Pitt Tonight host interviews Chancellor & AD about stadium & paying athletes

[HailtoPitt]

How do you think fundraising efforts start on this scale of project (which adjusted for CPI inflation would have been over $210 million). It always starts with a private phase where you reach out to the reliable donors that underwrite substantial chunks of such projects. You know what is realistic or not before you launch something publicly. That's why there is a private phase to begin with. What's your fundraising experience to declare what is and is not a fundraising effort? Where's your reference?

I've never been involved with fundraising for a large football stadium, but typically the campaign process doesn't start with the private phase. Usually, there are several years of planning where the goal of your campaign is determined before that phase is reached. A university the size of Pitt would likely engage consultants to help with the planning and prospect identification phases. This planning process is used to determine a reasonable goal. THEN the quiet phase starts.

Pitt had the BoT "make a few calls"

They were never really serious about it. (Bozik considered resigning and fundraising the stadium project full time, so what happened?)

 

[CrazyPaco]

I have no idea why people overlook this, but it is real and remains a thorn in our side.
Any and all construction undertaken on behalf of the Commonwealth runs thru the Department of General Services (DGS). So when Pitt uses state funds in any form of construction, it is known as the "user" and DGS is the funder. Frequently, the user and the provider differ on how money should be used within a project.
When Pitt decided to tear down Pitt stadium (under Nordy and Peterson), the companion decision was to build the basketball arena we know now as the Pederson events Center.
Peterson made more enemies in Harrisburg and at DGS than any Pitt official before or after. That is quite a dubious accomplishment.
Peterson decided to "re-engineer" the Arena during the construction phase of the project. Basically, he stuck his nose in and demanded that "luxury" area behind the benches well after all the plans, specifications had been adopted and construction well underway. That change order alone meant that the Events Center went millions over budget...in the vicinity of 20 million.
That asinine move by Peterson started an avalanche of suits and claims. Not only was DGS out another 20 million or so, it had its staff tied up with lawsuits, etc. when other projects demanded their attention....and money!
Because PA required multiple prime contractors instead of one prime with many subs, this meant that every dog had its day in court as the costs flowed downhill. By statute, Commonwealth Court is the court of original jurisdiction in such matters so you did not hear much about it locally
This numbskull move by the arrogant Peterson burned more bridges than the retreating German Army did in WWII.
Pitt athletics has never quite recovered from this debacle in Harrisburg and specifically DGS.
And when your really deep pockets can't stand the sight of you, you have big problems.

Yes DGS was in charge, but it is hogwash that Steve Pederson, the athletic director, decided to re-engineer anything in the construction phase. Flat out false nonsense. It had to be re-engineered when the site shifted.

While there were changes and upgrades requested and granted, the floor boxes were not at all why it went over budget at all as they were part of the original design once moved to the stadium site, and they were certainly not a reason for lawsuits.

The major cost overruns (not the increased costs due to rolling two other projects in to it or just inflation of the plans collecting dust for 8 years), were two fold with the first being because the project was fast tracked adding greatly to the expense. The project also involved the hiring of way more contractors (25) than typical, several of which were duplicative. And again, this project was completely run and managed (and these hirings done) by DGS.

It actually got a lot of attention in Pittsburgh and a whole series of articles investigating it in the PG, which concluded:

"The extra expenditures were caused largely by administrative practices that encouraged and even rewarded mistakes and inefficiencies. The Petersen ended up with an unwieldy 25 prime contractors, for instance, and in the rush to meet deadlines, architectural drawings were often incomplete when they were submitted, leading to inaccurate construction bids and work delays."​

That's almost entirely on DGS. In fact, DGS got rid of Pitt's architects and hired its own. And the architects were blamed for most of the change orders: "60 percent of the extra work to "professional errors and omissions." Contractors were paid $10.8 million to fix architectural mistakes."

As far as Pitt's changes that the PG reported: "The university asked for extra features after the Petersen was designed, and the state approved $4.1 million in changes, including additional outdoor lighting, an elaborate flagpole courtyard near the entrance and other site work that cost $372,911. More food stands and kitchens cost $2.7 million."

In fact, "DGS ended the construction phase by accepting an unfinished building with a leaking roof. Rather than holding the contractors liable for roof repairs, DGS entered into settlement agreements with the contractors, then attempted to shift the remaining costs to the university." The actual reality is, although the companies sued the state for not being compensated appropriately, because that's who hired them, Pitt was required by its contract with the state to pay any settlements and Pitt took over defense of those claims. In the end, Pitt won multiple lawsuits based on failures in things like the roof.

So I don't know where you are getting your info, but it is largely bad info if you believe Steve Pederson was mostly to blame for the cost overruns. Maybe some of them, but this is largely on government inefficiency.

And while it did create a kerfuffle in Harrisburg, and an investigation, it didn't do any lasting damage to Pitt as far as funding capital projects.

