Pitt Med, great idea! Multi use Jackson State Stadium without dome is $200M

[NTOP]

I get that NTOP I do. I guess my overall point is that if not for football we are not in the ACC. So hoops provides only a small portion to the long range revenue perspective. My argument, right or wrong, simply is football needs to be back on campus. How that's done or if it is even considered is a topic I really don't have much interest in. I'm just saying Minnisota barked up the right tree and got it done. Pitt at Heinz field will never work year in year out IMO. You know me from the hoop side!!! Love hoops. Remember watching the real Big Games at Fitz when I was going B to Pitt in the 80s. I was at 50 feet from Lane's monster dunk. I love the Pete. But under ALL circumstances I believe Pitt needs that stadium back closer to campus. Pipe dream I get. But warts for football program til it happens.

Makes no fiscal sense. I said in 1998 we'd never be in Oakland for FB. But the real problem is that FB LOSES money. BB does not, hasn't for 12-13 years. Basically, BB covers a good chunk of the FB losses, and the General Fund pays for the rest + all of the non-revenue sports.
If we did throw $400 million at a stadium, debt service would be $15-20 million/year. Add that to existing costs, subtract the Rooney rent, and most of the ACC $$ is consumed. I'd like it in Oakland, too.....but it's unrealistic.

 

[HailtoPitt]

Makes no fiscal sense. I said in 1998 we'd never be in Oakland for FB. But the real problem is that FB LOSES money. BB does not, hasn't for 12-13 years. Basically, BB covers a good chunk of the FB losses, and the General Fund pays for the rest + all of the non-revenue sports.
If we did throw $400 million at a stadium, debt service would be $15-20 million/year. Add that to existing costs, subtract the Rooney rent, and most of the ACC $$ is consumed. I'd like it in Oakland, too.....but it's unrealistic.

The debt numbers depend on how much Pitt could secure in private donations for the stadium.

 

[Pitt4Life34]

Makes no fiscal sense. I said in 1998 we'd never be in Oakland for FB. But the real problem is that FB LOSES money. BB does not, hasn't for 12-13 years. Basically, BB covers a good chunk of the FB losses, and the General Fund pays for the rest + all of the non-revenue sports.
If we did throw $400 million at a stadium, debt service would be $15-20 million/year. Add that to existing costs, subtract the Rooney rent, and most of the ACC $$ is consumed. I'd like it in Oakland, too.....but it's unrealistic.

Football is the only sport that matters to conference tv contracts. Football is the only reason Pitt is in the ACC. That's an easy one to concede. Then ask everyone involved how much money and ........,,,everything else......the ACC and its membership has added to Pitt and our brand. The outcome is solely because our football program got us there. Football, not basketball, is why we have increases in revenue and donations. The ACC is responsible for our growth in the future. Basketball is a minor player in our long term growth. Football is part of the foundation. Like it or not(not you personally) that is fact. We are in the ACC solely because of football. Priorities should be with that program under all circumstances IMO.

 

[Pitt4Life34]

Makes no fiscal sense. I said in 1998 we'd never be in Oakland for FB. But the real problem is that FB LOSES money. BB does not, hasn't for 12-13 years. Basically, BB covers a good chunk of the FB losses, and the General Fund pays for the rest + all of the non-revenue sports.
If we did throw $400 million at a stadium, debt service would be $15-20 million/year. Add that to existing costs, subtract the Rooney rent, and most of the ACC $$ is consumed. I'd like it in Oakland, too.....but it's unrealistic.

A second thought NTOP on the belief that "football loses money" and Basketball makes money. Those that view football strictly from the program's financials miss the most important part of the ACCs worth to the university. When there is a donation now academically, the football program paved the way for some percentage of that donation. And, all four corners of our university is now touched by our football program.

 

[NTOP]

The debt numbers depend on how much Pitt could secure in private donations for the stadium.

Yep. That's unknown. You'd need lots of people with more $$ than brains, IMHO. I'm sure there are a few. But Pitt's made absolutely no move in that direction.

