OT: Where Does Ben Rank?...

[TheSpecialSauce]

Where does Ben rank on the list of all-time NFL QB’s?

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

People have quickly forgotten how good Rod Woodson was. He may have been the best Steeler ever and was absolutely dominant until blowing out his knee.

I think Ben has been great over time, it is hard to argue that. But, the Steelers have had a lot of straight up legends. Guys who were the best or transcendent at their position. Roethlisberger played/plays in a golden age of QBs, but was never quite that even at his most dominant.

Joe Greene, Dermonti Dawson, Mel Blount, Rod Woodson, Troy Polamalu, Mike Webster ... all guys that may have been the best ever at what they did on their best day/season.

Steelers fans may hate AB, but he had the most dominant run a receiver has maybe ever had in his last 4-5 years as a Steeler. Huge talent that also was a better player than Ben relative to his competition though they needed each other.

Then, you have guys like Ham, Lambert, Harrison, Harris, Bettis, Bradshaw, Stallworth, Swann, Lloyd, Greene (people forget that when he played for the Steelers, Lloyd was better than him), etc ... players that were absolute monsters, HoF in reality and/or level at their best. I think Ben falls a little more in with this crew relative to the competition.

The guy has been a stud, but the Steelers have had a lot of studs. The position means a ton more than anything else, but player vs player at respective position they have had probably 10+ guys that were more All-Time than Ben (who has had a marvelous career and will be in the HoF).

Had Woodson moved to safety like the Steelers wanted him to he may have continued his domination and played here his whole career. His ego made him play CB for a cpl more years when he lost a little. When he finally went to S he was once again a pro bowler.

 

[TheChair]

Where does Ben rank on the list of all-time NFL QB’s?

Well, who was clearly better? I think the following guys: Montana, Manning, Brady, Unitas, Marino, Brees, Young, Favre and Elway. I would add Rodgers too. Mahomes as well though he is so early on. Any arguments or additions?

Then, you have the guys that clearly are or an argument can be made that they are the same level: Staubach, Namath, Kelly, Rivers, Tarkenton, Fouts, Moon, Bradshaw, Starr, Aikman. Maybe a young guy like Wilson as well. How about Stabler too?

I think it is clear Ben is somewhere in the top 15 of that group. His biggest issue in terms of all-time status is that he played at the same time or had some overlap with around 10-15 of the names listed. And, a lot of them were better than him.

 

[303vND]

Depends on your criteria.

If it’s a player who is directly responsible for the most wins in team history, it’s not particularly close. He is #1.

It’s the better part of two decades of contending football. Ben has played in maybe 2 games that didn’t have “playoff implications”

Let that sink in a moment before talking Super Bowls.

The 70s teams had the best collection of talent ever. But there wasn’t one player as responsible, and it was basically an 8 year stretch and it was over. Players like TB were actually somewhat poor at times in the first few years.

Time will eventually provide perspective on this. It really isn’t close

Terry came to a team that was perennial losers - Ben came to an established team with a great defense. There is a difference. And that Steeler team won four Super Bowls in those eight years...this Steeler team hasn’t won jack in over a decade.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Terry came to a team that was perennial losers - Ben came to an established team with a great defense. There is a difference. And that Steeler team won four Super Bowls in those eight years...this Steeler team hasn’t won jack in over a decade.

No. But there was also no salary cap then, the Steelers just drafted from 1969-1974 just unbelievably. I think outside of 1973 draft, they drafted at least 1 HOFer in each draft and in 1974 they ended up with 4 in one draft! That is just remarkable.

 

[4Mark_Marty]

Joe Greene is #1 and then there’s everyone else. When he arrived in ‘70, this franchise was a dumpster fire.

That being said, Ben is in the top 3-4. Personally, I’d have him at 2. Longevity, 3 Super Bowls, playing most important position, etc.

Terry Bradshaw is wayyyy up there too.

I’ll go: 1. Joe Greene
2. Ben
3. Terry Bradshaw
and 4-5 could come from Stautner, Lambert, Franco, Blount, Troy, Deebo, and AB.

Screw Franco

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Well, who was clearly better? I think the following guys: Montana, Manning, Brady, Unitas, Marino, Brees, Young, Favre and Elway. I would add Rodgers too. Mahomes as well though he is so early on. Any arguments or additions?

