OT: Pirates & Reds

[McKee Place]

MLB, as well as the other major pro sports (including P5 college) don't seem to need attendance to prosper, with television contracts and kickbacks from the league or conference from the haves to the have nots.

I don't think the other MLB teams (or the blue blood universities) mind a bit that there are teams like the Pirates (and Pitt football) willing to take it up the tail. As Judge Smails pointed out, the world needs ditch diggers too. The Yankees and Clemson's want someone reliable but a legitimate name to beat up on.

Boycott is folly. Most pirates games actually have very poor crowds, as do our games (maybe some of you have noticed). The team and school still get their money for what they really care about (Pirates, meaning profit; Pitt, meaning chick sports).

 

[pittdan77]

@BuffetParrothead does this all the time. His schtick is that capitalism is the result and not the process. "So and so is a business genius! Look how much money he's made!" Yeah, Nutting got millions of dollars from his family, bought a team, watched it win about 47% of its games over 12 years, never won a playoff series, and now the team is worth a lot more. Bob Nutting is a real sports visionary alright.

But he will also simultaneously claim you're a terrible human being if you don't willingly participate in the scam. Because that's what it is. There's not business model anywhere else where you can LEGALLY fleece a city and state for billions and then pretend like it's the fan's fault because you run the organization like a bad fast food franchise despite promising to make the team competitive to get the billions.

 

[pittdan77]

MLB, as well as the other major pro sports (including P5 college) don't seem to need attendance to prosper, with television contracts and kickbacks from the league or conference from the haves to the have nots.

I don't think the other MLB teams (or the blue blood universities) mind a bit that there are teams like the Pirates (and Pitt football) willing to take it up the tail. As Judge Smails pointed out, the world needs ditch diggers too. The Yankees and Clemson's want someone reliable but a legitimate name to beat up on.

Boycott is folly. Most pirates games actually have very poor crowds, as do our games (maybe some of you have noticed). The team and school still get their money for what they really care about (Pirates, meaning profit; Pitt, meaning chick sports).

You just perfectly outlined the argument for not bothering with an on-campus stadium.

 

[lilspainishflea]

MLB, as well as the other major pro sports (including P5 college) don't seem to need attendance to prosper, with television contracts and kickbacks from the league or conference from the haves to the have nots.

I don't think the other MLB teams (or the blue blood universities) mind a bit that there are teams like the Pirates (and Pitt football) willing to take it up the tail. As Judge Smails pointed out, the world needs ditch diggers too. The Yankees and Clemson's want someone reliable but a legitimate name to beat up on.

Boycott is folly. Most pirates games actually have very poor crowds, as do our games (maybe some of you have noticed). The team and school still get their money for what they really care about (Pirates, meaning profit; Pitt, meaning chick sports).

Here's the thing you're missing. Although I disagree with you, let's assume that Nutting gets his money whether I go to Pirates games or not. But I also keep my money and save my time and happiness if I don't go.

 

[McKee Place]

You just perfectly outlined the argument for not bothering with an on-campus stadium.

I agree, it's (one reason) why I never call for one.

 

[McKee Place]

Here's the thing you're missing. Although I disagree with you, let's assume that Nutting gets his money whether I go to Pirates games or not. But I also keep my money and save my time and happiness if I don't go.

Me too. I haven't been to one since 2001.

 

[McKee Place]

But he will also simultaneously claim you're a terrible human being if you don't willingly participate in the scam. Because that's what it is. There's not business model anywhere else where you can LEGALLY fleece a city and state for billions and then pretend like it's the fan's fault because you run the organization like a bad fast food franchise despite promising to make the team competitive to get the billions.

Many here also rip Pitt fans for not eagerly attending... i never get that. Allegiance needs to be earned, not an obligation.

 

[pittdan77]

Many here also rip Pitt fans for not eagerly attending... i never get that. Allegiance needs to be earned, not an obligation.