 

[CrazyPaco]

I've never been involved with fundraising for a large football stadium, but typically the campaign process doesn't start with the private phase. Usually, there are several years of planning where the goal of your campaign is determined before that phase is reached. A university the size of Pitt would likely engage consultants to help with the planning and prospect identification phases. This planning process is used to determine a reasonable goal. THEN the quiet phase starts.

Pitt had the BoT "make a few calls"

They were never really serious about it.

I didn't invent the $92 million number. That wasn't just conjured out of thin air. There were consultants. There were architectural drawn made up. It was a supported dome structure, not inflated like in Syracuse. Pitt Stadium capacity would have been increased to 80K under the plan. They wanted it to be able to try to host major events like bowls or Final Fours.

Uh huh. Nice try on assuming what you don't know to fit an uninformed narrative.

 

[Swervin27]

can someone please tell me who's idea it was to put the boxes on the ground level? I'd like to know so I can punch them in the face if I ever see them.

the rest of the F ups sound like nothing more than union work. reading these posts, it's safe to say that anything that pitt could have screwed up with the Pederson events center, they did..

The 300k for the "elaborate flag pole courtyard" just has to make you laugh.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

The Pete will be 15 this season. Another 15 years and its right around the lifespan of many areans/stadiums.

I think what may eventually happen one, two, three decades from now is that that a smaller, cozier arena is built somewhere else on campus (think GT, Xavier, Miami) and a new football stadium is put on the Pitt Stadium/Pete site.

 

[Saboteur]

Yes DGS was in charge, but it is hogwash that Steve Pederson, the athletic director, decided to re-engineer anything in the construction phase. Flat out false nonsense. It had to be re-engineered when the site shifted.

While there were changes and upgrades requested and granted, the floor boxes were not at all why it went over budget at all as they were part of the original design once moved to the stadium site, and they were certainly not a reason for lawsuits.

The major cost overruns (not the increased costs due to rolling two other projects in to it or just inflation of the plans collecting dust for 8 years), were two fold with the first being because the project was fast tracked adding greatly to the expense. The project also involved the hiring of way more contractors (25) than typical, several of which were duplicative. And again, this project was completely run and managed (and these hirings done) by DGS.

It actually got a lot of attention in Pittsburgh and a whole series of articles investigating it in the PG, which concluded:

"The extra expenditures were caused largely by administrative practices that encouraged and even rewarded mistakes and inefficiencies. The Petersen ended up with an unwieldy 25 prime contractors, for instance, and in the rush to meet deadlines, architectural drawings were often incomplete when they were submitted, leading to inaccurate construction bids and work delays."​

That's almost entirely on DGS. In fact, DGS got rid of Pitt's architects and hired its own. And the architects were blamed for most of the change orders: "60 percent of the extra work to "professional errors and omissions." Contractors were paid $10.8 million to fix architectural mistakes."

As far as Pitt's changes that the PG reported: "The university asked for extra features after the Petersen was designed, and the state approved $4.1 million in changes, including additional outdoor lighting, an elaborate flagpole courtyard near the entrance and other site work that cost $372,911. More food stands and kitchens cost $2.7 million."

In fact, "DGS ended the construction phase by accepting an unfinished building with a leaking roof. Rather than holding the contractors liable for roof repairs, DGS entered into settlement agreements with the contractors, then attempted to shift the remaining costs to the university." The actual reality is, although the companies sued the state for not being compensated appropriately, because that's who hired them, Pitt was required by its contract with the state to pay any settlements and Pitt took over defense of those claims. In the end, Pitt won multiple lawsuits based on failures in things like the roof.

So I don't know where you are getting your info, but it is largely bad info if you believe Steve Pederson was mostly to blame for the cost overruns. Maybe some of them, but this is largely on government inefficiency.

And while it did create a kerfuffle in Harrisburg, and an investigation, it didn't do any lasting damage to Pitt as far as funding capital projects.

Much if not most of what was reported by the PG was wrong. That's because the suits were filed in Harrisburg in the Commonwealth Court.
It is safe to say that I didn't get my information from Jimmy Olsen, reporting for the PG.
In fact....none of it.
Point in fact. DGS had nothing...nothing...zero..zilch to do with 25 contractors. As I identify in my post, but you misstated, Prime Contractors (not merely contractors) were numerous. 25 contractors for a site like this is not unusual especially given the size. State law mandated then that each contractor have a Prime agreement with the Commonwealth...that was not DGS policy...it was state law. That gives you a 25 front war in a project...
Fast tracked indeed and because of re-engineering during construction, the problems are exacerbated.
As I wrote.. the claims are filed in the Commonwealth Court...if the PG has anyone in Harrisburg who knows or knew anything about design bid work with the Commonwealth, it is news to me.

 

[rpost3]

Fun fact:

The fundraising effort to renovate Pitt Stadium was launched right after they announced they were de-emphasizing football and firing Gottfried to hire Hackett.

