Some Saturday Night Thoughts on Pitt Hoops & Other Dribbles ...

[thebadby2]

I have always been a very strong JD supporter and I truly hope he can get his mojo back, because relative to the ceasepool he swims in, he does things the "right way."

But, he has been spinning out for a while now, and people want to look for simple answers, it pre-dates the ACC agreement.

He lost his flow when he did what we ALL wanted him to do, recruit more "talented" guys. The program started its slide when Dante Taylor didn't pan, followed by Birch bailing. He got a major kick to the nads when Adams went back home after his frosh season and never came back. Had he had Adams just one more year with Lamar, maybe that team makes a deep run in the NCAAs that would have changed the program's a arc. His under recruiting quality/talent at guard caught up to him over the last five years now along with his spinning out on big men.

Perhaps his fatal blow was Slice bolting for Kentucky. The only real positive vibe the program had was during that period where Slice was on board, the got Heron and Rowan committed. Maybe they lose Rowan either way, but they probably still would have Heron in the pocket and not had to transition to another assistant in Slice. It isn't saying Slice is the end all be all, but for the Pitt program he is a big deal, and we have seen a pretty bad string of recruiting failures since.

All this said, relative to the program he coaches at, which is not a super elite program like Kentucky, UCLA, NC, what he has done is significant enough that he has to be given time to work it out. It doesn't look good, but it has to play out one way or another possibly for a few more seasons at least.

You never want a down period to be extended, if that is the case, but it is about the next hire regardless. They could part ways with him today and if they make a bad hire it won't make things any better. Even if they do it the process right like they did with Nards, it just could not work out, like a Williard, who was one of the two or three most well regarded hires at that time.

Good post. It continues to be very simple IMO--we need the right kind and combination of players. That doesn't mean a bunch of H.S. All-Americans, but it does mean kids with some talent and toughness. The one time I think we legitimately had the right kind and combo of players at the same time, that, we came within a hair of the final four. More than anything, I think we need to add better guards, guys who can handle, shoot, drive, and defend. One true PG and a bunch of these "combo" guys that JD has always liked is not working. Every team needs at least 2 true primary ballhandlers, and the 2 guard HAS to be a scorer.

I am a Dixon supporter and have been since he was a candidate to replace Howland--I'm a big believer in continuity when you have a successful program. That isn't going to change anytime soon. However, and I've been like a broken record on this, he HAS to turn his full effort and attention to building a team the right way. Some posters are suggesting that his recruiting downfall has been chasing the top 100 kids. Maybe that has had something to do with it, but in case anyone hasn't noticed, we are missing badly on most of the 100-200 kids we've targeted as well. Something is wrong there. It needs to be fixed. And blaming the assistants is useless--it's Jamie's program. HE needs to fix it. If that means getting a better recruiting staff, then that;s his responsibility. And I'm not sure how personally involved he is in recruiting some of these kids, he's a low profile guy, but he needs to be heavily involved on a personal level with his recruiting. It's his job before anyone else's. It's his program, not his staff's.

 

[Jeffburgh]

Good post. It continues to be very simple IMO--we need the right kind and combination of players. That doesn't mean a bunch of H.S. All-Americans, but it does mean kids with some talent and toughness. The one time I think we legitimately had the right kind and combo of players at the same time, that, we came within a hair of the final four. More than anything, I think we need to add better guards, guys who can handle, shoot, drive, and defend. One true PG and a bunch of these "combo" guys that JD has always liked is not working. Every team needs at least 2 true primary ballhandlers, and the 2 guard HAS to be a scorer.

I am a Dixon supporter and have been since he was a candidate to replace Howland--I'm a big believer in continuity when you have a successful program. That isn't going to change anytime soon. However, and I've been like a broken record on this, he HAS to turn his full effort and attention to building a team the right way. Some posters are suggesting that his recruiting downfall has been chasing the top 100 kids. Maybe that has had something to do with it, but in case anyone hasn't noticed, we are missing badly on most of the 100-200 kids we've targeted as well. Something is wrong there. It needs to be fixed. And blaming the assistants is useless--it's Jamie's program. HE needs to fix it. If that means getting a better recruiting staff, then that;s his responsibility. And I'm not sure how personally involved he is in recruiting some of these kids, he's a low profile guy, but he needs to be heavily involved on a personal level with his recruiting. It's his job before anyone else's. It's his program, not his staff's.

He started toying with the Gibbs as a shooting PG thing, with Wanny as a point forward. He still had enough continuity and grit, and solid overall play that he got through that. I think he WANTED to course correct with a more traditional lead guard in JRob, but he sadly seems to have a lower ceiling than he might have thought. But, to your point, he simply has not recruited any viable 2G, and with Newkirk spinning out was left last year with only one point.

He has increasingly gotten into recruiting 1/2s. Half point guards/half shooting guards like Newkirk, half SGs/half SFs like Cam Johnson, half SFs/Half PFs like Luther.

Beyond the misses, the roster just is a mess positionally. Young isn't as badly miscast as people want to think. Lots of big men like him in college basketball. But, his best player, Artis is a half/half at this point.

He has a true PG, and pretty much everyone else is not a true anything.

 

[NTOP]

He started toying with the Gibbs as a shooting PG thing, with Wanny as a point forward. He still had enough continuity and grit, and solid overall play that he got through that. I think he WANTED to course correct with a more traditional lead guard in JRob, but he sadly seems to have a lower ceiling than he might have thought. But, to your point, he simply has not recruited any viable 2G, and with Newkirk spinning out was left last year with only one point.

He has increasingly gotten into recruiting 1/2s. Half point guards/half shooting guards like Newkirk, half SGs/half SFs like Cam Johnson, half SFs/Half PFs like Luther.

Beyond the misses, the roster just is a mess positionally. Young isn't as badly miscast as people want to think. Lots of big men like him in college basketball. But, his best player, Artis is a half/half at this point.

He has a true PG, and pretty much everyone else is not a true anything.

Some good points, but the 3 new "bigs" are really all centers, though the role of centers has sorta morphed a bit. I think Mike is a better player than Jamel, and will flourish more as a PF. Jamel's a tweener, no doubt. And Slim, at 6-7, looks like a 2g to me....good skills & instincts. Sometimes guys can have trouble getting comfortable in those 1/2 roles They just need to play, stop overthinking.

 

[Jeffburgh]

Some good points, but the 3 new "bigs" are really all centers, though the role of centers has sorta morphed a bit. I think Mike is a better player than Jamel, and will flourish more as a PF. Jamel's a tweener, no doubt. And Slim, at 6-7, looks like a 2g to me....good skills & instincts. Sometimes guys can have trouble getting comfortable in those 1/2 roles They just need to play, stop overthinking.

I have no problem positionally with the fifth year guys - heck Smith is possibly the best all around 2G he has gotten his hands on during his time as HC, and hopefully the bigs let Young play PF.

But, it is one year for these guys. Unless he repeats the fifth year thing, the top 7-8 will be another mash next year.

I like Johnson's talent, but hard to see a kid his size playing SG, particularly in JDs system.

 

[Harve74]

He started toying with the Gibbs as a shooting PG thing, with Wanny as a point forward. He still had enough continuity and grit, and solid overall play that he got through that. I think he WANTED to course correct with a more traditional lead guard in JRob, but he sadly seems to have a lower ceiling than he might have thought. But, to your point, he simply has not recruited any viable 2G, and with Newkirk spinning out was left last year with only one point.

He has increasingly gotten into recruiting 1/2s. Half point guards/half shooting guards like Newkirk, half SGs/half SFs like Cam Johnson, half SFs/Half PFs like Luther.

Beyond the misses, the roster just is a mess positionally. Young isn't as badly miscast as people want to think. Lots of big men like him in college basketball. But, his best player, Artis is a half/half at this point.

He has a true PG, and pretty much everyone else is not a true anything.