 

[NTOP]

Football is the only sport that matters to conference tv contracts. Football is the only reason Pitt is in the ACC. That's an easy one to concede. Then ask everyone involved how much money and ........,,,everything else......the ACC and its membership has added to Pitt and our brand. The outcome is solely because our football program got us there. Football, not basketball, is why we have increases in revenue and donations. The ACC is responsible for our growth in the future. Basketball is a minor player in our long term growth. Football is part of the foundation. Like it or not(not you personally) that is fact. We are in the ACC solely because of football. Priorities should be with that program under all circumstances IMO.

You are NOT correct that BB has been a minor player. Those Club seats increased donations by a nice, fat number. And we're in the ACC because of our location & academics moreso than FB prowess 35 years ago. Hint: the ACC is run by the Carolina schools. They are BB-first, all 4 of them.
Pitt FB has enormous potential, but the University hasn't capitalized on it. Moving off campus was the first sign that Pitt wasn't that interested in being FB-elite. I'd love to see Duzz & Co. put us on top, again. I survived DePasqua.

 

[Pitt4Life34]

You are NOT correct that BB has been a minor player. Those Club seats increased donations by a nice, fat number. And we're in the ACC because of our location & academics moreso than FB prowess 35 years ago. Hint: the ACC is run by the Carolina schools. They are BB-first, all 4 of them.
Pitt FB has enormous potential, but the University hasn't capitalized on it. Moving off campus was the first sign that Pitt wasn't that interested in being FB-elite. I'd love to see Duzz & Co. put us on top, again. I survived DePasqua.

Ok that's what I was fishing for with the hoop crowd(which btw includes me) in this thread........"we're in the ACC because of our location and academics more so than FB prowess 35 years ago". I'll confidently agree to disagree with you based on the sources I had access to during that time period.

You're second paragraph is right on NTOP. Couldn't be said better IMO. My main points I've discussed in this thread are more related to 10 years from now. Just me but I know there's another totality side of the equation. I just feel the 25 year investment needs to be made over the next 5-7 years. Whatever the long term plan is athletically it must have football as the cornerstone to that planning. To me(opinion) football needs to be on campus or very close. Hoops at Consol isn't a disaster. Football at Heinz is.

 

[eastcoasthoops]

Ok that's what I was fishing for with the hoop crowd(which btw includes me) in this thread........"we're in the ACC because of our location and academics more so than FB prowess 35 years ago". I'll confidently agree to disagree with you based on the sources I had access to during that time period.

You're second paragraph is right on NTOP. Couldn't be said better IMO. My main points I've discussed in this thread are more related to 10 years from now. Just me but I know there's another totality side of the equation. I just feel the 25 year investment needs to be made over the next 5-7 years. Whatever the long term plan is athletically it must have football as the cornerstone to that planning. To me(opinion) football needs to be on campus or very close. Hoops at Consol isn't a disaster. Football at Heinz is.

I don't mean to pick on you personally Greg, but you bring up an interesting point. What is the required distance from the center of campus for a football stadium to be optimally impactful to the football program? Is there a magic distance? Does that distance change over the years? Seems that the 3.72 miles between Coral Gables and the Orange Bowl didn't effect the Hurricanes in the 80s. Does UCLA really not take football seriously since it's over 20 miles between campus and the Rose Bowl? Is it only a mile, since that's the distance between Beaver Stadium and the center of their campus…and God knows we have to compare everything Pitt does to Penn State as if that's the only reflection acceptable.

I'm sorry, but this "on campus/off campus" false argument is complete bullshit. Do you know why it is perceived that Pitt doesn't take football seriously? BECAUSE THE PITT ALUMNI/BOOSTER/FANS/SUPPORTERS DON'T. How do I know that? Because of money and asses. Want Pitt Football to be taken seriously? Get 4 more of your friends to purchase season tickets and GO to the games and also donate an extra $500 a year. If enough of us do that, it will make a much bigger difference than the 4 miles of distance between the Cathedral and Heinz.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

You ran off into left field crunching numbers. Have at it 4L. You haven't stated one thing that is earth shattering. Here's my point that I made again as clear as I can make it. Basketball doesn't mean dick long term and football means everything long term. So for those that say leave football at Heinz and don't come near The Pete for real estate I say the long term plan must have basketball needs as a very secondary priority. A second point I made was I have no idea what the solution looks like and how viable a move back to Oakland would be. Or timeline. But like any SWAT analysis would show there are threats that a strong hoop program would not even put a scratch on. Only a strong football program would combat long term threats to the Athletic Department.