Then, you have the guys that clearly are or an argument can be made that they are the same level: Staubach, Namath, Kelly, Rivers, Tarkenton, Fouts, Moon, Bradshaw, Starr, Aikman. Maybe a young guy like Wilson as well. How about Stabler too?

I think it is clear Ben is somewhere in the top 15 of that group. His biggest issue in terms of all-time status is that he played at the same time or had some overlap with around 10-15 of the names listed. And, a lot of them were better than him.

There were 20 finalist for quarterback on the 100th anniversary team and Roethlisberger was not one of them.

 

[PittPanther44]

Terry came to a team that was perennial losers - Ben came to an established team with a great defense. There is a difference. And that Steeler team won four Super Bowls in those eight years...this Steeler team hasn’t won jack in over a decade.

Having the second best record in the league is hardly “not winning Jack”

Sure, the playoffs were underachieving and goofy at times. Injuries killed them and the defense was downright bad at times. Shazier injury changed the dynamic of the defense, and the Lev/AB situations hurt the offense.

But Bradshaw was not even locked in as the starter as late as 1975. That’s when he emerged, but he also had the best defense ever. He was basically done by 1981. That’s how short his period as a consistent starter was (basically like 2015 to now)

Id never say TB wasn’t one of the most important figures in team history. He was huge in big games and had a historically good skill set.

But you also had to do a lot less as a QB back then and was on an elite team. Sure the rules changed, but he only had like 4 or 5 300 yard games. Ever.

Terry wouldn’t have been able to turn the roster over 3 times and continued being a contender for 18 years. Ben did.

 

[303vND]

Having the second best record in the league is hardly “not winning Jack”

Sure, the playoffs were underachieving and goofy at times. Injuries killed them and the defense was downright bad at times. Shazier injury changed the dynamic of the defense, and the Lev/AB situations hurt the offense.

But Bradshaw was not even locked in as the starter as late as 1975. That’s when he emerged, but he also had the best defense ever. He was basically done by 1981. That’s how short his period as a consistent starter was (basically like 2015 to now)

Id never say TB wasn’t one of the most important figures in team history. He was huge in big games and had a historically good skill set.

But you also had to do a lot less as a QB back then and was on an elite team. Sure the rules changed, but he only had like 4 or 5 300 yard games. Ever.

Terry wouldn’t have been able to turn the roster over 3 times and continued being a contender for 18 years. Ben did.

Contender? Three playoff wins in 10 years hardly warrants contender status. And when the rules changed to favor offenses, Terry won MVP. And I don’t get the turning over the roster statement - Ben hasn’t won anything since our top five defense went away.

 

[4Mark_Marty]

Having the second best record in the league is hardly “not winning Jack”

Sure, the playoffs were underachieving and goofy at times. Injuries killed them and the defense was downright bad at times. Shazier injury changed the dynamic of the defense, and the Lev/AB situations hurt the offense.

But Bradshaw was not even locked in as the starter as late as 1975. That’s when he emerged, but he also had the best defense ever. He was basically done by 1981. That’s how short his period as a consistent starter was (basically like 2015 to now)

Id never say TB wasn’t one of the most important figures in team history. He was huge in big games and had a historically good skill set.

But you also had to do a lot less as a QB back then and was on an elite team. Sure the rules changed, but he only had like 4 or 5 300 yard games. Ever.

Terry wouldn’t have been able to turn the roster over 3 times and continued being a contender for 18 years. Ben did.

Terry called his own plays.

 

[CJsE]

Well, who was clearly better? I think the following guys: Montana, Manning, Brady, Unitas, Marino, Brees, Young, Favre and Elway. I would add Rodgers too. Mahomes as well though he is so early on. Any arguments or additions?

Then, you have the guys that clearly are or an argument can be made that they are the same level: Staubach, Namath, Kelly, Rivers, Tarkenton, Fouts, Moon, Bradshaw, Starr, Aikman. Maybe a young guy like Wilson as well. How about Stabler too?

I think it is clear Ben is somewhere in the top 15 of that group. His biggest issue in terms of all-time status is that he played at the same time or had some overlap with around 10-15 of the names listed. And, a lot of them were better than him.

All of your top 9 are definitely above Ben. Then you have Otto Graham that was All-Pro 7 times. So the top 10 is pretty much set.

