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OT.....Pirates and Nutting

Momentum in baseball goes as far as your starting pitcher for the next game. The Pirates did not count on Cole being both average and on the DL or that Liriano would struggle after having rebounded. But the next two starters were iffy. Neise has been decent....Locke has been a nightmare.
The middle relief is awful.
Cutch is mired in what I think is an off year (that's baseball...it happened to # 21 it can happen to anyone).
They have their 8th string catcher and they and everyone else has run into the CUBS who are on an historical path.
This is where crossed fingers (failure to get appropriate starting pitching and hoping guys spin straw into gold) and "that's baseball" (Cutch slump, catcher injuries, Cole injury, CUBS) collide.
The measure of Nutting will be the rest of this season and the off season. Pittsburgh could do some trading at or near the deadline that would be meaningful.
Blaming it all on Nutting ignores the last 3 years. That is how I see it.
Exactly. You can blame a lot on the Federal Street Suits, but some years the dogs bites, the bee stings, the bear (cub) gets you and there ain't nuthin' to say. Too early to write off the Pirates, officially. But this could be One of Those Years. Now, do you go off The Plan to turn the season around? Or take the long run view and keep plugging along?
 
So let's surmise...The Bucs were the worst run franchise of every pro league. The current owners have turned them into a playoff team the last three years. The current owners have locked up virtually every position player that made them a playoff contender for multiple years (which is extending their window not closing it). The current owners oversaw a complete rebuilding of what now looks like a stocked farm system. And you don't "trust" them.

Who give a F' what they spend, or what they profit. They have brought the best baseball played in Pittsburgh in a generation.

Again, the biggest reason for the struggles this year is the injuries over the last couple of years to their top pitching prospects. The plan was to have following this year-
Cole
Liriano
Taillon (should be in his 3rd season)
Kingham (should be in his 2nd season)

If the they don't get hit with a rash of injuries they can afford to keep one of better starters they lost in FA and everyone else was pushed back.
They have also constructed a lineup that's been devoid of kep pieces during the entirety of their tenure. Entering into long term contracts with 3 or 4 key players doesn't make up for the failure to plug kep gaps that have existed for YEARS, like at first base . They continue to be bargain basement shoppers covered more about total payroll than fielding a championship team. Nutting's a bum!
 
I'm a big supporter of what the pirates players and front office have done these past few years. Huntington took the worst farm system in baseball and made it solid. He took a terrible on the field product and made it exceptional. However even resigning JA Happ would not change what this year would be. So I understand if he's going to get the praise for that he should get the blame for whats happening on the field now.

I don't want to give up on them yet just because everything that could have gone wrong so far has. If they can stay around .500 up until the allstar break things could get interesting. Add in a healthy Cole and hopefully Glasnow it would make the depth of the rotation that much better.

What I would like to see is them to sell though which could be unpopular but it makes sense for next year. There is no reason to trade Cutch he'd be valued so low with the season he is having. Bank the money that they use at the trade deadline until next year along with the trade of Melancon. That would give them an estimate of roughly 10 million to play around in with free agency. They don't have to get crazy but someone like a Cashner or Nova to add to the rotation.

Cole
Taillon
Glasnow
Random Free Agent
Liriano/Neise

Not a terrible rotation and see where that takes you.
 
Not in heaven at all. If you and your coterie of yinzers knew anything about BB, you would have seen this coming. Nutsack gave you three years to revel in the boobie prize. You don't fill holes in the team and the team gets worse-simple as that. He had a chance to build the Pirates into a championship team and he blew because he wanted to protect his wallet. By his estimation, you should be happy for another 25 years...after all you still will receive the bobbleheads and kielbasa, which is more important to folks like you in any event. I want a championship, not kielbasa and bobbleheads. Nutting depends on gullible folks like you. Nutting's a bum!
You need help. Try: healthcare.gov No pre-existing exclusions. How many games do you attend?? Don't you mind your cotton candy stand in Rehobeth?? High season for you entrepreneurs.
 