I'd argue we've ALWAYS signed tweeners. Brandin and Levance at 1 and Morris, Gray, McGhee and Adams at 5 are arguably the only "true" natural position guys we ever had. That's kind of what happens unless you recruit at an elite level. And, that's where the game is going. Jamie's three position analysis, Points, Wings and Bigs, is being increasingly used, particularly in the NBA.

When it works, it's applauded as flexibility. When it doesn't you get a mess like our current roster. Dixon has frequently recruited big combo guards who can pass and play defense and smaller shooters who really never were PG's. It worked fairly well with Ramon and Gibbs, not so well with John Johnson. Brad and Lamar were PDG as point forwards.

I still think the biggest probem with the roster is that too many guys left and we lost the linkage. We are no longer playing men against boys. Losing Durand's shooting for two and a half seasons really hurt too. He should be a veteran weapon right now, a potential game changer.

 

[Jeffburgh]

I'd argue we've ALWAYS signed tweeners. Brandin and Levance at 1 and Morris, Gray, McGhee and Adams at 5 are arguably the only "true" natural position guys we ever had. That's kind of what happens unless you recruit at an elite level. And, that's where the game is going. Jamie's three position analysis, Points, Wings and Bigs, is being increasingly used, particularly in the NBA.

When it works, it's applauded as flexibility. When it doesn't you get a mess like our current roster. Dixon has frequently recruited big combo guards who can pass and play defense and smaller shooters who really never were PG's. It worked fairly well with Ramon and Gibbs, not so well with John Johnson. Brad and Lamar were PDG as point forwards.

I still think the biggest probem with the roster is that too many guys left and we lost the linkage. We are no longer playing men against boys. Losing Durand's shooting for two and a half seasons really hurt too. He should be a veteran weapon right now, a potential game changer.

No doubt the attrition/misses put a major kink in the developmental aspect that tended to give the team continuity, experience and maturity.

Yes, he has tended to always recruit guard the way you noted.

But, he has increasingly recruited the half and halfs over time in the front court.

He USED to recruit actual PFs and Centers. He went from having a guy like DZ or Chevy at PF to playing Nas there for three years and basically has not recruited a traditional post oriented PF since, and hasn't recruited an actual prep center since Gilbert. He has had to play guys who probably should have been PFs at center in Zanna and Young, and guys who aren't really PFs at PF for so long you lose track of it.

However it got to it, based on who they have on roster/signed, to start the 2016 season they will have Wilson, Artis, Jeter, Jones, Johnson, Luther, Newkirk and Manigault. Wilson aside, and we can't know until we see him if he is a true PG or not, if Manigault is playing center, which is where he is going to be based on this set up, not a single player here will be playing his true position or have a "true" position.

Not even the guards you noted, just a weird mix of half PF/SFs half SFs/SGs ...

 

[geeman2001]

With Pitt, any consideration for a coach removal has to be put in context with intent/means for replacement.

If they intend and have a plan/means for a true upgrade, go for it.

If it's more of a retrenchment / cost cutting / low priority / half assed effort, which we've seen several times in recent years, all Pitt fans should prefer to roll their dice with Jamie turning things around.

Some will cite Susie for Agnus as an upgrade, but geez, pretty low bar there. And Narduzzi simply is an unknown. His hiring was more professional than previous efforts, but ... again, low bar there. Plus, let's remember, they didn't exactly break the bank for him, either. I'll give benefit that there was SOME priority for finding a potential winner with Narduzzi's hire , but no question before that, with hirings of the past two decades, winning was the least of the concerns. Anyone who did win somewhat seemed to be an accident, and almost seemed to perturb the administration. Giving bumps and new deals to keep Jamie as he had success was basically the only exception.

With other schools, replacing a stagnant coach gives hope and promise; with Pitt, trepidation.

 

[Harve74]

No doubt the attrition/misses put a major kink in the developmental aspect that tended to give the team continuity, experience and maturity.

Yes, he has tended to always recruit guard the way you noted.

But, he has increasingly recruited the half and halfs over time in the front court.

He USED to recruit actual PFs and Centers. He went from having a guy like DZ or Chevy at PF to playing Nas there for three years and basically has not recruited a traditional post oriented PF since, and hasn't recruited an actual prep center since Gilbert. He has had to play guys who probably should have been PFs at center in Zanna and Young, and guys who aren't really PFs at PF for so long you lose track of it.

However it got to it, based on who they have on roster/signed, to start the 2016 season they will have Wilson, Artis, Jeter, Jones, Johnson, Luther, Newkirk and Manigault. Wilson aside, and we can't know until we see him if he is a true PG or not, if Manigault is playing center, which is where he is going to be based on this set up, not a single player here will be playing his true position or have a "true" position.

Not even the guards you noted, just a weird mix of half PF/SFs half SFs/SGs ...

Uh, Adams was the year AFTER Gilbert.

And you kinda ignore two 5-star PF's in Taylor and Birch. And Mike Young Zanna and Young are playing 5 only because Adams and Gilbert bailed.

Artis was a wing when he was recruited. Until he showed up at 6-7 and 230, he was slated as a replacement for Lamar. Who expected a 20+ year old to grow another two inches? Likewise, Nasir was supposed to be a GUARD when he came here. He had been at Nike's elite guard camp. He simply couldn't shoot beyond 5 feet.

It's sorta a moot point that almost everybody is playing traditional PF's at 5 these days because all the true centers are in the NBA after one season. Taylor, Zanna and Young are fairly typical 5's these days in college. Even Duke started a kid just like them, two seasons back, before they got Okafor.

It's not as simple as plugging kids into their "natural" 1 thru 5 slots. It never really was. A lot of the guys we thought of as all-time greats were really playing out of what we would say was their "natural" position. Wes Unseld was 6-7. Dave Cowan was about 6-8. Yet, both were multi-time All stars at center.

 

[Harve74]

With Pitt, any consideration for a coach removal has to be put in context with intent/means for replacement.

If they intend and have a plan/means for a true upgrade, go for it.

If it's more of a retrenchment / cost cutting / low priority / half assed effort, which we've seen several times in recent years, all Pitt fans should prefer to roll their dice with Jamie turning things around.

Some will cite Susie for Agnus as an upgrade, but geez, pretty low bar there. And Narduzzi simply is an unknown. His hiring was more professional than previous efforts, but ... again, low bar there. Plus, let's remember, they didn't exactly break the bank for him, either. I'll give benefit that there was SOME priority for finding a potential winner with Narduzzi's hire , but no question before that, with hirings of the past two decades, winning was the least of the concerns. Anyone who did win somewhat seemed to be an accident, and almost seemed to perturb the administration. Giving bumps and new deals to keep Jamie as he had success was basically the only exception.

With other schools, replacing a stagnant coach gives hope and promise; with Pitt, trepidation.

Pitt is in the bottom 5 in revenue in the P5 schools. We were among the lowest in donations in the Big East, despite being one of the largest schools. We are where we are DESPITE having subsidized our athletic programs at nearly $10MM yearly for some time.

In recent years, the basketball program has made more money than the football program. That probably changes this year but we're still subsidizing athletics at about $7MM this year. And the O'Bannon NIL trust payments and stipends haven't kicked in yet.

Winning is nice and Dr. Gallagher has said nice things about excellence not being a selective goal, but unless revenues change greatly, nothing else is likely to change greatly either.

We better hope Pat Narduzzi catches lightning in a bottle.

