OT: Stonewall Jackson

[old pitt]

My grandson is a cadet at VMI. I don’t know what will happen if they try to deface or tear down Stonewall Jackson’s statue in front of their barracks. Better get ready for a fight. Every cadet has a rifle in his room, unloaded of course, but those bayonets are sharp.
Just saw that the reason for tearing down U S Grant’s bust was that he was a slave owner, yes for one year. And then there is George Washington and it goes on for ever. We can’t change history.
My great, great uncle was a cavalry officer during the Civil War. I have his diary where he says that he had a black servant that traveled with him. Was this man a paid servant or a slave? He had his share of prejudice which also existed in the north. At least he did his share and died from wounds that he received after the war.
As God is my judge, I am not a racist. It is really time to recognize that we are all equal and should be treated as such. I have seen racial relations improve in my seventy plus years, but we have a way to go.

 

[9nationalchampionships]

Debates should happen and decisions need to be made but tearing down a statue because you think it should is vandalism.

 

[TJFAIRLIE]

There is zero chance the cadets fix bayonets to defend a statue.

 

[PantherDDS]

My grandson is a cadet at VMI. I don’t know what will happen if they try to deface or tear down Stonewall Jackson’s statue in front of their barracks. Better get ready for a fight. Every cadet has a rifle in his room, unloaded of course, but those bayonets are sharp.
Just saw that the reason for tearing down U S Grant’s bust was that he was a slave owner, yes for one year. And then there is George Washington and it goes on for ever. We can’t change history.
My great, great uncle was a cavalry officer during the Civil War. I have his diary where he says that he had a black servant that traveled with him. Was this man a paid servant or a slave? He had his share of prejudice which also existed in the north. At least he did his share and died from wounds that he received after the war.
As God is my judge, I am not a racist. It is really time to recognize that we are all equal and should be treated as such. I have seen racial relations improve in my seventy plus years, but we have a way to go.

Just watched a show on U.S. Grant’s life. To his credit he electively freed his slave,something rarely done at that time. Not that what he did before was right. Thank God for president Lincoln and the hundreds of thousands willing to fight and die to end slavery. It gives me creeps to even say the word.

 

[HailtoPitt]

I wonder if there are any Nazi statues in Germany. Any of Edwin Rommel the great general? You know, das heritage n at.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

I wonder if there are any Nazi statues in Germany. Any of Edwin Rommel the great general? You know, das heritage n at.

Comparing apples and oranges.

 

[wbrpanther]

My grandson is a cadet at VMI. I don’t know what will happen if they try to deface or tear down Stonewall Jackson’s statue in front of their barracks. Better get ready for a fight. Every cadet has a rifle in his room, unloaded of course, but those bayonets are sharp.
Just saw that the reason for tearing down U S Grant’s bust was that he was a slave owner, yes for one year. And then there is George Washington and it goes on for ever. We can’t change history.
My great, great uncle was a cavalry officer during the Civil War. I have his diary where he says that he had a black servant that traveled with him. Was this man a paid servant or a slave? He had his share of prejudice which also existed in the north. At least he did his share and died from wounds that he received after the war.
As God is my judge, I am not a racist. It is really time to recognize that we are all equal and should be treated as such. I have seen racial relations improve in my seventy plus years, but we have a way to go.

All statues of Confederate officers need to come down. They were erected for the most part in the early 20th century coinciding with the second coming of the KKK and the legacy of the CSA should not be honored.

On the other hand trying to get rid of statues of anyone who had slaves in early America is political correctness on steroids. Washington and Jefferson and Grant were National Heroes regardless if they had slaves or not. Taking things way too far is never a good idea.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

All true statements.

I will never understand why people continue to twist themselves into a pretzel to defend something that is so obviously indefensible?

Look, I am against vigilante justice and I am against protesters deciding which statues get to remain up and which should come down. I believe that should be decided civilly and with great deliberation.

However, that’s because I believe that people need to know why the statues are coming down in the first place. They are coming down because they were a lie to begin with.

People calling for the removal of these monuments to failure are not trying to rewrite history. They are trying to correct a history this has already been rewritten and revised.

