think they anticipated Cutch and Liriano taking such huge steps back, Cole taking a minor step back, and Cervelli being injured for an extended period of time. The bullpen also sucks, but bullpens are bullpens. Incredibly volatile and unpredictable from year-to-year.

As much as people hate the back end of the rotation, nothing they did this offseason is compensating for the lost production from Cutch, Liriano, Cervelli, and possibly Cole. Just one of those years.
 
I think they anticipated a step back with the pitching just by virtue of the natural rookie struggles you'll see from the prospects they created room for. I can't imagine they didn't, most of the national sites did.

However, I don't think they anticipated Cutch and Liriano taking such huge steps back, Cole taking a minor step back, and Cervelli being injured for an extended period of time. The bullpen also sucks, but bullpens are bullpens. Incredibly volatile and unpredictable from year-to-year.

As much as people hate the back end of the rotation, nothing they did this offseason is compensating for the lost production from Cutch, Liriano, Cervelli, and possibly Cole. Just one of those years.
See Pirates 1959 and 1989. A step back each time before a championship the following year.
 
NH would didnt want to sign Happ, ZG, JC, but instead he choose NEISE, you all buying this bullshit?
 
This was always going to be a down year. They didn't want to go into long term contracts with pitchers when Tailon and the others at AAA should be ready next year. They should seriously look into trading the guys who will come up for free agency after this season or next before the trade deadline then promote guys like Hansen and Bell along with the pitchers. Take your lumps this season and get a idea of what you got. 2018 is the next real shot at a Championship. They will still have most of the key pieces in the lineup and the young studs should be ready to step up by that time.You hope to make the playoff's next year and have a shot at winning in 2018
 
Del and td isthman are in heaven. It's been a tough 4 years for them seeing the buccos win. Finally they get a chance to gloat.

NH would didnt want to sign Happ, ZG, JC, but instead he choose NEISE, you all buying this bullshit?
Happ would have required a long term investment for a guy who was at best average when he came here. They believe a rotation of Cole, Tailon,Liranio(maybe)glasnow and kingman(or whatever journey man they take a chance on will be ready to go next season. Tailon and Glasnow will likely get 10 to 15 major league starts this year.
 
The ultimate act of brown nosing your boss, a boss who has essentially handcuffed what you can do as a GM. Great job security move by a minion who buys into his boss' compete on the cheap philosophy.
Oh and another thing Del3Degrees....you think NH cares about brown nosing his boss when in fact Huntington could have any job he wants he is that respected in the baseball community?

Huntington could find a job tomorrow if he wanted
 
Bucs pitching came through again tonight
Oh and another thing Del3Degrees....you think NH cares about brown nosing his boss when in fact Huntington could have any job he wants he is that respected in the baseball community?

Huntington could find a job tomorrow if he wanted
if Huntington could have any job in the league he wouldn't be working for Nutting. Your suggestion to the contrary is beyond naive. Given Nutting's budgetary restrictions, the Pirates GM position is one of the most unattractive and undesirable in BB.
 
Bucs pitching came through again tonight

if Huntington could have any job in the league he wouldn't be working for Nutting. Your suggestion to the contrary is beyond naive. Given Nutting's budgetary restrictions, the Pirates GM position is one of the most unattractive and undesirable in BB.
actually you're naive...... if anything NH is dumb for signing a contract extension the guy had options.....
 
MLB must make owners spend a certain amount, if not, then posters on this board could pitch for the Pirates, league minimum, and wouldn't know the damn difference
 
Bucs pitching came through again tonight

if Huntington could have any job in the league he wouldn't be working for Nutting. Your suggestion to the contrary is beyond naive. Given Nutting's budgetary restrictions, the Pirates GM position is one of the most unattractive and undesirable in BB.


It's coming through today as well. Sheep
 
Bucs pitching came through again tonight

if Huntington could have any job in the league he wouldn't be working for Nutting. Your suggestion to the contrary is beyond naive. Given Nutting's budgetary restrictions, the Pirates GM position is one of the most unattractive and undesirable in BB.


Please God, don't tell me these fools think NH chooses to work for the Pirates over about 20 other clubs, kool-aid is deep in these parts
 
It's incredible how the logic, discourse, and knowledge just plummets when a select few re-enter the thread. That's really saying something for a message board.
 
Please God, don't tell me these fools think NH chooses to work for the Pirates over about 20 other clubs, kool-aid is deep in these parts
How dumb can this crowd be? They think a GM would prefer to work for an owner who makes him work on a shoe string- laughable!
 
