Paul Ziese (and Pitt79) ... may not like it ...

[DT_PITT]

.... but offense is not ruling the day in the NCAA tournament so far. Scores are in the 50's and 60's. Actually, offense is not ruling much of anything anymore in College Basketball.

Pitt79 ... I'm only messing with you, of course.

And I don't think anyone disagrees with your notion that it doesn't look like "good offense" when one is watching Pitt. I would only assert that Pitt is actually on the better end of what's become a bad lot. #34 good, in fact.

This doesn't bother me in fact, because I like watching good defenses. Although in many cases, it's not "good defense," but "bad offense."

 

[pittzap]

They said GA State went 12 minutes without scoring a basket, which stinks, but they also only gave up 56 points. You can go through droughts (which most teams seem to) if you can stop the other team from scoring, too.

 

[Pitt79]

Originally posted by DT_PITT:
.... but offense is not ruling the day in the NCAA tournament so far. Scores are in the 50's and 60's. Actually, offense is not ruling much of anything anymore in College Basketball.

Pitt79 ... I'm only messing with you, of course.

And I don't think anyone disagrees with your notion that it doesn't look like "good offense" when one is watching Pitt. I would only assert that Pitt is actually on the better end of what's become a bad lot. #34 good, in fact.

This doesn't bother me in fact, because I like watching good defenses. Although in many cases, it's not "good defense," but "bad offense."

Maybe that's good, I've never seen so many articles complaining about the bad offense. Maybe the national stage saturated with bad offense will force some changes. I agree with your point that Pitt's offense isn't good, but is better than most. I wouldn't mind some changes geared to speading up the game, widening the lane, calling more fouls on the D when they happen. It's funny when some here say that a 24 second clock would ruin the game, when every major men's competition in the world other than the NCAA uses it. I love to watch Euroleague, I even have a favorite team. I prefer it to NBA. They have no problem operating with a 24 second clack and everybody can shoot! It's amazing, they bring in backup centers who play 2 minues a game and they knock down 3s and shoot 80% from the line! I guess it's the Euro players benefiting from being drillied in the fundmentals at the club level as kids instead of playing AAU ball.

 

[wbrpanther]

I don't think I have ever seen Pitt not go thru a long scoring slump over the Dixon-Howland era. Even when we were #1 seed type teams we sometimes struggled to score. That's where great defense saves the day for teams. It never takes a day off.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by DT_PITT:
.... but offense is not ruling the day in the NCAA tournament so far. Scores are in the 50's and 60's. Actually, offense is not ruling much of anything anymore in College Basketball.

Pitt79 ... I'm only messing with you, of course.

And I don't think anyone disagrees with your notion that it doesn't look like "good offense" when one is watching Pitt. I would only assert that Pitt is actually on the better end of what's become a bad lot. #34 good, in fact.

This doesn't bother me in fact, because I like watching good defenses. Although in many cases, it's not "good defense," but "bad offense."

DT, sometimes I think we get lost in the offense and defense thing and fail to acknowledge sometimes, many times, especially in a one and done, it is about shot making.

 

[DT_PITT]

DT, sometimes I think we get lost in the offense and defense thing and fail to acknowledge sometimes, many times, especially in a one and done, it is about shot making.

Totally agree recruits ...

Sometimes, it's great to watch a really, really good defensive possession and a player still is able to make a really, really tough shots.

Those are the ones that make you say: "oooo!"

 

[Pitt79]

Originally posted by recruitsreadtheseboards:

Originally posted by DT_PITT:
.... but offense is not ruling the day in the NCAA tournament so far. Scores are in the 50's and 60's. Actually, offense is not ruling much of anything anymore in College Basketball.

Pitt79 ... I'm only messing with you, of course.

And I don't think anyone disagrees with your notion that it doesn't look like "good offense" when one is watching Pitt. I would only assert that Pitt is actually on the better end of what's become a bad lot. #34 good, in fact.

This doesn't bother me in fact, because I like watching good defenses. Although in many cases, it's not "good defense," but "bad offense."

DT, sometimes I think we get lost in the offense and defense thing and fail to acknowledge sometimes, many times, especially in a one and done, it is about shot making.