Guys like Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson were great warriors. However, they were also ultimately traitors against the United States and their leadership and actions directly led to the deaths of many sons and husbands and fathers who all fought under the American flag. That is not my opinion, that is a historical fact that a lot of people simply will not face.

Nearly all of the statues that were erected in their honor went up decades after their deaths and were done so in a deliberate attempt to rewrite their own history.

Hell, most of the Confederate statues people are fighting over today originally went up in the 1950s and 60s, just as the Supreme Court was desegregating schools and Martin Luther King, Jr. was organizing the civil rights movement. Maybe that was all just a big coincidence, but I don’t believe in coincidences.

I believe that you can track nearly all of the racial division that exists in America in 2020 and draw a straight line back to the 1860s. Further, I believe that our refusal to discuss this issue honestly is nearly as problematic as the slavery itself. Frankly, I hold the same opinion regarding our treatment of Native Americans, but that’s a discussion for another day.

We didn’t even start enforcing the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments for the next 100 years after Lincoln’s death. We continued to break up the black families and denied them the right to vote and the right to an education — for a CENTURY after they were “emancipated!” Now, we deny that there is systemic racism or that they have been in any way disadvantaged.

I am sorry but respectfully, that’s insane. It’s just plain historically ignorant.

If you concede that there was ever slavery in this country and that even after these slaves were legally freed by President Lincoln, they still were denied the right to vote and be educated alongside white children, FOR NEARLY A FULL CENTURY, you are effectively acknowledging that systemic racism is in fact, real.

If you are denying that those things ever happened, you are either poorly educated or you are straight up lying.

However, I don’t get angry with the people who don’t know a history as well as they should or if you don’t even really understand the terms of the disagreement. I get angry at the people who know full well what this is all about but who continue to lie to the people out of self interest.

That is who gets under my skin because those people are not participating in the conversation in good faith. They are intentionally deceiving a lot of people for their own personal gain and I have no respect whatsoever for those folks because what they are doing is morally wrong and it’s terrible for our country.

Full stop.

 

[sonofabit]

Good or bad, history cannot be rewritten. One of the biggest tourist attractions in Central Europe east of Paris, that is, is Auschwitz. It's standing for a reason whether it's pilgrimages to this shrine or just plain old morbid curiosity for history's sake. No apples oranges argument needed. Other better examples surely exist but my point is that history needs to be preserved and of course bear reminders of a different time.

 

[Burgh15]

Good or bad, history cannot be rewritten. One of the biggest tourist attractions in Central Europe east of Paris, that is, is Auschwitz. It's standing for a reason whether it's pilgrimages to this shrine or just plain old morbid curiosity for history's sake. No apples oranges argument needed. Other better examples surely exist but my point is that history needs to be preserved and of course bear reminders of a different time.

Monuments and other such structures at battlefields, where the history took place is one thing, but statues of confederate leaders erected in the 20th century in the middle of southern towns isn't a history lesson.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Washington and Jefferson and Grant were National Heroes regardless if they had slaves or not.

Grant as General was largely responsible for the north winning the Civil War. As President he help get the 15th Amendment passed, the one that guaranteed black men the right to vote. Also as President he cracked down hard on the Klan and others like them.

But he wasn't perfect, so tear down that statue!

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Good or bad, history cannot be rewritten. One of the biggest tourist attractions in Central Europe east of Paris, that is, is Auschwitz. It's standing for a reason whether it's pilgrimages to this shrine or just plain old morbid curiosity for history's sake. No apples oranges argument needed. Other better examples surely exist but my point is that history needs to be preserved and of course bear reminders of a different time.

Right, but they don’t have a statue of Hitler erected just outside of Auschwitz completely misrepresenting his motives and his motivations for having a place like Auschwitz in the first place.

“It’s actually a misconception that concentration camps were created to exterminate the Jewish people. Hitler wasn’t trying to kill all the Jews at all. He was just incredibly proud of his German heritage and he created the space as a sort of campground for Jews so they could grow closer together too.”

Nobody is talking about paving over Gettysburg. We just want to talk about it honestly.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Comparing apples and oranges.

Not really.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I wonder if there are any Nazi statues in Germany. Any of Edwin Rommel the great general? You know, das heritage n at.