I know I didn't say anything earth shattering, it was a statement of facts.
Why that bothered you, I have no idea.

And I think you mean SWOT, analysis. If you want to use jargon to impress, getting it right is a good step. ;-)

Football has always had more "potential" to be a cash cow..but...like I said..literally for decades- our fansbase- even during the best of times...didn't ante up.

So, my optimism for anything other than dirt cheap tickets (especially with secondary markets now easy and keeping demand low).. and for only embarassing low mandatory donation levels -see first stanza...
It'll continue to be status quo.

You're friendly neighborhood PharmD, MBA.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Ok that's what I was fishing for with the hoop crowd(which btw includes me) in this thread........"we're in the ACC because of our location and academics more so than FB prowess 35 years ago". I'll confidently agree to disagree with you based on the sources I had access to during that time period.

You're second paragraph is right on NTOP. Couldn't be said better IMO. My main points I've discussed in this thread are more related to 10 years from now. Just me but I know there's another totality side of the equation. I just feel the 25 year investment needs to be made over the next 5-7 years. Whatever the long term plan is athletically it must have football as the cornerstone to that planning. To me(opinion) football needs to be on campus or very close. Hoops at Consol isn't a disaster. Football at Heinz is.

You can agree to disagree...but the inclusion of expansion to Pitt, Cuse, and prior BC indicated FB performance wasn't the big deal.
Frankly, Pitt and Cuse were fits for the profile of the conference- to enable a renegotiation with ESPN by changing the variables of the previous contract.

If football was the driver- WVU would have been in the lead seat for inclusion in the ACC, right? They were a significantly more relevant football program than Pitt or Cuse. Or maybe even Cincy, TCU, or poaching from the B12/B10/SEC footprint- ie pulling South Carolina back into the ACC, Tenn/Vandy,etc.

Pitt and Cuse were the most feasible additions to max value of the TV revenue by adding new markets in higher population areas.

Not more complicated than that, in actuality. Nordy and SP/Long helped position Pitt to be more attractive the second time around, due to facilities upgrades for athletics- plus a reasonably good academic profile.

The ACC pinched their nose and swallowed hard to invite UL like they did for VT...to make Clemson and FSU happy and committed.

 

[NTOP]

Ok that's what I was fishing for with the hoop crowd(which btw includes me) in this thread........"we're in the ACC because of our location and academics more so than FB prowess 35 years ago". I'll confidently agree to disagree with you based on the sources I had access to during that time period.

You're second paragraph is right on NTOP. Couldn't be said better IMO. My main points I've discussed in this thread are more related to 10 years from now. Just me but I know there's another totality side of the equation. I just feel the 25 year investment needs to be made over the next 5-7 years. Whatever the long term plan is athletically it must have football as the cornerstone to that planning. To me(opinion) football needs to be on campus or very close. Hoops at Consol isn't a disaster. Football at Heinz is.

The Consol forPitt hoops = Mellon for Duquesne hoops. Death sentence.
Football should be the bellcow....but it hasn't been for a LONG time. I've always preferred an on-campus stadium....but the University won't do it. Do you think the ACC was impressed with Graham?? Wanny?? The results on the field??? They might be hoping for a true revival....but I've seen nothing from Gallagher or Barnes to think a new stadium is in their plans. Barnes was effusive in praising the HF situation.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

The Consol forPitt hoops = Mellon for Duquesne hoops. Death sentence.
Football should be the bellcow....but it hasn't been for a LONG time. I've always preferred an on-campus stadium....but the University won't do it. Do you think the ACC was impressed with Graham?? Wanny?? The results on the field??? They might be hoping for a true revival....but I've seen nothing from Gallagher or Barnes to think a new stadium is in their plans. Barnes was effusive in praising the HF situation.

They didn't throw out the $400 mil figure for public consumption for no reason.
If there is will from donors and boosters they will entertain it...but, they won't put the financial stewardship of Pitt at risk for it.

 

[HailtoPitt]

Pitt and Cuse were the most feasible additions to max value of the TV revenue by adding new markets in higher population areas.

This is correct, so hopefully we can dispel with the idea the quality of the teams, or the size or condition of the facilities, is what mattered. I could have been AD or Chancellor and Pitt would have gotten an invite to the ACC.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

This is correct, so hopefully we can dispel with the idea the quality of the teams, or the size or condition of the facilities, is what mattered. I could have been AD or Chancellor and Pitt would have gotten an invite to the ACC.

