He demonstrates that he is an excellent coach and players want to play for him. He is a top three coach in college football and even He took a couple years to get into the 3.3 range that you think Pitt should be at now. It's not realistic.
The Florida myth
- Thread starter jerot
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He demonstrates that he is an excellent coach and players want to play for him. He is a top three coach in college football and even He took a couple years to get into the 3.3 range that you think Pitt should be at now. It's not realistic.
No, I got your point. I just disagree. I don't think a 3.2 to 3.3 average is crazy difficult. In year 4. You actually don't disagree with that either apparently. You just think it will take a bunch of winning first. Apparently we need that 12 win, playoff appearance season before that will be allowed. Until then, we can't expect to recruit at the level of a team located and talent bare Seattle, Washington. We can't match the recruiting of Blacksburg, VA.
He took a "couple of years." I'm sorry, how long has Narduzzi been at Pitt?
How about this:
Without this 12 win, stars align, playoff year that you say ushered in this recruiting level for Washington. Without that season, how many years should we allow before a 3.2 level recruiting class could be expected?
Without this 12 win, stars align, playoff year that you say ushered in this recruiting level for Washington. Without that season, how many years should we allow before we could expect our only commit in June to not be somebody we stole from Appalachian State and the Ivy League?
A
anon_vmuicqnzlyp3u
Guest
This is year four, plenty of time to build solid relationships with coaches and players. Recruiting is nothing more than sales 101. It should not take you 4 years to build a relationship with prospects. If you do that in the real world you are out of a job
It is crazy difficult FOR PITT. Expecting Pitt to recruit at the same level as Michigan's most recent class is not realistic. Every single team that recruits 3.3 or higher each year is a better (usually by far) program than Pitt. It is 10x more difficult for Pitt because of the state of the program after years and years of bad decision making that put Pitt in a negative light. That stuff matters. We have change in stadium. A change in coach. A change in uniform. A change in logo. A change in conference. All we have seen is change change and more change in a world where tradition and consistency seems to be very important. Yet, you somehow expect Pitt to land a coach who can win and recruit relatively quickly, and I'm telling you that is very unrealistic.
I have said in this thread that Narduzzi should get three more seasons to demonstrate that he can get Pitt football to a better place. Getting rid of him before that would be a big mistake.
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anon_vmuicqnzlyp3u
Guest
I'm not expecting Pitt to win quickly. I'm not sure where you got that idea from?
I expect Pitt to recruit around the level of VT, UNC, on probation Ole Miss, changing coaches Miss. State, Maryland, etc., etc.
You want to wait 7 years to see if we can recruit at the level of VT, but expect to win a bunch of games, presumably over VT, to get to the level of VT. I'm telling you that is very unrealistic.
If HCPN gets to year 7 or 8 I would guess that the program is about where WVU HCDH has his program. How you feel about that?Improved, but not playing in CCG, but with a little more talent, depth and luck could make it. Once there playoffs are a chance, but would not expect to win in playoffs. Or do you throw it away and risk dropping back to where Pitt is today?
Solution? Fire Narduzzi? Send him To a Dale Carnegie training class on "How to make Friends and Influence People"?
Or maybe you can give him some sales 101 pointers? Obviously, you know what he's doing wrong.....
Unbelievable...
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anon_vmuicqnzlyp3u
Guest
would be more than glad to teach him how to sell. You have no clue what I do for a living and what I do do I do quite well so yea recruiting is Salesmanship
Has it occurred to you that the vacuum cleaner Narduzzi is selling isn't good as what's on the market?
LOL! .... and you don't know what I do for a living and very good at it. So good, that I have already retired at a very early age.....
I think more importantly, which of those coaches (and staffs) of the top 5 ACC teams does he show more accomplishment or potential than? Because, frankly, with lesser recruiter you aren't saying, "But if HCPN (and Co) is a great coach, he can overcome the lesser talent and win." In order for the equation to work it has to be: "HCPN (and Co) is the best coach and that will allow him to consistently overcome the lesser talent and win."
So he immediately improved recruiting? Then he kept improving it? That hasn't happened under HCPN.
