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Trouble in paradise with Dejan

CJsE said:
umm no. If her Boss is texting her coworkers messages of a sexual nature about her, then it is 100% creating a bad working environment. Having the boss do this is essentially reinforcing that the behavior is acceptable in the workplace. Just because the person is unaware of the activity doesn't make it any less creepy, objectionable, or illegal. How hard is this to understand, women aren't going to work so that they can get "saved" by Mr. Right and can stop working. If you can't keep your "locker room" talk out of the office, then that's on you.

It amazes me how many people on here rushed to look up her personal pictures to justify sexual harassment in the work place. "Look, she went to a beach and wore a bikini and/or wore a dress with a plunging neckline in a setting that wasn't her job. She must be inviting her boss to say sexual shit about her."
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I didn't say it wasn't creepy or stupid, but it isn't sexual harassment. It is incredibly stupid, but that is another issue entirely.

Who said anything about "getting saved by Mr. Right"? This is about a personal craving for affirmation. She doesn't post that pic for any reason except affirmation on her looks. This isn't even a man vs. woman issue. There are guys who do the same exact thing.

But that isn't sexual harassment and her job is tied to her social media, so posting things like that reflects on her and the company. Many people keep those things completely separate. She doesn't because she is attractive and she obviously uses that to her advantage to build followers and get work. Good for her. However, her boss was dumb, but not criminal or liable. The problem is when women OR men use sexuality and attractiveness to gain position, but then complain when they are sexualized. We aren't talking about assault or even harassment, but private discussion without the "affected" party. Terribly stupid by a boss, but not harassment.
 
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recruitsreadtheseboards said:
You are not helping the debate.
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Trust me this has a lot to do with politics. I agree , but the truth remains , we are men, if we are straight men, we notice things about a woman and her beauty, it's nature. Now the rude nasty comments are out of line , but I notice face, butt, boobs physically first , but you don't have to go dirty thoughts with it. Men are not allowed to be men anymore in society, it's the truth , we need to have these debates and speak the truth etc
 
TD_istheman said:
Trust me this has a lot to do with politics. I agree , but the truth remains , we are men, if we are straight men, we notice things about a woman and her beauty, it's nature. Now the rude nasty comments are out of line , but I notice face, butt, boobs physically first , but you don't have to go dirty thoughts with it. Men are not allowed to be men anymore in society, it's the truth , we need to have these debates and speak the truth etc
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I’d argue that the definition of masculinity is being attracted to face, butt and boobs. There is nothing wrong with admiring those aspects of a woman. Where Dejan screwed up is texting a co-worker lewd comments.
 
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Jpripper88 said:
But that isn't sexual harassment and her job is tied to her social media, so posting things like that reflects on her and the company. Many people keep those things completely separate. She doesn't because she is attractive and she obviously uses that to her advantage to build followers and get work. Good for her. However, her boss was dumb, but not criminal or liable. The problem is when women OR men use sexuality and attractiveness to gain position, but then complain when they are sexualized. We aren't talking about assault or even harassment, but private discussion without the "affected" party. Terribly stupid by a boss, but not harassment.
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So if a bartender wears clothing that would embellish her physical assets (in order to garner higher tips) and her boss texts/says to the other wait staff lewd comments ( I would assume that Dejan wasn't implying about the quality of cotton in her clothing), you wouldn't call that harassment/hostile work environment?
 
HOF Coach said:
My Dad sat me down as I was about to begin my career after graduating from PITT. His #1 rule that he conveyed to me was that you never date anyone that you work with.

I asked him why not? His reply was simple and to the point,
"Because you don't sh*t where you eat!"

Advice taken...
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Excellent advise from Dad. I told both my kids who graduated from Pitt and are 30 and 32, in the workforce both working in great jobs the exact same thing!

Because if the relationship goes bad the guy is probably toast and could be charged with sexual harrassment.

Many years ago our division President ( old school guy) was telling us to be careful and follow all of the sexual harrassment guidelines.

He went on to tell us he was about to be accused of sexual harrassment back in the day. We said how did you get out of it? He said I married her?? Not a good solution but they've been married for 30 + years so I guess it worked for him. LOL!
Dont try that at home folks!

"it's five o'clock somewhere"
Signed: Mr buffett
Go Pitt & CSU Rams!
 
