OT PIRATES

[President Stache]

Andrew McCutchen is one of the best players in baseball, is only 30 and is only owed $28 million over the next two seasons and some so called fans want to trade him for prospects? Bob Nutting loves fans like you.

I am saying it is a good baseball move to trade him. I dont like the guy much, so I am biased, but he is declining in stats each year, and we have a top prospect under him in the minors, we have Marte and Polanco in the OF already, and we need pitching.

TBH, I think Joyce and SRod leaving without a whisper is worst, we had a hell of a bench last year.

 

[President Stache]

Jose De Leon? History would repeat itself! 30-some-odd years ago, the Pirates had a promising young pitcher named . . . Jose De Leon! That earlier JDL was homegrown, up through their own farm system, but they ruined him. Given that this IS the Pirates, I wouldn't expect JDL 2.0 to work out any better.

My first ever Pirate game a near no hitter by this DeLeon, wicked stuff... total head case... kind of like Ian Snell years later

 

[paulbl99]

I am saying it is a good baseball move to trade him. I dont like the guy much, so I am biased, but he is declining in stats each year, and we have a top prospect under him in the minors, we have Marte and Polanco in the OF already, and we need pitching.

TBH, I think Joyce and SRod leaving without a whisper is worst, we had a hell of a bench last year.

trading Cutch is only good because Nutting turned a 98 win team into where we are now in what? a year and a half?

Like Branch Rickey told Kiner ...I can lose without you too ....

 

[President Stache]

trading Cutch is only good because Nutting turned a 98 win team into where we are now in what? a year and a half?

Like Branch Rickey told Kiner ...I can lose without you too ....

Look, the guy is a good baseball player, but no one can deny a lot of that lack of production falls on Cutch's back. Nutting or not. Can he turn it around? Of course, but his speed wont come back

And PS... I hated I think about every trade the Pirates made the past year.

 

[paulbl99]

Look, the guy is a good baseball player, but no one can deny a lot of that lack of production falls on Cutch's back. Nutting or not. Can he turn it around? Of course, but his speed wont come back

And PS... I hated I think about every trade the Pirates made the past year.

I'm saying if this destruction of this team wasn't taking place I'd stick with Cutch but they aren't going to win shinola now and Cutch ain't signing again

So yeah trade him

 

[Delpanther]

What is missing here are the 59,900 word 490 stat paragraphs telling all the stupid fans why Walker Cutch Happ JaHa Watson Mark Pedro Edison SeanRod et al aren't worth paying...

But Ike Davis is...

ha, ha love it....!

 

[TD_istheman]

ha, ha love it....!

Where is he , under a rock , or waiting in line already for fanfest

 

[President Stache]

In the perfect world, we have all our players for life and everyone is happy. Pirates are not in that system, baseball is flawed, but nont-the-less, we have to follow the rules. This means keep guys as long and cheaply as we can, and when the time comes we have to make a decision on whether they are worth signing to big contracts or not, then we have to make shrewd decisions, and hopefully the ones making those decisions are smart and have the lee-way to make correct decisions.

Now, that last part probably isnt happening on either count. I did think our GM was smart and one doesnt get dumb overnight... but now I am not too sure. Sure, I AM SURE, he is getting pressure for cost downs, but some of the trades are head scratchers, and seems teams are out right taking advantage of him. Now we see Nationals are 'balking' at trading their big prospects... that is certainly a move to get Cutch cheap... and now the blood is in the water, and I am sure we will do just that. But prospects vs an all star... no brainer, trade the prospects. I remember I traded 10 Cory Snyder rookie baseball cards as a kid that were worth 10 dollars each for a 1959 Mickey Mantle card. Best trade ever.

But, my money would be get the prospects if they are the one floating around yesterday. We have the guys in the minors backing them Cutch. Same with Walker and some of the others. However, we need solid pieces back, not just unloading, then you get the Pirates of the mid 90's and 00's. We had a good farm club, which is what you need when you are a small market team. That is why I hated trading 4 of our top 20 from last year to get nothing.

 

[PittHOFs]

How long have the Pirates said they are building towards 2017 being their year. LOL!!

 

[Delpanther]

In the perfect world, we have all our players for life and everyone is happy. Pirates are not in that system, baseball is flawed, but nont-the-less, we have to follow the rules. This means keep guys as long and cheaply as we can, and when the time comes we have to make a decision on whether they are worth signing to big contracts or not, then we have to make shrewd decisions, and hopefully the ones making those decisions are smart and have the lee-way to make correct decisions.