 

[Revenge Of The Noise]

Fun fact:

The fundraising effort to renovate Pitt Stadium was launched right after they infamously castrated the football program and drove off Gottfried to hire Hackett.

Things really haven't changed much in the tone deafness area. I got a call from Pitt to donate the day after the 55 point basketball loss to Louisville.

 

[Revenge Of The Noise]

The Pete will be 15 this season. Another 15 years and its right around the lifespan of many areans/stadiums.

I think what may eventually happen one, two, three decades from now is that that a smaller, cozier arena is built somewhere else on campus (think GT, Xavier, Miami) and a new football stadium is put on the Pitt Stadium/Pete site.

I feel like Captain Obvious merely repeating, well, the obvious that improving the (FRIGGIN) product will produce better crowds regardless of where the stadium was and that the campus aspect is absolutely irrelevant.

In fact, with two equally lame 6-6 teams playing the same equally lame schedule, it's a guarantee that crowds would be WORSE at the on campus stadium (no matter how nice the urinals), due to the bigger hassle to get in and out of Oakland vs. the North side.

Incredibly, nobody seems to understand this, and just continue to ramble about the nonsense of how critical WHERE the stadium is, vs. the rotting garage being presented AT the stadium.

It's amusing, and redeems my feeling of intellectual supremacy over most here (which is what internet message boards are all about).

But I have a soft spot for those who are legitimately distraught over the arbitrary placement of the venue, no matter how baffling it is to ME that it is far more desirable to have a great TEAM to watch.

So I'll take another tack and point this out...

Improving the quality of the program to the tune of competing and winning championships and playoff runs at least semi regularly ... which has been my lonely cry in the wilderness here ... would not only irrefutably be the 'secret' to better crowds...

...but it would also be the BEST avenue to attracting the support ... the media approval, the political approval, the funding ... for an eventual on campus stadium.

The odds would still be high due to the sheer difficulty of the feat, and correspondingly, how much success and championships would have to be won over a stretch of years, to build the level of public adulation needed to secure that massive degree of financial and political support.

But the Steelers and Penguins are proof that such public adulation IS possible if you win enough ... and thus, pretty much ANY feat can be funded and pushed through. With enough popularity, anything is possible... no matter how preposterous the prospect.

A half billion dollar subway built under a river to the Steelers back door, when the airport or east end or north hills were far far far far better destinations? No problem.

For the Penguins, a brand new hockey arena for free AND handed the land of the old arena to develop however they please? Snap of the fingers.

So really, a stadium on the VA site or Panther Hollow or whatever, as dumb and unnecessary as I happen to think it is, would be equally easy to push through IF our administration got the thumbs and giant sticks out of their flabby asses and committed to championship level success.

You dreamers COULD have your precious stadium shoe horned into Oakland.

But it will NEVER HAPPEN with our teams as mediocre as they perpetually are now.

So those pining so hard for a stadium, i know it's weird advice ... but dammit, stop pining for it ... use your energies more intelligently ... and PUSH FOR A MASSIVELY IMPROVED PRODUCT FIRST.

Then, and only then, your fantasy MIGHT just come true.

You're welcome.

 

[rpost3]

Things really haven't changed much in the tone deafness area. I got a call from Pitt to donate the day after the 55 point basketball loss to Louisville.

1989
Less than 1 year after the Revenge Of The Nerds crowd announced they were de-emphasizing football and immediately after they canned Gottfried who just wrapped up a 7-3-1 season.

The idea they initially floated was a dome for the stadium in November of '89, citing light crowds during rainy Saturdays.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Much if not most of what was reported by the PG was wrong. That's because the suits were filed in Harrisburg in the Commonwealth Court.
It is safe to say that I didn't get my information from Jimmy Olsen, reporting for the PG.
In fact....none of it.
Point in fact. DGS had nothing...nothing...zero..zilch to do with 25 contractors. As I identify in my post, but you misstated, Prime Contractors (not merely contractors) were numerous. 25 contractors for a site like this is not unusual especially given the size. State law mandated then that each contractor have a Prime agreement with the Commonwealth...that was not DGS policy...it was state law. That gives you a 25 front war in a project...
Fast tracked indeed and because of re-engineering during construction, the problems are exacerbated.
As I wrote.. the claims are filed in the Commonwealth Court...if the PG has anyone in Harrisburg who knows or knew anything about design bid work with the Commonwealth, it is news to me.

Stupid state laws or not, and I don't disagree that stupid laws are also to blame (and all of that was covered in the PG reports), but the answer of who managed and ran the project remains a very simple one.

 

[Panther_in_Kentucky]

The host of Pitt Tonight, which has been a student late night format show the last couple of years, had an informal day hanging out with the Chancellor and new athletic director.

About half way through, over a Sorrento's pizza, he asks several topics that keep popping up on these message boards:

View embedded media

Pitt 2nd Class and Proud of it! Pitt is also run by the dumbest " smart people " to walk the face of the earth.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

The Pete will be 15 this season. Another 15 years and its right around the lifespan of many areans/stadiums.

