Round 1 Game 3: Sean Miller Fan vs. Joe the Panther Fan

SMF vs. Joe the Panther Fan

  • Sean Miller Fan

    Votes: 28 39.4%
  • Joe the Panther Fan

    Votes: 43 60.6%

  • Total voters
    71
  • Poll closed .

DT_PITT

Lair Hall of Famer
Gold Member
Jul 17, 2001
38,434
17,678
113
But of course that's also based on the teams as well as the individuals. A guy on a top level team is going to get a lot more consideration than a guy on a team that had just moved up from the Eastern Eight to the big time.

Also, even with that Vaughan actually was an honorable mention all American his senior season.

But not even first team All-Big East.

Don't get me wrong. I loved Clyde. I was a huge Pitt Hoops fan in high school (no less than I am now) and I Clyde was my favorite. But I just think Sam was a little bit better -- his highest level was higher than Clyde's. Love's them both of course.
 

Joe the Panther Fan

All P I T T !
Jul 6, 2001
32,011
13,071
113
But not even first team All-Big East.


Yeah, but again, team circumstances.

For instance Vaughan wasn't named first team all Eastern Eight as a sophomore when he may have been the best player in the league because of people being pissed off that Pitt was leaving the conference. Of course he and the team kind of took that out on everyone in the conference tournament, so there is that.
 

Ski11585

Athletic Director
Gold Member
Oct 25, 2008
18,874
10,223
113
If you had to play a season or tournament, you take Peterson and Gant over Adams and Blount. The NBA would laugh in your face as both were drafted and Peterson and Gant weren't even thought of. I realize that that potential had a lot to do with that but still. Peterson was really good as a senior but was also on a bad team. Gant, I never thought was any good.

You're being deliberately obstinate again. What they did in the NBA is 100% irrelevant to the draft and the tournament.
 

Joe the Panther Fan

All P I T T !
Jul 6, 2001
32,011
13,071
113
And to kind of show what I am talking about, as a junior Vaughan led the Big East in scoring, 2.0 ppg better than some dude named Chris Mullins, and was third in the league in rebounding, 1.0 rpg behind this guy named Pat Ewing. And all that got him was third team all conference.

As a senior he was second in the conference in scoring behind Mullins and was thrid in rebounding behind Otis Thorpe and Patrick Ewing, and all that got him was second team all conference. A Pitt player wasn't getting voted first team all conference in those years no matter what they did.
 

Bethlehemjohn

Athletic Director
Gold Member
Jul 6, 2001
15,529
3,370
113
This is how I look at it:

You get the choice of Steven Adams, Mark Blount, Jaime Peterson, and Chris Gant at the end of their best season at Pitt to play a season, a tournament, whatever. Who you taking?

That would be:

1. Adams
2. Blount
3. Peterson
4. Gant

There is no denying Peterson had a really good senior year but literally nobody would have agreed he was a better basketball player than Freshman Adams. Not talking about potential. Right then and there.
You are smoking something as usual. Petersen was plain and simple just a much better basketball player as a Senior than Adams was as a Freshman and it wasn't very close. It does not matter that Adams is now in the NBA and Petersen never played in the NBA.
 

Bethlehemjohn

Athletic Director
Gold Member
Jul 6, 2001
15,529
3,370
113
If you had to play a season or tournament, you take Peterson and Gant over Adams and Blount. The NBA would laugh in your face as both were drafted and Peterson and Gant weren't even thought of. I realize that that potential had a lot to do with that but still. Peterson was really good as a senior but was also on a bad team. Gant, I never thought was any good.
You still choose to blow off the rules of this competition. We aren't talking potential, we aren't talking about what the NBA says, we are talking about their best year as a Pitt player. Very simply, Petersen was much better than Adams was as a Frosh.
 

DT_PITT

Lair Hall of Famer
Gold Member
Jul 17, 2001
38,434
17,678
113
And to kind of show what I am talking about, as a junior Vaughan led the Big East in scoring, 2.0 ppg better than some dude named Chris Mullins, and was third in the league in rebounding, 1.0 rpg behind this guy named Pat Ewing. And all that got him was third team all conference.

As a senior he was second in the conference in scoring behind Mullins and was thrid in rebounding behind Otis Thorpe and Patrick Ewing, and all that got him was second team all conference. A Pitt player wasn't getting voted first team all conference in those years no matter what they did.

But Chris Mullen and Patrick Ewing were MUCH better players. So there's that.

I mean ... Quincy Douby averaged 25 PPG to lead the Big East.

Bryant Matthews averaged 22.1 PPG to lead the Big East.

Jeremy Hazell was second one year at 22.7.

MarShon Brooks averaged 24.6 to lead the Big East.

Sam Young was better than all those guys. And he was better than Clyde too.
 

