Pirates Salary Dumping while Cubs and Cards continue to build

[PittPoker]

I was fine with letting Alvarez go. He requested a trade and he clearly lost the confidence of management. Although he got at-bats, the fact Hurdle did not start him in the playoff game against Chicago with a right hander on the mound said volumes.

But we have received nothing for Morton or Walker. A single A pitcher for a major league starter says volumes about his worth. We got a pitcher for Walker who was not even in the Mets rotation. Our infield looks frankly pathetic next year until Kang comes back, which will not be until June. Morse, Harrison and Mercer plus whoever else they can get is not a playoff team infield, it's a last place infield. Mercer had a very bad year last year. Harrison is a huge downgrade. He is a bench guy who had one good year and everyone is saying he had a bad year last year. Nope, he performed where he did his whole career. Typical Pittsburgh fandom mistaking hustle for talent. Morse will have to have a career resurrection to even come close to Alvarez's bat. Hanson barely had a .700 OPS in AAA last year and is not ready and even if he breaks out, he will not be here til June at the earliest.

They really need a huge signing to convince me that all of those tickets and buying back into this club was not a scam. MCCutcheon is gone in three years, they need to win now, not in the future. This line up does not look even remotely competitive. Good outfielders and a good catcher is not a world series caliber line up.

Yes I am glad Morton is gone but we are not signing anyone to make this team competitive and believe me, it will show this season trust me.

 

[Drax1975]

Has Spring Training begun yet? Opening Day?

Same things were said last year when Martin and Volquez left....

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

My immediate reaction also was salary dump but he's earned the benefit of the doubt for a little bit. All depends on what they do (or don't do) in the coming days.

 

[Panther_in_Kentucky]

I was fine with letting Alvarez go. He requested a trade and he clearly lost the confidence of management. Although he got at-bats, the fact Hurdle did not start him in the playoff game against Chicago with a right hander on the mound said volumes.

But we have received nothing for Morton or Walker. A single A pitcher for a major league starter says volumes about his worth. We got a pitcher for Walker who was not even in the Mets rotation. Our infield looks frankly pathetic next year until Kang comes back, which will not be until June. Morse, Harrison and Mercer plus whoever else they can get is not a playoff team infield, it's a last place infield. Mercer had a very bad year last year. Harrison is a huge downgrade. He is a bench guy who had one good year and everyone is saying he had a bad year last year. Nope, he performed where he did his whole career. Typical Pittsburgh fandom mistaking hustle for talent. Morse will have to have a career resurrection to even come close to Alvarez's bat. Hanson barely had a .700 OPS in AAA last year and is not ready and even if he breaks out, he will not be here til June at the earliest.

They really need a huge signing to convince me that all of those tickets and buying back into this club was not a scam. MCCutcheon is gone in three years, they need to win now, not in the future. This line up does not look even remotely competitive. Good outfielders and a good catcher is not a world series caliber line up.

Yes I am glad Morton is gone but we are not signing anyone to make this team competitive and believe me, it will show this season trust me.

Seriously. Who Cares? I hope the Pirates elect to move to a new locale. Steelers too.

 

[wbrpanther]

I was fine with letting Alvarez go. He requested a trade and he clearly lost the confidence of management. Although he got at-bats, the fact Hurdle did not start him in the playoff game against Chicago with a right hander on the mound said volumes.

But we have received nothing for Morton or Walker. A single A pitcher for a major league starter says volumes about his worth. We got a pitcher for Walker who was not even in the Mets rotation. Our infield looks frankly pathetic next year until Kang comes back, which will not be until June. Morse, Harrison and Mercer plus whoever else they can get is not a playoff team infield, it's a last place infield. Mercer had a very bad year last year. Harrison is a huge downgrade. He is a bench guy who had one good year and everyone is saying he had a bad year last year. Nope, he performed where he did his whole career. Typical Pittsburgh fandom mistaking hustle for talent. Morse will have to have a career resurrection to even come close to Alvarez's bat. Hanson barely had a .700 OPS in AAA last year and is not ready and even if he breaks out, he will not be here til June at the earliest.