Is Jaso not able to catch anymore? He was a catcher until this year. Now we use Kratz as an everyday player, who isnt much worse than Stewart, but regardless, if Jaso could catch at all, you think it would boost the offense.

Niese is who we thought he would be. Basically Jeff Locke.
 
How dumb can this crowd be? They think a GM would prefer to work for an owner who makes him work on a shoe string- laughable!

You're really overrating the money/payroll aspect of things, as usual.

Most GMs just want the ability to operate their franchise in the optimum manner for their market size. If those resources are provided, they're generally pretty happy. Hell, Andrew Friedman left Tampa Bay for the Los Angeles Dodgers even though the Dodgers told him he was being brought in with the main objective being to slash payroll while staying competitive. They sweetened the pot, though, by promoting him to President and saying they would hire on different researchers to run side projects for Friedman and test out his theories and hunches. Guys don't care about the payroll so much as having the freedom to do what's best for the organization in the long run (and no, signing an old guy to a multi-year megadeal isn't ever what's best for an organization in the long run).

The only 2 owners with bad reputations are Jeffrey Loria (Miami) and Arte Moreno (LA Angels). They meddle and override their GM's decisions, usually to the franchise's detriment.

The only other guy who gets much harsh criticism from anywhere is Wilpon (Mets) and that's mostly because he's embroiled in the Madoff scandal so is spending way below what his market size dictates.

There are other owners who aren't very good, but it tends to be those who are overly loyal to GM's who probably shouldn't remain in their post (Minnesota is a shining example of this right now -- they need a breath of fresh air).
 
Is Jaso not able to catch anymore? He was a catcher until this year. Now we use Kratz as an everyday player, who isnt much worse than Stewart, but regardless, if Jaso could catch at all, you think it would boost the offense.

Niese is who we thought he would be. Basically Jeff Locke.

Jaso can't catch anymore. Too many concussions.
 
He may be rich but as an owner, he's s bum! And I will stick to that characterization unless he changes his management/financial philosophy in regard to the Pirates.

Question. What changes, what moves would you want him to do. I am talking RIGHT NOW through the Winter Meetings in December. What moves with some specificity please, do you want to see the Pirates make, will make you think that he committed?
 
Every time they faced a top pitcher last year they rolled up in a fetal position and died and their record against teams in their own division and teams with a record abive.500 wasn't good. On the basis of this data, I knew they weren't going anywhere in the playoffs, particularly as a wild card participant. The Pirates struggled to score runs last year- that's fact. They were never a serious playoff contender in my mind with that offense.

The Mets participated in the World Series last year, right? They had a great pitching staff. The Pirates were 6-0 against them. The Giants had Baumgarner, the Pirates were 6-1 against them. The Dodgers? The Pirates were 5-1 against them,. See you say this stuff and it is not all true, it is your distorted view. The series against the Cubs and Cards didn't do the Pirates in as much as the Reds and Brewers. That is just an anomaly.
 
Let me ask a very honest couple questions......

When you heard, Neise, Locke, and Juan Carlos Rodriguez were going to be in the rotation as 3, 4, 5 this year, thought we would compete, and be just fine? So I'm guessing, we knew there would be issues, all of us, if being logical. So why did Nutting not sign Happ, and or another top 3 starter ? Hell, two would have been better.
 
Let me ask a very honest couple questions......

When you heard, Neise, Locke, and Juan Carlos Rodriguez were going to be in the rotation as 3, 4, 5 this year, thought we would compete l, and be just fine? So I'm guessing, we knew there would be issues, all of us, I knew it for sure. So why did Nutting not sign Happ, and or another top 3 starter ? Hell, two would have been better.

Nutting didn't sign Happ because Happ isn't a top 3 starter. He's a 5th starter/swing man whose career mirrors that of Jeff Locke's, except he didn't make an All-Star game. Basically, he's a guy you want to get rid of and replace as quickly as possible, not a guy you want to promise a roster spot and 8 figures to for 3 seasons.

Niese was a fine addition this offseason. People don't want to hear that, but his career numbers are better than or equivalent to all the other 4th starter types signed this offseason (Samardzija, Leake, Gallardo, Kennedy, Chen, Kazmir, Fister, etc.). Not surprisingly, some of those guys have been good. Also not surprisingly, some of those guys have been bad. Welcome to the wonderful world of pitchers. You get a guy and you pray that he doesn't get hurt, then if that works you pray that he doesn't completely lose it. One could argue that Niese took a step back last year so it should have been obvious he would keep declining, but then how do you justify Samardzija? They've been pretty much the same over their careers, they both took steps back last year, so you're pretty much just evaluating everything through hindsight.