 

[Fsgolfdr]

A great coach takes the talent he/she has and maximizes their potential and puts his/ her players in a position to succeed . In the case of a nonprofessional coach molding their players to be successful after their playing days are over should be important aslo. Sounds like our coach doesn't it?
Has Pitt under JD ever been an underachieving team? I don't think so , I think quite the opposite is true ,that Pitt has overachieved under his tenure. How many NBA players has Pitt had . (4) How many McD / top 25 players (2) How can you really expect Pitt to compete with the elite programs with the talent that Pitt has. So isn't he responsible for acquiring the talent ? Yes he is ,but who among us know what constraints has been placed on him by the administration. No payouts to AAU coaches,parents handlers,no trouble makers, kids who can actually do college work. No local recuirting base.Budget issues. Not an historic elite program. So who's coming in here to turn this around? Nobody that would get this board excited.
JD needs to get back to developing players ,having physically mature 4/5 yrs guys who know the system and can rebound and play defense. Push those skinny 18 y/o around because nobody can recuirt the players needed to compete with the Dukes and Ky of the world at Pitt without cheating.

 

[geeman2001]

Pitt is in the bottom 5 in revenue in the P5 schools. We were among the lowest in donations in the Big East, despite being one of the largest schools. We are where we are DESPITE having subsidized our athletic programs at nearly $10MM yearly for some time.

In recent years, the basketball program has made more money than the football program. That probably changes this year but we're still subsidizing athletics at about $7MM this year. And the O'Bannon NIL trust payments and stipends haven't kicked in yet.

Winning is nice and Dr. Gallagher has said nice things about excellence not being a selective goal, but unless revenues change greatly, nothing else is likely to change greatly either.

We better hope Pat Narduzzi catches lightning in a bottle.

So, as I said, more reason to keep Dixon k avoiding a buy out as well), as Pitt will likely consider itself out of the market for an upgrade to him. So why bother?

 

[Harve74]

So, as I said, more reason to keep Dixon k avoiding a buy out as well), as Pitt will likely consider itself out of the market for an upgrade to him. So why bother?

I'm in your boat.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

In three years if we are still "mediocre", do us a favor and get in your time machine, go back to when we should've fired Jamie Dixon, and give him the axe. Better bring some articles and newspaper clippings along so you've got some proof.

ha!

 

[Delpanther]

Uh, Adams was the year AFTER Gilbert.

And you kinda ignore two 5-star PF's in Taylor and Birch. And Mike Young Zanna and Young are playing 5 only because Adams and Gilbert bailed.

Artis was a wing when he was recruited. Until he showed up at 6-7 and 230, he was slated as a replacement for Lamar. Who expected a 20+ year old to grow another two inches? Likewise, Nasir was supposed to be a GUARD when he came here. He had been at Nike's elite guard camp. He simply couldn't shoot beyond 5 feet.

It's sorta a moot point that almost everybody is playing traditional PF's at 5 these days because all the true centers are in the NBA after one season. Taylor, Zanna and Young are fairly typical 5's these days in college. Even Duke started a kid just like them, two seasons back, before they got Okafor.

It's not as simple as plugging kids into their "natural" 1 thru 5 slots. It never really was. A lot of the guys we thought of as all-time greats were really playing out of what we would say was their "natural" position. Wes Unseld was 6-7. Dave Cowan was about 6-8. Yet, both were multi-time All stars at center.

Nasir at guard-now that's funny, harve!

 

[Jeffburgh]

Uh, Adams was the year AFTER Gilbert.

And you kinda ignore two 5-star PF's in Taylor and Birch. And Mike Young Zanna and Young are playing 5 only because Adams and Gilbert bailed.

Artis was a wing when he was recruited. Until he showed up at 6-7 and 230, he was slated as a replacement for Lamar. Who expected a 20+ year old to grow another two inches? Likewise, Nasir was supposed to be a GUARD when he came here. He had been at Nike's elite guard camp. He simply couldn't shoot beyond 5 feet.

It's sorta a moot point that almost everybody is playing traditional PF's at 5 these days because all the true centers are in the NBA after one season. Taylor, Zanna and Young are fairly typical 5's these days in college. Even Duke started a kid just like them, two seasons back, before they got Okafor.

It's not as simple as plugging kids into their "natural" 1 thru 5 slots. It never really was. A lot of the guys we thought of as all-time greats were really playing out of what we would say was their "natural" position. Wes Unseld was 6-7. Dave Cowan was about 6-8. Yet, both were multi-time All stars at center.

Adams committed three weeks after Gilbert ... Gilbert was the McGhee to Adam's Blair, the developmental center to replace the stud.

Your post supports my point.

What positions did Taylor and Birch play in college? Center.

What positions did Zanna and now Young play? Center.

What position did Nas play? Power Forward. And, that he could shoot or not, Nas was no D1 guard, he never would have been able to defend guards at that level. He was sized and generally skilled as a three guard at best/SF possibly, and with his shooting was not even able to play there.

You want to boil this point down to some extreme. I am not positing or have stated that every player has to be a spot for match for traditional position. That is a weak frame to argue against.

That isn't the point, the point is the make up of this roster (outside of the addition of the fifth year guys this year) is to extraordinarily non-positional it is a serious problem.

Did you see this team play defense this past year? Horrid in man, more horrid in zone.

Reason - no one is able to match up with the guys on the other side of them, ie, they don't fit in those positions.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Gilbert is a stiff, we are better with the open roster spot.

Nas was Paul Harris with less hops.

 

[geeman2001]

I have no problem positionally with the fifth year guys - heck Smith is possibly the best all around 2G he has gotten his hands on during his time as HC, and hopefully the bigs let Young play PF.

But, it is one year for these guys. Unless he repeats the fifth year thing, the top 7-8 will be another mash next year.

I like Johnson's talent, but hard to see a kid his size playing SG, particularly in JDs system.

The 5th year guys themselves aren't a lament. As you mentioned they automatically provide our best rebounders and 2 guard. THAT is the concern of it. The need (and it was critical) of having to resort to the 5th year guys to merely put a competitive group on the floor is the disturbing aspect. As you mention, it signals how far off we've gotten with recent recruits, and prospects seem lean for the future years. So does he have to go scrounging for multiple 5th year scraps every year from now on? That points the program in a very Duquesne kind of direction.

Again, frustrating that there is no priority to reporting on Pitt in the sports media here because the situation with the assistants is a juicy story. They had good ones, they left, and they were replaced with ones that almost all were dubious of from the start (and for good reason it turned out). There is a clear problem, it's not speculation, yet the root cause is poisonously so. Why isn't this being addressed? Jamie stubbornly refusing? AD won't pony up?

 

[Scruffy the Panther]

We played horrible defense because the team wasn't good at the fundamentals on any level. They frequently lost their man, failed to rotate properly, closed on shooters later, fouled unnecessarily, failed to box out after a missed shot, and generally gave poor effort. None if this is due to being out of position or due to not being a "true" guard/forward/center. No reason to build elaborate conspiracy theories for what is a simple explanation.

This whole "true blah blah blah" meme is annoying. Especially when people parrot this nonsense after getting owned by "untrue" centers all year long.

That isn't the point, the point is the make up of this roster (outside of the addition of the fifth year guys this year) is to extraordinarily non-positional it is a serious problem.

Did you see this team play defense this past year? Horrid in man, more horrid in zone.

Reason - no one is able to match up with the guys on the other side of them, ie, they don't fit in those positions.

 

[NTOP]

We played horrible defense because the team wasn't good at the fundamentals on any level. They frequently lost their man, failed to rotate properly, closed on shooters later, fouled unnecessarily, failed to box out after a missed shot, and generally gave poor effort. None if this is due to being out of position or due to not being a "true" guard/forward/center. No reason to build elaborate conspiracy theories for what is a simple explanation.

This whole "true blah blah blah" meme is annoying. Especially when people parrot this nonsense after getting owned by "untrue" centers all year long.

Gotta agree, Scruffy.

 

[Jeffburgh]

We played horrible defense because the team wasn't good at the fundamentals on any level. They frequently lost their man, failed to rotate properly, closed on shooters later, fouled unnecessarily, failed to box out after a missed shot, and generally gave poor effort. None if this is due to being out of position or due to not being a "true" guard/forward/center. No reason to build elaborate conspiracy theories for what is a simple explanation.