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Chem95 said:
So if a bartender wears clothing that would embellish her physical assets (in order to garner higher tips) and her boss texts/says to the other wait staff lewd comments ( I would assume that Dejan wasn't implying about the quality of cotton in her clothing), you wouldn't call that harassment/hostile work environment?
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This. There is a big difference between saying something like "Becky looked hot in that shirt" (still pretty inappropriate in a business setting) and "That shirt she wore gave me a hard-on" or "I couldn't stop staring at her tits all day". Everything is about a matter degrees and I can't really imagine that there are actual adults that can't figure out where the line is drawn. Try this little exercise if you are having difficulty figuring out where the line should be. Image your boss just texted you a comment about your daughter, if you find that distasteful then it probably isn't appropriate.

I mean, even the woman in question appears to have a moderate opinion on the subject and people are still acting like assholes about it.
but I want people to know there is a clear difference between telling your mentee she is beautiful/pretty/sexy/ complimenting a selfie (I didn’t mind that stuff), and describing her body/outfit in vivid detail to somebody else after working with her all day after you’d been fantasizing about it the whole time you were at work.
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Chem95 said:
So if a bartender wears clothing that would embellish her physical assets (in order to garner higher tips) and her boss texts/says to the other wait staff lewd comments ( I would assume that Dejan wasn't implying about the quality of cotton in her clothing), you wouldn't call that harassment/hostile work environment?
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Could it be create a hostile work environment? Sure. Would it have grounds for a legal action? Maybe and maybe not because first you have to prove the individual was treated in a hostile manner by a reasonable person. Then the burden of proof would be having to show it was discriminatory AND there was loss because of it. Now, because he was the boss, that could be enough to say there was no one else to go to or she was treated in a way that limited her opportunities because of her sex and/or other employees treated her differently because of the boss' behavior.

But, beyond the actual grounds, that doesn't change my opinion. It is stupid by DK (a guy I do not like and think is an absolute hack) but not necessarily criminal, harassment, abnormal, or wrong. Society has completely jumped the shark with this stuff.
 
DK is experiencing what a lot start ups do they have zero direction concerning hiring and policies. The people who start these companies free wheel only to realize early on oops we made a mistake. By DK stepping away from the day to day operation he will be out of the policy making and hiring. With social media anyone can accuse any one of sexual harassment and for some it happened and they should be terminated but for others in the end nothing happened. My old boss said if you want to sue go ahead but we have the means to tie it up in the courts for years your choice settle now or lose later.
 
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I keep my thoughts as pure as I can and I never speak sexual at work, have a great career work with 90% women , it's not hard to be respectful
 
CJsE said:
This. There is a big difference between saying something like "Becky looked hot in that shirt" (still pretty inappropriate in a business setting) and "That shirt she wore gave me a hard-on" or "I couldn't stop staring at her tits all day". Everything is about a matter degrees and I can't really imagine that there are actual adults that can't figure out where the line is drawn. Try this little exercise if you are having difficulty figuring out where the line should be. Image your boss just texted you a comment about your daughter, if you find that distasteful then it probably isn't appropriate.

I mean, even the woman in question appears to have a moderate opinion on the subject and people are still acting like assholes about it.
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Her opinion of: "I want people to know there is a clear difference between telling your mentee she is beautiful/pretty/sexy/ complimenting a selfie (I didn’t mind that stuff), and describing her body/outfit in vivid detail to somebody else after working with her all day after you’d been fantasizing about it the whole time you were at work." actually fits perfectly into the opposing argument and counter to the point you made above. If your boss texted you your daughter looked sexy or complimented her selfie with her tits practically falling out, there is no way that is ok to any Dad. It is also beyond stupid by your boss and any of it COULD be considered harassment/sexual harassment and creating a hostile work environment.

There isn't a "static line". There isn't really a "big difference" in "Becky looked hot in that shirt" or "That shirt she wore gave me a hard-on" if it makes Becky feel like she was sexually harassed. That is the good and bad of the line. It is also why people should be smarter than to ever share that with/in front of Becky or with any co-worker. The smartest would be to never share it with anyone. But no one is arguing it isn't dumb. What there is an argument for is whether she was actually hurt by these private conversations and whether she actually established an environment welcoming those kind of thoughts and comments.
 
CJsE said:
This. There is a big difference between saying something like "Becky looked hot in that shirt" (still pretty inappropriate in a business setting) and "That shirt she wore gave me a hard-on" or "I couldn't stop staring at her tits all day". Everything is about a matter degrees and I can't really imagine that there are actual adults that can't figure out where the line is drawn. Try this little exercise if you are having difficulty figuring out where the line should be. Image your boss just texted you a comment about your daughter, if you find that distasteful then it probably isn't appropriate.