They get the glory since it happened on their watch.
Same way some will make them the goat for other things, likewise beyond their control.

See how that works?

 

[Pitt4Life34]

I don't mean to pick on you personally Greg, but you bring up an interesting point. What is the required distance from the center of campus for a football stadium to be optimally impactful to the football program? Is there a magic distance? Does that distance change over the years? Seems that the 3.72 miles between Coral Gables and the Orange Bowl didn't effect the Hurricanes in the 80s. Does UCLA really not take football seriously since it's over 20 miles between campus and the Rose Bowl? Is it only a mile, since that's the distance between Beaver Stadium and the center of their campus…and God knows we have to compare everything Pitt does to Penn State as if that's the only reflection acceptable.

I'm sorry, but this "on campus/off campus" false argument is complete bullshit. Do you know why it is perceived that Pitt doesn't take football seriously? BECAUSE THE PITT ALUMNI/BOOSTER/FANS/SUPPORTERS DON'T. How do I know that? Because of money and asses. Want Pitt Football to be taken seriously? Get 4 more of your friends to purchase season tickets and GO to the games and also donate an extra $500 a year. If enough of us do that, it will make a much bigger difference than the 4 miles of distance between the Cathedral and Heinz.

Fair perspective eastcoast. Except for the shot at the end if intended. I support Pitt and promote my university both in football and hoops. It's not my responsibility to gather friends for the athletic department. That responsibility is for the AD and Ms Anderson. My arguments aren't bullet proof but I'll just agree to disagree with you, NTOP and the emotional poster. You and NTOP are legit positions but I just see a serious threat long term with an ACC Pitt down at Heinz.

 

[eastcoasthoops]

Fair perspective eastcoast. Except for the shot at the end if intended. I support Pitt and promote my university both in football and hoops. It's not my responsibility to gather friends for the athletic department. That responsibility is for the AD and Ms Anderson. My arguments aren't bullet proof but I'll just agree to disagree with you, NTOP and the emotional poster. You and NTOP are legit positions but I just see a serious threat long term with an ACC Pitt down at Heinz.

I wasn't taking a shot at you man, I include myself in that "us". Ultimately we all want Pitt athletics to excel. I just take the point of view that the address of the stadium has marginal real effect.

 

[Pitt4Life34]

I know I didn't say anything earth shattering, it was a statement of facts.
Why that bothered you, I have no idea.

And I think you mean SWOT, analysis. If you want to use jargon to impress, getting it right is a good step. ;-)

Football has always had more "potential" to be a cash cow..but...like I said..literally for decades- our fansbase- even during the best of times...didn't ante up.

So, my optimism for anything other than dirt cheap tickets (especially with secondary markets now easy and keeping demand low).. and for only embarassing low mandatory donation levels -see first stanza...
It'll continue to be status quo.

You're friendly neighborhood PharmD, MBA.

Relax pal I trust you're smart and successful. No worries there! I've done major strategic planning for Pennsylvania development for two Fortune 500 companies. So I'm good there MBA. I don't care if you went to Harvard if you think the long term AD plan doesn't rely on the football programs viability you're an F'n idiot that is well educated. You get emotional in discussion and can't seem to understand what facts are facts. Fact.....no football no ACC. No ACC.......you know. You can ignore that fact all you like but that's a huge basis for the long term threats that will reappear one more time over the next ten years.

 

[Pitt4Life34]

I wasn't taking a shot at you man, I include myself in that "us". Ultimately we all want Pitt athletics to excel. I just take the point of view that the address of the stadium has marginal real effect.

Didn't think so but taking four-direction shots for promoting a position in what I consider my favorite thread topic in a very long time. Thanks for chirping in. You're right brother we're all in this together

 

[Pitt4Life34]

You can agree to disagree...but the inclusion of expansion to Pitt, Cuse, and prior BC indicated FB performance wasn't the big deal.
Frankly, Pitt and Cuse were fits for the profile of the conference- to enable a renegotiation with ESPN by changing the variables of the previous contract.