That's more of an argument of convenience. A "red badge of courage" if you will. Yeah, Pitt needs attendance for atmosphere but Pitt isn't in the ACC to share he gate. Everyone needs to remember that.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I don't go. I won't go. I went once since the 2015 season, and that was at an out of town customer's request. I wont and cant support this organization. Nutting is what he is, he at least can show people that winning does matter somewhat by making organizational changes.

 

[pittdan77]

I don't go. I won't go. I went once since the 2015 season, and that was at an out of town customer's request. I wont and cant support this organization. Nutting is what he is, he at least can show people that winning does matter somewhat by making organizational changes.

Yeah, but you'll hear the same fan boy arguments as always, next spring. "If this happens and if that happens and if this doesn't happen, there's a chance!" Forget about it. Even if everything goes right, it's just another season of just missing or getting thrashed again in a wild card game.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Yeah, but you'll hear the same fan boy arguments as always, next spring. "If this happens and if that happens and if this doesn't happen, there's a chance!" Forget about it. Even if everything goes right, it's just another season of just missing or getting thrashed again in a wild card game.

I have been fairly steadfast in this. I don't care if the Pirates lose 100 games. This year. Next year. Just have a plan. Be honest with yourselves (organizationally) for once instead of just trying to fool the fanbase. You aren't going to be contenders every year, the Yankees aren't. As much as their payroll, the Dodgers, they really also develop alot of talent.

Burn it down. Trade your tradeable assets. Fire management. Get payroll down to $50 million if you have to, then build it back with a completely new management team. Now here's the key, when your team is good, ADD! Push up your salary for a couple of years. Try to win.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Re: Buffet....

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

When PNC Park needs to be replaced in 10-15 years

Why on earth would PNC Park need replaced in 10-15 years? Are they going to stop doing maintenance on it soon?

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I'll add that the other owners aren't happy with this circus. They don't want to share money with a club that isn't trying and weakens the brand.

Actually most of the other owners probably love Bob Nutting. If you owned the Dodgers or the Mets or some other National League team and you were really trying to make it to the World Series wouldn't you be perfectly content with sending a few of your "competitors" some money basically in exchange for them not trying? If you owned the Yankees or the Red Sox wouldn't it be worth a few dollars every year to keep a team happy enough (and rich enough) that they aren't ever going to seriously compete with you in the marketplace for players?

Most MLB team owners want to win. If some of the teams aren't really trying that's GOOD for the owners of the teams that are trying, not bad for them.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Actually most of the other owners probably love Bob Nutting. If you owned the Dodgers or the Mets or some other National League team and you were really trying to make it to the World Series wouldn't you be perfectly content with sending a few of your "competitors" some money basically in exchange for them not trying? If you owned the Yankees or the Red Sox wouldn't it be worth a few dollars every year to keep a team happy enough (and rich enough) that they aren't ever going to seriously compete with you in the marketplace for players?

Most MLB team owners want to win. If some of the teams aren't really trying that's GOOD for the owners of the teams that are trying, not bad for them.

That's exactly it. With guys like Bob Nutting, that is one less franchise I need to worry about. Secondly, it is great, it is also another franchise that if it ever develops high end talent, they will never keep them once they reach free agent eligibility, one less team they have to compete with in signing these guys.

Plus, hey it is obvious Bob is okay. He never seems to vote against these contracts. At least in the NHL, the small market teams band together and shut down the league to make sure it doesn't get out of hand. In the NFL, the NFLPA caves to anything, so it doesn't matter.

 

[lilspainishflea]

Why on earth would PNC Park need replaced in 10-15 years? Are they going to stop doing maintenance on it soon?

PNC Park is 18 years old and, as good as it is, it's not a historic venue like Fenway or Wrigley. It will not be around forever. Yes, I expect Nutting to start crying about a replacement by the time it's about 30-35 years old.

 

[pittdan77]

Actually most of the other owners probably love Bob Nutting. If you owned the Dodgers or the Mets or some other National League team and you were really trying to make it to the World Series wouldn't you be perfectly content with sending a few of your "competitors" some money basically in exchange for them not trying? If you owned the Yankees or the Red Sox wouldn't it be worth a few dollars every year to keep a team happy enough (and rich enough) that they aren't ever going to seriously compete with you in the marketplace for players?