Yea, I mean why must we celebrate people who went to war AGAINST the United States of America? I mean do you know how effed up that is? That in and of itself is enough cause for statues to be torn down. Then add in the fact of what they were fighting for. Yea, I know, "states' rights." States' rights to do you know what. So effed up.

 

[HailtoPitt]

Comparing apples and oranges.

Please elaborate.

 

[SouthSidePanther]

Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee were cruel and unapologetic slave owners and traitors to their country. Their statutes stand for nothing more than reminders of the Southern "heritage" of blatant racism and a false Christian White Supremacist culture. If the VMI cadets want to defend THAT, it's nothing short of despicable.

 

[HailtoPitt]

Yea, I mean why must we celebrate people who went to war AGAINST the United States of America? I mean do you know how effed up that is? That in and of itself is enough cause for statues to be torn down. Then add in the fact of what they were fighting for. Yea, I know, "states' rights." States' rights to do you know what. So effed up.

Most of those statues weren't even built until much later, during Jim Crow and civil right time periods. Hmmmm...I wonder why? Must be because of "muh hertige".

 

[Conemaugh]

All true statements.

I will never understand why people continue to twist themselves into a pretzel to defend something that is so obviously indefensible?

Look, I am against vigilante justice and I am against protesters deciding which statues get to remain up and which should come down. I believe that should be decided civilly and with great deliberation.

However, that’s because I believe that people need to know why the statues are coming down in the first place. They are coming down because they were a lie to begin with.

People calling for the removal of these monuments to failure are not trying to rewrite history. They are trying to correct a history this has already been rewritten and revised.

Guys like Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson were great warriors. However, they were also ultimately traitors against the United States and their leadership and actions directly led to the deaths of many sons and husbands and fathers who all fought under the American flag. That is not my opinion, that is a historical fact that a lot of people simply will not face.

Nearly all of the statues that were erected in their honor went up decades after their deaths and were done so in a deliberate attempt to rewrite their own history.

Hell, most of the Confederate statues people are fighting over today originally went up in the 1950s and 60s, just as the Supreme Court was desegregating schools and Martin Luther King, Jr. was organizing the civil rights movement. Maybe that was all just a big coincidence, but I don’t believe in coincidences.

I believe that you can track nearly all of the racial division that exists in America in 2020 and draw a straight line back to the 1860s. Further, I believe that our refusal to discuss this issue honestly is nearly as problematic as the slavery itself. Frankly, I hold the same opinion regarding our treatment of Native Americans, but that’s a discussion for another day.

We didn’t even start enforcing the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments for the next 100 years after Lincoln’s death. We continued to break up the black families and denied them the right to vote and the right to an education — for a CENTURY after they were “emancipated!” Now, we deny that there is systemic racism or that they have been in any way disadvantaged.

I am sorry but respectfully, that’s insane. It’s just plain historically ignorant.

If you concede that there was ever slavery in this country and that even after these slaves were legally freed by President Lincoln, they still were denied the right to vote and be educated alongside white children, FOR NEARLY A FULL CENTURY, you are effectively acknowledging that systemic racism is in fact, real.

If you are denying that those things ever happened, you are either poorly educated or you are straight up lying.

However, I don’t get angry with the people who don’t know a history as well as they should or if you don’t even really understand the terms of the disagreement. I get angry at the people who know full well what this is all about but who continue to lie to the people out of self interest.

That is who gets under my skin because those people are not participating in the conversation in good faith. They are intentionally deceiving a lot of people for their own personal gain and I have no respect whatsoever for those folks because what they are doing is morally wrong and it’s terrible for our country.

Full stop.

Good God man..... not that I disagree with a lot of what you had to say, but your diatribe shows you have absolutley zero... none....nada space available in your mind to have a "conversation" with someone who has even a slightly different point of view. First of all, most confederate statues were not put up in the 50's and 60's. It was not a response to desegregation......copied the below from Wikipedia

"Scholarly studies of the monuments began in the 1980s. In 1983 John J. Winberry published a study which was based on data from the work of R.W. Widener.[33][34] He estimated that the main building period for monuments was from 1889 to 1929 and that of the monuments erected in courthouse squares over half were built between 1902 and 1912."