They really need a huge signing to convince me that all of those tickets and buying back into this club was not a scam. MCCutcheon is gone in three years, they need to win now, not in the future. This line up does not look even remotely competitive. Good outfielders and a good catcher is not a world series caliber line up.

Yes I am glad Morton is gone but we are not signing anyone to make this team competitive and believe me, it will show this season trust me.

Do you really have to start this crap every day? We know your take on all this so why rehash it all the time.

 

[maxxwell]

Boy, you really are reactionary, aren't you? It's not surprising what the Cubs are doing. When Epstein got there he immediately began a rebuild. It was to be expected they'd put their considerable financial resources to work when the time was right, which is now. I don't believe the Bucs will keep up with the Cubs, but I'll be surprised if they go into next season with a smaller payroll than last year. Moving Morton and letting Pedro go has opened room to make some moves. So, why don't we see what Huntington does over the remainder of the offseason before you proclaim the Pirates an also ran.

 

[PittPoker]

Do you really have to start this crap every day? We know your take on all this so why rehash it all the time.

Do you really have to be a dick? Yeah I guess you do.

 

[pittisit37]

I have a buddy who works as a pitching coach in the Washington Nationals minor league affiliate. I was asking him about the Pirates farm system and he says we have some real up and comers to be excited about. Maybe the Pirates leadership knows more about this than us and that is the reason for some of the moves.

 

[Delpanther]

Do you really have to start this crap every day? We know your take on all this so why rehash it all the time.

He likes to chit chat with you-you're nice company, even I would attest to that.

 

[Delpanther]

Being reported that Bucs reluctantly breaking up the 98 win powerhouse/baseball colossus and contemplating "several budget conscious moves"-translation: Bucs seeking to sign over the hill bums for bargain basement salaries in the hope one of the bums has a bounce back year. Message to Nutsack-just play the lotto and keep those bobbleheads and kielbasa coming.

 

[TD_istheman]

Take the under in total wins this year. 80 wins

 

[paulbl99]

I was fine with letting Alvarez go. He requested a trade and he clearly lost the confidence of management. Although he got at-bats, the fact Hurdle did not start him in the playoff game against Chicago with a right hander on the mound said volumes.

But we have received nothing for Morton or Walker. A single A pitcher for a major league starter says volumes about his worth. We got a pitcher for Walker who was not even in the Mets rotation. Our infield looks frankly pathetic next year until Kang comes back, which will not be until June. Morse, Harrison and Mercer plus whoever else they can get is not a playoff team infield, it's a last place infield. Mercer had a very bad year last year. Harrison is a huge downgrade. He is a bench guy who had one good year and everyone is saying he had a bad year last year. Nope, he performed where he did his whole career. Typical Pittsburgh fandom mistaking hustle for talent. Morse will have to have a career resurrection to even come close to Alvarez's bat. Hanson barely had a .700 OPS in AAA last year and is not ready and even if he breaks out, he will not be here til June at the earliest.

They really need a huge signing to convince me that all of those tickets and buying back into this club was not a scam. MCCutcheon is gone in three years, they need to win now, not in the future. This line up does not look even remotely competitive. Good outfielders and a good catcher is not a world series caliber line up.

Yes I am glad Morton is gone but we are not signing anyone to make this team competitive and believe me, it will show this season trust me.

Cutch could be gone after this year...he will be owed some decent cha ching( though actually cheap by baseball standards ) his last 2 years... jmo -- won't make it here.


But by dumping Morton --who c a res--- they should have some $erious room to make acquisitions to fill holes.
It will be interesting to see their next moves, because one would think this team is far from being set.

 

[perchance]

If Cutch is gone after this year, the handful of Pirate fans that remain will be burning Nutting in effigy inside PNC park.

 

[PittPoker]

Cutch could be gone after this year...he will be owed some decent cha ching( though actually cheap by baseball standards ) his last 2 years... jmo -- won't make it here.


But by dumping Morton --who c a res--- they should have some $erious room to make acquisitions to fill holes.
It will be interesting to see their next moves, because one would think this team is far from being set.

Glad Morton is gone but not impressed with what they got for him. With record profits, record attendance, tv contract money pouring in and 3 consecutive wild card appearances, Nutting shouldn't be cutting salaries at this point, he should be opening his damn wallet.