The 15 QBs after that everyone is going to have argument about order. I'd definitely put Ben toward the front of those next 15 though. Certainly above Rivers, Fouts, Moon, Namath, Eli, and Wilson.

I'd say Eli should be in the group of 11-25 because his numbers are pretty damn good and had 2 of the best post-season runs in history, beating the GOAT both times. I mean look at his stats in those 8 games.

178-282 - 2,073 yds - 15TDs - 2 INTs - 4 4th Quarter Comebacks - 5 Game Winning Drives - 2 Super Bowl MVPs

 

[nosellout]

Ben is definitely an all time great and I would find a spot in the top 10 for him, but no all time list should have Ben or any Steeler not named Greene, Blount or Woodson ahead of Jack Ham. Ham impacted games like modern Steelers Polamalu and Shazier. Ham was equally great in pass coverage and run support.

 

[Pitt79]

Remember when Ben got carried by his defense and running game when he threw for under 100 yards to win his first Super Bowl.

Remember when he got carried through the playoffs to win his 2nd Super Bowl by throwing only 1 TD against 5 ints in 2 playoff games.

Remember his 3 turnovers in his 3rd Super Bowl.

Remember his 3 interceptions in his 4th Super Bowl.

They never make the first Super Bowl if he's not on the roster
He personally wins his second Super Bowl with the greatest game winning drive in Super Bowl history
Losing one of three Super Bowls means you got there three times, How many QBs got there 3 times?
Never played in a 4th SB
The truth is, the Steelers last Super Bowl appearance is 1996, Super Bowl XXX, if they never draft Ben

 

[Pitt79]

Nah, most who have meet the dude shares a similar opinion of him. I have heard much worse from others. It's not like I said, I'm looking forward to his CTE to take him out like many others have.

I'd rather have an A-Hole who takes me to a few Super Bowls, rather than a nice guy who sucks, but helps the community, He's just a character in my TV show, I don't give a crap if he's a good person, I don't want to meet him, I don't collect autographs, I don't want to have a few beers with his fat asss UNLESS HE'S BUYING. I don't even care if he dies from CTE dementia, because he's not really that good anymore, and he won't help my TV show be good, so I'm good with discarding him now that he's spent.

 

[Pitt79]

Terry came to a team that was perennial losers - Ben came to an established team with a great defense. There is a difference. And that Steeler team won four Super Bowls in those eight years...this Steeler team hasn’t won jack in over a decade.

Terry was on a team where he had a dozen hall of famers, not allowed to leave in free agency for a dozen years,

 

[Pitt79]

Screw Franco

Franco was a great RB for my team, I love Franco, as far as I'm concerned he can suck JoePa off all he wants, and I still like him. Met him at a tailgate party he's a nice guy.

 

[Pitt79]

Terry called his own plays.

Nobody's been allowed to do that for 30 years, and it's been argued that Ben does too pretty often.

Personally, if it was up to me, I'd take the radios out of the helmets and make the playclock 25 seconds to make it impossible or near impossible for coaches to call the plays.

 

[joeydavid]

I'd rather have an A-Hole who takes me to a few Super Bowls, rather than a nice guy who sucks, but helps the community, He's just a character in my TV show, I don't give a crap if he's a good person, I don't want to meet him, I don't collect autographs, I don't want to have a few beers with his fat asss UNLESS HE'S BUYING. I don't even care if he dies from CTE dementia, because he's not really that good anymore, and he won't help my TV show be good, so I'm good with discarding him now that he's spent.

Solid rant here. 👍

 

[Pitt79]

Contender? Three playoff wins in 10 years hardly warrants contender status. And when the rules changed to favor offenses, Terry won MVP. And I don’t get the turning over the roster statement - Ben hasn’t won anything since our top five defense went away.

Terry would of never won crap without having the #1 all time greatest hall of fame NFL defenses every season of his entire career.

 

[Pitt79]

Solid rant here. 👍

Thanks, meant every word of it, it really encapsulates WHO I AM.

 

[Pitt79]

...he only had like 4 or 5 300 yard games. Ever.

Terry wouldn’t have been able to turn the roster over 3 times and continued being a contender for 18 years. Ben did.

Believe it or not, Terry's very first 300 yard passing game was while winning their 3rd Super Bowl vs, Dallas ind Super Bowl XIII.

And no, if he didn't have a defense with half a dozen hall of famers that never broke up for a decade he doesn't have 4 rings.