I think what may eventually happen one, two, three decades from now is that that a smaller, cozier arena is built somewhere else on campus (think GT, Xavier, Miami) and a new football stadium is put on the Pitt Stadium/Pete site.

I feel like Captain Obvious merely repeating, well, the obvious that improving the (FRIGGIN) product will produce better crowds regardless of where the stadium was and that the campus aspect is absolutely irrelevant.

In fact, with two equally lame 6-6 teams playing the same equally lame schedule, it's a guarantee that crowds would be WORSE at the on campus stadium (no matter how nice the urinals), due to the bigger hassle to get in and out of Oakland vs. the North side.

Incredibly, nobody seems to understand this, and just continue to ramble about the nonsense of how critical WHERE the stadium is, vs. the rotting garage being presented AT the stadium.

It's amusing, and redeems my feeling of intellectual supremacy over most here (which is what internet message boards are all about).

But I have a soft spot for those who are legitimately distraught over the arbitrary placement of the venue, no matter how baffling it is to ME that it is far more desirable to have a great TEAM to watch.

So I'll take another tack and point this out...

Improving the quality of the program to the tune of competing and winning championships and playoff runs at least semi regularly ... which has been my lonely cry in the wilderness here ... would not only irrefutably be the 'secret' to better crowds...

...but it would also be the BEST avenue to attracting the support ... the media approval, the political approval, the funding ... for an eventual on campus stadium.

The odds would still be high due to the sheer difficulty of the feat, and correspondingly, how much success and championships would have to be won over a stretch of years, to build the level of public adulation needed to secure that massive degree of financial and political support.

But the Steelers and Penguins are proof that such public adulation IS possible if you win enough ... and thus, pretty much ANY feat can be funded and pushed through. With enough popularity, anything is possible... no matter how preposterous the prospect.

A half billion dollar subway built under a river to the Steelers back door, when the airport or east end or north hills were far far far far better destinations? No problem.

For the Penguins, a brand new hockey arena for free AND handed the land of the old arena to develop however they please? Snap of the fingers.

So really, a stadium on the VA site or Panther Hollow or whatever, as dumb and unnecessary as I happen to think it is, would be equally easy to push through IF our administration got the thumbs and giant sticks out of their flabby asses and committed to championship level success.

You dreamers COULD have your precious stadium shoe horned into Oakland.

But it will NEVER HAPPEN with our teams as mediocre as they perpetually are now.

So those pining so hard for a stadium, i know it's weird advice ... but dammit, stop pining for it ... use your energies more intelligently ... and PUSH FOR A MASSIVELY IMPROVED PRODUCT FIRST.

Then, and only then, your fantasy MIGHT just come true.

You're welcome.

The SIZE of our current stadium is a great hindrance to our program. 20K-30K empty yellows hurts recruiting. And please dont say, "just win and they will come." No they wont. Pitt is NOT and never will be a 70K seat program unless we're playing a ND, PSU, WVU, or a blue blood.

 

[Revenge Of The Noise]

The SIZE of our current stadium is a great hindrance to our program. 20K-30K empty yellows hurts recruiting. And please dont say, "just win and they will come." No they wont. Pitt is NOT and never will be a 70K seat program unless we're playing a ND, PSU, WVU, or a blue blood.

Any crowds of 50000 and up are perfectly fine in Heinz. And Pitt would easily get them, and much higher even, if we were consistent and relevant winners. It's when the teams stink and 20000 straggle in that you have a real problem... and you'd have that same problem at a on campus stadium too. Because we had just that! Does nobody remember the mid 90s? Trough urinals were not the cause of our empty seats.

The sight of some yellow seats isn't a problem. It's irrelevant. Quit letting child rapists dictate thinking on this issue. They can only consistently "win" the "attendance" game, so that's what they constantly play. Don't allow it.

 

[HailtoPitt]

The sight of some yellow seats isn't a problem. It's irrelevant.

Sorry, but it's a very big problem.

 

[Swervin27]

I love how revenge of the noise tells us that we just need to win more. Like this is something that we missed, that we and pitt just overlooked and now that it is brought to light, we can easily address this issue.

Thanks for that, now we will just get on that. Hey guys, I think we should just go ahead and win the acc this year, might as well try this strategy. Let's also just go ahead and win the national championship too. Steelers and pens do it all the time so let's do it too.

 

[HailtoPitt]

I love how revenge of the noise tells us that we just need to win more. Like this is something that we missed, that we and pitt just overlooked and now that it is brought to light, we can easily address this issue.

Thanks for that, now we will just get on that. Hey guys, I think we should just go ahead and win the acc this year, might as well try this strategy. Let's also just go ahead and win the national championship too. Steelers and pens do it all the time so let's do it too.

Now that we know it should be easy.

Winning isn't so much the problem unless it can be done consistently, which isn't going to happen.

