OT: Pirates

[joeydavid]

This year's team is and always has been transitional year team.

The plusses have been the outfield and catchers. I would extend Dickerson and look to move someone for other pieces of the puzzle. He and Marte are the only 2 truly proven outfielders for the near term. You don't Polanco, Meadows and Martin for one spot.

The infield is very average to just below average. Harrison, Mercer and Moran are all easily replaceable with younger talent. It's good that Bell is finally looking like the player we thought he was going to be. Maybe he becomes the building block for the future. Not to too excite about Moran at this point but he's still young. Harrison and Mercer should both be traded by the deadline.

The starting pitching is average with some upside due to youth. The starters need at least 2 of current group of young guys to breakout. The bullpen has been below average to bad at times and need better parts to work with. They should trade Nova by the deadline.

Playing .500 is what you would expect given the current team. They could continue to do so without Mercer, Harrison and Nova so you might as well get something for them if you can.

Long story short, the Bucs are still sellers.

Good point....that has always been the issue this year. I’m hoping the fact that this all started against some pretty good teams mean it’s different this time. I’m not sure I trust the pitching against good hitting teams.

 

[Parkview57]

Moran are all easily replaceable with younger talent

Moran is a rookie, making the min. and is not arbitration eligible until 2021

 

[Saboteur]

The Oakland A’s play in a stadium that routinely floods raw sewage and the Tampa Bay Rays play in a airport hanger, yet none of the cities listed in the above link are trying to lure them to their town. MLB doesn’t move the needle in the stadium extortion racket like the NFL does.

Maybe it should.

 

[joeydavid]

Yeah, I'm aware of all of that. His age isn't the issue, it's his production.

Moran is a rookie, making the min. and is not arbitration eligible until 2021

 

[PA_Panther]

Moran is a rookie, making the min. and is not arbitration eligible until 2021

He also has the range of a 38 year old grizzled veteran who has suffered multiple knee injuries.

 

[jtownknowitall]

Moran is a rookie, making the min. and is not arbitration eligible until 2021

He’s the next Alex Presley

 

[Farnox]

Moran is a rookie, making the min. and is not arbitration eligible until 2021

That means he is a lock until 2021.

 

[FreeportPanther]

He’s the next Alex Presley

"Thank you......thank you very much!"

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Whether to buy or sell, I think a better question is..........is it better for the Pirates to go 7-3 or 3-7 over the next 10? Personally, I think this win streak while great and enjoyable, couldn't have come at a worse time of the year.

Just way too many teams to climb over, and we see the Dodgers already add Machado, you know teams like the Brewers, Cubs, Giants, Braves, Cards are going to add. So what do the Pirates do?

They aren't close or good enough to add big. They didn't add big when they were close and good enough. Do they ride the hotstreaks of some of these guys and hopefully their trade value increases?

I mean, the Pirates have a lot of transgressions, my main two are a) just the complete BS crap that comes out of their management's mouth, just lies and fibs and double talk and garbage and b) their unwillingness to go and commit to a direction, whether it is rebuilding or going for it. The Yankees and Dodgers retool, the Pirates don't. They have to rebuild. There is a saying in sports (hockey) "draft middle, stay middle". Meaning those who hover around .500 always hover around .500. And that seems to be the Pirates plan.

Where they are now, is exactly where they hope to be. This is the area they shoot for. Now their hope is a couple of teams have down years and maybe, just maybe someone catches a Frankie Liriano or JA Happ type of season or half season to propel them forward.

So in longwinded way, the Pirates aren't going to do anything different than they usually do. They were close to the same position now when they traded Melancon their closer a couple of years ago.

The problem with this position, it is a circle. It never advances. It just repeats itself. Oh sure, they may never lose 100 games with this philosophy and regime, but I think I can poll 1000 Pirates fans and 995 would take a 100 loss season or two if it meant a Houston Astros like ascent. But this regime will never go there.

Which is strange. Because this city no longer buys what the Pirates are selling. I believe, that this city and its fans would actually respect the Pirates more if they would say, "hey, this isn't working, we are in a stacked division, we are going to burn it down, the money we save will be used when in contention for improving the team". Then....................ACTUALLY DO IT!!! Because right now, no one is buying this, there is no trust in this franchise and it is rightfully so.