Now, that last part probably isnt happening on either count. I did think our GM was smart and one doesnt get dumb overnight... but now I am not too sure. Sure, I AM SURE, he is getting pressure for cost downs, but some of the trades are head scratchers, and seems teams are out right taking advantage of him. Now we see Nationals are 'balking' at trading their big prospects... that is certainly a move to get Cutch cheap... and now the blood is in the water, and I am sure we will do just that. But prospects vs an all star... no brainer, trade the prospects. I remember I traded 10 Cory Snyder rookie baseball cards as a kid that were worth 10 dollars each for a 1959 Mickey Mantle card. Best trade ever.
But, my money would be get the prospects if they are the one floating around yesterday. We have the guys backing them up. Same with Walker and some of the others. However, we need solid pieces back, not just unloading, then you get the Pirates of the mid 90's and 00's.

Nutsack's fingerprints are all over this... All about the greenbacks

 

[TeamLuke]

Nutsack's fingerprints are all over this... All about the greenbacks

So del.. leaving nutting out of this (we all know he's cheap, cool), how do you want the Pirates to handle mccutchen?

 

[Harve74]

trading Cutch is only good because Nutting turned a 98 win team into where we are now in what? a year and a half?

Like Branch Rickey told Kiner ...I can lose without you too ....

Uh, we went from a 98-win team to our record last season largely because Cutch became an average hitter with among the worst defensive stats of any CF. Admittedly, he wasn't the only guy who dropped off. Injuries to key guys like Cole, Cervelli and Kang crippled them.,

 

[Delpanther]

So del.. leaving nutting out of this (we all know he's cheap, cool), how do you want the Pirates to handle mccutchen?

Given the fact that they signed him on the cheap to a long term contract in the first instance, I'd like them to give him the chance to rebound next year- the guy's only 30 years old! If he rebounds, then I'd like them to take a legitimate shot at resigning him at market value- they've already saved a bundle under his current contract-Cespedes just signed a deal in which the annual salary is almost twice what Cutch gets under his current contract. Yea, if he doesn't rebound or they can't resign him then they get nothing in return when he leaves but when you consider their lack of leverage they have in trying to trade him now and consider the absolute garbage they got for Walker and Liriano(under similar circumstances) giving him the chance to rebound and resigning him is the route to go, in my opinion. Without him there's a huge hole in the Pirates' lineup which isn't very good to begin with.

But therein lies the rub- the Pirates have essentially concluded that even if he rebounds that they won't pay him what the market says he's worth so they want yo get rid of him now. Had he had a great year last year, I believe they would still be trying to trade him. The Pirates' operating paradigm leads to one thing : continual mediocrity at best.

 

[paulbl99]

Uh, we went from a 98-win team to our record last season largely because Cutch became an average player with among the worst defensive stats of any CF. Admittedly, he wasn't the only guy who dropped off. Injuries to key guys like Cole, Cervelli and Kang crippled them.,

Uh read the post -- I specifically said to NOW as in today.
You're soon going to be looking at a team with almost no chance to win 82 games.

 

[Delpanther]

Uh, we went from a 98-win team to our record last season largely because Cutch became an average player with among the worst defensive stats of any CF. Admittedly, he wasn't the only guy who dropped off. Injuries to key guys like Cole, Cervelli and Kang crippled them.,

Wrong, the Pirates demise last year was largely due to a horrible starting staff that went into the toilet.

 

[TeamLuke]

Given the fact that they signed him on the cheap to a long term contract in the first instance, I'd like them to give him the chance to rebound next year- the guy's only 30 years old! If he rebounds, then I'd like them to take a legitimate shot at resigning him at market value- they've already saved a bundle under his current contract-Cespedes just signed a deal in which the annual salary is almost twice what Cutch gets under his current contract. Yea, if he doesn't rebound or they can't resign him then they get nothing in return when he leaves but when you consider their lack of leverage they have in trying to trade him now and consider the absolute garbage they got for Walker and Liriano(under similar circumstances) giving him the chance to rebound and resigning him is the route to go, in my opinion. Without him there's a huge hole in the Pirates' lineup which isn't very good to begin with.

But therein lies the rub- the Pirates have essentially concluded that even if he rebounds that they won't pay him what the market says he's worth so they want yo get rid of him now. Had he had a great year last year, I believe they would still be trying to trade him. The Pirates' operating paradigm leads to one thing : continual mediocrity at best.