You need help. Try: healthcare.gov No pre-existing exclusions. How many games do you attend?? Don't you mind your cotton candy stand in Rehobeth?? High season for you entrepreneurs.

Is it Buctober yet. NTOP? Told you...you were too stubborn to listen. Love Rehoboth. Great restaurants...only 2 hours from home. Can't beat it. Nutsack runs both a Hawaiian shaved ice and ice cream stand at Rehoboth-little side income to defer the expense of procuring bums like Nicasio. He, however, waters down the flavoring on the sno-cones...no surprise here...the guy's always pinching pennies.
 
I don't think Del is out of line. I think the business model for the Pirates is to compete, be good, and if the chips fall, great. If not? Hey, great year. But as long as you are in races come August and September, people will fill PNC Park. But to go "all in" is not an acceptable risk because the reward isn't that great to the Nuttings. Profit>Championship. And we don't see this with the other two franchises in town.
Amen to that recruits, you just nailed it!
 
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Let's try a counting game.

McCutchen is 1
Marte is 2
Polanco is 3
Harrison is 4
Cervelli is 5
Kang is 6
Liriano is 7

That's 6 of 8 positions, not including Mercer who is under control as well. But damn it, it's that first base thing that makes me a miserable person. Typical myopic yinzer view of things. Ignore reality to create something to complain about.

They have also constructed a lineup that's been devoid of kep pieces during the entirety of their tenure. Entering into long term contracts with 3 or 4 key players doesn't make up for the failure to plug kep gaps that have existed for YEARS, like at first base . They continue to be bargain basement shoppers covered more about total payroll than fielding a championship team. Nutting's a bum!
 
Let's try a counting game.

McCutchen is 1
Marte is 2
Polanco is 3
Harrison is 4
Cervelli is 5
Kang is 6
Liriano is 7

That's 6 of 8 positions, not including Mercer who is under control as well. But damn it, it's that first base thing that makes me a miserable person. Typical myopic yinzer view of things. Ignore reality to create something to complain about.
For much of the last 3 years, there was no steady, reliable first baseman, no consistent SS, no consistent RF and no consistent third baseman. For at least even the first year, the LF was an inconsistent performer. That's more than half of the everyday lineup composed of question marks. Talk all you want about licking people up but the reality is that for just about the entirety of the last three years the Pirates' everyday starting lineup was flawed leading to extremely tepid offensive production which prevented them winning a championship even though they had great pitching. As for the guys locked up that you list, the jury's still out on Harrison, a career utilityman, and Kang-they may be flash in the pans. Contrary to what you suggest, what Nutsack built is a house of cards particularly given the state of the pitching staff-it's a complete mess. The only other relevant thing to add is that Nutsack locks up players before their track record actually suggests they deserve a long term deal so that he can lock players up on the cheap-see Jose Tabata. Locking players up in of itself doesn't mean squat.
 
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The last 3 season they had the 2nd best record in baseball (hint- this is where you should realize your argument is moronic).

How many MLB teams have flaws in their line-up and or staff (Here's a clue-it's usually all but maybe one or two)? Again, myopic yinzer view of world.


For much of the last 3 years, there was no steady, reliable first baseman, no consistent SS, no consistent RF and no consistent third baseman. For at least even the first year, the LF was an inconsistent performer. That's more than half of the everyday lineup composed of question marks. Talk all you want about licking people up but the reality is that for just about the entirety of the last three years the Pirates' everyday starting lineup was flawed leading to extremely tepid offensive production which prevented them winning a championship even though they had great pitching. As for the guys locked up that you list, the jury's still out on Harrison, a career utilityman, and Kang-they may be flash in the pans. Contrary to what you suggest, what Nutsack built is a house of cards particularly given the state of the pitching staff-it's a complete mess. The only other relevant thing to add is that Nutsack locks up players before their track record actually suggests they deserve a long term deal so that he can lock players up on the cheap-see Jose Tabata. Locking players up in of itself doesn't mean squat.
 