Secondly, in many case schools in the North were never segregated.... especially the old mining and coal patch towns common throughout Pennsylvania and other rural "boom towns" in the industrial North and Midwest. The schooling provided to both whites and blacks was equally poor in comparison to those in the larger metropolitan areas. Now if you are talking Harvard, Yale, or Princeton, I agree that that African americans were excluded.... just like the rural white population.

Now, that does not in any way make excuses for any of these people treating others poorly.... but it sounds like you expect them to treat others poorly if they disagree with you. And it sounds like they are the subject of your ire.

If you are trying to enlighten those whom you disagree with, don't blow smoke up their ass or talk to them like they are inherently a simpleton. They will see you are disingenuous and the conversation will stop. You are just as much part of the problem as those whom you rail against. It does take two to tango, and when you are dismissive of others it leaves no room for discussion or learning. Not all of us hillbillies fly the confederate flag on top of our pickup trucks. I don't even have a place to park a pickup... on-street pgh parking only for my house.

 

[TFBaum]

I wonder if there are any Nazi statues in Germany. Any of Edwin Rommel the great general? You know, das heritage n at.

You should have picked someone other than Rommel. He tried to kill dear old Adolf. On another note nobody names their kid Adolf anymore.

 

[TFBaum]

All true statements.

I will never understand why people continue to twist themselves into a pretzel to defend something that is so obviously indefensible?

Look, I am against vigilante justice and I am against protesters deciding which statues get to remain up and which should come down. I believe that should be decided civilly and with great deliberation.

However, that’s because I believe that people need to know why the statues are coming down in the first place. They are coming down because they were a lie to begin with.

People calling for the removal of these monuments to failure are not trying to rewrite history. They are trying to correct a history this has already been rewritten and revised.

Guys like Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson were great warriors. However, they were also ultimately traitors against the United States and their leadership and actions directly led to the deaths of many sons and husbands and fathers who all fought under the American flag. That is not my opinion, that is a historical fact that a lot of people simply will not face.

Nearly all of the statues that were erected in their honor went up decades after their deaths and were done so in a deliberate attempt to rewrite their own history.

Hell, most of the Confederate statues people are fighting over today originally went up in the 1950s and 60s, just as the Supreme Court was desegregating schools and Martin Luther King, Jr. was organizing the civil rights movement. Maybe that was all just a big coincidence, but I don’t believe in coincidences.

I believe that you can track nearly all of the racial division that exists in America in 2020 and draw a straight line back to the 1860s. Further, I believe that our refusal to discuss this issue honestly is nearly as problematic as the slavery itself. Frankly, I hold the same opinion regarding our treatment of Native Americans, but that’s a discussion for another day.

We didn’t even start enforcing the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments for the next 100 years after Lincoln’s death. We continued to break up the black families and denied them the right to vote and the right to an education — for a CENTURY after they were “emancipated!” Now, we deny that there is systemic racism or that they have been in any way disadvantaged.

I am sorry but respectfully, that’s insane. It’s just plain historically ignorant.

If you concede that there was ever slavery in this country and that even after these slaves were legally freed by President Lincoln, they still were denied the right to vote and be educated alongside white children, FOR NEARLY A FULL CENTURY, you are effectively acknowledging that systemic racism is in fact, real.

If you are denying that those things ever happened, you are either poorly educated or you are straight up lying.

However, I don’t get angry with the people who don’t know a history as well as they should or if you don’t even really understand the terms of the disagreement. I get angry at the people who know full well what this is all about but who continue to lie to the people out of self interest.

That is who gets under my skin because those people are not participating in the conversation in good faith. They are intentionally deceiving a lot of people for their own personal gain and I have no respect whatsoever for those folks because what they are doing is morally wrong and it’s terrible for our country.

Full stop.

Lee was not a warrior he was a selfish loser who caused the deaths of thousands. He lost half his army at Gettysburg. He knew he couldn’t win. The war in the west was going the way of the North the blockades were working. And what did old Bobby Lee do? Fought a defensive war to kill as many Americans until he ran out of men and supplies.