 

[TD_istheman]

The Pirate fan boys will say whatever the market value is for Cutch, well that's too much and (insert team) over paid and they are happy NUTBAGS saved a dollar

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

The Pirate fan boys will say whatever the market value is for Cutch, well that's too much and (insert team) over paid and they are happy NUTBAGS saved a dollar

Just like the Nutting haters will say that having Charlie Morton as one of your starters is proof that Nutting doesn't care about winning and trading Charlie Morton is proof that Nutting doesn't care about winning.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

If Cutch is gone after this year, the handful of Pirate fans that remain will be burning Nutting in effigy inside PNC park.

They'll keep him through the end of his contract, he'll likely be worth a Qualifying Offer even at age 32.

I like Cutch a lot but I don't think the Pirates' "window" is tied in with his tenure. If they manage themselves correctly they can be relatively windowless.

The good news is, they should be able to answer some questions this year. Glasnow and Taillon are due up, Bell is due up, they'll likely give some looks to Ngoepe, Hanson, and Diaz. One of their AAA outfielders will probably get some time.

I know fans hate it, but small market teams can't be blocking prospects with expensive 30-year olds. They signed Liriano because they didn't have any internal options on the horizon to be a solid LHP, which is good, but they have options now and need to get answers on them if they hope to be windowless.

This is life as a small market team.

 

[TD_istheman]

Kansas City is small market, correct ?

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Kansas City is small market, correct ?

Yep and, appropriately, built their team from within and with "dumpster dives". Signed Edinson Volquez after an "eh" year, since they figured the defense and ballpark would help (which it did). Signed Morales after a -1.8 WAR season. Signed Rios. Signed Guthrie. Wouldn't spend for Shields. Took on less payroll than the Pirates at the deadline.

They also, IMO, had a bit more of a window with Alex Gordon due to their farm system being a bit depleted.

Edit: They had several bad contracts on their books. That's no reason to applaud them. Down on the farm, Bubba Starling is looking like a bust. Kyle Zimmer can't stay healthy. Adalberto Mondesi is good but super young. They traded away Odorizzi for Shields. Didn't have a whole lot in the upper minors.

 

[CougarClaws]

Yep and, appropriately, built their team from within and with "dumpster dives". Signed Edinson Volquez after an "eh" year, since they figured the defense and ballpark would help (which it did). Signed Morales after a -1.8 WAR season. Signed Rios. Signed Guthrie. Wouldn't spend for Shields. Took on less payroll than the Pirates at the deadline.

They also, IMO, had a bit more of a window with Alex Gordon due to their farm system being a bit depleted.

Edit: They had several bad contracts on their books. That's no reason to applaud them. Down on the farm, Bubba Starling is looking like a bust. Kyle Zimmer can't stay healthy. Adalberto Mondesi is good but super young. They traded away Odorizzi for Shields. Didn't have a whole lot in the upper minors.

This is the best part of the thread 11. Nice job explaining the logic to the illogical.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

This is the best part of the thread 11. Nice job explaining the logic to the illogical.

Right, everybody freaks out about the Pirates signing reclamation projects as pitchers, but Edinson Volquez had a 4.20 xFIP in Pittsburgh and then put up a 4.26 xFIP in Kansas City. That would have been the 4th worst xFIP on the Pirates staff, and that's including Jaff Decker. Before coming to Pittsburgh, Volquez was actually a little bit better as he posted a 4.07 xFIP in the year he put up a 5.71 ERA (meaning he had bad defense behind him and/or bad HR luck).

Similar to the Pirates, Kansas City doesn't generally "fix" pitchers in the sense that pitchers get magically better individually. Kansas City puts pitchers in front of an extremely effective defense and a massive ballpark and allows their ERAs to be naturally suppressed that way. Individually, pitchers don't really tend to "improve" in terms of more strikeouts or less walks, they just tend to have more of their balls put in play converted into outs due to a strong defense and a big home park, and maybe some better pitch calling to set up batted balls into shifts. But still, it's more of a systemic thing than a pitcher all of a sudden becoming a beast.