 

[jtownknowitall]

I’m not sure they have much to sell. Is any return going to materially improve future teams?

I’m also unsure if they have sufficient assets to buy.

Stand pat and see how the next two or three weeks go?

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I’m not sure they have much to sell. Is any return going to materially improve future teams?

I’m also unsure if they have sufficient assets to buy.

Stand pat and see how the next two or three weeks go?

It's about the best route.

I mean here it is......

What is Jordy Mercer or JHay or Nova or Freese really going to bring in return? Not much. So go with it......see what happens unless they tank. Now if someone over pays, that is different.

Same with Dickerson and Vasquez, the thing is OF's are a dime a dozen. So again, maybe a team will want his bat, now Vasquez, if they can get a Brad Hand like haul.......might have to think about it

 

[Panther Holla]

The current 9-game win streak is the longest since 2013. You have to go back to 2004 to find a 10-gamer (that team finished 72-89). The longest streak since 1979 was 11 straight wins, achieved in 1992 (96-66, division winners) and again in 1996 (73-89). Teams get hot. Who knows if this is sustainable. Surely this surge will muck up NH's strategy. Can he really add to the team, substantively, or are his hands tied by Nutting? Will the Pirates half-ass it with what they have? It would be sooooo Pirates to stand pat and end up tantalizingly close to, but not quite earn, a playoff berth.

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

This front office probably figures that if they stick their neck out there and make an acquisition, they'll only get burned. Like when they picked up Justin Morneau a few years ago . . . who turned out to be Justin More No.

 

[JoseLind13]

This front office probably figures that if they stick their neck out there and make an acquisition, they'll only get burned. Like when they picked up Justin Morneau a few years ago . . . who turned out to be Justin More No.

And Morneau then goes on to win the NL Batting title the next season... life as a Bucco fan is tough.

 

[Saboteur]

This front office probably figures that if they stick their neck out there and make an acquisition, they'll only get burned. Like when they picked up Justin Morneau a few years ago . . . who turned out to be Justin More No.

Recall that almost no one wanted Cory Dickerson...if you're going to make that argument, come prepared with admissions of good moves.
Now...who among us pines for Neil Walker Mendoza?

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

Recall that almost no one wanted Cory Dickerson...if you're going to make that argument, come prepared with admissions of good moves.
Now...who among us pines for Neil Walker Mendoza?

I'm talking about moves during the season to position them for the developing pennant race, which don't apply to the acquisition of Dickerson or the shedding of Walker (or for that matter, McCutchen).

 

[Saboteur]

I'm talking about moves during the season to position them for the developing pennant race, which don't apply to the acquisition of Dickerson or the shedding of Walker (or for that matter, McCutchen).

Nice when you get to cherry pick your moves. NH does what we all do unless we run the federal government: he works with a budget. Pittsburgh is a tiny market with tiny resources....The fact is that only a small handful of teams do what you suggest and they are all in markets twice the size (or more) of Pittsburgh.
Pittsburgh is lucky to have a team and whether anyone likes it or not, lucky to have an owner who isn't (or has yet to) make much more by moving them.
I'm always impressed by how willing people are to tell others how to spend their money.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Nice when you get to cherry pick your moves. NH does what we all do unless we run the federal government: he works with a budget. Pittsburgh is a tiny market with tiny resources....The fact is that only a small handful of teams do what you suggest and they are all in markets twice the size (or more) of Pittsburgh.
Pittsburgh is lucky to have a team and whether anyone likes it or not, lucky to have an owner who isn't (or has yet to) make much more by moving them.
I'm always impressed by how willing people are to tell others how to spend their money.

Pittsburgh has had a team for over 100 years. There is nothing "lucky" about it. Stupid, arrogant post.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Nice when you get to cherry pick your moves. NH does what we all do unless we run the federal government: he works with a budget. Pittsburgh is a tiny market with tiny resources....The fact is that only a small handful of teams do what you suggest and they are all in markets twice the size (or more) of Pittsburgh.
Pittsburgh is lucky to have a team and whether anyone likes it or not, lucky to have an owner who isn't (or has yet to) make much more by moving them.
I'm always impressed by how willing people are to tell others how to spend their money.