They have also constructed a lineup that's been devoid of kep pieces during the entirety of their tenure. Entering into long term contracts with 3 or 4 key players doesn't make up for the failure to plug kep gaps that have existed for YEARS, like at first base . They continue to be bargain basement shoppers covered more about total payroll than fielding a championship team. Nutting's a bum!
Nutting's a billionare not a bum......you, not so much even with your alleged 5 masters degrees
 
Nutting's a billionare not a bum......you, not so much even with your alleged 5 masters degrees
He may be rich but as an owner, he's s bum! And I will stick to that characterization unless he changes his management/financial philosophy in regard to the Pirates.
 
The last 3 season they had the 2nd best record in baseball (hint- this is where you should realize your argument is moronic).

How many MLB teams have flaws in their line-up and or staff (Here's a clue-it's usually all but maybe one or two)? Again, myopic yinzer view of world.
They were a pretender except in the eyes of the naive BB fan, the sucker that allows Nutting to do what he does. Congratulations on being a select member of this club.
 
Dispute one fact stated- the problem is you can't so your only replies are childish name calling.

They were a pretender except in the eyes of the naive BB fan, the sucker that allows Nutting to do what he does. Congratulations on being a select member of this club.
 
Dispute one fact stated- the problem is you can't so your only replies are childish name calling.
So, how would you FORCE Nutting to follow YOUR rules for him....as we know you have all the answers.
 
They were a pretender except in the eyes of the naive BB fan, the sucker that allows Nutting to do what he does. Congratulations on being a select member of this club.
they had the second best record in baseball. See Del, it's garbage like this that makes taking you serious very hard.. One of a very few teams that made the playoffs 3 years running.. If they snuck their way into contention then maybe your points have validity. I mean, you reference '97 buccos as a fluke, I'll give you that. But every bit of evidence and fact go against your arguments.
 
they had the second best record in baseball. See Del, it's garbage like this that makes taking you serious very hard.. One of a very few teams that made the playoffs 3 years running.. If they snuck their way into contention then maybe your points have validity. I mean, you reference '97 buccos as a fluke, I'll give you that. But every bit of evidence and fact go against your arguments.
Every time they faced a top pitcher last year they rolled up in a fetal position and died and their record against teams in their own division and teams with a record abive.500 wasn't good. On the basis of this data, I knew they weren't going anywhere in the playoffs, particularly as a wild card participant. The Pirates struggled to score runs last year- that's fact. They were never a serious playoff contender in my mind with that offense.
 
they had the second best record in baseball. See Del, it's garbage like this that makes taking you serious very hard.. One of a very few teams that made the playoffs 3 years running.. If they snuck their way into contention then maybe your points have validity. I mean, you reference '97 buccos as a fluke, I'll give you that. But every bit of evidence and fact go against your arguments.
funny thing...the Cubs are loaded...absolutely loaded..more than likely they will come up short from winning it all....wonder if there will be a Cubbie DelPanther type railing against their management?
 
funny thing...the Cubs are loaded...absolutely loaded..more than likely they will come up short from winning it all....wonder if there will be a Cubbie DelPanther type railing against their management?
There's a difference between going all in and falling short lehich would be the Cubs' situation and Nutting's feigned efforts to win a championship.
 
Every time they faced a top pitcher last year they rolled up in a fetal position and died and their record against teams in their own division and teams with a record abive.500 wasn't good. On the basis of this data, I knew they weren't going anywhere in the playoffs, particularly as a wild card participant. The Pirates struggled to score runs last year- that's fact. They were never a serious playoff contender in my mind with that offense.

They were 4th in the NL in runs scored behind the Nationals (by 6 runs) and the Rockies and D'Backs -- teams who play in 2 of the most run-inflating parks in baseball.

Whether you use old person stats or relevant stats, the offense was good last year.