 

[TFBaum]

Good God man..... not that I disagree with a lot of what you had to say, but your diatribe shows you have absolutley zero... none....nada space available in your mind to have a "conversation" with someone who has even a slightly different point of view. First of all, most confederate statues were not put up in the 50's and 60's. It was not a response to desegregation......copied the below from Wikipedia

"Scholarly studies of the monuments began in the 1980s. In 1983 John J. Winberry published a study which was based on data from the work of R.W. Widener.[33][34] He estimated that the main building period for monuments was from 1889 to 1929 and that of the monuments erected in courthouse squares over half were built between 1902 and 1912."

Secondly, in many case schools in the North were never segregated.... especially the old mining and coal patch towns common throughout Pennsylvania and other rural "boom towns" in the industrial North and Midwest. The schooling provided to both whites and blacks was equally poor in comparison to those in the larger metropolitan areas. Now if you are talking Harvard, Yale, or Princeton, I agree that that African americans were excluded.... just like the rural white population.

Now, that does not in any way make excuses for any of these people treating others poorly.... but it sounds like you expect them to treat others poorly if they disagree with you. And it sounds like they are the subject of your ire.

If you are trying to enlighten those whom you disagree with, don't blow smoke up their ass or talk to them like they are inherently a simpleton. They will see you are disingenuous and the conversation will stop. You are just as much part of the problem as those whom you rail against. It does take two to tango, and when you are dismissive of others it leaves no room for discussion or learning. Not all of us hillbillies fly the confederate flag on top of our pickup trucks. I don't even have a place to park a pickup... on-street pgh parking only for my house.

Thank you for correcting when those statues were put up.

 

[Jeffburgh]

Grant as General was largely responsible for the north winning the Civil War. As President he help get the 15th Amendment passed, the one that guaranteed black men the right to vote. Also as President he cracked down hard on the Klan and others like them.

But he wasn't perfect, so tear down that statue!

Yes Grant statues are obviously ok. Statues of those who led our treasonous civil over the right to continue owning slaves are ridiculous.

 

[HopeandChangeforAntoons]

The statues were erected to commemorate what they did on the battlefield. Yes, they had flaws and some of what they did is considered reprehensible today. But we can’t whitewash history and forget about all the other stuff they did because some people get offended.

 

[CougarClaws]

Monuments and other such structures at battlefields, where the history took place is one thing, but statues of confederate leaders erected in the 20th century in the middle of southern towns isn't a history lesson.

It's racism plain & simple.

 

[CougarClaws]

Lee was not a warrior he was a selfish loser who caused the deaths of thousands. He lost half his army at Gettysburg. He knew he couldn’t win. The war in the west was going the way of the North the blockades were working. And what did old Bobby Lee do? Fought a defensive war to kill as many Americans until he ran out of men and supplies.

A brilliant commander, and an awful human.

 

[Las Panteras]

Can someone tell me, is there a statue of Robert E Lee at West Point?

I am aware of other statues on the campus grounds. I am not sure if there is one of Lee?

 

[Chem95]

To echo what some have said. Stonewall Jackson's tactics during the Civil War...at times when he was outnumbered but still managed to embarrass/defeat the enemy are still studied/taught by military academies around the world. His statue at VMI makes sense. Lee's statue at Gettysburg makes sense. Lee's statue in Florida's state house doesn't. It is entirely APPROPRIATE to ask why it's there. He wasn't from there, he didn't fight there, he didn't teach there. It isn't 'whitewashing' history to remove it. Because it shouldn't be there.

With that being said, if they removed it (from VMI), would it really be THAT big of a deal? Erwin Rommel's tactics are taught/studied at VMI as well. There is no statue of him. I bet that there isn't one of him at an academy in Germany either.

 

[CougarClaws]

Good God man..... not that I disagree with a lot of what you had to say, but your diatribe shows you have absolutley zero... none....nada space available in your mind to have a "conversation" with someone who has even a slightly different point of view. First of all, most confederate statues were not put up in the 50's and 60's. It was not a response to desegregation......copied the below from Wikipedia

"Scholarly studies of the monuments began in the 1980s. In 1983 John J. Winberry published a study which was based on data from the work of R.W. Widener.[33][34] He estimated that the main building period for monuments was from 1889 to 1929 and that of the monuments erected in courthouse squares over half were built between 1902 and 1912."