What a load of steaming crap!
Nutting is the 10th wealthiest owner in all of MLB with a net worth of $1.1 BILLION!
The Pirates franchise has been a very profitable undertaking for him. While baseball guards their books like the crown jewels, he has a can't lose situation.

His situation is greatly enhanced by the beautiful baseball stadium gifted to the Pirates by the taxpayers of Allegheny County, City of PIttsburgh, and Commonwealth of PA.
Because of the "generosity" the Pirates are legally committed to remain in Pittsburgh for the next 20 years, so there will be no moving.
Remember the promises? If the Pirates get a new stadium with the projected increased attendance the money will be plowed back into the franchise by increasing payroll and quality of roster?
What has been delivered is a payroll consistently near the bottom of all MLB!
Huntington has a terrible, no atrocious, track record for drafting and developing talent through the draft. Despite incredibly favorable positions in said drafts, the paucity of star, or even MLB prospects throughout the system is appalling! The much ballyhooed Latin American Academy, or whatever they called it, has been a monumental bust.
Remember the Miguel Sano fiasco? The Pirates had this kid in their pocket, ready to sign, on a platter, and then Nutting's cheapness entered into the picture and the Twins stole him away over a pittance in baseball currency!

The Nutting/ Huntington way is hang around .500 with as low a payroll as possible, pocket the television and payroll penalty money to guarantee the profit, and lure what fans they can with BS, fireworks and bobbleheads. If that fails, cut payroll to a level where profitability is maintained for Nutting. Rinse and repeat.

As pointed out above, your post is the height of arrogance. "Thank you sir, may I have another?" The situation is bad enough without the fans having their noses rubbed in it.
Now go back to your Bridge game, Mrs. Nutting!

 

[upj87]

What a load of steaming crap!
Nutting is the 10th wealthiest owner in all of MLB with a net worth of $1.1 BILLION!
The Pirates franchise has been a very profitable undertaking for him. While baseball guards their books like the crown jewels, he has a can't lose situation.

His situation is greatly enhanced by the beautiful baseball stadium gifted to the Pirates by the taxpayers of Allegheny County, City of PIttsburgh, and Commonwealth of PA.
Because of the "generosity" the Pirates are legally committed to remain in Pittsburgh for the next 20 years, so there will be no moving.
Remember the promises? If the Pirates get a new stadium with the projected increased attendance the money will be plowed back into the franchise by increasing payroll and quality of roster?
What has been delivered is a payroll consistently near the bottom of all MLB!
Huntington has a terrible, no atrocious, track record for drafting and developing talent through the draft. Despite incredibly favorable positions in said drafts, the paucity of star, or even MLB prospects throughout the system is appalling! The much ballyhooed Latin American Academy, or whatever they called it, has been a monumental bust.
Remember the Miguel Sano fiasco? The Pirates had this kid in their pocket, ready to sign, on a platter, and then Nutting's cheapness entered into the picture and the Twins stole him away over a pittance in baseball currency!

The Nutting/ Huntington way is hang around .500 with as low a payroll as possible, pocket the television and payroll penalty money to guarantee the profit, and lure what fans they can with BS, fireworks and bobbleheads. If that fails, cut payroll to a level where profitability is maintained for Nutting. Rinse and repeat.

As pointed out above, your post is the height of arrogance. "Thank you sir, may I have another?" The situation is bad enough without the fans having their noses rubbed in it.
Now go back to your Bridge game, Mrs. Nutting!

blah, blah, blah....10 game winning streak!...go Buccos!!

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

What a load of steaming crap!
Nutting is the 10th wealthiest owner in all of MLB with a net worth of $1.1 BILLION!
The Pirates franchise has been a very profitable undertaking for him. While baseball guards their books like the crown jewels, he has a can't lose situation.

His situation is greatly enhanced by the beautiful baseball stadium gifted to the Pirates by the taxpayers of Allegheny County, City of PIttsburgh, and Commonwealth of PA.
Because of the "generosity" the Pirates are legally committed to remain in Pittsburgh for the next 20 years, so there will be no moving.
Remember the promises? If the Pirates get a new stadium with the projected increased attendance the money will be plowed back into the franchise by increasing payroll and quality of roster?
What has been delivered is a payroll consistently near the bottom of all MLB!
Huntington has a terrible, no atrocious, track record for drafting and developing talent through the draft. Despite incredibly favorable positions in said drafts, the paucity of star, or even MLB prospects throughout the system is appalling! The much ballyhooed Latin American Academy, or whatever they called it, has been a monumental bust.
Remember the Miguel Sano fiasco? The Pirates had this kid in their pocket, ready to sign, on a platter, and then Nutting's cheapness entered into the picture and the Twins stole him away over a pittance in baseball currency!