This whole "true blah blah blah" meme is annoying. Especially when people parrot this nonsense after getting owned by "untrue" centers all year long.

it is not even debatable that the team defense was disastrous, but most of what you note, again, supports the contention that most of these guys don't have a position.

Defense is 25% synchronized swimming and 75% stopping your man.

When you can't keep up with the guy you are defending, either because it is in some way a physical mismatch or because you don't understand the nuances of the player, you lose your man, you close out late, you foul unnecessarily, etc.

You can get cranky because you don't want to hear it all you want, but end of the day, it isn't nonsense.

Ex. This team can't stop a hot shooting guard because ... They don't have shooting guards, guys with equivalent physical tools AND the mindset and instincts to anticipate or react to what they are doing. You can do all the fundamentals and play great team defense, but you are still going to get beat.

Seriously, who has the physical talent to defend a two on this team?

Chris Jones is going to get abused by any SG he covers if he plays there, might hold up some against a SF.

Newkirk has the quickness to be an effective defender, but because he is not sized to effectively he isn't great on twos, and because he has spit for PG DNA he gets chewed up by PGs.

Jamal Artis can be the most fundamentally sound defender in the history of the game, and it will make him an adequate at best defender because ... he is not strong enough to handle PFs and not quick enough to shut down a wing forward.

 

[Jeffburgh]

The 5th year guys themselves aren't a lament. As you mentioned they automatically provide our best rebounders and 2 guard. THAT is the concern of it. The need (and it was critical) of having to resort to the 5th year guys to merely put a competitive group on the floor is the disturbing aspect. As you mention, it signals how far off we've gotten with recent recruits, and prospects seem lean for the future years. So does he have to go scrounging for multiple 5th year scraps every year from now on? That points the program in a very Duquesne kind of direction.

Again, frustrating that there is no priority to reporting on Pitt in the sports media here because the situation with the assistants is a juicy story. They had good ones, they left, and they were replaced with ones that almost all were dubious of from the start (and for good reason it turned out). There is a clear problem, it's not speculation, yet the root cause is poisonously so. Why isn't this being addressed? Jamie stubbornly refusing? AD won't pony up?

Getting a Randall or Euchebo in isolation is OK, but JD has been scrambling for these kinds of guys, not to mention now having to take three fifth year seniors in one class, more than he has ever, and it isn't even close. He did what he had to do whiffing on his prep targets, but the recruiting the last few years is absolutely the hallmark of a bad program, and so far removed from how JD had things running it is almost surreal.

 

[Harve74]

Adams committed three weeks after Gilbert ... Gilbert was the McGhee to Adam's Blair, the developmental center to replace the stud.

Your post supports my point.

What positions did Taylor and Birch play in college? Center.

What positions did Zanna and now Young play? Center.

What position did Nas play? Power Forward. And, that he could shoot or not, Nas was no D1 guard, he never would have been able to defend guards at that level. He was sized and generally skilled as a three guard at best/SF possibly, and with his shooting was not even able to play there.

You want to boil this point down to some extreme. I am not positing or have stated that every player has to be a spot for match for traditional position. That is a weak frame to argue against.

That isn't the point, the point is the make up of this roster (outside of the addition of the fifth year guys this year) is to extraordinarily non-positional it is a serious problem.

Did you see this team play defense this past year? Horrid in man, more horrid in zone.

Reason - no one is able to match up with the guys on the other side of them, ie, they don't fit in those positions.

Gilbert was in Birch's 2011 class, not with Adams in 2012. . Agreed he was always a developmental guy, but we signed Adams in the class a year AFTER Gilbert. FWIW, Birch committed a month after Gilbert. And Gilbert, the worst of the bunch, was a 4-star some places and at worst, a Top 100 guy.

No argument that Birch and Taylor and Zanna for that matter ended up playing center. But Rivals calls them all power forwards, as did most of the posters on here while they blamed Dixon for playing them out of position.

They weren't recruited to play center. That's where they ended up. Amile Jefferson was listed as a 4 and recruited as such but ended up starting at center with Jabari Parker at 4. And that was at DUKE, where they select, not recruit.

A lot of guys don't work out at the positions their height says should be their "natural" position. Dejun Blair was measured at 6-5 1/4 at the combine but still basically plays center in the NBA.

I agree totally that this roster is messed up positionally and class distribution-wise. Basically, that stems from the mass defections of the three tallest guys on the roster, Adams, Birch and Gilbert, in about 17 months, plus two fairly highly rated wings, Trey Zeigler and JJ Moore plus "our Scottie Reynolds" in John Johnson. Throw in losing the last 2 1/2 seasons of the guy recruited to be our designated shooter in Durand and, yeah, the roster IS in disarray.

In the Spring when Adams and Moore left, when it was rumored that Wright and maybe another guy would follow, it looked questionable that we could even field a team.

We added Randall as an emergency replacement big but his inconsistent and often uninspired performances made you sort of understand why Mike Rice threw balls at him. We threw money at Slice and he whiffed on Trevor Lacey and signed two eligibility headaches in Mostella and Doorson, a stiff in Houghton and a guy who could play but couldn't walk in Uchebo.

Mike Young was a very solid recruit. Artis was surprisingy effective offensively and just as big a negative surprise at ANY position defensively., With their offense, they give us two of the top 10-15 players in the ACC for two more seasons. Chris Jones had a couple nice moments but was asked to carry more load than he's capable of, at least so far and maybe ever. Newkirk looked promising as a freshman and horrid as a soph. Which is the true Josh? Jeter was a question mark at times. Sometimes he looked pretty good. Others he disappeared. Again, who knows which he really is.

We look like we just signed whoever we could get. And, that may be the case. It's really uncharacteristic of Dixon. Planning his roster years ahead was always one of his strengths until the mass defections.

I respect your opinions but I just don't buy the tweener stuff. As I said, we've always played guys outside their so-called natural position and EXPLOITED the match-ups. OFFENSIVELY, we did that last season with Mike and Jamel. All the "and a half" guys were pretty effective for the past 10 years. It's not the position flexibility that's the problem, it's that this bunch just can't or won't play defense. Anybody should be able to be acceptable defensively with a little effort and concentration. We're not looking for Virginia's defense here, just improving to close to average. They could use an injection of toughness too. Anybody csn get beat in man by a faster guy. But anybody should be at least competent in zone. That's not playing a half position off, it's just lack of concentration. Or effort.

Dixon has a roster that could be in the NCAAT the next two seasons. That buys him time. But recruiting has to get fixed and the roster has to get balanced.And, the guys who are here have to put the effort in. Too often, they just weren't interested in the defensive end.

 

[Harve74]

Nasir at guard-now that's funny, harve!

Nasir was recruited as a SF. The 2 and 3 are almost interchangeable in our system.
His Chester HS coach played him some at PG and Nike brought him to their elite 2G Skills Camp.

I gotta agree, it WAS hilarious. But it happened.

 

[gary2]

Accepting everything you just posted, and we are able to keep Maginault as a recruit, what would you do with the three remaining scholarships to get recruiting fixed and get the roster balanced? I would like to hear your ideas as to players and positions you consider attainable.

My attempt:

PG - C.Moore or X.Simpson - T.Carr?
2G - ? or ? - C.Jones?
C/PF - S.Konate or D.Painter - M.Freeman?

If current player leaves - SF - T.Beck or L.Stevens - ?

Do you think our fan base would consider this good, adequate or underwhelming?

 

[Scruffy the Panther]

it is not even debatable that the team defense was disastrous, but most of what you note, again, supports the contention that most of these guys don't have a position.

Defense is 25% synchronized swimming and 75% stopping your man.

When you can't keep up with the guy you are defending, either because it is in some way a physical mismatch or because you don't understand the nuances of the player, you lose your man, you close out late, you foul unnecessarily, etc.

You can get cranky because you don't want to hear it all you want, but end of the day, it isn't nonsense.