REALLY? I've never heard anybody say this, Very interesting?

 

[PITTLAW]

Reply

Well the old saying that defense wins championships is out there for a reason. Bad news is, that is Pitt's biggest weakness going into the 2015-16 season. Hail to Pitt!

 

[cruzer]

something I noticed today


is that every team that won today scored at least one more point then their opponent.

Cruzer

 

[KiwiJeff]

Re: something I noticed today

And every team that won held their opponent to fewer pints than themselves.

 

[ameoba defense]

Originally posted by DT_PITT:
.... but offense is not ruling the day in the NCAA tournament so far. Scores are in the 50's and 60's. Actually, offense is not ruling much of anything anymore in College Basketball.

Pitt79 ... I'm only messing with you, of course.

And I don't think anyone disagrees with your notion that it doesn't look like "good offense" when one is watching Pitt. I would only assert that Pitt is actually on the better end of what's become a bad lot. #34 good, in fact.

This doesn't bother me in fact, because I like watching good defenses. Although in many cases, it's not "good defense," but "bad offense."

Scoring is down in every sport except for football, where they've altered the rules to make it difficult to defend.

 

[Pitt79]

Originally posted by ameoba defense:

Originally posted by DT_PITT:
.... but offense is not ruling the day in the NCAA tournament so far. Scores are in the 50's and 60's. Actually, offense is not ruling much of anything anymore in College Basketball.

Pitt79 ... I'm only messing with you, of course.

And I don't think anyone disagrees with your notion that it doesn't look like "good offense" when one is watching Pitt. I would only assert that Pitt is actually on the better end of what's become a bad lot. #34 good, in fact.

This doesn't bother me in fact, because I like watching good defenses. Although in many cases, it's not "good defense," but "bad offense."

Scoring is down in every sport except for football, where they've altered the rules to make it difficult to defend.

Is that a good thing to most of you? Hockey for instance, I think they've destroyed that sport big time, by allowing average slugs to beat down skilled players and not call fouls. It was better I think when Gretzky and Lemiuex where lighting it up. Basketball though is the craziest in terms of scoring, in football and hockey the old days, meaning before the '80s was low scores and defense, basketball is the opposite, before the '80s you had the higher scores, go back to the '60s, UCLA, Maravich... you won't see scoring like that again, unless they do something like football, alter rules. And imagine Maravich's scoring average and the scores in the '50-'70s if they had 3 point shots then? It would have been astronomical. Not that it needs to be that high, but personally, I'd like it if they did speed the game up, even if the scores didn't go up a lot, there is a lot of standing around and not atacking with a 35 shot clock.








This post was edited on 3/20 8:59 AM by Pitt79

 

[Harve74]

Originally posted by ameoba defense:
Scoring is down in every sport except for football, where they've altered the rules to make it difficult to defend.

Which they ALSO did in the NBA and are proposing in the NCAA. In fact, they adopted modified rule interpretation last year in college and after a couple months relaxed the emphasis on any contact because it was turning the games into foul shooting contests.

I can't see how anyone could be upset with the games yesterday, low scoring or not. The NCAA should leave well enough alone and not meddle. They don't really want to turn the games into AAU run and dunk fests.

 

[Pitt79]

One thing for sure, using a 30 or 24 second shot clock would improve the watching of the game, it would take away 10-15 seconds of standing around "not attacking" passing on shots that could be taken, that we get on almost every possession with the 35 second clock, that would be a good thing. 24 seconds would be best, and better for the players, better to prepare them for pro or international play if that's what they aspire to,

 

[ameoba defense]

Originally posted by Pitt79:

One thing for sure, using a 30 or 24 second shot clock would improve the watching of the game, it would take away 10-15 seconds of standing around "not attacking" passing on shots that could be taken, that we get on almost every possession with the 35 second clock, that would be a good thing. 24 seconds would be best, and better for the players, better to prepare them for pro or international play if that's what they aspire to,

That would make the Kentuckys of the world unbeatable. Most schools don't have a bunch of NBA prospects. Pitt would never have had the level of success they've enjoyed over the last 13-14 years with a 24 second clock.