Secondly, in many case schools in the North were never segregated.... especially the old mining and coal patch towns common throughout Pennsylvania and other rural "boom towns" in the industrial North and Midwest. The schooling provided to both whites and blacks was equally poor in comparison to those in the larger metropolitan areas. Now if you are talking Harvard, Yale, or Princeton, I agree that that African americans were excluded.... just like the rural white population.

Now, that does not in any way make excuses for any of these people treating others poorly.... but it sounds like you expect them to treat others poorly if they disagree with you. And it sounds like they are the subject of your ire.

If you are trying to enlighten those whom you disagree with, don't blow smoke up their ass or talk to them like they are inherently a simpleton. They will see you are disingenuous and the conversation will stop. You are just as much part of the problem as those whom you rail against. It does take two to tango, and when you are dismissive of others it leaves no room for discussion or learning. Not all of us hillbillies fly the confederate flag on top of our pickup trucks. I don't even have a place to park a pickup... on-street pgh parking only for my house.

Of course his name is Conemaugh. Having lived on the shores of that river, I am ashamed to admit, the majority round there are blatant racists. Loved the countryside, but the the racist drug addicted whites always made me uncomfortable. And stole my stuff too.

 

[Jeffburgh]

To echo what some have said. Stonewall Jackson's tactics during the Civil War...at times when he was outnumbered but still managed to embarrass/defeat the enemy are still studied/taught by military academies around the world. His statue at VMI makes sense. Lee's statue at Gettysburg makes sense. Lee's statue in Florida's state house doesn't. It is entirely APPROPRIATE to ask why it's there. He wasn't from there, he didn't fight there, he didn't teach there. It isn't 'whitewashing' history to remove it. Because it shouldn't be there.

With that being said, if they removed it (from VMI), would it really be THAT big of a deal? Erwin Rommel's tactics are taught/studied at VMI as well. There is no statue of him. I bet that there isn't one of him at an academy in Germany either.

Good post!

 

[TFBaum]

Can someone tell me, is there a statue of Robert E Lee at West Point?

I am aware of other statues on the campus grounds. I am not sure if there is one of Lee?

There is Lee Barracks and Lee road. The big four at the point are Grant, Eisenhower, MacArthur and Lee. Of those four who doesn’t fit? I post a video under Please Watch a former cadet gave a brilliant explanation.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

My grandson is a cadet at VMI. I don’t know what will happen if they try to deface or tear down Stonewall Jackson’s statue in front of their barracks. Better get ready for a fight. Every cadet has a rifle in his room, unloaded of course, but those bayonets are sharp.
Just saw that the reason for tearing down U S Grant’s bust was that he was a slave owner, yes for one year. And then there is George Washington and it goes on for ever. We can’t change history.
My great, great uncle was a cavalry officer during the Civil War. I have his diary where he says that he had a black servant that traveled with him. Was this man a paid servant or a slave? He had his share of prejudice which also existed in the north. At least he did his share and died from wounds that he received after the war.
As God is my judge, I am not a racist. It is really time to recognize that we are all equal and should be treated as such. I have seen racial relations improve in my seventy plus years, but we have a way to go.

Want to demonstrate something ?
Support taking down all these symbols of white superiority

 

[BVGPitt]

I lived in Richmond Virginia for 7 years (moved from New York -- big culture shock)...the Elementary School was Washington-Henry, Middle was Stone Wall Jackson, and the High School was Lee-Davis. Many of my teachers believed the south would rise again! How do you change so many names and statutes, streets, etc. in one state is beyond me.

 

[benchwarmer04]

....save your dixie cups,boys.............

 

[drp1tt]

All true statements.

I will never understand why people continue to twist themselves into a pretzel to defend something that is so obviously indefensible?

Look, I am against vigilante justice and I am against protesters deciding which statues get to remain up and which should come down. I believe that should be decided civilly and with great deliberation.

However, that’s because I believe that people need to know why the statues are coming down in the first place. They are coming down because they were a lie to begin with.

People calling for the removal of these monuments to failure are not trying to rewrite history. They are trying to correct a history this has already been rewritten and revised.