Ex. This team can't stop a hot shooting guard because ... They don't have shooting guards, guys with equivalent physical tools AND the mindset and instincts to anticipate or react to what they are doing. You can do all the fundamentals and play great team defense, but you are still going to get beat.

Seriously, who has the physical talent to defend a two on this team?

Chris Jones is going to get abused by any SG he covers if he plays there, might hold up some against a SF.

Newkirk has the quickness to be an effective defender, but because he is not sized to effectively he isn't great on twos, and because he has spit for PG DNA he gets chewed up by PGs.

Jamal Artis can be the most fundamentally sound defender in the history of the game, and it will make him an adequate at best defender because ... he is not strong enough to handle PFs and not quick enough to shut down a wing forward.

Who had the physical talent to defend a "true" shooting guard on the team the year before? We weren't exactly great at stopping the initial dribble penetration in 13-14, yet help defense was usually in the right place afterwords.

Who was the true center on the team the year before? Talib? Was Lamar some divine athletic specimen and I wasn't? The difference between the two years defensive efficiency is staggering; 29 with Lamar and Talib to 202 without them.

James Robinson is a true point guard right? Yet he got beaten fairly regularly by faster guards fairly often. Maybe even by some untrue shooting or point guards. Maybe he's not true enough.

You're argument about why Newkirk can't defend is that he's too short? All the height in the world doesn't matter when the person you're guarding blows by you despite being the quickest player on the team. You'll have to explain to me what defensive point guard DNA even means, because I'm lost there.

So if Jamel Artis lifts a lot this summer and gets stronger, he turns into a true power forward? I guess he doesn't have to work on his poor fundamentals or effort on the defensive end after all.

Where did you get those stats about defense being synchronized swimming versus stopping your man by the way? Besides from your rectum?

I didn't hear any rebuttals about us being poor with the fundamentals, and still I don't buy that you can be a good defensive team without them.

 

[gary2]

James Robinson is as good at fundamental defense as it gets. If he was getting beat last season, it was because he was injured.

 

[Jeffburgh]

Gilbert was in Birch's 2011 class, not with Adams in 2012. . Agreed he was always a developmental guy, but we signed Adams in the class a year AFTER Gilbert. FWIW, Birch committed a month after Gilbert. And Gilbert, the worst of the bunch, was a 4-star some places and at worst, a Top 100 guy.

No argument that Birch and Taylor and Zanna for that matter ended up playing center. But Rivals calls them all power forwards, as did most of the posters on here while they blamed Dixon for playing them out of position.

They weren't recruited to play center. That's where they ended up. Amile Jefferson was listed as a 4 and recruited as such but ended up starting at center with Jabari Parker at 4. And that was at DUKE, where they select, not recruit.

A lot of guys don't work out at the positions their height says should be their "natural" position. Dejun Blair was measured at 6-5 1/4 at the combine but still basically plays center in the NBA.

I agree totally that this roster is messed up positionally and class distribution-wise. Basically, that stems from the mass defections of the three tallest guys on the roster, Adams, Birch and Gilbert, in about 17 months, plus two fairly highly rated wings, Trey Zeigler and JJ Moore plus "our Scottie Reynolds" in John Johnson. Throw in losing the last 2 1/2 seasons of the guy recruited to be our designated shooter in Durand and, yeah, the roster IS in disarray.

In the Spring when Adams and Moore left, when it was rumored that Wright and maybe another guy would follow, it looked questionable that we could even field a team.

We added Randall as an emergency replacement big but his inconsistent and often uninspired performances made you sort of understand why Mike Rice threw balls at him. We threw money at Slice and he whiffed on Trevor Lacey and signed two eligibility headaches in Mostella and Doorson, a stiff in Houghton and a guy who could play but couldn't walk in Uchebo.

Mike Young was a very solid recruit. Artis was surprisingy effective offensively and just as big a negative surprise at ANY position defensively., With their offense, they give us two of the top 10-15 players in the ACC for two more seasons. Chris Jones had a couple nice moments but was asked to carry more load than he's capable of, at least so far and maybe ever. Newkirk looked promising as a freshman and horrid as a soph. Which is the true Josh? Jeter was a question mark at times. Sometimes he looked pretty good. Others he disappeared. Again, who knows which he really is.

We look like we just signed whoever we could get. And, that may be the case. It's really uncharacteristic of Dixon. Planning his roster years ahead was always one of his strengths until the mass defections.

I respect your opinions but I just don't buy the tweener stuff. As I said, we've always played guys outside their so-called natural position and EXPLOITED the match-ups. OFFENSIVELY, we did that last season with Mike and Jamel. All the "and a half" guys were pretty effective for the past 10 years. It's not the position flexibility that's the problem, it's that this bunch just can't or won't play defense. Anybody should be able to be acceptable defensively with a little effort and concentration. We're not looking for Virginia's defense here, just improving to close to average. They could use an injection of toughness too. Anybody csn get beat in man by a faster guy. But anybody should be at least competent in zone. That's not playing a half position off, it's just lack of concentration. Or effort.

Dixon has a roster that could be in the NCAAT the next two seasons. That buys him time. But recruiting has to get fixed and the roster has to get balanced.And, the guys who are here have to put the effort in. Too often, they just weren't interested in the defensive end.

We agree on most of the last paragraph. Again, it also goes without saying the team defense was criminal. And, their overall defensive attention was criminal.

That these things are the case does not disprove the fact these guys are half jacks of a few things and masters of nothing (outside of Young and Artis). To what extent they "exploit" teams in some way they get exploited a lot more, particularly defensively.

I totally respect you, but you are taking what I am saying as though I am saying there were never multiposition players in the program.

I am not talking about the past, I am talking about what is at hand now.

That the team had some solid multiposition players in the past does not make it OK that they almost literally have all half and halfs now.

What they have on this roster now and signed, for 2017, Johnson is half a SG/half a SF, Luther half a PF/half a SF. Maginault presumably is just a pure PF. Jeter is a classic half and half forward, Artis maybe a SF if he gets to adequate with his defense there. Jones is a liability at SG, none descript at SF. Wilson, who know if he is a true PG or another half and half.

THIS ALL MIGHT BE OK, except ... They have no center (though it is not out of the norm to have a guy like Young there), no shooting guard and no PG unless Wilson is a for real PG.

They might have had multipositional guys in the past, but that is NOT what JD built the program on. He built it on bruising big men, tough as nails wings and safe guard play, not two real and half a dozen cheap swiss army knives.

What is here now in now way looks like the past ...

My point is not that that having some versatile front court guys is bad.

It is that that they don't have a fricken SG, a fricken PG or a bruising power player at center or PF past this season.

 

[Harve74]

Accepting everything you just posted, and we are able to keep Maginault as a recruit, what would you do with the three remaining scholarships to get recruiting fixed and get the roster balanced? I would like to hear your ideas as to players and positions you consider attainable.

I think we need to get a PG, a scorer and probably another guy with length, although a quick defender wouldn't bother me either.

Any of Charlie Moore, the Simpson kid from Lima who was just offered or Tony Carr would be good gets but I'm not sure any are attainable. There's a Playaz kid who is Top 150 who might be. I can't recall his name right now.

Not sure who we get as a scorer. Lamar Stevens would be nice but he's not a shooter. Tervel Beck was considered likely but we may have backed off him. Both may be more small 4's than 2/3 guys. We've offered a number of scorers but few have shown much interest. Could be a combo guy who can play defense. If the PG were to be Moore or Simpson, both of them could fill up the scoresheet too. And the Playaz kid supposedly can shoot too. We MIGHT just take two guards and two bigs. Cam Johnson and Damon Wilson have length and athleticism to give good minutes at wing.

There are several guys at 4/5 who could slip in. Konate is athletic but raw. The Painter kid has improved and the Marfo kid has just popped up after reclassifying. There's another big Kiwi who is looking to play at a prep school too and has some interest here too. He's under the radar.

