OT: Pirates need to be better disciplined.

[PittPoker]

Quick question:

If this team didn't have a lineup full of holes and bad defense, how many games would they have won? 110? 120? 162?

If Maddon managed this team they win 105-108 games. Why? Because the team wouldn't have started 18-22 and wouldn't have gotten swept twice by the awful Brewers in the 2nd half. Like Narduzzi has already done with Pitt early on, Maddon has that fire and can push and motivate his team. Hurdle is more zzzzzzz.

Also, Del is right about the offense. Most of our guys are full of streaks, nothing consistent and when the pressure is on they fold like a tent. Walker, Marte, McCutchen - big ZERO in important playoff games. Plus all we do is dumpster dive midseason and hope we find a diamond in the rough like Happ turned out to be. That was a miracle. Nutting should have re-signed Volquez for peanuts in today's market and we wouldn't have to be tortured watching Morton AND Locke take the mound 2 of 5 days. If Volquez was re-signed we win the division. It's the little things that a caring owner should be doing but cheapskate Nutting is not. Polanco was struggling most of the whole season right? What about bringing Cespedes here for the stretch run like the Mets did? If Cespedes comes we win the division. We need a bat like that 120% but no way Nutting spends the money or Huntington unloads god forbid a prospect or 2.

Losing Kang destroyed the last hope of this team really making that huge stretch run to win the division. Kang was a huge surprise and we need more Kangs on this team to ever go deep in the playoffs, not Mercer, Rodriguez, Walker and now the regressed Kedro. Add the do nothing at bats of our 3 and 4 hitters in crunch time and it shouldn't surprise anyone we were shut out the other night. I mean, look at what bad Reds pitching did to us. Those awful starters were holding the team to 1 run, 2 runs - pathetic.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

This thread has gone totally off the rails to a fantastically entertaining level of delusion and unprovable proclamations about intangible things. It's great.

 

[ThePanthers]

This thread has gone totally off the rails to a fantastically entertaining level of delusion and unprovable proclamations about intangible things. It's great.

Agree. It's hilarious.

 

[dooz3]

Its goodto see that not only are you all rotten fans when it comes to Pitt football, you are equally rotten hen it comes to Buccos. Not only that you are equally as ignorant of both games.

 

[Delpanther]

This thread has gone totally off the rails to a fantastically entertaining level of delusion and unprovable proclamations about intangible things. It's great.

That's what happens every time you introduce your stupid fantasy concepts into the discussion. Continue to play your stupid fantasy games where the league champion isn't the team which wins the World Series but the team with the best ROI or whatever other irrelevant statistics you use to determine the best team in BB. Moronic.

 

[Delpanther]

You people don't deserve a good team.

Pittsbutgh deserves an owner who wants to win and not the cheap Bum that owns the team.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

That's what happens every time you introduce your stupid fantasy concepts into the discussion. Continue to play your stupid fantasy games where the league champion isn't the team which wins the World Series but the team with the best ROI or whatever other irrelevant statistics you use to determine the best team in BB. Moronic.

The league champion is, by definition, who wins the World Series. The best team is, most definitely, not the same thing.

You keep clinging to beliefs and constructs that were the foundation of a bygone era. I'll keep chiming in with what is ACTUALLY relevant in today's game. Whether or not you choose to catch up is your decision, but I'm going to keep telling you you're wrong and your complaints are irrelevant if you don't.

 

[ameoba defense]

Pittsbutgh deserves an owner who wants to win and not the cheap Bum that owns the team.

In other words, you want a guy who will operate in the red, spending away his fortune. That doesn't exist in the real world.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

In other words, you want a guy who will operate in the red, spending away his fortune. That doesn't exist in the real world.

The biggest misconceptions in baseball are:

1) Payroll is correlated to wins/talent

and

2) Having a huge payroll means you've accumulated better players than other teams.

Baseball's now built on young talent and developing farm systems. PED's have killed free agency -- guys decline too quickly and teams are too smart to allow their young players to reach free agency during their prime years.