Let's not forget, Mat Latos was a hot name this past offseason when it came to signing a reclamation project -- pitchers are far from predictable in reality, although that tends to not stop the "wow how could you not see that coming?" proclamations partway through each season.

The overall plan was to have Cole and Liriano anchor the rotation, have Taillon and Glasnow come up and take their rookie lumps behind them, have Niese as a solid 5th starter, and then ostensibly have a decent front end of the bullpen with Locke and Nicasio (most starters tend to make decent relievers -- the majority of relievers are failed starters, after all).

As I've said, people can bitch about the back end of the rotation all they want -- but the Pirates aren't overcoming Liriano tanking and Cole missing time when it comes to the pitching. Bullpen sucks, too, but it's not like it's the new guys sucking. Caminero's been bad, Hughes has struggled, Watson has struggled, Melancon's been more lucky than good -- those are all of your high leverage relievers from last year's beloved Shark Tank (minus Bastardo, who has been horrendous for the Mets). If they'd non-tendered Watson, Melancon, Hughes, and Caminero people would have been PISSED. There were thoughts of Caminero being a future closer last year.

The biggest criticism you can levy against the Pirates this offseason, IMO, is overestimating Tyler Glasnow's readiness. Even if Cole was healthy and Liriano was really good, they'd still only have Taillon up by this point. But, even then, if Steven Brault and Trevor Williams don't get injured, who's to say they don't force their way up eventually instead?
 
Lmao, Happ should have been signed, 3rd in rotation to start the season. Be honest, his 12 million paycheck ran the cheap bastard off, Nutting that is

3.Larry , 4. Moe , 5.Curly, that was a cluster f**k from the day it was announced
 
The Mets participated in the World Series last year, right? They had a great pitching staff. The Pirates were 6-0 against them. The Giants had Baumgarner, the Pirates were 6-1 against them. The Dodgers? The Pirates were 5-1 against them,. See you say this stuff and it is not all true, it is your distorted view. The series against the Cubs and Cards didn't do the Pirates in as much as the Reds and Brewers. That is just an anomaly.
What was the Pirates record against their division and all teams that finished over .500?
 
Nutting didn't sign Happ because Happ isn't a top 3 starter. He's a 5th starter/swing man whose career mirrors that of Jeff Locke's, except he didn't make an All-Star game. Basically, he's a guy you want to get rid of and replace as quickly as possible, not a guy you want to promise a roster spot and 8 figures to for 3 seasons.

Niese was a fine addition this offseason. People don't want to hear that, but his career numbers are better than or equivalent to all the other 4th starter types signed this offseason (Samardzija, Leake, Gallardo, Kennedy, Chen, Kazmir, Fister, etc.). Not surprisingly, some of those guys have been good. Also not surprisingly, some of those guys have been bad. Welcome to the wonderful world of pitchers. You get a guy and you pray that he doesn't get hurt, then if that works you pray that he doesn't completely lose it. One could argue that Niese took a step back last year so it should have been obvious he would keep declining, but then how do you justify Samardzija? They've been pretty much the same over their careers, they both took steps back last year, so you're pretty much just evaluating everything through hindsight.

Let's not forget, Mat Latos was a hot name this past offseason when it came to signing a reclamation project -- pitchers are far from predictable in reality, although that tends to not stop the "wow how could you not see that coming?" proclamations partway through each season.

The overall plan was to have Cole and Liriano anchor the rotation, have Taillon and Glasnow come up and take their rookie lumps behind them, have Niese as a solid 5th starter, and then ostensibly have a decent front end of the bullpen with Locke and Nicasio (most starters tend to make decent relievers -- the majority of relievers are failed starters, after all).

As I've said, people can bitch about the back end of the rotation all they want -- but the Pirates aren't overcoming Liriano tanking and Cole missing time when it comes to the pitching. Bullpen sucks, too, but it's not like it's the new guys sucking. Caminero's been bad, Hughes has struggled, Watson has struggled, Melancon's been more lucky than good -- those are all of your high leverage relievers from last year's beloved Shark Tank (minus Bastardo, who has been horrendous for the Mets). If they'd non-tendered Watson, Melancon, Hughes, and Caminero people would have been PISSED. There were thoughts of Caminero being a future closer last year.

The biggest criticism you can levy against the Pirates this offseason, IMO, is overestimating Tyler Glasnow's readiness. Even if Cole was healthy and Liriano was really good, they'd still only have Taillon up by this point. But, even then, if Steven Brault and Trevor Williams don't get injured, who's to say they don't force their way up eventually instead?
Correction: Nutting didn't sign Happ because he's cheap.
 
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