Further, if the Pirates signed a 1B who had a -1.8 WAR last year and is coming off of a 218/274/338 season the fans would be freaking out -- that's exactly what the Royals did with Kendrys Morales.

Perhaps somebody would want to argue that it's good scouting on the part of the Royals, and it might be. But with the value the Pirates have been able to get from similar bounceback candidates, that same concession would need to be made for the Pirates. Also, the Royals whiffed on Rios and Guthrie (which is to be expected in free agency, it's a horrible way to build a team), so how do you explain those dumpster dives not panning out?

There's always a desire to romanticize things or create a narrative around how/why something happened the way it did. Humans are natural storytellers and there's always the need to believe that something greater was what influenced one team to triumph while another failed. Generally, though, it's just all a bunch of revisionist history used to explain the inherent weirdness and randomness that occurs in sports. That doesn't sell newspapers or generate clicks, but it does have actual relevance in terms of team behavior and decision making.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Here's an article I had posted in another thread, but I think it's pertinent. It breaks down the big contracts given out to pitchers, as well as the mid-sized contracts given out (Francisco Liriano is included). Basically, the conclusion is that these contracts working out is a crapshoot (as anybody with even a casual interest in baseball would know).

The best way to build is (again, obviously) with homegrown arms. However, I also believe that, by extension, signing "dumpster dive" pitchers is also a wiser path to take, as you are still assuming the same productivity risk that everybody else is but not the financial risk. If you're a team like the Pirates that has a very specific pitcher that fits what they like (groundball pitchers who throw a heavy 2-seamer or sinker), it's an even wiser path to take as you're likely to be able to sign pitchers that other teams are undervaluing relative to you.

If you're a large market team who can absorb a bunch of large contracts to bad players (hi, Dodgers and Yankees), then this doesn't matter. But if you're a team with a finite amount of cash inflow, then it's relevant, IMO.

Winning the Pitching Offseason

 

[TD_istheman]

Nutting is RICH!!! HE HAS BILLIONS AND BILLIONS , GOOOOOO NUTTINGS WALLET

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Nutting is RICH!!! HE HAS BILLIONS AND BILLIONS , GOOOOOO NUTTINGS WALLET

This is totally irrelevant, but I applaud you for willingly trotting out the rallying cry for a guy who has literally built his career on stirring the pot rather than being factually accurate or logically sound.

"166 super genius IQ, as verified by none other than me, the person who will hang up on any coherent argument that paints me in a corner and brings facts into the conversation".

 

[CougarClaws]

Nutting is RICH!!! HE HAS BILLIONS AND BILLIONS , GOOOOOO NUTTINGS WALLET

These guys are so so predictable. And this is all the ever got...

 

[Pittbaseball11]

These guys are so so predictable. And this is all the ever got...

I mean, if somebody with questionable grammar and non-existent reasoning skills tells me he has a 166 IQ, I'd just slurp it up like a lapdog, too.

Pittsburgh sports radio, and sports reporting in general, is truly fascinating. In other cities, the radio shows don't take calls at all. You have radio hosts offering legitimate insight and conducting legitimately interesting interviews with guests. In Pittsburgh, it's all based on talking to half-lit callers who you rile up and encourage to call in and say dumb stuff. I can listen to a radio show in Houston and not hear a single caller. If I do, it's a perfectly rational individual. In Pittsburgh though you just have hosts looking to stir up the crazies, then having the crazies call in, and then taking calls from the other crazies who disagree with the first group of crazies. It's entertainment, but it's a total trainwreck from an information point of view.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Another for the FWIW file:

ZiPS, one of the more well respected projection systems, just forecasted the Pirates for 84 wins despite Mike Morse being the only 1B and Allen Webster being included in the rotation.

I would never take any of these as gospel, there's a ridiculous amount of variance within a baseball season just because of the random nature of the sport, but there's perhaps a bit of an overreaction to the team on paper at this point.

The general baseline is that a team full of replacement level players would win about 48 games:

 

[DruidTM]

My initial reaction to this is.... Who in the hell discusses baseball at this time of year???

Seriously...let alone at this level of detail?