After Young, Artis and Jeter move on, the only 4 left is Luther. I'm assuming we'll mainly play 4/5's as we have recently so Manigault and any other of the guys I just mentioned could share the 4/5 in '17/'18, even if they redshirt in .'16/'17 so a developmental big wouldn't bother me.

It will REALLY take the 6-man 2017 class to balance things. The '16 class just needs to add some building blocks.

 

[Jeffburgh]

Who had the physical talent to defend a "true" shooting guard on the team the year before? We weren't exactly great at stopping the initial dribble penetration in 13-14, yet help defense was usually in the right place afterwords.

Who was the true center on the team the year before? Talib? Was Lamar some divine athletic specimen and I wasn't? The difference between the two years defensive efficiency is staggering; 29 with Lamar and Talib to 202 without them.

James Robinson is a true point guard right? Yet he got beaten fairly regularly by faster guards fairly often. Maybe even by some untrue shooting or point guards. Maybe he's not true enough.

You're argument about why Newkirk can't defend is that he's too short? All the height in the world doesn't matter when the person you're guarding blows by you despite being the quickest player on the team. You'll have to explain to me what defensive point guard DNA even means, because I'm lost there.

So if Jamel Artis lifts a lot this summer and gets stronger, he turns into a true power forward? I guess he doesn't have to work on his poor fundamentals or effort on the defensive end after all.

Where did you get those stats about defense being synchronized swimming versus stopping your man by the way? Besides from your rectum?

I didn't hear any rebuttals about us being poor with the fundamentals, and still I don't buy that you can be a good defensive team without them.

You didn't hear a "rebuttal" to poor fundamentals because I don't "rebutt" it, I agree with it.

As with this point, your post is long on ranting and short on actually reading and responding to what I posted.

 

[gary2]

I think we need to get a PG, a scorer and probably another guy with length, although a quick defender wouldn't bother me either.

Any of Charlie Moore, the Simpson kid from Lima who was just offered or Tony Carr would be good gets but I'm not sure any are attainable. There's a Playaz kid who is Top 150 who might be. I can't recall his name right now.

Not sure who we get as a scorer. Lamar Stevens would be nice but he's not a shooter. Tervel Beck was considered likely but we may have backed off him. Both may be more small 4's than 2/3 guys. We've offered a number of scorers but few have shown much interest. Could be a combo guy who can play defense. If the PG were to be Moore or Simpson, both of them could fill up the scoresheet too. And the Playaz kid supposedly can shoot too. We MIGHT just take two guards and two bigs. Cam Johnson and Damon Wilson have length and athleticism to give good minutes at wing.

There are several guys at 4/5 who could slip in. Konate is athletic but raw. The Painter kid has improved and the Marfo kid has just popped up after reclassifying. There's another big Kiwi who is looking to play at a prep school too and has some interest here too. He's under the radar.

After Young, Artis and Jeter move on, the only 4 left is Luther. I'm assuming we'll mainly play 4/5's as we have recently so Manigault and any other of the guys I just mentioned could share the 4/5 in '17/'18, even if they redshirt in .'16/'17 so a developmental big wouldn't bother me.

It will REALLY take the 6-man 2017 class to balance things. The '16 class just needs to add some building blocks.

Thank you for your reply. I always appreciate your insight (agree that 2016 is important but that 2017 is key).

 

[Harve74]

We agree on most of the last paragraph. Again, it also goes without saying the team defense was criminal. And, their overall defensive attention was criminal.

That these things are the case does not disprove the fact these guys are half jacks of a few things and masters of nothing (outside of Young and Artis). To what extent they "exploit" teams in some way they get exploited a lot more, particularly defensively.

I totally respect you, but you are taking what I am saying as though I am saying there were never multiposition players in the program.

I am not talking about the past, I am talking about what is at hand now.

That the team had some solid multiposition players in the past does not make it OK that they almost literally have all half and halfs now.

What they have on this roster now and signed, for 2017, Johnson is half a SG/half a SF, Luther half a PF/half a SF. Maginault presumably is just a pure PF. Jeter is a classic half and half forward, Artis maybe a SF if he gets to adequate with his defense there. Jones is a liability at SG, none descript at SF. Wilson, who know if he is a true PG or another half and half.

THIS ALL MIGHT BE OK, except ... They have no center (though it is not out of the norm to have a guy like Young there), no shooting guard and no PG unless Wilson is a for real PG.

They might have had multipositional guys in the past, but that is NOT what JD built the program on. He built it on bruising big men, tough as nails wings and safe guard play, not two real and half a dozen cheap swiss army knives.

What is here now in now way looks like the past ...

My point is not that that having some versatile front court guys is bad.

It is that that they don't have a fricken SG, a fricken PG or a bruising power player at center or PF past this season.

We've NEVER had a real shooting guard. We had Ashton who was a poor PG, who could shoot if somebody set him up and Ron Ramon, who was a little better at PG but a little worse at shooting.

PG is a real question. But again, we never had the kind of ideal get to the hoop, quick scoring PG everybody is crying for. BK was the closest but that's a long time ago. I'd be content with another pass-first guy there but very few would. If Damon Wilson isn't the PG of the future, then Newkirk must snap back or Young and Artis will have lousy senior years and Dixon will probaby be let go.

Or, maybe we sign a decent replacement PG in this class and the rebuilding is off and running.

Bruising power guys at 4 and 5 are sorta obsolete. It's length and skill that everybody wants now. Manigault will be here when Maia and Odada are gone. Nix is certainly bruising but may be too slow. Konate is a 2016 bruiser who seems to be out there for the taking and we seem to be slow-playing him. I've given up on trying to read Jamie's mind in recruiting. I just know he rarely seems to want what anybody thnks he should.

Not having a scorng wing worries me as much as the problems you cite, well, outside of PG. If Cam Johnson doesn't show up, we have a hole there and nobody lined up to plug it.

 

[Harve74]

Thank you for your reply. I always appreciate your insight (agree that 2016 is important but that 2017 is key).

I think we just offered ANOTHER new PG. Our final signees may be kids we don't know yet. Given time, I'm fairly well convinced Dixon csn coach just about anybody up.

 

[Scruffy the Panther]

it is not even debatable that the team defense was disastrous, but most of what you note, again, supports the contention that most of these guys don't have a position.

You don't need be the ideal version of your position to box out and prevent offensive rebounds. You don't need to be a true whatever to properly rotate. You don't need be a true whatever to give good effort. You don't need to be a true whatever to keep track of your man. You don't need to be the ideal version of anything to do these well, these are basics.

Defense is 25% synchronized swimming and 75% stopping your man.

Again, where did you get these stats? I would say this counts nonsense. Maybe even "jiggery-pokery" and/or "pure applesauce".

When you can't keep up with the guy you are defending, either because it is in some way a physical mismatch or because you don't understand the nuances of the player, you lose your man, you close out late, you foul unnecessarily, etc.

Physical mismatch is not necessarily dependent on position. As I noted in my earlier post, James Robinson would be one of the players considered a "true" player, but he is frequently physically mismatched when it comes to speed. Gibbs would probably be considered a true shooting guard, but he was physically mismatched all the time when it came to athleticism. Talib Zanna is not a true center, yet did a fine job guarding the position, even generally against bigger guys. Understanding the nuances of the player, losing your man, closing out late, fouling unnecessarily are basics and unrelated to position.

You can get cranky because you don't want to hear it all you want, but end of the day, it isn't nonsense.

Ex. This team can't stop a hot shooting guard because ... They don't have shooting guards, guys with equivalent physical tools AND the mindset and instincts to anticipate or react to what they are doing. You can do all the fundamentals and play great team defense, but you are still going to get beat.