Your "facts" always come down to playing the results, using hindsight, and namecalling. For as much as they struggled with literally every type of team imaginable in your post, they still managed to win 98 games. So, either you're overstating their struggles or you paid 0 attention to last year's season. My guess is that it's the latter.

And now, I'm back out again. You're just far too ridiculous to deal with consistently.
 
There's a difference between going all in and falling short lehich would be the Cubs' situation and Nutting's feigned efforts to win a championship.

No there isn't. The only difference is in the minds of the mentally weak who think going all-in means something in baseball. It's nothing but a cognitive baby blanket. Something people use to comfort themselves in the short term and cope with their team's losses because they're incapable of seeing the bigger picture.
 
They were 4th in the NL in runs scored behind the Nationals (by 6 runs) and the Rockies and D'Backs -- teams who play in 2 of the most run-inflating parks in baseball.

Whether you use old person stats or relevant stats, the offense was good last year.

Your "facts" always come down to playing the results, using hindsight, and namecalling.

And now, I'm back out again. You're just far too ridiculous to deal with consistently.
I'm not name calling. That's a lie!And I stick to my position on the Pirates' offense last year. You have been completely discredited in these various threads on the Pirates. You just can't comprehend that.
 
No there isn't. The only difference is in the minds of the mentally weak who think going all-in means something in baseball. It's nothing but a cognitive baby blanket. Something people use to comfort themselves in the short term and cope with their team's losses because they're incapable of seeing the bigger picture.
You're doing the name calling.... As usual and then pointing figures at others.
 
I'm not name calling. That's a lie!And I stick to my position on the Pirates' offense last year. You have been completely discredited in these various threads on the Pirates. You just can't comprehend that.

Nobody has discredited anything. Just because the tinfoil hat wearing loons are too stupid to communicate with to bother debating doesn't mean anything was discredited.
 
I'm not name calling. That's a lie!And I stick to my position on the Pirates' offense last year. You have been completely discredited in these various threads on the Pirates. You just can't comprehend that.

You're always name calling Del. Then playing the victim. Typically while playing the results at the same time and using hindsight to justify your illogical positions.
 
You're always name calling Del. Then playing the victim. Typically while playing the results at the same time and using hindsight to justify your illogical positions.
Your post is a lie. If you check every one of my posts in this thread you will see that I only answered a post sharply if the poster responding to my post either got personal or attacked me. You on the other hand attack people who reject your theories as the nonsense that they are. You have followed this pattern in your last 3 posts.
 
Your post is a lie. If you check every one of my posts in this thread you will see that I only answered a post sharply if the poster responding to my post either got personal or attacked me. You on the other hand attack people who reject your theories as the nonsense that they are. You have followed this pattern in your last 3 posts.

Wanna check your very first post in the thread? When literally nobody said a thing to you or about you and you posted things that were completely and totally unrelated to the post you quoted?

It's not just a pretty standard foray into message boarding for you, it's also pretty much your response every time somebody asks you to provide substantive analysis or state what your plan would be with some specific names and numbers. Deflect, get defensive, call some names, toss out some non-sequiturs in order to change the subject. Rinse. Repeat. It's the Delpanther method to debating.

The game has passed you by, by an order of decades at this point. That you're able to find people who are equally clueless does not somehow discredit what I'm saying. It's just reinforcing why old guys are getting forced out of the game in droves.
 
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Have a kielbasa and a bobblehead! They'll make all the pain go way....Nutsack says so.
Wanna check your very first post in the thread? When literally nobody said a thing to you or about you?

It's not just a pretty standard foray into message boarding for you, it's also pretty much your response every time somebody asks you to provide substantive analysis or state what your plan would be with some specific names and numbers. Deflect, get defensive, call some names, toss out some non-sequiturs in order to change the subject. Rinse. Repeat. It's the Delpanther method to debating.
you mean my post responding to yours calling me and others "stupid"?
 
you mean my post responding to yours calling me and others "stupid"?