The reality is that the stadium is way too big for our fanbase. We aren't likely to win consistently for decades to fill those seats, and even winning isn't likely to consistently fill the seats. People still aren't coming to watch Pitt take on Toledo.

The solution is a smaller venue and decades of consistent support from the administration

 

[Revenge Of The Noise]

Sorry, but it's a very big problem.

We'll have to disagree then.

 

[Revenge Of The Noise]

I love how revenge of the noise tells us that we just need to win more. Like this is something that we missed, that we and pitt just overlooked and now that it is brought to light, we can easily address this issue.

Thanks for that, now we will just get on that. Hey guys, I think we should just go ahead and win the acc this year, might as well try this strategy. Let's also just go ahead and win the national championship too. Steelers and pens do it all the time so let's do it too.

You can't guarantee winning, as the game gets played on the field/court/ice.

But stingy, neglectful, and/or incompetent administration is a 99% guarantee you WON'T win. And this is absolutely why Pitt doesn't win... subsequently why those ghastly horrible vomit inducing yellow seats that traumatize everyone so, show so offensively through.

Amateurish coaching, overmatched players, and soul crushing losses, somehow aren't offensive ... but somehow yellow seats in your line of vision IS incredibly offensive ... plus losing out on the 'thrill' of the utter paralysis that a venue in Oakland causes ...what a peculiar "fan"base.

 

[Swervin27]

You can't guarantee winning, as the game gets played on the field/court/ice.

But stingy, neglectful, and/or incompetent administration is a 99% guarantee you WON'T win. And this is absolutely why Pitt doesn't win... subsequently why those ghastly horrible vomit inducing yellow seats that traumatize everyone so, show so offensively through.

Amateurish coaching, overmatched players, and soul crushing losses, somehow aren't offensive ... but somehow yellow seats in your line of vision IS incredibly offensive ... plus losing out on the 'thrill' of the utter paralysis that a venue in Oakland causes ...what a peculiar "fan"base.

soul crushing losses offends me. poor coaching hires and inept athletic dept leadership offends me, zero success and continued failures with one lady from kaufmanns to handle alumni donations tor two decades offends me, having to drive into Oakland to buy a decent script sweatshirt offends me, going to dicks or other sporting goods stores and seeing racks of psu, wvu, osu, Michigan gear and nothing pitt affiliated offends me, this all offends me. I agree, it's offensive..

Hey, I don't mind the crowds to be honest. i'll get hung up on here for saying this but I enjoy the extra leg room at some of these games. im up in the 500s, on the 30-35 yard line, on the shady side, great sight lines, not bumping knees/elbows with a stranger, no one telling me to sit down, short lines to take a leak. I got no problems with this at all. I like the 60k game against the eers, nits, ND every once in awhile but give me a relaxed, casual environment against UVA, Syracuse, any day of the week.

 

[Revenge Of The Noise]

soul crushing losses offends me. poor coaching hires and inept athletic dept leadership offends me, zero success and continued failures with one lady from kaufmanns to handle alumni donations tor two decades offends me, having to drive into Oakland to buy a decent script sweatshirt offends me, going to dicks or other sporting goods stores and seeing racks of psu, wvu, osu, Michigan gear and nothing pitt affiliated offends me, this all offends me. I agree, it's offensive..

Hey, I don't mind the crowds to be honest. i'll get hung up on here for saying this but I enjoy the extra leg room at some of these games. im up in the 500s, on the 30-35 yard line, on the shady side, great sight lines, not bumping knees/elbows with a stranger, no one telling me to sit down, short lines to take a leak. I got no problems with this at all. I like the 60k game against the eers, nits, ND every once in awhile but give me a relaxed, casual environment against UVA, Syracuse, any day of the week.

My points above are that our "attendance problem" is closer to a "fake news" issue created by our enemies. Pitt fans should "resist".

For as mediocre overall product that has been provided, the attendance at Heinz has been solid... better than the administration deserves, for sure.

Those who complain about "only" 45000 showing for a 5-5 Pitt playing a 2-8 Syracuse with no meaningful stakes (sorry, eligibility for the Little Caesar's Bowl isn't very dramatic) have me shake my head. All things considered that's a fine crowd. And it wouldn't be any larger in an on campus stadium. Given the gridlock of Oakland, it's been proven FEWER will come out for such a game.

In the embarrassingly few times we've been in position to play a big home game with some fairly genuine stakes at Heinz, the crowds have been there. There just haven't been nearly enough of them.

The basketball team has started to stink in the last couple years and the crowds are diminishing as a result. Yet the arena is on campus. How could that be?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

soul crushing losses offends me. poor coaching hires and inept athletic dept leadership offends me, zero success and continued failures with one lady from kaufmanns to handle alumni donations tor two decades offends me, having to drive into Oakland to buy a decent script sweatshirt offends me, going to dicks or other sporting goods stores and seeing racks of psu, wvu, osu, Michigan gear and nothing pitt affiliated offends me, this all offends me. I agree, it's offensive..