 

[thebadby2]

What I resent about this pointless "offense vs. defense" debate....

is that it presupposes that a team can't be both a high scoring team and a good defensive team. Looking at stats like opponents scoring average and FG percentage does not tell the whole story. Scoring margin is a more telling stat to me.

FWIW, Pitt is 157th in scoring margin. If you look at the top 20, it's a who's who of the best teams in the country.

A team like the old glory days Duke teams scored in the 80s a lot, but played excellent defense. Their opponents scored more points against them than say, UVA's opponents, but that;[s just because the opponent got more possessions, and Duke pushed the pace of the game. Their average scoring margin was huge. When it counted, they could and did clamp down and stifle the opponent.

Take this year's UK team. A lot of people seem to think it's all built on offense. Not true. When they want to stop you in the half court, you're screwed. Meanwhile, at the other end of the floor, they just overwhelm you with their scoring talent.

And that;s why i really think nobody touches them this year--they are all-around excellent, one of the best ever.

This post was edited on 3/20 11:36 AM by thebadby2

 

[Pitt79]

Originally posted by ameoba defense:

Originally posted by Pitt79:

One thing for sure, using a 30 or 24 second shot clock would improve the watching of the game, it would take away 10-15 seconds of standing around "not attacking" passing on shots that could be taken, that we get on almost every possession with the 35 second clock, that would be a good thing. 24 seconds would be best, and better for the players, better to prepare them for pro or international play if that's what they aspire to,

That would make the Kentuckys of the world unbeatable. Most schools don't have a bunch of NBA prospects. Pitt would never have had the level of success they've enjoyed over the last 13-14 years with a 24 second clock.

But that's the real game that's played all over the world! 24 second clock is the norm everywhere but the NCAA. Teams would adjust and besides, Kentucky is already unbeatable. And it would also put pressure on everybody else to DO WHAT IT TAKES to get some NBA prospects types.

 

[KiwiJeff]

If everybody increased their recruiting, Pitt would get no more or no fewer top recruits than we currently do.

I suspect you think you can fill the deep end of your pool without increasing the depth of the shallow end.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by Harve74:

Originally posted by ameoba defense:

Scoring is down in every sport except for football, where they've altered the rules to make it difficult to defend.

Which they ALSO did in the NBA and are proposing in the NCAA. In fact, they adopted modified rule interpretation last year in college and after a couple months relaxed the emphasis on any contact because it was turning the games into foul shooting contests.

I can't see how anyone could be upset with the games yesterday, low scoring or not. The NCAA should leave well enough alone and not meddle. They don't really want to turn the games into AAU run and dunk fests.

No. Yesterday was pretty much.....perfect. But there is a difference. Harve, I am a hockey fan, maybe even more than a basketball fan (though I am not one of those who hates one over the other to promote his favorite) but hockey is really struggling with some of the same issues as basketball. Players are bigger, stronger faster, coaches do more coaching and using analytics, equipment is different, there is much more interference both legal and illegal. Just like basketball.

But those 1-0, 2-1 games that are mostly boring in January are thrilling in the playoffs because they mean something, there is much intensity. Same with basketball. Now in an one and done, there is so much riding on these games, it makes it more intense and compelling. Plus, teams definitely play better defense and play harder now, they are playing for a championship. It is why that has been oft said about our Panthers, that we play (played) the same way in January and February and therefore when March comes along we don't have another gear where most teams do.

I also would like to see more offense and flow, but also don't want to see them morph into those Paul Evans days where we score 90 points and....LOSE. I think a college basketball game in the 70-75 points range is perfect blend of a lot of great offense and execution and good defense.

 

[Pitt79]

Originally posted by KiwiJeff:

If everybody increased their recruiting, Pitt would get no more or no fewer top recruits than we currently do.

I suspect you think you can fill the deep end of your pool without increasing the depth of the shallow end.

You're right, I agree for the most part, although I think Pitt might get more tope players if they where willing to do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING the people that get them now do, but I disagree that the Kentuckys would be any more unbeatable than they are now. Everyone else would adjust and learn ways to win within the 24 second clock. It wouldn't be the end of the world like some of you seem to think.