The Nutting/ Huntington way is hang around .500 with as low a payroll as possible, pocket the television and payroll penalty money to guarantee the profit, and lure what fans they can with BS, fireworks and bobbleheads. If that fails, cut payroll to a level where profitability is maintained for Nutting. Rinse and repeat.

As pointed out above, your post is the height of arrogance. "Thank you sir, may I have another?" The situation is bad enough without the fans having their noses rubbed in it.
Now go back to your Bridge game, Mrs. Nutting!

Thank you. That post by Saboteur sounded something like Mike Lupica would write. I mean, we were one of the original NL teams, why are we "lucky" to have a franchise. We are one of the 25 biggest markets, their are 31 MLB teams, what makes us "lucky"?

I mean we all have our problems with ownership, but my god no one on here (well maybe except Del lol) expects the Pirates to spend like the Dodgers or Yankees, but the Brewers? The Reds? The Indians and Royals when they are in contention and try and go for it? Why not? I don't think that is being unreasonable. Especially when likely we can afford it as a franchise more than those teams.

 

[FreeportPanther]

blah, blah, blah....10 game winning streak!...go Buccos!!

blah, blah, blah?
Still 7 games out, and 4 games out of the last wildcard despite this amazing streak.
I guess they'll never lose another one?
This streak has been remarkable and fun to watch, but it doesn't change a thing about what I wrote regarding Nutting/Huntington.
If you don't think this streak isn't killing those two and throwing a monkey wrench into their plans, I'd like to sell you the Clemente Bridge!
Go watch Major Leagues again, we are living it!

 

[paulbl99]

As always....pitching.

But the good news, Marte and Palonco on Fire.
The possible bad news....it’s Marte and Palonco.

Xing fingers.

Other good news is some of the teams in front have played some crap ball.

 

[FreeportPanther]

As always....pitching.

But the good news, Marte and Palonco on Fire.
The possible bad news....it’s Marte and Palonco.

Xing fingers.

Other good news is some of the teams in front have played some crap ball.

What this streak makes me wonder is how did this team have that amazing losing streak that torpedoed their great start?
I put that squarely on Hurdle and the coaching staff! This group has talent as they are now showing, how could they play so bad for such a long period to completely squander their amazing start?
They just may do it, the Cards and Brewers are fading, but there are a lot of head to head games to come so anything can happen.
One thing for sure, they are back in the discussion. Worth paying attention to again.
Also, you know the Cubs won't stand pat.

 

[upj87]

blah, blah, blah?
Still 7 games out, and 4 games out of the last wildcard despite this amazing streak.
I guess they'll never lose another one?
This streak has been remarkable and fun to watch, but it doesn't change a thing about what I wrote regarding Nutting/Huntington.
If you don't think this streak isn't killing those two and throwing a monkey wrench into their plans, I'd like to sell you the Clemente Bridge!
Go watch Major Leagues again, we are living it!

More like "blah, blah, blah II --Breaking Training Conspiracy Guy" If its fun to watch then just watch and enjoy...there will plenty time in late August and September as they probably fade to come back and whine about ownership...why down us Debbie?

 

[FreeportPanther]

More like "blah, blah, blah II --Breaking Training Conspiracy Guy" If its fun to watch then just watch and enjoy...there will plenty time in late August and September as they probably fade to come back and whine about ownership...why down us Debbie?

Enjoying the team playing good/overachieving and pointing out ownership's cheapness and dishonesty does not have to be mutually exclusive!
If you believe they are going to fade in August and September, then what has actually changed?
If it's blah blah blah, then specifically refute the points raised in the post you childishly mock.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

What this streak makes me wonder is how did this team have that amazing losing streak that torpedoed their great start?

I think it shows they have a bunch of weak minded players. They find it easy to play the game (and therefore win) when everything is going their way. When the worm turns and they have an inevitable bad streak as every team does over 162 games they had no idea how to turn things around.