Hey, I don't mind the crowds to be honest. i'll get hung up on here for saying this but I enjoy the extra leg room at some of these games. im up in the 500s, on the 30-35 yard line, on the shady side, great sight lines, not bumping knees/elbows with a stranger, no one telling me to sit down, short lines to take a leak. I got no problems with this at all. I like the 60k game against the eers, nits, ND every once in awhile but give me a relaxed, casual environment against UVA, Syracuse, any day of the week.

My points above are that our "attendance problem" is closer to a "fake news" issue created by our enemies. Pitt fans should "resist".

For as mediocre overall product that has been provided, the attendance at Heinz has been solid... better than the administration deserves, for sure.

Those who complain about "only" 45000 showing for a 5-5 Pitt playing a 2-8 Syracuse with no meaningful stakes (sorry, eligibility for the Little Caesar's Bowl isn't very dramatic) have me shake my head. All things considered that's a fine crowd. And it wouldn't be any larger in an on campus stadium. Given the gridlock of Oakland, it's been proven FEWER will come out for such a game.

In the embarrassingly few times we've been in position to play a big home game with some fairly genuine stakes at Heinz, the crowds have been there. There just haven't been nearly enough of them.

The basketball team has started to stink in the last couple years and the crowds are diminishing as a result. Yet the arena is on campus. How could that be?

It pains me when people don't understand what "fake news is." Fake news is literally FAKE news. The Dude is "fake news." Its purposely false information. Its like an article saying Pitt to the Big Ten is imminent or Jordan Whithead to transfer. Its legitimately "fake." An article about Pitt attendance issues or the Russia investigation isn't "fake news." Those are actual news stories but probably slanted in one way.

As far as Pitt basketball goes, Pitt is not a 12,500 seat program. In the glory days, in the best of times, with everything going for us (including terrible Pens teams and no NHL season one year), we filled it for just the Big East games and maybe got 8000-9000 for the OOCs. Pitt is NEVER going to have a run like that again EVER EVER EVER. Pitt basketball is an 8K-9K seat program. Maybe I'd put 10K in there but 12,500 is too many.

That said the empty blues dont look near as bad as the empty yellows. Pitt football is a max 50K program unless its an event game. If last year's team won the NC and this year's team was preseason #1, you'd have like 58K for YSU and 49K for Rice and 40K for games when the weather got cold. Pitt's fanbase is much more similar to TCU, Baylor, GT, and Stanford than land grants.

You are kidding yourself if you dont think empty yellows damage this program. It gives off a "minor league" feel to recruits and it kills the gameday environment when no one is sitting next to you, in front of you, or behind you. One of the reasons the gameday environment sucks so bad is because people are too comfortable, relaxed, and spread out. Fans need to feed off each other.

 

[Swervin27]

You are kidding yourself if you dont think empty yellows damage this program. It gives off a "minor league" feel to recruits and it kills the gameday environment when no one is sitting next to you, in front of you, or behind you. One of the reasons the gameday environment sucks so bad is because people are too comfortable, relaxed, and spread out. Fans need to feed off each other.

I don't need to feed off s***. count me as one that enjoys the relaxed ambience. if I want a guy screaming in my ear and rubbing elbows with me in a cramped space, i'll go to a steeler game. Relax on the belly-aching of yellow seats, go to the game and have fun. you guys get soo damn worked up about nonsense. if it bothers you soo much to the point where you have to comment on it daily, find a new hobby.

 

[Revenge Of The Noise]

My point isn't the "desirability" of the on campus stadium. In a perfect world sure that'd be nice i guess. It's the point... the truth... that a desirable PRODUCT is the key to big CROWDS. An on campus stadiums will be...HAS been... just as empty, if not far more so, than Heinz if the product stinks. Conversely if the team is good enough, fans including students will tolerate nearly any hardship or distance to get there to see it.

When I was finishing up a masters at Pitt and still living in Oakland, it coincided with the first couple years of Star Lake (or whatever its called this week) opening. It happened to get the hottest music acts, but that dump was particularly difficult if you had no car and lived in a south Oakland dive! The school wasn't running complimentary buses out there and back, i'll tell you that.

Yet at least 4 different occasions in about a 1.5 year period, myself and several of my friends who really wanted to see acts playing there (I'm too embarrassed now to say what they were), did the necessary maneuvering, negotiating, scratching and clawing to find our way there and back. It was a colossal PITA but we gladly did it. Not to mention finding our way to Penguin games, Steelers, Strip district clubs (also the rage at the time). Or when a buddy had his giant St Pats Day blowout party ... a staggering affair of debauchery ... But in freaking Uniontown PA! But we found ways ... because each time, the product was desirable!

Meanwhile i recall Rusted Root (maybe someone else) playing some kind of free gig in Oakland or in Schenley park or such ... details hazy... But I didn't like Rusted Root (or whoever it was in this case) so even though the event was basically in my own back yard, i stayed away.

Thus ends yet another life's lesson from Uncle Noise.