 

[DT_PITT]

I disagree cruzer ...

... I think that every team that won today gave up at least one fewer point then their opponent.

 

[Pitt79]

Re: I disagree cruzer ...

Originally posted by DT_PITT:
... I think that every team that won today gave up at least one fewer point then their opponent.

Your like the Steeler fan that says a 7-6 win is the same as a 47-46 win. While true, the NFL realizes that a league where 7-6 is the norm potentially is worth less, so they try to amp up the action. The hard core purist, especially those that love defense don't care, but they are the minority. I'm a hard core Steelers fan, going back to 1969, lived and breathed the Steel Curtain, but you know what? Eventually I realized I was sick of Cowher trying to milk the clock starting in the 3rd quarter with a one score lead and was screaming for them to cut Big Ben loose and try to score again and again, just because I realized, they aren't going to win the Super Bowl every year and I just want to watch that happen, just for it's own sake, no matter what the risk.

 

[DT_PITT]

Actually, Pitt79 ... it was just a little joke ...


... although not that funny, I confess.

But it really was not reflective of how I feel at all.

For me, I like good offense, and I like good defense. I like to see any team execute whatever they are and whatever they do well.

I like to watch a good offensive team score lots of points. I like to see a good defensive team stifle an opponent.

However, I don't think offense is the only way to go to be successful, which seems to be the opinion of several on here.

Also, the point I was trying to make to you yesterday was that while our offense is bad in your eyes, I really is one of the better ones.

 

[Pitt79]

Re: Actually, Pitt79 ... it was just a little joke ...

Originally posted by DT_PITT:

... although not that funny, I confess.

But it really was not reflective of how I feel at all.

For me, I like good offense, and I like good defense. I like to see any team execute whatever they are and whatever they do well.

I like to watch a good offensive team score lots of points. I like to see a good defensive team stifle an opponent.

However, I don't think offense is the only way to go to be successful, which seems to be the opinion of several on here.

Also, the point I was trying to make to you yesterday was that while our offense is bad in your eyes, I really is one of the better ones.

I love defensive basketball, I love half court basketball as well, I love watching effective, strong big guys with their back to the basket powering to the hoop down low, drop steps, hook shots, Charles Smith... Lew Alcindor! etc. What I am tired of is other teams lighting Pitt up with 3s and we never have any top tier guys to answer, Also tired of so many missed FTs, tired of nobody who is just pure offense, who you can just give the ball and say "SCORE!" and he can do it being a member of Pitts team! I mean even the level of Krauser or Fields is all I'm talking about there. OK, Pitt is "efficient", all fine and good, it would just be nice to have some of "those skills" and not feel like there's a lid on the basket every game, while the opponent has multiple guys dunking, draining 3s well beyond the arc unconscious, and creating on their own and we don't see any of that from our side.

 

[DT_PITT]

Re: Actually, Pitt79 ... it was just a little joke ...

I can understand how you feel but I think this last statement from you sort of makes my point ...

"OK, Pitt is "efficient", all fine and good, it would just be nice to have some of "those skills" and not feel like there's a lid on the basket every game, while the opponent has multiple guys dunking, draining 3s well beyond the arc unconscious, and creating on their own and we don't see any of that from our side."

You pointed to a number of things that are perception issues. When you see another team hit a three, it "feels" worse. It's more frustrating. But the reality is that your team may actually be doing these things better.

For example, I loved the 2010-2011 team and their #4 in the county offensive efficiency. Obviously, that team must have been doing those things you like pretty well, correct? In years like this, we DID have more offense that our opponents nearly all the time.

And we scored a whole lot of the time this year too. But when people score on you like they did to us this year (#218 in defense), it's going to be hard for any team to have an answer.

 

[Pitt79]

Re: Actually, Pitt79 ... it was just a little joke ...


It might be perception, but I really believe we haven't had a deadly, feared 3 point shooter in many years, and we seem to have had poor FT shooting forever, either that or it's just bad in crunch time. And also, we seriously have not had a shot creator type aggressive G since Fields, Patterson was a go to guy in his way too, we had nobody of tyat ilk this year IMO.