Also, let's look at that jump for the 2016 class that you claim lead to his leap. Yeah, Washington had a great season and they signed 6 top 300 (generally the 4 star cut off) players. Guess how many committed before Wasington's 12 win season...5 of the 6. Oh, damn. That completely blows up your claim. The 12-2 season had nothing to do with getting those top players to commit. Your entire argument and example falls apart when examined closely.
That Vandy vaccum cleaner sure sold a lot better under Franklin than under ANY OTHER HC before or after. Jeff Brohm is selling his program better than it has ever been sold. Tom Herman did the same at Houston. He didn't have the coaching chops to translate it into wins, but Ron Zook did the same at Illinois.
pittdan77
Athletic Director
His first class was a transition year. His second matched the level of the year before he arrived. So it wasn't until the third year that he actually improved recruiting.
As you brought that up before, let me say that I don't care about partial classes. What matters is when the class is complete. Plus, Peterson was a proven coach and had prior recruiting experience as a head coach. He came into asituation that was superior to Pitt's, where it took until his third recruiting seasons to bring in a class rated decently. Narduzzi's third seasons is not bad, considering. It would only be fair to allow Narduzzi time to improve.
Depends.
WVU has lost 20 games in the last 4 years. If we're recruiting at the level we currently are, would I be upset with that amount of losses? No. That's about where you are going to be at.
Would I not like the level of recruiting that is leading to that amount of losses? No, but I don't like it today either.
And WVU has never come close to making a CCG, let alone winning one. With a little more luck, talent, or depth. So I'm not sure why we would it we were at WVU's level, let alone have a chance at making the playoffs at WVU's level?
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There are two paths to improved recruiting.
1. The car salesman.
He comes in and turns it around right away. Think Taggart. Think Mario. Think Zook. Think Saban. Think Meyer.
2. The seed planter.
Doesn't have an elite personality. But plants the seed. Waters it over a few years. And then it grows. These guys need a few years working on a player to really recruit. You saw this with McElwain at UF. His first two classes were regarded as disappointments, despite the on the field success. His last year, while UF is losing miserably, is actually exploding. Top 10 class. And his 2019 class was insanely good.
Why was the recruiting improving despite all the losing? Because these were the kids McElwain had a few years to recruit, so the seeds were starting to bloom. You saw it at NC State last year as well.
These are the two paths to recruiting. If you don't have these staffs, you need to make changes to create one of these two staffs, if you hope to recruit. "Winning" isn't going to do it. There's literally zero evidence that winning does it. Staffs like Okie State and TCU have still never turned a recruiting corner, despite all that winning. And counter-examples like Washington fall apart when you actually examine them.
Narduzzi clearly isn't the car salesman recruiter, and this staff isn't that as well. That's beyond obvious at this point, and that's okay.
The concerning thing is that, in year 4, we should start to see evidence of him and/or this staff being the seed planter. Reaping the reward of working on these kids for years. And yet, there isn't a single bit of evidence of that.
How anybody can say that's expected, or that it's irrational to demand better than that, is beyond me. Kids Narduzzi has been recruiting for years in the area, just couldn't care less about him and his staff. And we have fans that think that is normal. We need a 12 win season for that not to be the case.
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anon_vmuicqnzlyp3u
Guest
Welcome to the club. I too was able to retire in my early 50's. I do a little consulting on the side now...It's good life. Congratulations on our earlier than normal retirement
You "don't care about partial classes"? Your premise ws that there was a jump in year 3 because of the 12 wins. Seeing that the class (here i examined just the top players, but as you said we have hashed out the whole class before) committed before the season proves the premise was completely wrong, again.
If a 3.3 average class is only "decent" (using your words) what is what HCPN is doing?
How was Washington such a good situation? They hadn't been good for 13 years. They went to fewer bowls and had about the same winning percentage. Peterson went there because of healthcare for his son.
Funny, the guy who doesn't have enough sense to realize that he's not required to support a school that puts football ahead of child endangerment - is the voice of reason in this thread.