SoufOaklin4Life

Lair Hall of Famer
Jan 7, 2004
75,715
14,114
113
Another State of Mind
You still choose to blow off the rules of this competition. We aren't talking potential, we aren't talking about what the NBA says, we are talking about their best year as a Pitt player. Very simply, Petersen was much better than Adams was as a Frosh.
Which at this Point is clearly intentional
As someone with no skin in the game
He should be forfeited
 

Bethlehemjohn

Athletic Director
Gold Member
Jul 6, 2001
15,529
3,370
113
And to kind of show what I am talking about, as a junior Vaughan led the Big East in scoring, 2.0 ppg better than some dude named Chris Mullins, and was third in the league in rebounding, 1.0 rpg behind this guy named Pat Ewing. And all that got him was third team all conference.

As a senior he was second in the conference in scoring behind Mullins and was thrid in rebounding behind Otis Thorpe and Patrick Ewing, and all that got him was second team all conference. A Pitt player wasn't getting voted first team all conference in those years no matter what they did.
You are getting screwed in this vote the same as I did and it is because nobody on here values Peteresen for how good he was his Senior year.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Joe the Panther Fan

Joe the Panther Fan

All P I T T !
Jul 6, 2001
32,011
13,071
113
Petersen was plain and simple just a much better basketball player as a Senior than Adams was as a Freshman and it wasn't very close.


Peterson was second team all Big East that season. I can't remember, maybe SMF can tell us all which all Big East team Adams was on his year at Pitt.
 

Ski11585

Athletic Director
Gold Member
Oct 25, 2008
18,874
10,223
113
Vaughan was better than all those guys too. And he was better than Sam.

Ski is gonna be crushed when he sees this blasphemy ;):D

giphy.gif
 

DT_PITT

Lair Hall of Famer
Gold Member
Jul 17, 2001
38,434
17,678
113
i am pretty sure the Dribbles didn't hurt your cause! Even before the voting started for that, you said that at least 5 teams were better than yours.

Actually what I said was that there 3 that looked better that the others (PittMBA was one of them -- can't remember the other two). I said I was in the next group of about 5-6. That's were I thought your team was as well. Then the rest were below that.

It's funny, but now that I look at PIttMBA's team, they don't look so good as I first thought.

Anyway ... you were telling me my team wasn't very good! LOL!

Doubt if writing "dribbles" helped much though. Especially not on the pay board.
 

CougarClaws

Head Coach
Gold Member
Mar 12, 2005
12,462
9,341
113
You list is completely wrong. Peterson was absolutely clearly the best of the four in the seasons in question. It's not even close. Gant was the second best, and again, I'm not sure it's even close. You simply cannot separate the players they were at Pitt with the players that they would become. As they were at Pitt Adams might be the worst of the four, and yet somehow you think he's the best. Although to be honest I think that Adams was better than Blount, so there is that.

1) Peterson
Big gap
2) Gant
Gap
3) Adams
4) Blount

Your two guys averaged 16.3 and 10.4. My two averaged 23.9 and 16.8. Think about that. My guys average more REBOUNDS per game than your guys did points.

I am entertained.
 

Bethlehemjohn

Athletic Director
Gold Member
Jul 6, 2001
15,529
3,370
113
Actually what I said was that there 3 that looked better that the others (PittMBA was one of them -- can't remember the other two). I said I was in the next group of about 5-6. That's were I thought your team was as well. Then the rest were below that.

It's funny, but now that I look at PIttMBA's team, they don't look so good as I first thought.

Anyway ... you were telling me my team wasn't very good! LOL!

Doubt if writing "dribbles" helped much though. Especially not on the pay board.
Ok, you still didn't feel that you had at least a top 3 team and you thought mine was in the next group with you.

So for some reason or other, yours won the whole enchilada and mine was eliminated in the "Dayton" round!
 

Sean Miller Fan

Lair Hall of Famer
Oct 30, 2001
44,030
12,613
113
You are getting screwed in this vote the same as I did and it is because nobody on here values Peteresen for how good he was his Senior year.

We are talking about which players would help teams win the most games. Peterson was very good on bad team as a senior. Adams was decent on a team he didn't have to do a lot for. But I guarantee that every single college basketball coach would have selected FR Adams over SR Peterson if they were allowed a free agent to play in some random tournament. Adams was the better overall player.

I'm not denying that Peterson had better stats but stats don't tell the whole story.
 

Bethlehemjohn

Athletic Director
Gold Member
Jul 6, 2001
15,529
3,370
113
We are talking about which players would help teams win the most games. Peterson was very good on bad team as a senior. Adams was decent on a team he didn't have to do a lot for. But I guarantee that every single college basketball coach would have selected FR Adams over SR Peterson if they were allowed a free agent to play in some random tournament. Adams was the better overall player.

I'm not denying that Peterson had better stats but stats don't tell the whole story.
So the fact the Petersen was 2nd team all BE and Adams was nowhere to be seen means nothing? I agree that stats don't always tell the complete story, but Petersen was a very good player that year. My guess is that if you put Petersen as a Senior on the team that Adams was a Frosh for, Petersen would have easily put up better numbers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ski11585

CougarClaws

Head Coach
Gold Member
Mar 12, 2005
12,462
9,341
113
But Chris Mullen and Patrick Ewing were MUCH better players. So there's that.