The interesting thing will be what happens when the hot streak ends, as it will at some point. Do they fall into a giant hole like they did for a month and a half, or do they limit the bad streak to a series or two?

 

[TIGER-PAUL]

Mind boggling. Its the same players.

 

[mike 301]

Mind boggling. Its the same players.

Baseball's a weird thing .

 

[upj87]

Enjoying the team playing good/overachieving and pointing out ownership's cheapness and dishonesty does not have to be mutually exclusive!
If you believe they are going to fade in August and September, then what has actually changed?
If it's blah blah blah, then specifically refute the points raised in the post you childishly mock.

I do not have to refute anything in that you may be correct..And we have heard it over and over and over again here. How many "Nutting is a greedy evil cheap idiot posts do we really need before a well thought out and intellectual redundancy stopping blah, blah, blah is required ? We got it. All I'm saying that it is lame (childish as you call it) to whine away about it when these guys are tearing it up. Classic "Ya But..." guy. You must be a hoot a pep rallies...

 

[FreeportPanther]

I do not have to refute anything in that you may be correct..And we have heard it over and over and over again here. How many "Nutting is a greedy evil cheap idiot posts do we really need before a well thought out and intellectual redundancy stopping blah, blah, blah is required ? We got it. All I'm saying that it is lame (childish as you call it) to whine away about it when these guys are tearing it up. Classic "Ya But..." guy. You must be a hoot a pep rallies...

Don't drop you pom poms, Mrs. Nutting.

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

Baseball's a weird thing .

All it takes is "Operation Shutout" to bring us back to reality.

 

[FreeportPanther]

All it takes is "Operation Shutout" to bring us back to reality.

 

[mike 301]

All it takes is "Operation Shutout" to bring us back to reality.

Yeah . But that pitcher for Cleveland is pretty good I think.
Oh well . We all knew the streak wouldn't last forever .

Was probably for the best .

 

[HailToPitt725]

Very crucial series for the Pirates this weekend. Too bad that Marte and Dickerson are out for it. Anything less than winning 3/4 of series is a failure.

As to what they should at the deadline, they should just stay put. The 2014 was 3 games out in July, didn’t buy much, and still made it. You’re not close enough that you should buy. They don’t have many expiring contracts and wouldn’t get a good return for Nova, Harrison, etc. Just ride it out and see where they go. Also, they may not buy, but they definitely won’t sell. They were about to burn down PNC after they thought Dickerson got taken out of the CLE series because of a trade. They sell and that’s the last straw.

 

[mike 301]

Very crucial series for the Pirates this weekend. Too bad that Marte and Dickerson are out for it. Anything less than winning 3/4 of series is a failure.

As to what they should at the deadline, they should just stay put. The 2014 was 3 games out in July, didn’t buy much, and still made it. You’re not close enough that you should buy. They don’t have many expiring contracts and wouldn’t get a good return for Nova, Harrison, etc. Just ride it out and see where they go. Also, they may not buy, but they definitely won’t sell. They were about to burn down PNC after they thought Dickerson got taken out of the CLE series because of a trade. They sell and that’s the last straw.

J Happ to the Yanks so thats off the board .

 

[HailToPitt725]

J Happ to the Yanks so thats off the board .

Wouldn’t want him anyways. I think they need to go after guys like Gray and Archer who are under team control for a few more years.

 

[mike 301]

Wouldn’t want him anyways. I think they need to go after guys like Gray and Archer who are under team control for a few more years.

Right down Nutting's alley .

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

They were about to burn down PNC after they thought Dickerson got taken out of the CLE series because of a trade.

Which is strange, because people who were paying attention knew exactly why Dickerson came out of the game. So what you are saying is that people who couldn't be bothered to pay attention to what was going on in the game cared so much about the game that they were ready to burn down PNC because of something that didn't happen.

I dunno, seems sorta odd to me.

 

[HailToPitt725]

Which is strange, because people who were paying attention knew exactly why Dickerson came out of the game. So what you are saying is that people who couldn't be bothered to pay attention to what was going on in the game cared so much about the game that they were ready to burn down PNC because of something that didn't happen.

I dunno, seems sorta odd to me.

The same ones who weren’t paying attention are the ones that “boycotted” the team because of ownership.