If football was the driver- WVU would have been in the lead seat for inclusion in the ACC, right? They were a significantly more relevant football program than Pitt or Cuse. Or maybe even Cincy, TCU, or poaching from the B12/B10/SEC footprint- ie pulling South Carolina back into the ACC, Tenn/Vandy,etc.

Pitt and Cuse were the most feasible additions to max value of the TV revenue by adding new markets in higher population areas.

Not more complicated than that, in actuality. Nordy and SP/Long helped position Pitt to be more attractive the second time around, due to facilities upgrades for athletics- plus a reasonably good academic profile.

The ACC pinched their nose and swallowed hard to invite UL like they did for VT...to make Clemson and FSU happy and committed.

Here's the funny thing to me 4L. You're making shitt up on the fly on site where you can claim to be the President of the USA. I was fortunate to have at least three relationships that let me process some really interesting information during the realignment process. Before and after. You arrogantly present a factual reason why the ACC did what they did. Yet I sit here at Danotos having a great red after my go-to crabmeat stuffed lobster thinking you're probably a smart guy. Probably a consultant of some kind. Maybe corporate finance. So why don't you take a step back use your education and follow he money. My perspective follows the money! The money in 2025. Now could my sources that generate my opinion be wrong?
Not a chance!

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Here's the funny thing to me 4L. You're making shitt up on the fly on site where you can claim to be the President of the USA. I was fortunate to have at least three relationships that let me process some really interesting information during the realignment process. Before and after. You arrogantly present a factual reason why the ACC did what they did. Yet I sit here at Danotos having a great red after my go-to crabmeat stuffed lobster thinking you're probably a smart guy. Probably a consultant of some kind. Maybe corporate finance. So why don't you take a step back use your education and follow he money. My perspective follows the money! The money in 2025. Now could my sources that generate my opinion be wrong?
Not a chance!

I'm not making any of it up,
Nor did I make up the margin on hoops compared to football prior to acc tv revenue.

I'm not pretending to be some insider or big deal , I'm not .
But I've lived in chapel hill for the past 14 years... With relationships built across the 4 local colleges...
Never mind having a relationship from Pitt with my former dean .

If your folks are telling you that Pitt and cuse were invited because of our football potential/..they are lying to you in relation to the acc invite .ive followed the money... It was tv contract renegotiation exclusively which drove the expansion and our inclusion .

Same reason the big ten grabbed Rutgers and Maryland .

 

[Pitt4Life34]

The Consol forPitt hoops = Mellon for Duquesne hoops. Death sentence.
Football should be the bellcow....but it hasn't been for a LONG time. I've always preferred an on-campus stadium....but the University won't do it. Do you think the ACC was impressed with Graham?? Wanny?? The results on the field??? They might be hoping for a true revival....but I've seen nothing from Gallagher or Barnes to think a new stadium is in their plans. Barnes was effusive in praising the HF situation.

I haven't seen anything or heard anything in regards to seeing on campus stadium planning. For sure you're right on there. My argument wasn't attached to a solution for getting football back to Oakland. Unlike the guy busting my chops for interchanging Alternatives(my training at Pitney Bowes) with Opportunities in his MBA edition I won't claim to speak factually in a broken language like he does. If your argument is kinda blah blah Greg how that get done I would crumble and hit up the next thread LOL. So my Consol comment was typical keyboard response. Is that viable or a death sentence? I have no idea so in this thread I'm no problem solver.

 

[Pitt4Life34]

I'm not making any of it up,
Nor did I make up the margin on hoops compared to football prior to acc tv revenue.

I'm not pretending to be some insider or big deal , I'm not .
But I've lived in chapel hill for the past 14 years... With relationships built across the 4 local colleges...
Never mind having a relationship from Pitt with my former dean .

If your folks are telling you that Pitt and cuse were invited because of our football potential/..they are lying to you in relation to the acc invite .ive followed the money... It was tv contract renegotiation exclusively which drove the expansion and our inclusion .

Same reason the big ten grabbed Rutgers and Maryland .

Again nothing earth shattering from you. I'm far from an insider and always qualify what I know and how reliable info is. You just disregarded my sources with a broad brush. Actually called them liars. Funny stuff! So here's the deal 4L. Some of my non insider sources no doubt are reading this thread. It would suprise you who has a PantherLair account. So have at it buddy. Keep telling me about Pitt and he ACC. It will make for fun talk when we're golfing in a month or two. I took the same kinda crap from a couple emotional posters like you when I reported(as passively as I could) information regarding the Hudson recruiting saga. So I say you and I just move on. It's ok if you think I'm an idiot. It's ok if I think that you put the wrong facts into this thread making you....well whatever. That's all ok. Time to move in my mind.
We good?