 

[Delpanther]

Just like the Nutting haters will say that having Charlie Morton as one of your starters is proof that Nutting doesn't care about winning and trading Charlie Morton is proof that Nutting doesn't care about winning.

Both statements can be true dependent on the circumstances. Is that a subtlety that escapes you?

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Both statements can be true dependent on the circumstances. Is that a subtlety that escapes you?

No, not at all. When you think that every decision the Pirates make is the wrong one then it's obviously wrong to have Charlie Morton on your team and it's also obviously wrong to remove Charlie Morton from your team. The only thing that escapes me is how you can possibly think that your arguments are in any way subtle. Pirates suck. Nutting sucks. The whole team sucks. Trading away guys who suck sucks. And on and on.

You've never made a subtle point about the Pirates on this board one time. The idea that you think that perhaps you or your blockhead pal TD have is hilarious.

 

[TD_istheman]

I mean, if somebody with questionable grammar and non-existent reasoning skills tells me he has a 166 IQ, I'd just slurp it up like a lapdog, too.

Pittsburgh sports radio, and sports reporting in general, is truly fascinating. In other cities, the radio shows don't take calls at all. You have radio hosts offering legitimate insight and conducting legitimately interesting interviews with guests. In Pittsburgh, it's all based on talking to half-lit callers who you rile up and encourage to call in and say dumb stuff. I can listen to a radio show in Houston and not hear a single caller. If I do, it's a perfectly rational individual. In Pittsburgh though you just have hosts looking to stir up the crazies, then having the crazies call in, and then taking calls from the other crazies who disagree with the first group of crazies. It's entertainment, but it's a total trainwreck from an information point of view.

Only a loser attacks others, can't refute anything I said, Nutting is a cheap azz, and you with Ron lap it all up!

 

[Delpanther]

No, not at all. When you think that every decision the Pirates make is the wrong one then it's obviously wrong to have Charlie Morton on your team and it's also obviously wrong to remove Charlie Morton from your team. The only thing that escapes me is how you can possibly think that your arguments are in any way subtle. Pirates suck. Nutting sucks. The whole team sucks. Trading away guys who suck sucks. And on and on.

You've never made a subtle point about the Pirates on this board one time. The idea that you think that perhaps you or your blockhead pal TD have is hilarious.

Whoever suggested that I wanted to be subtle in my attacks on Nutting-he's a cheap bum , pure and simple and the Pirates will never win a championship as long as that bum is the owner. That aside, let me give you a little lesson logic because you obviously "lack" in this area based on your comments. There is nothing inconsistent in holding the duel view that: Charlie Morton is not good enough to be the third starter on your staff if you perceive yourself to be a contender; and second, if and when you do trade him that you should receive equal value in return, particularly when you don't currently have a pitcher even as good as Morton to replace him in the starting rotation. That's simple logic and that's not some contorted thinking arising from hating all things Pirates. Your failure to see this simple point confirms what you are, and that is, a Nutting lackey who supports whatever he does borne out of some yinzer tenet that holds that if you support a team you turn a blind eye to every dumb thing they do. That's you and your ilk in a nuthsell. Enjoy your bobblheads. Do you have the complete set? I bet they're displayed proudly in your china cabinet.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I have no idea what the Pirates are going to do. However, I do know that it's December 15. Relax and let's see how this looks on April 1. That's not too much to ask, is it?

 

[TD_istheman]

Whoever suggested that I wanted to be subtle in my attacks on Nutting-he's a cheap bum , pure and simple and the Pirates will never win a championship as long as that bum is the owner. That aside, let me give you a little lesson logic because you obviously "lack" in this area based on your comments. There is nothing inconsistent in holding the duel view that: Charlie Morton is not good enough to be the third starter on your staff if you perceive yourself to be a contender; and second, if and when you do trade him that you should receive equal value in return, particularly when you don't currently have a pitcher even as good as Morton to replace him in the starting rotation. That's simple logic and that's not some contorted thinking arising from hating all things Pirates. Your failure to see this simple point confirms what you are, and that is, a Nutting lackey who supports whatever he does borne out of some yinzer tenet that holds that if you support a team you turn a blind eye to every dumb thing they do. That's you and your ilk in a nuthsell. Enjoy your bobblheads. Do you have the complete set? I bet they're displayed proudly in your china cabinet.