I would actually argue that Cam Wright had plenty of athleticism and length. Still, it's tough to defend a hot shooting guard by yourself. If he beats a guy off the dribble, someone needs to step up and provide help defense, then someone needs to rotate to cover his man, etc. Getting beat off the dribble is bound to happen to almost every team occasionally. It happened to the 13-14 team a lot. They knew how to help and rotate though; this past team didn't.

This also downplays the teamwork involved in helping to make a player "hot". Other players set screens, make cuts, set-up plays to get these people in good positions to score, it's not just one player. Still, even when one player get's ridiculously hot, there other ways for team defense to help out. When TJ Warren score 40 against us the year before, we would've probably won if we didn't give up 13 offensive rebounds. And again, properly boxing out is a not position dependent concept.

Seriously, who has the physical talent to defend a two on this team?

Again, who had the year before? Yet we played much better defense.

Chris Jones is going to get abused by any SG he covers if he plays there, might hold up some against a SF.

Maybe, I'm still not sure him to be honest.

Newkirk has the quickness to be an effective defender, but because he is not sized to effectively he isn't great on twos, and because he has spit for PG DNA he gets chewed up by PGs.

Again, his size were the least of his problems as a two. He couldn't keep anyone in front of them, despite having plenty of speed. He was not physically outmatched. I still have seriously no idea with what you mean by PG DNA as it relates to defense. Please explain.

Jamal Artis can be the most fundamentally sound defender in the history of the game, and it will make him an adequate at best defender because ... he is not strong enough to handle PFs and not quick enough to shut down a wing forward.

Yes, but he's maybe the least fundamentally sound out of anyone on a team full of poor defenders. Which supports my point. Again, if he bulks up, does he suddenly become a true power forward?

I responded to almost everything you wrote in my post, you just chose not to think about or answer any of it. And you failed to logically connect why the lack of fundamentals is explained by players not being "ideal" or "true" position players.

My entire point was that being good at the basics is a necessity to being a good defense. We lacked the fundamentals, thus were a poor defensive team. You apparently think it's due to lack of true position players. You didn't even attempt argue against my position and did a very poor job arguing for yours.

 

[PittBaller]

Not 5 years.....in 2011, a little over 4 years from today....we were a #1 seed, losing to a team because of a brainfart.

alright, 5 years. You know why I thought it was longer, because that team was led by Brad Wanamaker and Gilbert Brown, who were in the recruiting classes of '06 and '07.

The college game is fluid, and Jamie lost all momentum his years of success built.

 

[CrazyPaco]

No you didn't. I didn't advocate firing Dixon. I did say if we have 3 more years of the same, hindsight will dictate that firing Dixon now would have been the prudent move. Just like in 2012, firing Dan Bylsma was unthinkable, but as hindsight suggests, now in review, it would have been the right move.

No, believe me, I absolutely got it the first time. My comments stand. There is absolutely no plausible future scenario where a retrospective view of the firing of Dixon after this past season would be viewed as anything but bat shit crazy and thus seriously damage the athletic leadership's national reputation and ability to make hires.

 

[Jeffburgh]

We've NEVER had a real shooting guard. We had Ashton who was a poor PG, who could shoot if somebody set him up and Ron Ramon, who was a little better at PG but a little worse at shooting.

PG is a real question. But again, we never had the kind of ideal get to the hoop, quick scoring PG everybody is crying for. BK was the closest but that's a long time ago. I'd be content with another pass-first guy there but very few would. If Damon Wilson isn't the PG of the future, then Newkirk must snap back or Young and Artis will have lousy senior years and Dixon will probaby be let go.

Or, maybe we sign a decent replacement PG in this class and the rebuilding is off and running.

Bruising power guys at 4 and 5 are sorta obsolete. It's length and skill that everybody wants now. Manigault will be here when Maia and Odada are gone. Nix is certainly bruising but may be too slow. Konate is a 2016 bruiser who seems to be out there for the taking and we seem to be slow-playing him. I've given up on trying to read Jamie's mind in recruiting. I just know he rarely seems to want what anybody thnks he should.

Not having a scorng wing worries me as much as the problems you cite, well, outside of PG. If Cam Johnson doesn't show up, we have a hole there and nobody lined up to plug it.

Three points:

SG - Julius Page was a shooting guard - the best defense this program has had against SGs in the Howland/JD era was with him. Second best defense this program has had against shooting guards was Jermaine Dixon. Yes, he couldn't shoot, but otherwise he was physically and talent wise a shooting guard. Again, to my point. This program has been exposed to being torched by hot shooting SGs because they didn't have a SG to match up on them. It does not matter how "fundamental" he might be, if he works the team defensive concepts like einstein, there is NO ONE on this roster in 2017 who will be able to effectively play man defense on a shooting guard.

PG - again, you are trying to read into what I am saying. I don't care if it is an "ideal get to the hoop" PG or not, they don't have a PG on this roster starting in 2017 unless Wilson is. I liked Newkirk as much as anyone after his frosh season, and he might be able to rebound somewhat from his horrid sophomore year, but what last year showed in no uncertain terms is he is NOT a starting caliber D1 PG.

Bruising post players - Bruising power guys at 4 and 5 may or may not be "obsolete," but how has this worked out for JD? This program started to tail when he moved away from having bruising big men and toward more of a UConn type big man (I am not saying this is the ONLY reason, but it is most certainly a big factor). You will likely point to Zanna, and he certainly developed into a fine college big man, and they had their only modest burst of success over the last half decade his senior year. But, overall, this transition to "multiskilled" leaner big men has hurt the program. It really is not debatable, the record shows it.

UConn makes it work because they recruit top guys and also get super high end athletes. They block shots all over the place, jump all over the place on offense. JD just does not recruit the kind of QUALITY player like this that they do. So, instead of having a Chevy Troutman or Gary McGhee ripping heads off, he has the same type of big man as everyone else.

This defense thing spun out with an offhanded remark I made.

I was not saying it was the ONLY reason, the defense has spun out, but it certainly is part of it, particularly the man to man.

JDs straight man works a LOT better if you have a SG who can guard SGs, AND if you have some big men who can help to control the inside. McGhee wasn't sexy, but he grabbed rebounds and he kept the paint clear. It makes it a LOT easier to play defense if you have that big man sucking up defensive rebounds, keeping post players from setting picks to get guys to the basket, laying the wood on a guy who drives occasionally.

Again, I did not and am not saying having some multi-skilled/positional guys is a problem. I am saying this roster as of 2017 has no core positional guys to use those players to build around - a PG, a SG and either a for real center like a Blair or McGhee or a stud POWER forward to control the paint (I will say that there is a good chance that Young will be a real stud by then, and possibly a big man who can control things, but that will be for 2017 only ...)

 

[Zaratoughda]

No, believe me, I absolutely got it the first time. My comments stand. There is absolutely no plausible future scenario where a retrospective view of the firing of Dixon after this past season would be viewed as anything but bat shit crazy and thus seriously damage the athletic leadership's national reputation and ability to make hires.

CrazyPaco... to make a long story short I totally agree with you.

But, on the other hand, I was watching the replay of the Louisville game again and Dixon going to the zone, which led to two wide open 3balls made, was a really poor decision... our man may not be that good but the other defenses that Dixon tried last year were hideous... a really poor decision on Dixon's part and from what I have seen he does not own up to his mistakes and the problems that are HIS fault continue.

So, as I see it, unless things change for the better, gone in 2-3 years.

IMO he made the right moves over the summer in bringing in Smith, Maia and ANO. So, there is hope here but only time will tell.

 

[NTOP]

Three points:

SG - Julius Page was a shooting guard - the best defense this program has had against SGs in the Howland/JD era was with him. Second best defense this program has had against shooting guards was Jermaine Dixon. Yes, he couldn't shoot, but otherwise he was physically and talent wise a shooting guard. Again, to my point. This program has been exposed to being torched by hot shooting SGs because they didn't have a SG to match up on them. It does not matter how "fundamental" he might be, if he works the team defensive concepts like einstein, there is NO ONE on this roster in 2017 who will be able to effectively play man defense on a shooting guard.