 

[happjack]

Terry was on a team where he had a dozen hall of famers, not allowed to leave in free agency for a dozen years,

But Bradshaw started with a Steelers team that was at rock bottom and Ben started with a Super Bowl contending team. Also, Bradshaw's first seven seasons were at a time when receivers got mugged down field along pass blocking rules that put the O-line at a disadvantage, Bradshaw would have put up Peyton Manning type numbers with today's rules.

 

[Pitt79]

But Bradshaw started with a Steelers team that was at rock bottom and Ben started with a Super Bowl contending team. Also, Bradshaw's first seven seasons were at a time when receivers got mugged down field along pass blocking rules that put the O-line at a disadvantage, Bradshaw would have put up Peyton Manning type numbers with today's rules.

None of that makes Bradshaw's accomplishments better, the fact remains, once the SUPER HALL OF FAME ROSTER was in place by 1974, no QB in history ever had a more star studded supporting cast

 

[joeydavid]

Thanks, meant every word of it, it really encapsulates WHO I AM.

I just change the channel. 😆

 

[CJsE]

They never make the first Super Bowl if he's not on the roster
He personally wins his second Super Bowl with the greatest game winning drive in Super Bowl history
Losing one of three Super Bowls means you got there three times, How many QBs got there 3 times?
Never played in a 4th SB
The truth is, the Steelers last Super Bowl appearance is 1996, Super Bowl XXX, if they never draft Ben

That was the joke...Those were all Terry Bradshaw.

 

[303vND]

Terry was on a team where he had a dozen hall of famers, not allowed to leave in free agency for a dozen years,

See....I view free agency differently because yes, players didn't move as often but all those teams kept their core players as well. The Raiders, Cowboys, 49ers and Houston didn't lose players and they all grew together. So when you had to face the likes of Campbell, Bethea, Sistrunk, Upshaw, Branch, et al every single season ...those teams didn't decline because of player defections...they got stronger.

Lastly, Bradshaw won Super Bowls with some of his best players on the sideline and a de facto home game for the Rams. Ben struggled losing Manny Sanders in the Super Bowl in Dallas.

 

[happjack]

None of that makes Bradshaw's accomplishments better, the fact remains, once the SUPER HALL OF FAME ROSTER was in place by 1974, no QB in history ever had a more star studded supporting cast

Swann and Stallworth weren't even starters in 1974, Bradshaw had to throw to the likes of Frank Lewis, Ron Shanklin and Larry Brown, Webster was splitting time with Ray Mansfield. Sure the D was one of the best ever but the O was still a season away from having legit threats at WR and then you had DB's trying to flat out murder Swann from 75 onward.

 

[FanofDan]

#1 @ #2 are clearly Joe Green and Ernie Stautner. After that it gets tough. I'd still have to put Lambert, Harris and Blount ahead of Ben because they were all the best at their position for multiple seasons while winning championships.

Ben may have been the best QB in the NFL for a season or 2 but not while winning anything and he never seemed like a solid leader like Troy, Woodson and Bradshaw were.

That's a tough top 10 to break into.

Blount definitely was the best corner of his time. Was Franco better than OJ or Walter Payton? Lambert was the 2nd or 3rd best MLB of the 70's. Jack Ham was widely regarded as the best OLB of his era. Is Ben top 5 of his era?

 

[Pitt79]

Swann and Stallworth weren't even starters in 1974, Bradshaw had to throw to the likes of Frank Lewis, Ron Shanklin and Larry Brown, Webster was splitting time with Ray Mansfield. Sure the D was one of the best ever but the O was still a season away from having legit threats at WR and then you had DB's trying to flat out murder Swann from 75 onward.

That didn't matter, throwing was an afterthought to that team, Terry was basically a handoff monkey that year, go look at his stats for 1974, he only started half the games, lost his job.

 

[Pitt79]

Blount definitely was the best corner of his time. Was Franco better than OJ or Walter Payton? Lambert was the 2nd or 3rd best MLB of the 70's. Jack Ham was widely regarded as the best OLB of his era. Is Ben top 5 of his era?

He doesn't have to be because the equation is this simple, don't draft Ben in 2003, still stuck on 4 Super Bowl wins, PERIOD.

 

[303vND]

Terry would of never won crap without having the #1 all time greatest hall of fame NFL defenses every season of his entire career.