 

[Swervin27]

My point isn't the "desirability" of the on campus stadium. In a perfect world sure that'd be nice i guess. It's the point... the truth... that a desirable PRODUCT is the key to big CROWDS. An on campus stadiums will be...HAS been... just as empty, if not far more so, than Heinz if the product stinks. Conversely if the team is good enough, fans including students will tolerate nearly any hardship or distance to get there to see it.

When I was finishing up a masters at Pitt and still living in Oakland, it coincided with the first couple years of Star Lake (or whatever its called this week) opening. It happened to get the hottest music acts, but that dump was particularly difficult if you had no car and lived in a south Oakland dive! The school wasn't running complimentary buses out there and back, i'll tell you that.

Yet at least 4 different occasions in about a 1.5 year period, myself and several of my friends who really wanted to see acts playing there (I'm too embarrassed now to say what they were), did the necessary maneuvering, negotiating, scratching and clawing to find our way there and back. It was a colossal PITA but we gladly did it. Not to mention finding our way to Penguin games, Steelers, Strip district clubs (also the rage at the time). Or when a buddy had his giant St Pats Day blowout party ... a staggering affair of debauchery ... But in freaking Uniontown PA! But we found ways ... because each time, the product was desirable!

Meanwhile i recall Rusted Root (maybe someone else) playing some kind of free gig in Oakland or in Schenley park or such ... details hazy... But I didn't like Rusted Root (or whoever it was in this case) so even though the event was basically in my own back yard, i stayed away.

Thus ends yet another life's lesson from Uncle Noise.

I loved going to shows at starlake. more than once, I've found myself at the end of a concert at starlake, my ride home gone and without money (no cell phones in those days). Some how, I always found a way home. my buddy had a pickup truck so we'd all ride out to these shows in high school in back of his truck, sitting on 8 or 9 cases of Milwaukee's best, on Rt. 50 to avoid getting arrested and the driver, our designated driver, would get so blasted, he'd just leave in the middle of the concert and not tell us. did this like 2 or 3 times.

 

[TIGER-PAUL]

star lake was/is the worst, if you're actually interested in seeing/hearing the bands.

 

[Swervin27]

star lake was/is the worst, if you're actually interested in seeing/hearing the bands.

I love the venue, or loved it in the day. moreso for the pre tailgating festivities. never really paid attention to the acoustics. sat in the actual seats section a few times, buffet, steve miller shows, bnl, sounded good to me.. I was probably 20 drinks in though so maybe not the best judge.

THe worst venue I've experienced was that tent they called an amphitheatre in station square for a short time. Saw everclear there one year, basically a tent over a parking lot. such a pitiful makeshift venue.

 

[Delpanther]

Fun fact:

The fundraising effort to renovate Pitt Stadium was launched right after they announced they were de-emphasizing football and firing Gottfried to hire Hackett.

Pitt administration.....and they wonder why Pitt alums don't give to athletics. A decade earlier they ran the best FB coach in the country out of town....a decade later they gave us the Heyward/Graham/ Chryst merry go round. Then they hire Stallings . ...

 

[HailtoPitt]

Fun fact:

The fundraising effort to renovate Pitt Stadium was launched right after they announced they were de-emphasizing football and firing Gottfried to hire Hackett.

What else do you know if that fundraising effort?

 

[rpost3]

What else do you know if that fundraising effort?

Not much other than it was at least the 4th time that the Eggheads in the Cathedral of Learning (as Beano famously used to call them) decided to show the jocks who's boss and then somehow summon the balls to ask the fans for athletic donations.

 

[CorsosRevenge]

A Stanley Cup champ playing a playoff game in a series one way from the Finals would have gotten 50,000 if they had the capacity that night.

Just like 2009 Pitt - Cincy game being played for the Big East title and Orange Bowl, in horrible weather, was basically SRO. That day for that game, we could have filled 100,000 seats.

IMPROVE THE FRIGGIN PRODUCT.

That game was 5,000 under capacity easily.

 

[Swervin27]

That game was 5,000 under capacity easily.

that crowd was as good as you'll ever get for pitt. it will never surpass that day with crowd, noise, enthusiasm. when I think of the best pitt environment I've ever been too, that game stands alone. Until the end of course..

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

A Stanley Cup champ playing a playoff game in a series one way from the Finals would have gotten 50,000 if they had the capacity that night.

Just like 2009 Pitt - Cincy game being played for the Big East title and Orange Bowl, in horrible weather, was basically SRO. That day for that game, we could have filled 100,000 seats.

IMPROVE THE FRIGGIN PRODUCT.

That game was 5,000 under capacity easily.

No, it sold out but needed about 8K Cincy fans to do it and it only sold out less than 24 hours before kick.

Thing is, that game is what a lot of people point to. A conference championship game and Sugar Bowl berth on the line.....and only 48K regular Pitt fans showed up (along with 9500 students).