I never called you stupid, Del. Only those who use facile arguments and refuse to digest facts and adjust with the times. It wasn't directed at anybody in particular on this board or in the real world (okay, maybe Mark Madden), it was more of a generalization.

If you're in that group, that isn't my problem. There are plenty of free sites out there that'll allow you to catch up with the game. Fangraphs, Beyond the Box Score, and The Hardball Times are good places to start.
 
Thanks for acknowledging my having all of the answers but I have no clue what you're talking about in this post. I'm assuming you were meaning to direct this to del.

So, how would you FORCE Nutting to follow YOUR rules for him....as we know you have all the answers.
 
Del- if someone says something like "that's a typical myopic yinzer thinking" that's not calling someone a name. It's simply a statement about a way of thinking. Unfortunately it seems that you applied the comment to yourself by taking offense.

If someone says, "del, you are simple minded yinzer" now that's calling you a name. Or your constant use of your pet names that you have other grown men. The constant use of pet names is what I was referring in my earlier post.

you mean my post responding to yours calling me and others "stupid"?
 
I never called you stupid, Del. Only those who use facile arguments and refuse to digest facts and adjust with the times. It wasn't directed at anybody in particular on this board or in the real world (okay, maybe Mark Madden), it was more of a generalization.

If you're in that group, that isn't my problem. There are plenty of free sites out there that'll allow you to catch up with the game. Fangraphs, Beyond the Box Score, and The Hardball Times are good places to start.
Del- if someone says something like "that's a typical myopic yinzer thinking" that's not calling someone a name. It's simply a statement about a way of thinking. Unfortunately it seems that you applied the comment to yourself by taking offense.

If someone says, "del, you are simple minded yinzer" now that's calling you a name. Or you constant use of your pet names that you have other grown men. The constant use of pet names is what I was referring in my earlier post.
That's a pretty weak defense. Insults are insults whether direct or by implication. My so called use of pet names isn't an insult to anyone other than the person referred to and casts no aspersions on you or anyone else.
 
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I think this team is dead in the water this year. Just to many things have gone wrong and there is no margin of error for a small market team. I can't get over the fact that McCutcheon looks like a minor league player. They may want to move him for prospects but I wouldn't give a bucket of baseballs for him right now. They have so many holes and health issues all in the same year.
It is fair to acknowledge that they have made progress under this ownership. However, it is worth mentioning that they had no where to go but up after the 20 year mess. Things are better here and we are more competitive. This team did win 98 games last year which is amazing but, they never could win the division despite 3 good years. I don't think it is a coincidence that they never advanced in the playoffs over those 3 years, despite playing St.Louis close in a 5 game series.
If you ask your owner for competitiveness, well Nutsack has delivered. If you are like me and hope for a winner, he has not measured up. Those are facts. Some of you may be great believers in ownership based on these three years, but in this no salary cap market for a small market team it may be impossible for us to even have a playoff run like that. It is easy for some of you to get hooked on this ownership considering we were a doormat for 20 years. As I have said before, the best thing this ownership has done is bring some quality players back into the minor league system. It will take more than that to be a winner.
I realize we are not the Cubs but, they had great position players coming up in their system and to give them a real chance thay went out and bought pitching. Arrieta, lester, and Lackey all came from outside the organization. I realize we can not afford to buy 3 pitchers of this caliber on the FA market, but maybe we could take a shot at one.
I have clearly stated my opinion on Nutsack here before, but maybe it isn't his fault that we can't win. I have been reading everyone's position on this and I just feel like it is nearly an impossible task for the Pirates to get to the world series. We have to be damn near perfect, and I am not sure any owner could get us a World Series. Do you think we could get Warren Buffet to buy our Buccos?
 
Thanks for acknowledging my having all of the answers but I have no clue what you're talking about in this post. I'm assuming you were meaning to direct this to del.
Thought I did direct it to del??
 
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