Most MLB team owners want to win. If some of the teams aren't really trying that's GOOD for the owners of the teams that are trying, not bad for them.

That view is probably right in the short term. The problem is that the players union sees Pittsburgh (and a handful of other clubs) as a hurdle to elevating payroll (artificially limits demand). The other owners know it.

 

[pittdan77]

PNC Park is 18 years old and, as good as it is, it's not a historic venue like Fenway or Wrigley. It will not be around forever. Yes, I expect Nutting to start crying about a replacement by the time it's about 30-35 years old.

Or an expensive overhaul. Either way, it's coming.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

It's amazing the difference in this team when the big bopper in the middle of the lineup is hitting.

 

[RingDinger]

Or an expensive overhaul. Either way, it's coming.

I think PNC Park will be around for a long time. The fans aren't going to fund another stadium in the Nutting regime, and the logistics will be a bit more difficult this time around.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I think PNC Park will be around for a long time. The fans aren't going to fund another stadium in the Nutting regime, and the logistics will be a bit more difficult this time around.

Absolutely. Taxpayer funding for anything related to baseball and the Nuttings will be political suicide.

 

[FreeportPanther]

It isn't like PNC Park is getting hard use!!
Most seats only used a half a dozen times a year, at most.
Just keep watering the grass.....

 

[RingDinger]

It isn't like PNC Park is getting hard use!!
Most seats only used a half a dozen times a year, at most.
Just keep watering the grass.....

I wonder what the record for most losing seasons while in one stadium is and how long PNC would have to be around for us to give that a run.

 

[BuffetParrothead]

@BuffetParrothead does this all the time. His schtick is that capitalism is the result and not the process. "So and so is a business genius! Look how much money he's made!" Yeah, Nutting got millions of dollars from his family, bought a team, watched it win about 47% of its games over 12 years, never won a playoff series, and now the team is worth a lot more. Bob Nutting is a real sports visionary alright.

Recruits thanks for letting me know that making the most money doesn't get a team to the world series. Maybe it should?

As the article that I posted said Nutting doesn't care that you people are
pissed off because the Pirates lose.
If he cared he spend more money and try to win.

As the Spanishflea posts:

Yeah, Nutting got millions of dollars from his family, bought a team, watched it win about 47% of its games over 12 years, never won a playoff series, and now the team is worth a lot more. Bob Nutting is a real sports visionary.

He and his family are very rich and getting richer everyday!

Nutting is a businessman first and a sports guy 2nd or maybe 3rd.
I don't think he's trying to be a sports visionary.

Owning a sports franchise isn't all about winning and its not a non
profit business to please a few grumpy old fans in Pittsburgh.

Owners have different goals. Some use the sports franchise as a tax loss vehicle to
offset profits from other businesses. They could care less if the win or lose.

Owning a sports franchise is a business investment with the objective of balancing winning
making money and increasing the value of his investment.

Nutting has figured out if he spends more he wins a few more games, he'd have to spend
a lot more to win a championship and a World Series so he chooses to do what he's doing.

If the fan boycott caused his franchise to lose value he's probably spend more money and try to win!
Seems to me the fan boycott hasn't been very successful. Maybe its th 6-8 games Mrs Buffett and I attend that kill the boycott?

Go Pirates!

 

[pittdan77]

I think PNC Park will be around for a long time. The fans aren't going to fund another stadium in the Nutting regime, and the logistics will be a bit more difficult this time around.

I don't know that I buy into that logic. The fans (and the taxpayers) voted "no" to paying for PNC and Heinz. Guess what?

 

[RingDinger]

I don't know that I buy into that logic. The fans (and the taxpayers) voted "no" to paying for PNC and Heinz. Guess what?

1) Three Rivers was falling apart, and there was no way this city was not going to give the Steelers a new place to play. If you did that, you had to include the Pirates.

2) PNC Park is one of the best stadiums in the country. Demolishing it wouldn't be very popular around here.