PG - again, you are trying to read into what I am saying. I don't care if it is an "ideal get to the hoop" PG or not, they don't have a PG on this roster starting in 2017 unless Wilson is. I liked Newkirk as much as anyone after his frosh season, and he might be able to rebound somewhat from his horrid sophomore year, but what last year showed in no uncertain terms is he is NOT a starting caliber D1 PG.

Bruising post players - Bruising power guys at 4 and 5 may or may not be "obsolete," but how has this worked out for JD? This program started to tail when he moved away from having bruising big men and toward more of a UConn type big man (I am not saying this is the ONLY reason, but it is most certainly a big factor). You will likely point to Zanna, and he certainly developed into a fine college big man, and they had their only modest burst of success over the last half decade his senior year. But, overall, this transition to "multiskilled" leaner big men has hurt the program. It really is not debatable, the record shows it.

UConn makes it work because they recruit top guys and also get super high end athletes. They block shots all over the place, jump all over the place on offense. JD just does not recruit the kind of QUALITY player like this that they do. So, instead of having a Chevy Troutman or Gary McGhee ripping heads off, he has the same type of big man as everyone else.

This defense thing spun out with an offhanded remark I made.

I was not saying it was the ONLY reason, the defense has spun out, but it certainly is part of it, particularly the man to man.

JDs straight man works a LOT better if you have a SG who can guard SGs, AND if you have some big men who can help to control the inside. McGhee wasn't sexy, but he grabbed rebounds and he kept the paint clear. It makes it a LOT easier to play defense if you have that big man sucking up defensive rebounds, keeping post players from setting picks to get guys to the basket, laying the wood on a guy who drives occasionally.

Again, I did not and am not saying having some multi-skilled/positional guys is a problem. I am saying this roster as of 2017 has no core positional guys to use those players to build around - a PG, a SG and either a for real center like a Blair or McGhee or a stud POWER forward to control the paint (I will say that there is a good chance that Young will be a real stud by then, and possibly a big man who can control things, but that will be for 2017 only ...)

Although I loved JP's defense, he wasn't a good shooter at all....got to the rim via passes from Knight or breakaways. He had uncanny instinct on defense, but wasn't a great offensive player...or even close. Jaron was pretty much the same story...good on-ball defender, smart as hell....NOT great offensively. Was Gary McGhee good offensively.....nope, but he was a solid defender. You don't need to be a truly good scorer to play good defense. Frankly, I see little correlation. Defense is more effort than skill. We had little effort OR skill last year, and it wasn't because guys were "tweeners".....they played against other "tweeners" a lot.
I agree with your notion of our defense starts with the middle. If your "center" is good enough, he can force the ball out of that penetrator's mitts. We waved at them last year. Hope the grad transfers solve that.

 

[Jeffburgh]

Although I loved JP's defense, he wasn't a good shooter at all....got to the rim via passes from Knight or breakaways. He had uncanny instinct on defense, but wasn't a great offensive player...or even close. Jaron was pretty much the same story...good on-ball defender, smart as hell....NOT great offensively. Was Gary McGhee good offensively.....nope, but he was a solid defender. You don't need to be a truly good scorer to play good defense. Frankly, I see little correlation. Defense is more effort than skill. We had little effort OR skill last year, and it wasn't because guys were "tweeners".....they played against other "tweeners" a lot.
I agree with your notion of our defense starts with the middle. If your "center" is good enough, he can force the ball out of that penetrator's mitts. We waved at them last year. Hope the grad transfers solve that.

I noted in my reply that he JP was not a shooter and did not say or imply that McGhee was a good offensive player. I have not said or am saying that is all about offense, though as the roster sits now, that will absolutely be an issue post Young/Artis. .

We are getting there with the post presence. The defense was better with him for the points you made, even though he was not a shot blocker because he was a true center who controlled the paint on defense. Teams didn't get away with inside picks, they didn't get position for rebounds and guards/wings knew if they drove to the basket that he was likely to put the wood to them.

Again - I repeat, YES the team gave too little effort on defense.

That was PART of it.

I don't care how much "effort" Jones puts into, you can put him on coke, pump him up with Red Bull, kidnap his dog and tell him its life depended on it, and he won't be able to cover a quality 2G.

Because he isn't a 2G. He does not have the "skill" to guard 2Gs.

No one on this team outside of maybe Smith does, because Smith is the only true SG on the team.

 

[thebadby2]

I'd argue we've ALWAYS signed tweeners. Brandin and Levance at 1 and Morris, Gray, McGhee and Adams at 5 are arguably the only "true" natural position guys we ever had. That's kind of what happens unless you recruit at an elite level. And, that's where the game is going. Jamie's three position analysis, Points, Wings and Bigs, is being increasingly used, particularly in the NBA.

When it works, it's applauded as flexibility. When it doesn't you get a mess like our current roster. Dixon has frequently recruited big combo guards who can pass and play defense and smaller shooters who really never were PG's. It worked fairly well with Ramon and Gibbs, not so well with John Johnson. Brad and Lamar were PDG as point forwards.

I still think the biggest probem with the roster is that too many guys left and we lost the linkage. We are no longer playing men against boys. Losing Durand's shooting for two and a half seasons really hurt too. He should be a veteran weapon right now, a potential game changer.

The whole wings, points, bigs thing is suited to the NBA, a wide open, zero defense track meet where everyone on the floor at all sizes can handle the ball from coast to coas and the only interior defense consists of shot blocking.

The way Jamie's system works, you need the right parts for the machine to run properly. Sure, every program has tweeners, but few go to war with one ballhandler, 5-6 small forwards, a couple of 4s and nothing else. It's hard to play Jamie's version of half court offense with those guys. We don't have anyone outside of Artis who can get to the rim from the perimeter, and the way the game and the rules are trending that might be the most important quality of a perimeter player.

Honestly if Durand was here, that's just one more small forward to add to the pile. He would struggle to defend the 2. I don't think he would've made a significant difference.

As for the one year guys, they will help but relying on 3 guys who have never played in JD's system with the players that have been here for 2-3 years as primary players is not good. Ideally those are complimentary players, not the guys you rely on day in day out to carry the load.

We've NEVER had a real shooting guard. We had Ashton who was a poor PG, who could shoot if somebody set him up and Ron Ramon, who was a little better at PG but a little worse at shooting.

PG is a real question. But again, we never had the kind of ideal get to the hoop, quick scoring PG everybody is crying for. BK was the closest but that's a long time ago. I'd be content with another pass-first guy there but very few would. If Damon Wilson isn't the PG of the future, then Newkirk must snap back or Young and Artis will have lousy senior years and Dixon will probaby be let go.

Or, maybe we sign a decent replacement PG in this class and the rebuilding is off and running.

Bruising power guys at 4 and 5 are sorta obsolete. It's length and skill that everybody wants now. Manigault will be here when Maia and Odada are gone. Nix is certainly bruising but may be too slow. Konate is a 2016 bruiser who seems to be out there for the taking and we seem to be slow-playing him. I've given up on trying to read Jamie's mind in recruiting. I just know he rarely seems to want what anybody thnks he should.

Not having a scoring wing worries me as much as the problems you cite, well, outside of PG. If Cam Johnson doesn't show up, we have a hole there and nobody lined up to plug it.

IMO, the modern version of college basketball requires BOTH guard positions to be capable of being primary scorers on any given night. It's one thing for your PG to be primarily a distributor, but one who can and will take/make open shots and get to the rim when the situation calls for it. It's something else when your point guard purely a distributor who can't reliably provide any offense. That's what we have right now and it greatly handicaps us offensively IMO. We are way too easy to defend with JROB out there and a 2 guard who isn't a scorer. Hopefully Wilson is the real thing--he looks good from what I've seen of him on tape--and Newk cleans up his between the ears issues and becomes the PG I think he can be.