You nailed it, and you could say this about a few in here, shameful how they protect nutbags at all cost

 

[pittdan77]

Listened to some radio guys talking about "making room" to sign other players. Like baseball has a cap. You can't dump a starter for a prospect and trade/release 40+ home runs and call it anything but a salary dump. The Pirates have managed to convince everyone that they just can't afford to compete for free agents as they consistently turn a profit.

I'd say their main goal is being accomplished year after year. Fill the seats and do just enough to compete. Let the $'s flow.

 

[KiwiJeff]

Whoever suggested that I wanted to be subtle in my attacks on Nutting-he's a cheap bum , pure and simple and the Pirates will never win a championship as long as that bum is the owner. That aside, let me give you a little lesson logic because you obviously "lack" in this area based on your comments. There is nothing inconsistent in holding the duel view that: Charlie Morton is not good enough to be the third starter on your staff if you perceive yourself to be a contender; and second, if and when you do trade him that you should receive equal value in return, particularly when you don't currently have a pitcher even as good as Morton to replace him in the starting rotation. That's simple logic and that's not some contorted thinking arising from hating all things Pirates. Your failure to see this simple point confirms what you are, and that is, a Nutting lackey who supports whatever he does borne out of some yinzer tenet that holds that if you support a team you turn a blind eye to every dumb thing they do. That's you and your ilk in a nuthsell. Enjoy your bobblheads. Do you have the complete set? I bet they're displayed proudly in your china cabinet.

I don't want to get into the personal debates, but what is the perceived trade value for a guy who is not capable of being the 3rd starter in a rotation? Everything I read on here says Morton isn't worth his salt, if our fans know that, I presume other GMs know that too. So what is fair market value for him?

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I don't want to get into the personal debates, but what is the perceived trade value for a guy who is not capable of being the 3rd starter in a rotation? Everything I read on here says Morton isn't worth his salt, if our fans know that, I presume other GMs know that too. So what is fair market value for him?

That's just it. These simpletons think both that Charlie Morton sucks and that the Pirates should be able to trade him for something good. And then the dumbass makes an appeal to logic. Del wouldn't know logic if it hit him in the face. His idea of logic is Pirates suck, Nutting sucks, Charlie Morton sucks, not trading Charlie Morton for a good player sucks, everyone who knows more about this than me sucks.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I have no idea what the Pirates are going to do. However, I do know that it's December 15. Relax and let's see how this looks on April 1. That's not too much to ask, is it?

Clearly it is. Do you know why? Nutting sucks.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Serious questions:

1. Did people really believe the Pirates aren't going to add another pitcher?

2. Did people view Morton as anybody except the odd man out when that occurs? The system is teeming with sinker balling righthanders and half the city doesn't even believe he's a legitimate MLB starting pitcher.

3. Did anybody think he had actual trade value with his contract? It's not a bad contract, but it's not a good contract either. He's more or less paid his worth. As such, he has trade value around 0. Likewise, Alvarez would have likely been paid more than he was worth in arbitration. Therefore, he couldn't be traded. Contracts matter.

Logically this all seems silly.

 

[OmarLittle]

That's just it. These simpletons think both that Charlie Morton sucks and that the Pirates should be able to trade him for something good. And then the dumbass makes an appeal to logic. Del wouldn't know logic if it hit him in the face. His idea of logic is Pirates suck, Nutting sucks, Charlie Morton sucks, not trading Charlie Morton for a good player sucks, everyone who knows more about this than me sucks.

Just the people I talk baseball with, no one really thinks he 'sucks'.
The consensus is hes an OK 4th starter, and an above average 5th starter. Unfortunatly the Pirates don't even have someone as good as their 3rd this year (yet).
They did some things the right way the last few years, won the fans back. They still have the 'name' for another couple years and are slamming it into cruise control while they still have the nuttards on board.

They just need to hover around .500 and it will be a good 4-5 years before some of you concede they dont gaf about building a team, just putting one out there good enough to take your money.

Hopefully they prove me wrong with some moves other than 'whos left after everyone else is done spending real money' but I doubt it.