I mean ... Quincy Douby averaged 25 PPG to lead the Big East.

Bryant Matthews averaged 22.1 PPG to lead the Big East.

Jeremy Hazell was second one year at 22.7.

MarShon Brooks averaged 24.6 to lead the Big East.

Sam Young was better than all those guys. And he was better than Clyde too.
You think Clyde is that much better?

Clyde was such a clutch and diverse scorer. And the rebounding for that League at that time was just insane.

Clyde Vaughn was so so good.
 

Joe the Panther Fan

All P I T T !
Jul 6, 2001
32,011
13,071
113
Clyde was such a clutch and diverse scorer. And the rebounding for that League at that time was just insane.

Clyde Vaughn was so so good.


This.

Vaughan is the best scorer in this "league". He isn't the best rebounder, but he's on the short list. While playing the three. There are just way too many people here who never saw him play, so he's easy for them to dismiss.

It's similar to the Peterson - Adams debate. The only people who can think Adams was a better college basketball player are people who didn't see Peterson play. Or they did, but they don't know basketball.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CougarClaws

Sean Miller Fan

Lair Hall of Famer
Oct 30, 2001
44,030
12,613
113
This.

Vaughan is the best scorer in this "league". He isn't the best rebounder, but he's on the short list. While playing the three. There are just way too many people here who never saw him play, so he's easy for them to dismiss.

It's similar to the Peterson - Adams debate. The only people who can think Adams was a better college basketball player are people who didn't see Peterson play. Or they did, but they don't know basketball.

I saw Peterson play. He had a really good senior year.

Let me ask you this. If you asked Calipari, Coach K, Capel, etc. who they would rather have for 1 season or 1 tournament? Do they take Senior Peterson or Freshman Adams? There's your answer. SMF knows basketball.

Miller is better than Robinson
Benjamin is better than Thomas
Vaughn played in a different era when basketball players werent as talented but even if we dont consider that, he and Young are very close.
It really comes down to the frontcourt. You have 2 guys who had better stats but were not better overall basketball players at Pitt than my 2. There isn't 1 basketball coach out there who would take Peterson or Gant as seniors over Adams as a FR or Blount as a SO
 

Fk_Pitt

Lair Hall of Famer
Gold Member
Dec 3, 2007
36,274
24,440
113
We are talking about which players would help teams win the most games. Peterson was very good on bad team as a senior. Adams was decent on a team he didn't have to do a lot for. But I guarantee that every single college basketball coach would have selected FR Adams over SR Peterson if they were allowed a free agent to play in some random tournament. Adams was the better overall player.

I'm not denying that Peterson had better stats but stats don't tell the whole story.
You are all over the place with your argument. We were all underwhelmed with Steve’s minutes when he was here. And why was that? Because he was a frosh who Jamie couldn’t depend on for additional minutes. Why is it that you talk down freshman drafted by other Lair members to make your arguments, but talk up your own?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ski11585

Sean Miller Fan

Lair Hall of Famer
Oct 30, 2001
44,030
12,613
113
You are all over the place with your argument. We were all underwhelmed with Steve’s minutes when he was here. And why was that? Because he was a frosh who Jamie couldn’t depend on for additional minutes. Why is it that you talk down freshman drafted by other Lair members to make your arguments, but talk up your own?

I think its pretty evident that Jamie held him back
 

Ski11585

Athletic Director
Gold Member
Oct 25, 2008
18,874
10,223
113
I think its pretty evident that Jamie held him back

Based on what. Show us you know basketball by presenting an actual argument.

We all know you won’t. Because you can’t. You just make declarative statements with no support and then tout your basketball knowledge.
 

DT_PITT

Lair Hall of Famer
Gold Member
Jul 17, 2001
38,434
17,678
113
Clyde was such a clutch and diverse scorer. And the rebounding for that League at that time was just insane.

Clyde Vaughn was so so good.[/QUOTE

I like Clyde a great deal. But I don't think he's at all as superlative to Sam Young as you are suggesting.
 

Fk_Pitt

Lair Hall of Famer
Gold Member
Dec 3, 2007
36,274
24,440
113
I think its pretty evident that Jamie held him back
Hey I’ve made that argument through the years and I’ve had plenty of lair members tell me I was wrong. So at the end of the day, all we can go on was the raw Steven adams that we saw here. And that Steven Adams would not outperform plenty of other frontcourt players in this league, including the ones in this match up.
 

Fk_Pitt

Lair Hall of Famer
Gold Member
Dec 3, 2007
36,274
24,440
113
That's a change in your tune. Late in his freshman year, you proclaimed he was nowhere near ready for the NBA. Now you are proclaiming something different just for your fantasy team?
Because SMF is a better coach than Jamie.