Payroll is important for one reason -- an ability to eat and withstand terrible contracts. For instance, last year's Giants team that won the World Series had $60+MM paid to Tim Lincecum (bad), Barry Zito (bad), Marco Scutaro (injured and bad), and Matt Cain (injured and now bad). Their payroll clearly didn't win them anything, they had a TON of dead weight inflating the figure.

If the Pirates (or any small market team) sign somebody to a really bad multi-year contract, it's possibly the single most damaging thing they can do to themselves (the other possibility is gutting their system). If a large market team does it, it won't hold them back. They can just keep signing and signing and signing and signing, knowing that some deals will work out and some won't.

Any contract the Pirates sign needs to allow them to do 1 of 2 things -- cut a guy and still have enough available cash to be able to trade for/sign his replacement OR be able to move the player and his entire contract when needed.

 

[Pittx9]

If Kang wasn't injured we might have been able to win the division - the Cards were stumbling mightily down the stretch and I think Kang in our lineup gets us a few more late season victories. Huge huge loss.

If Kang wasn't injured we might have been able to win the division - the Cards were stumbling mightily down the stretch and I think Kang in our lineup gets us a few more late season victories. Huge huge loss.

I agree entirely. Terrible luck for Pittsburgh sports this year. James Conner an All-American candidate, Kang a rookie of the year candidate, and Big Ben an NFL MVP candidate.
The game where Kang basically brought us back from the dead with 2 home runs showed how much of an impact he can be. Gonna be a really good MLB player.

 

[passedout]

Pittsbutgh deserves an owner who wants to win and not the cheap Bum that owns the team.

The BUCS have several "key" players locked into long term contracts, most importantly they are contracts with gradual salary increases. Arbitration will press the Pirates’ payroll since there are 11 arbitration eligible players this off season. 7 of those could be free agents at this time next year if not signed beyond the 2016 season. MLB projects this group of 11 players will earn just short of $50M in 2016. Walker ($10.7M), Melancon ($10M), and Alvarez ($8.1M) are the big $!! So the time is NOW (actually last year the move should've been made) to spend money on a power hitting 1B because team payroll is going to go up each year with each "Key" player. Rising costs and retaining veterans will push the Bucs into a rebuild. It IS inevitable. I love what Huntington does, but this team needs a CLUTCH "Smart" hitter (or two) with all the free swingers on this roster.
Drop Pedro, get Walker and Melancon to sign a friendly deals or replace them too (there ARE options at reliever). 1B and Starting Pitching are priority. Pittsburgh first basemen totaled 30 errors, Colorado was next-highest in the NL with 10. The Bucs allowed an MLB-most 144 steals -- pitchers were reluctant to hold on runners with pickoff throws to Alvarez, afraid he would miss them.

 

[ThePanthers]

The biggest misconceptions in baseball are:

Payroll is important for one reason -- an ability to eat and withstand terrible contracts. For instance, last year's Giants team that won the World Series had $60+MM paid to Tim Lincecum (bad), Barry Zito (bad), Marco Scutaro (injured and bad), and Matt Cain (injured and now bad). Their payroll clearly didn't win them anything, they had a TON of dead weight inflating the figure.
.

This is a big thing I think people miss too. A lot of those big salary teams are paying guys that are on the bench, on another team, etc.

Wasn't the Dodgers paying guys on other teams that was the equivalent to almost the smallest teams payroll this year or something like that?

That is horrible management.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

This is a big thing I think people miss too. A lot of those big salary teams are paying guys that are on the bench, on another team, etc.

Wasn't the Dodgers paying guys on other teams that was the equivalent to almost the smallest teams payroll this year or something like that?

That is horrible management.

Yes, they are paying approximately $90MM to players who are no longer on their roster. That's about $10MM less than the Pirates spent on their team this whole season (including the payroll added at the deadline and during the year).

The main reason they brought in Friedman from the Rays was to slash payroll and win more efficiently (i.e. don't have any dead weight contracts).