3) I'm no structural engineer, but those cookie cutter stadiums seemed to have a fairly definitive shelf life. to the untrained eye, PNC seems to have better bones.

4) It was simple when you had one shit hole stadium and could build new stadiums on either side of it. I'm not sure how easy it would be now, assuming you wanted to stay on the North Shore. I'm not doubting that they would find a way, and of course the Steelers will be catered to long before the Pirates (and rightfully so), so guess - Southpointe or Craberry moves not withstanding - we'll see what things look like after that. But it's still another component to consider when factoring in general public disdain toward the whole endeavor.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

That view is probably right in the short term. The problem is that the players union sees Pittsburgh (and a handful of other clubs) as a hurdle to elevating payroll (artificially limits demand). The other owners know it.

The other owners know it, but why would they care? There is already a mechanism in place that specifically addresses the union's concern, and every time the union has made a complaint about the Pirates it has not held up under the rules in place. And if expanding those rules to force the Pirates to spend a little more is something the union desperately wants (and they may very well), then the owners are going to demand some other sort of concession from the union to agree to that. Which is, once again, a win for the big market owners.

If the Pirates and the Marlins are forced to spend $10 million more per season on payroll that's a drop in the bucket compared to what the Red Sox and Dodgers and Yankees do. That won't affect them at all, but you can bet that the concession they get from the union in exchange for that will benefit them, because that's the way that it works.

 

[USN_Panther]

Likely the only way out of this is for Nutting to die. This is how Daniel Snyder (probably the worst owner in sports, as he spends heaps of money and still consistently fails) came to own the Redskins. Jack Kent Cooke paid for and built the Redskins stadium then went off and died. His family could not afford the estate taxes on the team, so had to sell. I think most of us actually want him to die. But there is a very real practical reason for us to wish that upon him, so we can want that and not have to feel guilty about it.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Likely the only way out of this is for Nutting to die. This is how Daniel Snyder (probably the worst owner in sports, as he spends heaps of money and still consistently fails) came to own the Redskins. Jack Kent Cooke paid for and built the Redskins stadium then went off and died. His family could not afford the estate taxes on the team, so had to sell. I think most of us actually want him to die. But there is a very real practical reason for us to wish that upon him, so we can want that and not have to feel guilty about it.

Well that is a bit harsh. I am just hoping he is caught abusing little kids and MLB forces him to sell on morals and corruption clauses.

 

[pitt2533]

Well that is a bit harsh. I am just hoping he is caught abusing little kids and MLB forces him to sell on morals and corruption clauses.

I'd rather he die than abuse some kids..... Probably a poor choice there....

I hate the guy. I think he is as bad of an owner as there is.

 

[Ronnyp91]

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

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No problem. This offseason the Pirates will sign Garrit Cole and Madison Baumgarner. And probably Yasmani Grandel at catcher too.

 

[FreeportPanther]

I'd rather he die than abuse some kids..... Probably a poor choice there....

I hate the guy. I think he is as bad of an owner as there is.

Probably??

 

[RingDinger]

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Damn. Two Tommy John surgeries... testicular cancer... getting drafted by the Pirates. Dude can't catch a break.

 

[HopeandChangeforAntoons]

I'd rather he die than abuse some kids..... Probably a poor choice there....

I hate the guy. I think he is as bad of an owner as there is.

I think this choice was Alby's nightly sports talk question the other night.

 

[McKee Place]

I've honestly not ever felt embittered toward the guy. He's merely exploited the defined parameters in the business in which he's engaged. He's breaking no laws and the other owners are fine with how he operates. Just like how Pitt chooses to run its revenue sports.

As a wide eyed customer of Pitt football I walk in to Heinz (or tune in on TV to away games) every week knowing Pitt likely will lose (when it's a legitimate opponent anyway) and it would probably take Powerball type luck for Pitt to ever sniff a national title again. Pirates fans are mostly just as knowing. In the current model that ownership willingly chooses, the Pirates won't ever win another World Series.