The problem is that you're then going to pay for mccutchens declining years. Money can be better spent in other places (again, not a nutting discussion on whether he will spend that money or not, just in theory). We don't need contracts like pujols, teixeira, Hamilton, arod etc.. killing the team

 

[mvk112]

Uh, we went from a 98-win team to our record last season largely because Cutch became an average player with among the worst defensive stats of any CF. Admittedly, he wasn't the only guy who dropped off. Injuries to key guys like Cole, Cervelli and Kang crippled them.,

Going into season with Locke, Niese, and Nicasio (with Vogelsong in reserve) in the rotation doomed this team to under .500, not the play of Cutch.

They were a top 5/6 offense in the NL, but a bottom 5 pitching staff in the NL.

 

[President Stache]

Going into season with Locke, Niese, and Nicasio (with Vogelsong in reserve) in the rotation doomed this team to under .500, not the play of Cutch.

They were a top 5/6 offense in the NL, but a bottom 5 pitching staff in the NL.

Yes, but regardless, Cutch massively under performed. COmpletely agree on why we were sub 500, pitching wins. Imagine if we gave Happ 11 mil.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

This is the tipping point. I don't know why people are surprised. But the anger and angst around this is not specifically centered around trading McCutcheon per se, or it shouldn't be. It is the overall direction and moves from this franchise over the past year. Not just now.

You had a 98 win team....you lose 3/5 of your starting rotation (Burnett to retirement, Happ to FA and Morton to trade no big loss on the latter) and you decide Juan Nicasio and Ryan Vogelsong plus "the kids" will make for an adequate starting rotation. Realizing you had club friendly deals with most of your players, including Cutch, and losing Burnett's salary, you don't resign Happ who signed for a fairly favorable contract.

You trade Neil Walker for shit. You DFA Pedro Alvarez.

Note: Pirate fans need to stop with the $10-12 million is a lot of money. Of course it is a lot, but for a starting pitcher, it is not "a lot". It is fairly average for a third starter. Sorry, stop with this "This is Pittsburgh, we work hard for our money crap". Pittsburgh is not special. They are in the MLB. If this ownership can't afford these salaries, if they can't afford a 120 million payroll (Note...the EFFING CAN!) then they shouldn't own a baseball team, or bring in other investors!

Anyways, then you had this season when you dumped Mark Melancon, you traded Liriano, so desperate to give away his salary, you traded prospects to convince someone to take on his full salary. The Pirates remark on how they now have "financial flexibility". You predictably miss the playoffs and drop from 98 to 78 wins.

And with your financial flexibility this offseason, you lose SRod and Matt Joyce, two key bench utility guys. This FA class is crap, doesn't matter, you aren't going to sign anyone of note anyways. What are you going to spend money on?

Now you are going to trade your franchise player, Andrew McCutcheon. McCutcheon could have had an MVP season last year, doesn't matter the plan was to trade him all along. What are you doing with this money? This financial flexibility. If say the Pirates were trading Cutch as part of package to get Chris Sale, then you can say "hey, they are really trying to improve the team" and still try to win now. They are not. They are looking at young prospects, which maybe good someday, but you effectively are starting the cycle over again. That is the goal, be good enough to all you Nutsack bobblehead monkeys will run down on fireworks nights and go weeeee.....weeeeee.... Pirate fans are tools. They don't care about winning.

You have 1 WC game victory to show for all of these high draft picks and all of these wins.

That is why I am pissed, and I think a lot of fans are pissed. If trading Andrew McCutcheon finally makes people here realizing that this ownership is a fraud, then they haven't been paying attention. Because honestly, they (the Pirates) have been lucky IMO in many instances moreso than shrewd.

 

[Delpanther]

The problem is that you're then going to pay for mccutchens declining years. Money can be better spent in other places (again, not a nutting discussion on whether he will spend that money or not, just in theory). We don't need contracts like pujols, teixeira, Hamilton, arod etc.. killing the team

Depends on how many years you sign him for. He's only 30. Many great players have remained productive into their late30's. And you can't ignore he signed at a huge discount the first time he signed for a long term deal. The saved money can be spent on better things ? Like what? Ski lifts at 7 springs? Nutting doesn't reinvest money saved on deals like the Liriano and Walker deals- he simply pockets it.You have bought into the Nutting paradigm. Either compete or sell the team!

 

[Swervin27]

As a proud member of the Nutsack bobblehead monkey group, i would like to correct you by stating that none of us yell weeeee.....weeeeee.... during the fireworks.. Maybe a couple "oooohs and aaaahs" but never have I heard an audible weeeee..weeeeee.