This has been covered many times in many threads. Over the last 5 years Pitt's recruiting is ranked 34th. That includes a terrible class by Chryst and a transitional class. Based on the composite HCPN has elevated Pitt's recruiting. That's a fact not an opinion based on average ranking of Pitt's recruits.
Has Pitt been the 34th best team in the nation based off of play? 2 of HCPN first 3 years the answer is yes. If Pitt played a OOC schedule in line with other P5 schools- it's likely they go 10-3 twice and end up ranked both years.
Chryst left 2 areas in terrible condition- 1. The QB position and 2. The defense. HCPN has done a nice job patching the QB deficiency (other than last year) and the defense finally looks like a legitimate P5 defense. That's an outcome of elevated recruiting.
The ACC Coastal isn't an easy division by any means. Top to bottom it's one of the toughest as any team can typically beat anyone. UNC seems to have Pitt's number but it's not like they are steam rolling Pitt. Pitt has gone out of their way to blow a couple of those games. It's not a talent gap as much as not executing. Last year's PedSt game was more about early turnovers and suspensions than a talent gap as Pitt out gained and out first downed them.
Long story short, HCPN is recruiting well enough to win 10 games when the QB is good. They are not recruiting well enough to overcome turnovers against the schedule they play. It's really that simple. Based on their recruiting- Play an easier schedule and Pitt will be ranked most years. If you don't, expect more 8 win seasons.
This has been covered many times in many threads. Over the last 5 years Pitt's recruiting is ranked 34th. That includes a terrible class by Chryst and a transitional class. Based on the composite HCPN has elevated Pitt's recruiting. That's a fact not an opinion based on average ranking of Pitt's recruits.
Has Pitt been the 34th best team in the nation based off of play? 2 of HCPN first 3 years the answer is yes. If Pitt played a OOC schedule in line with other P5 schools- it's likely they go 10-3 twice and end up ranked both years.
Chryst left 2 areas in terrible condition- 1. The QB position and 2. The defense. HCPN has done a nice job patching the QB deficiency (other than last year) and the defense finally looks like a legitimate P5 defense. That's an outcome of elevated recruiting.
The ACC Coastal isn't an easy division by any means. Top to bottom it's one of the toughest as any team can typically beat anyone. UNC seems to have Pitt's number but it's not like they are steam rolling Pitt. Pitt has gone out of their way to blow a couple of those games. It's not a talent gap as much as not executing. Last year's PedSt game was more about early turnovers and suspensions than a talent gap as Pitt out gained and out first downed them.
Long story short, HCPN is recruiting well enough to win 10 games when the QB is good. They are not recruiting well enough to overcome turnovers against the schedule they play. It's really that simple. Based on their recruiting- Play an easier schedule and Pitt will be ranked most years. If you don't, expect more 8 win seasons.
Except all of this has already been addressed. If you take Narduzzi's full classes, starting at Fuente's first full classes, VT comes to the 25th ranked class, while we are the 41st. Miami comes to the 10th. They are actually only 20th in the overall composite talent calculator in that link, thanks to having two classes ranked in the 20's during that 4 year window. So you can see the huge jump they are taking under Richt.
The SBNation preview of 2017 Pitt kind of touched on this, when Connelly wondered if 2016 was going to be the year that Pitt fans look back at as the year that got away. This was the time period where there wasn't a lot of talent disparity.
The talent gap is growing. Pointing to the previous state of the ACC Coastal, and saying, "See, recruiting is fine," is missing the point some of us are making.
Pitt has a good shot of having a real good season thanks to recruiting. The defense is deep this year, and they will have swag. If you don't know what swag is, then how do you know what a teenager is looking for in a college football team? You want improved recruiting, but what is that exactly? 4* prospects based on recruiting sites and recruiting analysts? There is a reason why these people work for recruiting sites, and not an actual football program. I'm more interested in the players that the coaching staff has evaluated. Seriously, why do people care so much about star ratings? Once these kids actually see a Pitt defense playing at a high level.....then you'll start to see earlier commitments. They have been trying to change the culture of the entire program, and they're starting to achieve that. It takes time, it's not an overnight process. H2P
pittdan77
Athletic Director
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