Yeah it can be frustrating, because in Pitt's case especially, but also the Pirates, both entities are leaving solid opportunities on the table by choosing to lose as they do. A Pitt NC run would lift so many boats, academically in particular. The Pirates success would bring some added spotlight and boost what is still a rather moribund region, which largely only has its sports teams as rallying and unifying forces (sorry, not bike lanes).

But ultimately nobody is forcing either of us to attend or follow.

 

[FreeportPanther]

I've honestly not ever felt embittered toward the guy. He's merely exploited the defined parameters in the business in which he's engaged. He's breaking no laws and the other owners are fine with how he operates. Just like how Pitt chooses to run its revenue sports.

As a wide eyed customer of Pitt football I walk in to Heinz (or tune in on TV to away games) every week knowing Pitt likely will lose (when it's a legitimate opponent anyway) and it would probably take Powerball type luck for Pitt to ever sniff a national title again. Pirates fans are mostly just as knowing. In the current model the Pirates won't ever win another world series.

Yeah it can be frustrating, because in Pitt's case especially, but also the Pirates, both entities are leaving solid opportu ities on the table by choosing to lose as they do. But ultimately nobody is forcing either of us to attend or follow.

Cubs and Red Sox fans went many decades without a championship and they were in big markets and spent and tried.
It can change fast but no confidence that Nutting wants it even if it could be done relatively cheaply.
He just seems disinterested.

 

[McKee Place]

Cubs and Red Sox fans went many decades without a championship and they were in big markets and spent and tried.
It can change fast but no confidence that Nutting wants it even if it could be done relatively cheaply.
He just seems disinterested.

Oh absolutely, trying is no guarantee of success... but NOT trying IS a guarantee of NO success.

But as a fan/customer, you'd like to feel a little less... mentally deficient... for following a team. But as a Pitt fan seeing year after year of ... ethically challenged programs winning championships and massive glory (and profits) while my team is out of meaningful contention for anything by mid Sept (Compass Bowls notwithstanding) ... you start to feel kinda stupid. I imagine that would be true for loyal Bucco fans, looking up from last place at mostly every team (even Milwaukee or Cincy) that spends more, most if not every year.

Hey I'm glad Pitt can create a girl's lacrosse team on the backs of fans of its real sports...or that Nutting can wax the ski jumps at 7 springs or whatever other kicks he gets with his profits on the backs of Randy Quaid-like doofi who loyally sit at his games. But that only goes so far.

 

[HopeandChangeforAntoons]

Hey I'm glad Pitt can create a girl's lacrosse team on the backs of fans of its real sports...

You say that like Pitt is making a choice to fund women's lacrosse to spite football. Pitt needs to fund women's scholarship sports to be Title IX compliant in order to receive federal support. That is to say nothing about any requirements, or at least preference, that the ACC has for participation in women's athletics.

Besides, if you feel that strongly about it, you can donate directly to the Championship Funds for Football or Men's Basketball.

 

[RingDinger]

Cubs and Red Sox fans went many decades without a championship and they were in big markets and spent and tried.
It can change fast but no confidence that Nutting wants it even if it could be done relatively cheaply.
He just seems disinterested.

Yes, we can absolutely succeed under his ownership... if it's done correctly. The problem is that - instead of blowing this thing up, acknowledging that it's going to take 3 -5 years, and really trying to stockpile A/AA talent - Huntington (either at Nutting's behest or due to his own ignorance) continues to kick this "We think we can be competitive this year" can down the road. Every year they do it is another wasted year.

Similarly, why spend a dime in free agency during the years you know you are going to suck anyway? If they were serious about winning, they would save that money to invest during our window of opportunity years. But we all know they'd rather continue this patchwork scheme in an effort to keep people showing up.

Of course, attendance is dwindling fast, so perhaps this - in conjunction with Taillon's injury - will finally get these guys to trade Vasquez and Marte and become a little more transparent with the fans in terms of where they're at as an organization. But I wouldn't bet on it. Instead, we'll get hot in September or something, and we'll hear about how we would have been right in the thick of things for the division title had we not gone 10-35, or whatever it will be, after the All-Star Break. And then we'll do it all over again next year.