I think that's one thing you can say for the Pirates -- you look up and down their roster and they don't have a bad contract on the books.

 

[Pittx9]

How much longer is Bobby Bonilla getting paid by the Mets? I think through the 2020's I heard.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

How much longer is Bobby Bonilla getting paid by the Mets? I think through the 2020's I heard.

2035, I believe.

 

[Pittx9]

2035, I believe.

Wow. Just wow.

 

[Delpanther]

In other words, you want a guy who will operate in the red, spending away his fortune. That doesn't exist in the real world.

Happens everyday in the sporting world with deep pocket owners

 

[Delpanther]

The league champion is, by definition, who wins the World Series. The best team is, most definitely, not the same thing.

You keep clinging to beliefs and constructs that were the foundation of a bygone era. I'll keep chiming in with what is ACTUALLY relevant in today's game. Whether or not you choose to catch up is your decision, but I'm going to keep telling you you're wrong and your complaints are irrelevant if you don't.

They're only vestiges of a bygone era to idiots. Con!gratulations.

 

[ameoba defense]

Happens everyday in the sporting world with deep pocket owners

Not really. Jerry Jones makes big money. So Does Mark Cuban. The teams that spend big money are those in big money markets.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Not really. Jerry Jones makes big money. So Does Mark Cuban. The teams that spend big money are those in big money markets.

NBA teams claimed to be losing money during the last lockout but that's been met with heavy skepticism and the difference is more than offset by their franchise valuations. They're absolutely skyrocketing as the sport takes off.

In baseball, payroll is tied almost in lockstep with media rights. Those are the driving forces. Some teams get 9 figures annually from their TV deals.

 

[ameoba defense]

The biggest misconceptions in baseball are:

1) Payroll is correlated to wins/talent

and

2) Having a huge payroll means you've accumulated better players than other teams.

Baseball's now built on young talent and developing farm systems. PED's have killed free agency -- guys decline too quickly and teams are too smart to allow their young players to reach free agency during their prime years.

Payroll is important for one reason -- an ability to eat and withstand terrible contracts. For instance, last year's Giants team that won the World Series had $60+MM paid to Tim Lincecum (bad), Barry Zito (bad), Marco Scutaro (injured and bad), and Matt Cain (injured and now bad). Their payroll clearly didn't win them anything, they had a TON of dead weight inflating the figure.

If the Pirates (or any small market team) sign somebody to a really bad multi-year contract, it's possibly the single most damaging thing they can do to themselves (the other possibility is gutting their system). If a large market team does it, it won't hold them back. They can just keep signing and signing and signing and signing, knowing that some deals will work out and some won't.

Any contract the Pirates sign needs to allow them to do 1 of 2 things -- cut a guy and still have enough available cash to be able to trade for/sign his replacement OR be able to move the player and his entire contract when needed.

NBA teams claimed to be losing money during the last lockout but that's been met with heavy skepticism and the difference is more than offset by their franchise valuations. They're absolutely skyrocketing as the sport takes off.

In baseball, payroll is tied almost in lockstep with media rights. Those are the driving forces. Some teams get 9 figures annually from their TV deals.

That's correct. The big money teams are either in the biggest metros, or they dominate a geographic area of the country, like St. Louis does. The Pirates bump up against Cleveland, DC, Baltimore, Philly, and Cincy, which limits the geographic area of interest. It's not like the Steelers, who have been the most successful team in the NFL since the merger, which has allowed their fan base to encroach on the territory of the surrounding teams.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

How much longer is Bobby Bonilla getting paid by the Mets? I think through the 2020's I heard.

 

[Pittx9]

View embedded media

The Pirates awful Matt Morris trade where they paid him 10 mil has been topped!

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

The Pirates awful Matt Morris trade where they paid him 10 mil has been topped!

Not really. People just don't understand the value of deferred money. The Mets actually asked Bonilla to defer some of the contract, because the value of money over time is lessened.

 

[pittdan77]

What questionable moves did they make?