Guys like Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson were great warriors. However, they were also ultimately traitors against the United States and their leadership and actions directly led to the deaths of many sons and husbands and fathers who all fought under the American flag. That is not my opinion, that is a historical fact that a lot of people simply will not face.

Nearly all of the statues that were erected in their honor went up decades after their deaths and were done so in a deliberate attempt to rewrite their own history.

Hell, most of the Confederate statues people are fighting over today originally went up in the 1950s and 60s, just as the Supreme Court was desegregating schools and Martin Luther King, Jr. was organizing the civil rights movement. Maybe that was all just a big coincidence, but I don’t believe in coincidences.

I believe that you can track nearly all of the racial division that exists in America in 2020 and draw a straight line back to the 1860s. Further, I believe that our refusal to discuss this issue honestly is nearly as problematic as the slavery itself. Frankly, I hold the same opinion regarding our treatment of Native Americans, but that’s a discussion for another day.

We didn’t even start enforcing the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments for the next 100 years after Lincoln’s death. We continued to break up the black families and denied them the right to vote and the right to an education — for a CENTURY after they were “emancipated!” Now, we deny that there is systemic racism or that they have been in any way disadvantaged.

I am sorry but respectfully, that’s insane. It’s just plain historically ignorant.

If you concede that there was ever slavery in this country and that even after these slaves were legally freed by President Lincoln, they still were denied the right to vote and be educated alongside white children, FOR NEARLY A FULL CENTURY, you are effectively acknowledging that systemic racism is in fact, real.

If you are denying that those things ever happened, you are either poorly educated or you are straight up lying.

However, I don’t get angry with the people who don’t know a history as well as they should or if you don’t even really understand the terms of the disagreement. I get angry at the people who know full well what this is all about but who continue to lie to the people out of self interest.

That is who gets under my skin because those people are not participating in the conversation in good faith. They are intentionally deceiving a lot of people for their own personal gain and I have no respect whatsoever for those folks because what they are doing is morally wrong and it’s terrible for our country.

Full stop.

This part of your statement says it all.

“Further, I believe that our refusal to discuss this issue honestly is nearly as problematic as the slavery itself.”

This simple sentence is why we still have these issues. By overly apologizing and acting sympathetic just sweeps it under the rug to come up at another time. We should be having open discussions so everybody can express their opinions and truly being felt that they are being heard.

It is no different than having a discussion that becomes one-sided and in your heart you feel that the other person is just refusing to listen. What do you do? You suck it up, walk away and in the back of your mind convince yourself that your position is even more right and it simmers until it comes up again.

Instead of playing the blame game, rioting, burning down statues, etc., we should be having open discussions and try to bring, as hard as it is, harmony and solutions so that everybody feels they are equally being heard. Pointing fingers is easy. Working on solutions is much harder.

 

[pittdan77]

There’s not much to add here but it would be refreshing if some of the leadership cadre at VMI asked to have the statue removed to show respect to their fellow cadets of color.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Lee was not a warrior he was a selfish loser who caused the deaths of thousands. He lost half his army at Gettysburg. He knew he couldn’t win. The war in the west was going the way of the North the blockades were working. And what did old Bobby Lee do? Fought a defensive war to kill as many Americans until he ran out of men and supplies.

Huh? His military tactics and strategy have been studied and utilized for the last 125 years.

 

[bwh05]

I lived in Richmond Virginia for 7 years (moved from New York -- big culture shock)...the Elementary School was Washington-Henry, Middle was Stone Wall Jackson, and the High School was Lee-Davis. Many of my teachers believed the south would rise again! How do you change so many names and statutes, streets, etc. in one state is beyond me.

the south will rise again people tend to be the ones who give lectures about how others are being “unpatriotic” or “unAmerican” too. The entire point of the confederacy was to become “unAmerican”

 

[TFBaum]

A brilliant commander, and an awful human.

A defensive commander. He never won an offensive battle but I could be wrong. Maybe 1

Huh? His military tactics and strategy have been studied and utilized for the last 125 years.

I don’t disagree he invented trench warfare. My point is he never won an offensive campaign.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Yes Grant statues are obviously ok.

Not to the protesters in San Francisco.

 

[Jeffburgh]

Not to the protesters in San Francisco.

Who cares?