I definitely agree with you on 2, said it way early in this thread, surprised the Pirates had to throw in a prospect let alone 2.
OT. Pirates trade
- Thread starter pittbb80
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I guess my only reply/question is how is Ortiz a way more proven commodity than Horowitz, or a proven commodity at all. Wasn’t last year primarily his only year of MLB experience same as Horowitz?
Horwitz is a little over a year older and has about half as much MLB experience as Ortiz.
Ortiz has pitched 238 innings. Some of that was out of the bullpen, so I don't know how you pro-rate it to a full season other than to say the average MLB starter probably throws about 200 innings in a season.
Horwitz has 367 career at-bats. What's and everyday start get - about 600, give or take?
You guys are waaayyyy overvaluing Ortiz. He has one good pitch. Barely struck anyone out last year, and had issues with walks his entire career up until last season. He is a middle reliever. He doesn't have the stuff to make it as a starter, and to get an average starter at a position of need is selling High on Ortiz.
Both prospects are lefties who don't even touch 90 on the radar gun, relief pitchers at best. So they basically gave up nothing for a potential starting 1B. He has hit in the minors, doesn't have any glaring red flags from last season (good contact rate, low K's, decent power), and should only get better. Guys bloom late all of the time (ie Brent Rooker, Christian Walker). Not saying he's on their level, but no reason to think last season was a fluke
Both prospects are lefties who don't even touch 90 on the radar gun, relief pitchers at best. So they basically gave up nothing for a potential starting 1B. He has hit in the minors, doesn't have any glaring red flags from last season (good contact rate, low K's, decent power), and should only get better. Guys bloom late all of the time (ie Brent Rooker, Christian Walker). Not saying he's on their level, but no reason to think last season was a fluke
It's 2024. The average MLB starter doesn't throw anywhere close to 200 innings in a season. Last year exactly four pitchers threw 200 innings. Logan Gilbert lead all of baseball with 208-2/3.
Ortiz has out-pitched his projections - agreed. But how long does he have to do it before we just say that's what he is? Wouldn't be unheard of for a 25-year-old to develop another pitch, either.
If we're calling Drew Maggi Jr. an average MLB starter but saying Ortiz, who has more impressive stats and has done it more than twice as long, is overvalued, well...
Last year was his 3rd year and he is 25. Horowitz his 2nd at age 27. Ortiz has a 3.93 era in 238ip with all the stuff to become really good especially with a good org that can develop him further. Horowitz is coming to an abysmal org that can’t develop hitters.
If you want to argue Ortiz for Horowitz is an even trade ok. But why add in 2 top 20 prospects? The most attractive thing about Horowitz to the buccos is he is cheap and controlled for many years. Now they can gush about having their 1B of the present and future until he doesn’t produce. Meanwhile this move saves them another 10-15 million that good teams would have spent to get a decent proven 1B. Will that 10-15 Million be spent on a proven player at another position of need? I’ll believe it when I see it.
There is nothing you are saying here to justify calling Ortiz a proven commodity. He’s definitely a lot closer to a Horowitz-level prospect than to a Gomez-level proven commodity.
He's not; that's why I put it in quotation marks. I was saying he's a lot more proven than the guy we got.
His fastball has pretty good movement, and I like the Guardians' chances of developing a second pitch with him over ours.
Again, you’re saying zero here to substantiate that Ortiz is a proven commodity on the level of a Gomez. Ortiz is definitely more comparable to Horowitz, namely, both are prospects with limited MLB experience. We can debate who may be the better prospect, I really liked Ortiz’ potential but I know him a lot more than I know Horowitz. It’s understandable what the Pirates were thinking, they traded from a position of surplus (assuming a team can really ever have a surplus of pitching) for a position of need, the players involved both being similar with respect to experience and potential.
And also again, I already pointed out real early in this thread that having to throw in 2 prospects along with Ortiz to get Horowitz made no sense.
I guess it went way over my head what the quotation marks meant. All I saw was you saying there were 2 proven commodities among the 3 key players in the trade, Blue Jays got one of them, Guardians one and the pirates none.
Well they're the only guys who have done it for over a full season. I would say they're the closest two players to that in this deal.
Could also say his WAR was double Joe’s in similar number of at bats, 1.2 to 0.6. Also his OPS+ was 125 compared to Joe at 92.
Horwitz showed more promise last year than Ke’Bryan Hayes, Isiah Kiner-Falefa, Jared Triolo, Billy Cook, Nick Yorke and Nick Gonzales did
Not debating your post but I don’t think you needed this trade to conclude that they will waste this opportunity with Skenes and the other good young started
They said going into the offseason they would not be a player in the free agent market. Translation was more of the same cheap pirate moves with the occasional signing to provide illusion they are trying to win
As I said this isn’t an awful trade but it’s not a very good one either. Like all trades time will tell just how good or bad this is. My gut tells me the Pirates will be on the short end of the stick here
Yeah. I would agree with this with one caveat. I think the upside for Ortiz as a starter is higher than this guy being a long term solution at first base. 5’10” singles hitters who can’t hit left handed hitting don’t have high ceilings
Singles hitter, by Pirates standards this guy is a Homerun Hitter! 12 home runs in 97 games in his 1st year of MLB. That translates to 20 HR’s over a full year. For most teams that wouldn’t classify as a homerun hitter, but for the Pirates it sure does. How many guys did we have with 20 home runs last year? I’m guessing 3 at the most.
And as a bonus, this guy does it while still having a plus batting avg and OBP, not your typical homerun hitter!!
There are few things more depressing, as a Pirates fan, than seeing the stat lines flash across the screen for guys who are hitting in like the 8 and 9 holes for the Dodgers and Yankees and then seeing what our 2 and 4 hitters are putting up.
Kyle Tucker of the Astros reportedly on the trading block. For everyone complaining about how the Pirates are going to waste Skenes’ few years here doing nothing but making trades for insignificant players such as Horowitz, now there’s a guy that could make a more substantial difference if added to the lineup.
Of course, coming down to earth and thinking realistically, this type of trade would never remotely be considered by the Pirates. Especially when Tucker’s set to be a free agent in 2025 and the going rate being thrown around is in the $400-500million range.
Anyone that follows the Pirates and wasn’t born yesterday should be giddy about the Horowitz trade, can’t expect much better in today’s MLB world.
Of course, coming down to earth and thinking realistically, this type of trade would never remotely be considered by the Pirates. Especially when Tucker’s set to be a free agent in 2025 and the going rate being thrown around is in the $400-500million range.
Anyone that follows the Pirates and wasn’t born yesterday should be giddy about the Horowitz trade, can’t expect much better in today’s MLB world.
Jason Freakin Thompson bro. Kevin young was good for a very brief time too.
Being giddy about this trade is bit over the top. Hard to be giddy about a trade that doesn’t move the needle much. Ie more close but no cigar seasons. And by cigar I’m simply talking about making the playoffs
as I’ve said it’s not an awful trade either. It just doesn’t get them over the hump IMO
Throwing the ‘giddy’ in there was just playing around, not really serious. The primary point I was looking to make is that someone like Tucker is the type of addition we need but will never happen whereas a Horowitz addition is the type we should all be accustomed to and isn’t as bad as most in here are making it out to be. Only time will tell how bad it is or isn’t.
Only one man could both play first base and handle a mound of sneeze as big as the first base line. And for that, we must salute Rob Mackowiak.
But Adam LaRoche had some pretty good seasons here as well.
laroche always annoyed me. his stats looked good but dude would always hit like a 2 or 3 home run when we were down 9. when it mattered, he never got a clutch hit. or so it seemed like it.
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