They replaced Martin with Cervelli, which worked out very well.
They brought in JA Happ, which I don't think anyone could have done better than he did.
Rameriez was doing well until he got hurt.
The put up the money and signed Kang who was up for rookie of the year.
Morse and Snyder were serviceable bench players.

The only thing I could think of is Rodriguez.

I don't remember any must have 1st basemen on the market this year, and they made the above moves that worked out well w/o totally destroying their minor league system or strapping them with a long term contract that wasn't worth it like the old Pirate regime.

My god, this team is playing good winning baseball. Do they need to fix things? Absolutely, but every team does.

I honestly think some of you people just have your heads up your ass and think sports are video games where you can put in a code and get a powered up player for free.

This is an organization that has side-stepped draft picks because of money. The big trade deadline move this year was for a guy they were afraid to start in a playoff game. And yes, Rodriguez.

Hey, you guys are right. Nutting and Huntingdon are suddenly the genius, lords of the front office. The Pirates almost won a hundred games and in most yinzer's minds, "almost" won it all. They only spent $40 million less than the team that won the division and $39 million less than the team that beat them in the one game playoff but yeah, 98 wins...woo hoo!

Nutting is a bottom line guy and will never spend to win. Remember that the next time you see the Pirates sign another DFA off the scrap heap.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

When is the last time they sidestepped a draft pick due to money?

The Cardinals and Cubs both have not played their big trade line additions in prominent roles.

The Cubs and Cardinals both made several DFA moves, including the Cubs picking up Clayton Richard from the Pirates.

This all feels very facile and antiquated.

 

[NTOP]

The everyday lineup of this team is full of holes. The entire infield is filled with has beens and never weres. Nustack's position that he can develop a championship team through the consistent maturation of the entire team's players at the same time is a pipe dream-his minor league system is horribly overrated and he has way too many holes in his everyday lineup. This is a lineup that hasn't had a first baseman since the beginning of time and scored a grand total of 1 run in their last 3 playoff games.The Pirates don't have the quality of hitters that allow them to rough up guys like Wainright and Arrieta the way the Cards and Cubs roughed up the Pirates' best pitchers in the playoffs. His scouting and drafts have been spotty at best. How can you defend first round draft picks like Alvarez, Sanchez and Moskoll? They focused on pitching in their drafts and they don"t even have a surfeit of pitching. With Burnett gone, Liriano long in the tooth and inconsistent journeymen like Locke and Morton, the rotation next year is looking weak. Look for this team to take a step backward next year. Baseball teams that get to the playoffs and then crap the bed like the Pirates have 3 consecutive years rarely stay at that level for extended periods. Nutsack had his window of opportunity and he chose to protect his wallet rather than fill the glaring holes in the team's everyday lineup to chase a championship. Unfortunately, Nutsack is happy to field a .500 team and to pretend he's interested in winning. He can then attend owners' meetings without being embarrassed, walk the streets of Pittsburgh without getting tarred and feathered and continue to bilk Pittsburgh BB fans, the dumb ones, at least, and there are apparently lots of those. Why take a sedative before bed? Just turn on the telly and watch Nutsack's crew play another snoozefest!

Nice rant. Take the meds, Del. Only one thing counts.....results. Just because YOU, in your egomaniacal clown suit, think you know how to run a ballclub, doesn't mean you do. 4th grade softball for your granddaughter isn't MLB. 24 teams spent more than Nutting....only ONE had a better year. Hint: the 1927 Yankees would be cellar-dwellers today. Maybe Nutting should trade for Wainwright and make him a rightfielder???

 

[Pittx9]

The Pirates everyday lineup is as good as any in the majors. I don't know what he was watching, unless it was after Kang went down. Of course this was also contingent on what lineup Hurdle went with on any given night. Also, I don't think another team had the depth that we do. That's the problem with the Wild Card, you put out your best lineup/pitcher for one game and that's all that matters. Pirate top 3 pitchers are better than Cubs, aside from nobody coming close to Arrieta on the Bucs.