Um...clearly you didn't see those last two Super Bowls where the offense carried the Steelers!

 

[happjack]

He doesn't have to be because the equation is this simple, don't draft Ben in 2003, still stuck on 4 Super Bowl wins, PERIOD.

But if say the Chargers or Giants take Ben and either Eli or Rivers fall to the Steelers, you don't think either of them would have won 2 Super Bowls with the teams Ben had? Or the Steelers pass on Ben and end up in a position to draft Aaron Rodgers the next year, you don't think he's winning 2 rings with the same teams Ben had.

 

[Rupart33]

He doesn't have to be because the equation is this simple, don't draft Ben in 2003, still stuck on 4 Super Bowl wins, PERIOD.

Rumor has it the Steelers really wanted Phil Rivers in that draft. If he would have been the pick, how many Super Bowls do the Steelers win during his career?

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

But if say the Chargers or Giants take Ben and either Eli or Rivers fall to the Steelers, you don't think either of them would have won 2 Super Bowls with the teams Ben had? Or the Steelers pass on Ben and end up in a position to draft Aaron Rodgers the next year, you don't think he's winning 2 rings with the same teams Ben had.

Give me Ben over Eli Manning or Rivers any day of the week. Ben was a better fit for our offense, which was a lot more improv than it was a well-oiled machine.

 

[CJsE]

Swann and Stallworth weren't even starters in 1974, Bradshaw had to throw to the likes of Frank Lewis, Ron Shanklin and Larry Brown, Webster was splitting time with Ray Mansfield. Sure the D was one of the best ever but the O was still a season away from having legit threats at WR and then you had DB's trying to flat out murder Swann from 75 onward.

So you're using his 1974 season as proof that he could overcome his WR talent. Have you looked at what he did in 1974?

45% completion (24th in NFL)
98 Yards per Game (28th in NFL)
5.3 Yards per Attempt (25th in NFL)
55.2 Passer Rating (25th in NFL)
7 TDs / 8 INTs
0 Game Winning Drives
0 4th Quarter Comebacks
Didn't throw for 150 yards once in the regular season
96 passing yards and 1 TD in Super Bowl

Let's compare that to Ben's first Super Bowl when everyone said he was a game manager that only won games because of his defense and running game.

62.7% completion (9th in NFL)
198.8 YPG (21st in NFL)
8.9 YPA (1st in NFL)
98.6 Passer Rating (3rd in NFL)
17 TDs / 9 INTs
2 4th Quarter Combacks
2 Game Winning Drives
123 passing yards and 2 INTs in Super Bowl

 

[pittdan77]

Had Woodson moved to safety like the Steelers wanted him to he may have continued his domination and played here his whole career. His ego made him play CB for a cpl more years when he lost a little. When he finally went to S he was once again a pro bowler.

CB was paying a lot more, too. I agree that he should have considered the move but he was still in demand as a CB.

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

CB was paying a lot more, too. I agree that he should have considered the move but he was still in demand as a CB.

True. He did play CB even for the Ravens the first year I believe after the Raider and 49er stints.

Regardless he was some player. According to Wikipedia he was the first player to go to the Pro Bowl as a CB, Safety and Kick returner. Don’t know if anyone else ever did it but that’s pretty remarkable.

 

[pittdan77]

True. He did play CB even for the Ravens the first year I believe after the Raider and 49er stints.

Regardless he was some player. According to Wikipedia he was the first player to go to the Pro Bowl as a CB, Safety and Kick returner. Don’t know if anyone else ever did it but that’s pretty remarkable.

Woodson is kind of ignored because he left but he was absolutely one of the most dominant players at his position while in PGH.

 

[Pitt79]

But if say the Chargers or Giants take Ben and either Eli or Rivers fall to the Steelers, you don't think either of them would have won 2 Super Bowls with the teams Ben had? Or the Steelers pass on Ben and end up in a position to draft Aaron Rodgers the next year, you don't think he's winning 2 rings with the same teams Ben had.

Sure, and I'd use the same argument to say that without drafting <Fill in the blank QB> the Steelers never get One for the Thumb.

Rumor has it the Steelers really wanted Phil Rivers in that draft. If he would have been the pick, how many Super Bowls do the Steelers win during his career?

Who knows? 2? zero? 4? We can't know that? I believe Ben was better than Rivers and Eli.