 

[TeamLuke]

Depends on how many years you sign him for. He's only 30. Many great players have remained productive into their late30's. And you can't ignore they signed at a huge discount the first time he signed for a long term deal. The saved money can be spent on better things ? Like what? Ski lifts at 7 springs? Nutting doesn't reinvest money saved on deals like the Liriano and Walker deals- he simply pockets it.You have bought into the Nutting paradigm. Either compete or sell the tam!

Andrew Mccutchen agreed to that contract, the pirates don't owe him anything because it ended up being team friendly.

Austin meadows is in aaa and almost ready, gotta trade somebody

 

[Delpanther]

As a proud member of the Nutsack bobblehead monkey group, i would like to correct you by stating that none of us yell weeeee.....weeeeee.... during the fireworks.. Maybe a couple "oooohs and aaaahs" but never have I heard an audible weeeee..weeeeee.

I heard you ... It was definitely wee, wee you uttered,,,in between bites of kielbasa(sorry)

 

[Delpanther]

Andrew Mccutchen agreed to that contract, the pirates don't owe him anything because it ended up being team friendly.

Austin meadows is in aaa and almost ready, gotta trade somebody

Never said they did but it's all part of the financial assessment of what they should pay to retain him. Austin Meadows, another phenom like the stiff pitchers they brought up last year. You're a bobblehead man sorry to say. Enjoy the bobbleheads because that's all you're going to get out of this ownership.

 

[TeamLuke]

Never said they did but it's all part of the financial assessment of what they should pay to retain him. Austin Meadows, another phenom like the stiff pitchers they brought up last year. You're a bobblehead man sorry to say. Enjoy the bobbleheads because that's all you're going to get out of this ownership.

Taillon had a 3.38 era, he was very good. Kuhl showed flashes, not sure what more you expected from rookie pitchers.

I got a couple posts out of you that didn't include bashing nutting and throwing out bobbleheads and fireworks, so I'll count that as a win

 

[Delpanther]

Taillon had a 3.38 era, he was very good. Kuhl showed flashes, not sure what more you expected from rookie pitchers.

I got a couple posts out of you that didn't include bashing nutting and throwing out bobbleheads and fireworks, so I'll count that as a win

Taillon may make a second, third starter on the staff. Kuhn is a Locke/Morton redo at best. We had a pretty good discussion. Beat em Bucs!

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Here's another thing.....they aren't going to resign Cole. Cole is going to start reaching his high ticket arbitration years. And truthfully, I wouldn't sign Cole to some $150 million contract either, he hasn't been that good or durable.

But...you have to spend money somewhere. That is the whole point. Trading McCutcheon if you get quality return back is not an issue, trading for other prospects are.

Think about it.....since that 3rd Wild Card game loss against the Cubs and Arrieta, the 98 win team the Pirates have...
Gotten rid of Neil Walker and his $9 millon/year.
Retired AJ Burnett which brought his ~$10 million a year contract off the books.
Traded Charlie Morton and his $8 million a year contract is off the books.
Did not tender Pedro and his $7.5 Million a year.
Traded Mark Melancon and his ~$8-10 million a year contract
Traded Frankie Liriano and his ~$13 million a year contract.
Did not resign SRod and Joyce, both around $5.5 million a year.
Will trade Cutch and his $14 million a year contract.

That is almost $80 million in yearly salary that has come off the books over the course of a year.

Where is it going? They signed Polanco to a long term but fairly club friendly deal. JHay was upped (stupidly) $5 million a year. They extended Cervelli. And? What?? What???

I know that is a bit overly simplistic, but it is not the exact dollars that really matters or the extent of the contracts, it is the fact they have shedded a tremendous amount of money and have not put anything back into the team.

To translate math into English. THEY AREN'T ****ING TRYING TO WIN! AT ALL!

 

[Pitt Law '04]

Uh, we went from a 98-win team to our record last season largely because Cutch became an average player with among the worst defensive stats of any CF. Admittedly, he wasn't the only guy who dropped off. Injuries to key guys like Cole, Cervelli and Kang crippled them.,

That was part of it. But we also declined (in larger part in my opinion) because of horrible starting pitching. And the fact that our starting staff was extremely poor relates directly to the amount of money the franchise was willing to invest (or not invest) in acquiring or paying for such pitching.

After the 2015 season, AJ retired, we traded Charlie Morton in what was an obvious salary dump, didn't sign JA Happ, then tried to complete our starting rotation with signing Vogelsong and Juan Nicasio to one year deals.

That resulted in a starting rotation that included Niese (who we acquired so we wouldn't have to pay Walker's salary), Nicasio, and Jeff Locke. Management put that starting rotation together after the team won 98 games the year before and had most of its major pieces intact.