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

I don't think you're an idiot.
And have no idea what Hudson saga you're referring because I really don't know or care anything about the decisions of teenagers

I corrected your pronouncement of the importance of each sport related to subsidizing the Athletic department the past decade , which is factual and objective data I've linked dozens of times from federal reports

I also suggested the primary driver for our inclusion the second time was due to our tv value to their negotiations .. Not because we had a great team 30 years ago. Which is factual.
The financial strength and stewardship from nordy and Steve to reinvest in our athletics sealed the deal

maybe eventually our fanbase will pay premium prices and donate willingly to football. I sure hope so..my wish is I get priced out of our club seats since we live 500 miles away and rarely go.
As it is, I keep them to support football with my dollars , because they are no financial burden to us..even though we attended zero games last year .
My family , friends, and tickets for kids get most of them

Your dinner sounds great ...enjoy the golf

 

[Pitt4Life34]

I don't think you're an idiot.
And have no idea what Hudson saga you're referring because I really don't know or care anything about the decisions of teenagers

I corrected your pronouncement of the importance of each sport related to subsidizing the Athletic department the past decade , which is factual and objective data I've linked dozens of times from federal reports

I also suggested the primary driver for our inclusion the second time was due to our tv value to their negotiations .. Not because we had a great team 30 years ago. Which is factual.
The financial strength and stewardship from nordy and Steve to reinvest in our athletics sealed the deal

maybe eventually our fanbase will pay premium prices and donate willingly to football. I sure hope so..my wish is I get priced out of our club seats since we live 500 miles away and rarely go.
As it is, I keep them to support football with my dollars , because they are no financial burden to us..even though we attended zero games last year .
My family , friends, and tickets for kids get most of them

Your dinner sounds great ...enjoy the golf

Fair enough! Safe endevors to you and if you're in the Fox Chapel area at some point Donato's is a solid experience.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Live in North Carolina , so unlikely .

 

[giveitarest]

Just to add fuel to discussion this was in the Trib from Scott Barnes
http://blog.triblive.com/college-lo...cott-barnes-via-triblive-radio/#axzz41Hkey6AF


"When Barnes was told about a recent TLR poll that revealed that people still miss Pitt Stadium, he acknowledged that “the feelings and emotions of the past come into play.”
But he said students have been buying tickets to Heinz Field at a record pace for the 2016 seven-game schedule and, he added with a smile that was detectable through the phone, “they are staying into the fourth quarter (beyond `Sweet Caroline’).”
Barnes loves the affiliation with the Steelers at Heinz Field, and he has no plans to lose that for an on-campus facility that is not logistically sound or possible (unless you see nothing wrong with knocking down a neighborhood or a hospital).
Plus, Heinz Field for the first time will have a distinctly Pitt (script, no doubt) look on game days this season."

 

[HailtoPitt]

The pace that tickets are being sold doesn't mean much, frankly. What matters is how many are sold, how many show up, and how that looks after several years. Barnes certainly has a lot he can accomplish and I am curious to see what he actually does to make Heinz Field feel more like a Pitt atmosphere. I would also like to know what he asked for and the Steelers said "no" to.

 

[QuitCallingMeWanny]

Fair perspective eastcoast. Except for the shot at the end if intended. I support Pitt and promote my university both in football and hoops. It's not my responsibility to gather friends for the athletic department. That responsibility is for the AD and Ms Anderson. My arguments aren't bullet proof but I'll just agree to disagree with you, NTOP and the emotional poster. You and NTOP are legit positions but I just see a serious threat long term with an ACC Pitt down at Heinz.

Yep typical Pitt fan response, it's not my problem, let someone else do it

 

[Pitt4Life34]

Yep typical Pitt fan response, it's not my problem, let someone else do it

Get lost loser! That's so immature that's all you're getting out of me. Punk post from a punk poster.

 

[QuitCallingMeWanny]

Get lost loser! That's so immature that's all you're getting out of me. Punk post from a punk poster.

Apologies if the truth hurts