With the majority of ACC teams not traveling well, there's simply far too many seats at Heinz. Even if Pitt is 8-0 and ranked #5, you're looking at a crowd maybe 45K regular Pitt fans, 5K students, and 100 GT fans.

 

[CorsosRevenge]

Sold out or not the stadium was 5,000
Under capacity. Period. Let's not pull the Steve Pederson ploy of counting tickets sold versus asses in seats.

 

[Las Panteras]

I feel like Captain Obvious merely repeating, well, the obvious that improving the (FRIGGIN) product will produce better crowds regardless of where the stadium was and that the campus aspect is absolutely irrelevant.

In fact, with two equally lame 6-6 teams playing the same equally lame schedule, it's a guarantee that crowds would be WORSE at the on campus stadium (no matter how nice the urinals), due to the bigger hassle to get in and out of Oakland vs. the North side.

Incredibly, nobody seems to understand this, and just continue to ramble about the nonsense of how critical WHERE the stadium is, vs. the rotting garage being presented AT the stadium.

It's amusing, and redeems my feeling of intellectual supremacy over most here (which is what internet message boards are all about).

But I have a soft spot for those who are legitimately distraught over the arbitrary placement of the venue, no matter how baffling it is to ME that it is far more desirable to have a great TEAM to watch.

So I'll take another tack and point this out...

Improving the quality of the program to the tune of competing and winning championships and playoff runs at least semi regularly ... which has been my lonely cry in the wilderness here ... would not only irrefutably be the 'secret' to better crowds...

...but it would also be the BEST avenue to attracting the support ... the media approval, the political approval, the funding ... for an eventual on campus stadium.

The odds would still be high due to the sheer difficulty of the feat, and correspondingly, how much success and championships would have to be won over a stretch of years, to build the level of public adulation needed to secure that massive degree of financial and political support.

But the Steelers and Penguins are proof that such public adulation IS possible if you win enough ... and thus, pretty much ANY feat can be funded and pushed through. With enough popularity, anything is possible... no matter how preposterous the prospect.

A half billion dollar subway built under a river to the Steelers back door, when the airport or east end or north hills were far far far far better destinations? No problem.

For the Penguins, a brand new hockey arena for free AND handed the land of the old arena to develop however they please? Snap of the fingers.

So really, a stadium on the VA site or Panther Hollow or whatever, as dumb and unnecessary as I happen to think it is, would be equally easy to push through IF our administration got the thumbs and giant sticks out of their flabby asses and committed to championship level success.

You dreamers COULD have your precious stadium shoe horned into Oakland.

But it will NEVER HAPPEN with our teams as mediocre as they perpetually are now.

So those pining so hard for a stadium, i know it's weird advice ... but dammit, stop pining for it ... use your energies more intelligently ... and PUSH FOR A MASSIVELY IMPROVED PRODUCT FIRST.

Then, and only then, your fantasy MIGHT just come true.

You're welcome.

All future posts regarding a stadium should be digitally blocked from this or any future threads.

This is the best post on this subject that will ever grace this or any other message board devoted to pitt athletics.

Revenge......it is impossible to better articulate the current state of affairs regarding this subject than you have put forth here.

Truly outstanding........

 

[Swervin27]

All future posts regarding a stadium should be digitally blocked from this or any future threads.

This is the best post on this subject that will ever grace this or any other message board devoted to pitt athletics.

Revenge......it is impossible to better articulate the current state of affairs regarding this subject than you have put forth here.

Truly outstanding........

You honestly think his take of "pitt should win more" is the end-all of these stadium threads?

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Sold out or not the stadium was 5,000
Under capacity. Period. Let's not pull the Steve Pederson ploy of counting tickets sold versus asses in seats.

The odd thing about that sold out crowd was that a couple thousand people apparently bought the worst tickets in the house, the upper corner end zone seats, in the days leading up to the game and then they ALL decided to not show up, thus leaving rows and rows of empty seats at the top of several sections.

I always wondered why so many people would buy tickets to a game right before kickoff like that and then all decide not to actually go to the game. Seems odd to me, but it must have happened, because the game was sold out.

 

[Revenge Of The Noise]

You honestly think his take of "pitt should win more" is the end-all of these stadium threads?

Yes.

Mr. Peak, lock this thread. I've won it .... yet again.

 

[Swervin27]

Yes.

Mr. Peak, lock this thread. I've won it .... yet again.

To quote the great jake Taylor, "there is only one thing left to do... win the whole f'ing thing."

 

[Panther_in_Kentucky]

I don't need to feed off s***. count me as one that enjoys the relaxed ambience. if I want a guy screaming in my ear and rubbing elbows with me in a cramped space, i'll go to a steeler game. Relax on the belly-aching of yellow seats, go to the game and have fun. you guys get soo damn worked up about nonsense. if it bothers you soo much to the point where you have to comment on it daily, find a new hobby.

Guess what? A lot of former Pitt fans have done just that. Great advice. Maybe Pitt can get down to no fans ! Who needs them.