Tell me more about how the franchise is committed to winning.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

The Pirates just signed 32 year old LH reliever Wade Leblanc for like some Cheezits and a used bat. You know what this means?? Tony Watson likely will be dealt now shedding more salary.

 

[Delpanther]

Here's another thing.....they aren't going to resign Cole. Cole is going to start reaching his high ticket arbitration years. And truthfully, I wouldn't sign Cole to some $150 million contract either, he hasn't been that good or durable.

But...you have to spend money somewhere. That is the whole point. Trading McCutcheon if you get quality return back is not an issue, trading for other prospects are.

Think about it.....since that 3rd Wild Card game loss against the Cubs and Arrieta, the 98 win team the Pirates have...
Gotten rid of Neil Walker and his $9 millon/year.
Retired AJ Burnett which brought his ~$10 million a year contract off the books.
Traded Charlie Morton and his $8 million a year contract is off the books.
Did not tender Pedro and his $7.5 Million a year.
Traded Mark Melancon and his ~$8-10 million a year contract
Traded Frankie Liriano and his ~$13 million a year contract.
Did not resign SRod and Joyce, both around $5.5 million a year.
Will trade Cutch and his $14 million a year contract.

That is almost $80 million in yearly salary that has come off the books over the course of a year.

Where is it going? They signed Polanco to a long term but fairly club friendly deal. JHay was upped (stupidly) $5 million a year. They extended Cervelli. And? What?? What???

I know that is a bit overly simplistic, but it is not the exact dollars that really matters or the extent of the contracts, it is the fact they have shedded a tremendous amount of money and have not put anything back into the team.

To translate math into English. THEY AREN'T ****ING TRYING TO WIN! AT ALL!

Nothing like the fervor of a convert....All that money they saved is in a trust somewhere sitting to be used by Nutsack's children and grandchildren. The crazy thing is that after all the money they have saved, they are hell bent on saving more money and blowing up what they have to start all over again. This is a ponzie scheme and not a BB franchise.

 

[h2p_5150]

Another bridge year coming. We all know where this bridge is headed. to mediocrity.

 

[Delpanther]

Another bridge year coming. We all know where this bridge is headed. to mediocrity.

Bridge decade?

 

[HailtoPitt]

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Nothing like the fervor of a convert....All that money they saved is in a trust somewhere sitting to be used by Nutsack's children and grandchildren. The crazy thing is that after all the money they have saved, they are hell bent on saving more money and blowing up what they have to start all over again. This is a ponzie scheme and not a BB franchise.

Not a convert, just it was hard to argue and debate when they won 98 games. Sorry. It is what it was. Not saying you were wrong, but it was hard to debate against what they were doing because it worked. So you looked silly at times. All that being said, it was not like I disagreed, I laughed off a season tix sales attempt at me and didn't go to any games this past year.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

The Pirates just signed 32 year old LH reliever Wade Leblanc for like some Cheezits and a used bat. You know what this means?? Tony Watson likely will be dealt now shedding more salary.

By the way, I am serious on this post.

 

[Piranha]

Archer is on the trade block. He is locked up for 5 years/ $39 million. Go make a trade for him.

 

[Delpanther]

Not a convert, just it was hard to argue and debate when they won 98 games. Sorry. It is what it was. Not saying you were wrong, but it was hard to debate against what they were doing because it worked. So you looked silly at times. All that being said, it was not like I disagreed, I laughed off a season tix sales attempt at me and didn't go to any games this past year.

I looked silly? That's amusing.

 

[Delpanther]

By the way, I am serious on this post.

of course...they're blowing everything up ansd starting over. It's become obvious that Nutsack and his brain trust(use that term loosely) had a strategy meeting before the winter meetings and it was agreed that they would essentially shed as much payroll as possible and pretty much build from scratch. Watson's gone. Take a look at that pitching staff and that starting lineup after they jettison Cutch....70 win team, I'd say.

 

[Pantherman43]

So del.. leaving nutting out of this (we all know he's cheap, cool), how do you want the Pirates to handle mccutchen?

Start McCutchen this season and hope he gets it going or close and off him in a deal with Cole somewhere. Might as well get something for Cole before he signs out west. Call up Meadows and go from there.

 

[Delpanther]

Start McCutchen this season and hope he gets it going or close and off him in a deal with Cole somewhere. Might as well get something for Cole before he signs out west. Call up Meadows and go from there.

Trade anyone with any value, every year....think bobblehead, bobbblehead.....