I mean, even the woman in question appears to have a moderate opinion on the subject and people are still acting like assholes about it.
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I understand this and equality and all that. But the fact is, an attractive women is going to likely get bigger tips from men if she works in a service industry unless she is a complete ass. Same with an attractive man. An attractive woman or man is likely going to get better treatment at work, even to the point of raises and promotions. Again, it is biology. We are programmed to reproduce, we are not hermaphrodites. I am not saying that it should be a sexual free for all, I am saying there is so much prejudice based on looks that is under the radar, that it is just unavoidable. It is how we are wired. Again, if saying this makes me a bad guy, so be it, but it is the truth. So is it sexual harassment if I tip a good looking waitress 30% and a plain looking one 15%? Because that happens all the time.

Again, same with raises and promotions. Tall guys, attractive people, well proportioned women have a biological advantage over others.
 
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TD_istheman said:
I keep my thoughts as pure as I can and I never speak sexual at work, have a great career work with 90% women , it's not hard to be respectful
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Why do you have to keep your thoughts "pure", are we not allowed to "think" what we want anymore? Can't I "just think" about bending a co-worker over a chair and "doing it", as long as I don't say it or act on it? Imagine how many people will be fired and jailed if they ever invent mind reading technology? LOL.
 
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Pitt79 said:
Shouldn't a former Nitter be able to just accept sexual abuse for The Team! WTF is wrong with her?
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post of the thread. and that's saying something cause there is a lot of great posts in this thread.
 
Pitt79 said:
Why do you have to keep your thoughts "pure", are we not allowed to "think" what we want anymore? Can't I "just think" about bending a co-worker over a chair and "doing it", as long as I don't say it or act on it?
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As Jimmy Carter would put it, "lusting in his heart".
 
recruitsreadtheseboards said:
I understand this and equality and all that. But the fact is, an attractive women is going to likely get bigger tips from men if she works in a service industry unless she is a complete ass. Same with an attractive man. An attractive woman or man is likely going to get better treatment at work, even to the point of raises and promotions. Again, it is biology. We are programmed to reproduce, we are not hermaphrodites. I am not saying that it should be a sexual free for all, I am saying there is so much prejudice based on looks that is under the radar, that it is just unavoidable. It is how we are wired. Again, if saying this makes me a bad guy, so be it, but it is the truth. So is it sexual harassment if I tip a good looking waitress 30% and a plain looking one 15%? Because that happens all the time.

Again, same with raises and promotions. Tall guys, attractive people, well proportioned women have a biological advantage over others.
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Not sure if this an attempted troll....but the issue isn't that showing some skin garners more and larger tips (or the motives of the customers to grant such benefits) but that it doesn't give the manager the right to text/gossip to the rest of the employees comments regarding, not her attire, but her features.
 
Las Panteras said:
Wow....that sucks.

I know a few small business owners that have told me over a malted beverage that the answer is to avoid hiring women if at all possible.

Nobody wants that but these guys feel backed into a corner at times.
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This could happen too, Women and especially attractive women, not being hired so they don't ever get a chance to say #ME_TOO! LOL, I'd love to see that happening.
 
Chem95 said:
Not sure if this an attempted troll....but the issue isn't that showing some skin garners more and larger tips (or the motives of the customers to grant such benefits) but that it doesn't give the manager the right to text/gossip to the rest of the employees comments regarding, not her attire, but her features.
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It is just that sexism is implicit in all factions of life, even if it isn't intentional.
 
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Ski11585 said:
How dare these women have the temerity to not put up with your bullshit anymore. The nerve of them.
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I tried to find a short blurb I read a few weeks back written by a woman (I think at Vanity Fair?) that expressed in a few short sentences that above all there must be some nuance to these accusations. No judgement either way, just a very reasoned approach.
 
Honestly, two hugely important things were touched on in this thread in today's times.

1.) Difference between flirting and harassment is what the guy looks like...

2.) Some women HAPPILY flaunt their looks in order to climb the ladder and reap the rewards. THEN they cry when comments are made... that is wrong.

This is simply about words and harrassmemt. In now way am I talking about actual sexual assault because that is never okay.

With words, I just hate the PC "offended by everything" culture we have created.
 
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pitt-girl said:
I tried to find a short blurb I read a few weeks back written by a woman (I think at Vanity Fair?) that expressed in a few short sentences that above all there must be some nuance to these accusations. No judgement either way, just a very reasoned approach.
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Explain if you don't mind. Obviously your opinion would give this discussion some definite insight.
 
pitt-girl said:
I tried to find a short blurb I read a few weeks back written by a woman (I think at Vanity Fair?) that expressed in a few short sentences that above all there must be some nuance to these accusations. No judgement either way, just a very reasoned approach.
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I have a larger response to this that I want to think out first, but I do generally agree. There does need to be nuance. My (admittedly short-tempered) replies come when I tend to see people in positions of power/authority trying to act like the aggrieved party because a group in a less powerful position is trying to speak out about inappropriate/offensive behavior.
 
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Yes and I find it of value. DK is hard to take at times and some believe he is a first class clown. At times he lends insight into situations and players that give one a peek behind the scenes. But he has made mistakes and this is one of them. He needs to write as that is his best use. Let his wife and someone else hire, set policy and keep the business out of harms way. I think he hired her as a mentor type relationship and she was not very talented. He also has some issues with his Pens writer Kathy Brown but credit him with seeing the coming demise of newspapers as a media in free fall and using the current platform to monetize his career.
 
PantherO said:
Sorry, I never made it above the neck. OK, does that make me bad? If the girl is going to show that much stuff and then get offended when people make comments, then she is a little crazy. I am guessing she didn't mind until she got canned. And deservedly so based on what I read.
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Agreed, if you want the attention and the Instagram likes... Gotta be able to take the heat
 
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chethejet said:
Yes and I find it of value. DK is hard to take at times and some believe he is a first class clown. At times he lends insight into situations and players that give one a peek behind the scenes. But he has made mistakes and this is one of them. He needs to write as that is his best use. Let his wife and someone else hire, set policy and keep the business out of harms way. I think he hired her as a mentor type relationship and she was not very talented. He also has some issues with his Pens writer Kathy Brown but credit him with seeing the coming demise of newspapers as a media in free fall and using the current platform to monetize his career.
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The coming demise of newspapers is in its second or third decade. DK essentially is attempting to run his own newspaper. That's a tall order and he is currently seeing the challenges of doing that. I do think his problems are fixable. My question is does he really need all his reporters? Do they add sufficient value to his site? Are they bringing in more subscribers?
 
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Pitt79 said:
Why do you have to keep your thoughts "pure", are we not allowed to "think" what we want anymore? Can't I "just think" about bending a co-worker over a chair and "doing it", as long as I don't say it or act on it? Imagine how many people will be fired and jailed if they ever invent mind reading technology? LOL.
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Lol
 
Where DK got me and why I subscribed is well Jason Mackey and then Josh Yohe was covering the Pens along with DK, and also DK's coverage of the Pirates and his insistence of filtering through the BS and garbage by that management group is second to none.

What I like most about his Pirate coverage is it does not just stop at "Bob Nutting's cheap" narrative. Yeah, we know that. But DK is all over the GM and scouting department for the absolutely horrid job they have done in drafting and developing home grown talent. Just horrible. Everyone else starts and stops with the "cheap" angle, but this is another thing that gets little pressure because fans and the media just can't get past the ownership. Then DK also exposed some of ridiculous and ludicrous training stuff, "HOKAHEY" which had nothing to do with teaching a team that is so fundamentally bereft with baseball fundamentals but treating them like they are in the marines.

That is why I subscribed. DK is actually a good writer. Obviously a horrible manager and boss.
 
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recruitsreadtheseboards said:
I understand this and equality and all that. But the fact is, an attractive women is going to likely get bigger tips from men if she works in a service industry unless she is a complete ass. Same with an attractive man. An attractive woman or man is likely going to get better treatment at work, even to the point of raises and promotions. Again, it is biology. We are programmed to reproduce, we are not hermaphrodites. I am not saying that it should be a sexual free for all, I am saying there is so much prejudice based on looks that is under the radar, that it is just unavoidable. It is how we are wired. Again, if saying this makes me a bad guy, so be it, but it is the truth. So is it sexual harassment if I tip a good looking waitress 30% and a plain looking one 15%? Because that happens all the time.

Again, same with raises and promotions. Tall guys, attractive people, well proportioned women have a biological advantage over others.
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That's an interesting theory. Seems the opposite is true as well, even more so!
https://www.nbcnews.com/better/careers/do-beautiful-people-really-make-more-money-n724351
 
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