Watched the Big East 30 for 30 again last night

[JD1976]

If you are a Pitt basketball fan, especially one who remembers the 80s, there’s no better trip down memory lane.

*The coaches: the personalities in that league were larger than life. In 1987, the roster was Thompson, Carnesecca, Carlisemo, Boeheim, Massamino, Calhoun, Pitino, Jim O’Brien and Evans. Only the last two didn’t have HOF resumes. It’s amazing that Pitt had the relative success it did in the mid to late 80s and got the players they did, but as was discussed in the documentary, the high school kids were basically in love with the Big East because it was a TV league and played in NBA arenas (for the most part). Players were actually recruiting guys they knew to come to the Big East even if it was to another school.

*Ewing: The racism he endured was sickening, but I remember how hated Thompson and his teams were so I guess I understand the undertones, even though the stuff Ewing put up with (bananas being thrown, racist banners, etc) are hard to fathom now. The highlights of him blocking shots that were a foot above the rim may never be seen again. How about the ‘82 title game where he had like 6 goaltending calls because Thompson told him to just block everything even if it counted for 2 points. So intimidating.

*Gavitt: What a leader. He didn’t give a damn about criticism and had a vision for the league, including getting the league tourney to MSG. I loved how he pushed the teams to leave their dumpy gyms and play in NBA arenas. Hell, Pitt used to play 3 or so games a year at the Civic Arena. I remembered Gavitt as the color analyst on the Saturday noon games with Mike Gorman. As a 9 and 10 year old I couldn’t wait for those games to come on.

*The history lesson on Pitt’s addition to the Big East was interesting, including the part about Paterno being approached about joining the Big East, but the Catholic schools objecting because PSU had no basketball history and wasn’t in a typical market. I think they said the vote was either split or 5-to-3 for inviting PSU. It was also the beginning of the split between the basketball schools and the football schools. They made it seem like Pitt was the back up choice to PSU in the doc, but the whole story wasn’t explained clearly.

It was a great watch again even though I had watched it a few years back.

 

[Slick Manager of Champs]

Yes it was fun in the 80s but ultimately proved to be the wrong decision in the long run joining the big East. Should have formed the all sports conference instead.

 

[CrazyPaco]

If you are a Pitt basketball fan, especially one who remembers the 80s, there’s no better trip down memory lane.

*The coaches: the personalities in that league were larger than life. In 1987, the roster was Thompson, Carnesecca, Carlisemo, Boeheim, Massamino, Calhoun, Pitino, Jim O’Brien and Evans. Only the last two didn’t have HOF resumes. It’s amazing that Pitt had the relative success it did in the mid to late 80s and got the players they did, but as was discussed in the documentary, the high school kids were basically in love with the Big East because it was a TV league and played in NBA arenas (for the most part). Players were actually recruiting guys they knew to come to the Big East even if it was to another school.

*Ewing: The racism he endured was sickening, but I remember how hated Thompson and his teams were so I guess I understand the undertones, even though the stuff Ewing put up with (bananas being thrown, racist banners, etc) are hard to fathom now. The highlights of him blocking shots that were a foot above the rim may never be seen again. How about the ‘82 title game where he had like 6 goaltending calls because Thompson told him to just block everything even if it counted for 2 points. So intimidating.

*Gavitt: What a leader. He didn’t give a damn about criticism and had a vision for the league, including getting the league tourney to MSG. I loved how he pushed the teams to leave their dumpy gyms and play in NBA arenas. Hell, Pitt used to play 3 or so games a year at the Civic Arena. I remembered Gavitt as the color analyst on the Saturday noon games with Mike Gorman. As a 9 and 10 year old I couldn’t wait for those games to come on.

*The history lesson on Pitt’s addition to the Big East was interesting, including the part about Paterno being approached about joining the Big East, but the Catholic schools objecting because PSU had no basketball history and wasn’t in a typical market. I think they said the vote was either split or 5-to-3 for inviting PSU. It was also the beginning of the split between the basketball schools and the football schools. They made it seem like Pitt was the back up choice to PSU in the doc, but the whole story wasn’t explained clearly.

It was a great watch again even though I had watched it a few years back.

Pitt was invited to prevent Syracuse and BC from leaving the Big East and joining Paterno's conference. Mostly it was a defensive invite that ended Paterno's threat to the fledgling Big East. No one really wanted to get in bed with Paterno, but the rest of the East would have felt they had to follow Pitt into the Paterno conference.

 

[JD1976]

Pitt was invited to prevent Syracuse and BC from leaving the Big East and joining Paterno's conference. It was a defensive invite.

Right, but I guess I was fuzzy on the fact that Penn State was considered for an invite to the Big East first. Was it only after not joining the Big East that Paterno conceived the idea of his all-Sports Conference or was this his idea all along going back to the late 70s?

 

[BFo8]

Yes it was fun in the 80s but ultimately proved to be the wrong decision in the long run joining the big East. Should have formed the all sports conference instead.

Right, and that conference would’ve been poached and swallowed up by now and Pitt might be on the outside looking in.

 

[Pittx9]

I can't say I have any complaints about Pitt's history. They joined the big east, which became the best basketball conference maybe ever. In football and basketball it made the wvu rivalry an in conference one. The only downfall was Pitt and psu not being in the same conference, or not both being independents. Flash forward to now, I wouldn't even want that.

Then after the big east faltered because of football, Pitt goes to the ACC. It's a great conference... in both football and basketball. Some don't like it because of the good ol' southern boy network there but there were people angry about the supposed big east Mafia conspiracies.

We have a home now that allowed our football program to remain in a P5 conference and I certainly wouldn't trade away the big east basketball years. I do miss the big east tournament but I think it all worked out pretty well in the end.

 

[Slick Manager of Champs]

Right, and that conference would’ve been poached and swallowed up by now and Pitt might be on the outside looking in.

maybe, maybe not. In the 80's, the East could stand toe to toe with the Big 10. Miami & Vtech probably would have still joined. Maybe the East would have been the one doing the raiding.

 

[wbrpanther]

Yes it was fun in the 80s but ultimately proved to be the wrong decision in the long run joining the big East. Should have formed the all sports conference instead.

Yeah. We all could have been Paterno toadies and treated UPS like beloved fearless leaders.

If Paterno wanted to form an Eastern conference before his hoops program was turned down by the BE that would have been one thing. But he wanted to get the fruits of being in a conference for his hoops team while controlling his share of the revenue for his football program. It doesn't work that way outside the UPS bubble.

 

[wbrpanther]

Right, and that conference would’ve been poached and swallowed up by now and Pitt might be on the outside looking in.

Not really. If an all Eastern conference would have started before the BE started, BC and Cuse would have been in it. A conference of Pitt, UPS, BC, Cuse, WVU, Temple, Rutgers AND MIAMI would have flourished at that time.

 

[Slick Manager of Champs]

Yeah. We all could have been Paterno toadies and treated UPS like beloved fearless leaders.

If Paterno wanted to form an Eastern conference before his hoops program was turned down by the BE that would have been one thing. But he wanted to get the fruits of being in a conference for his hoops team while controlling his share of the revenue for his football program. It doesn't work that way outside the UPS bubble.

Well, if we had an effective AD at the time, he could have negotiated a better deal with Paterno. Sell him on taking down the Big East and elevating his basketball program.. Go over his head to the president at the time, or someone on their board.

Yeah Paterno was an a-hole in his original demands. But Bozik was just as stubborn. Cooler heads should have prevailed and a settlement could have been reached that would have benefited all parties. Instead everyone took their ball and went elsewhere.

 

[JD1976]

Not really. If an all Eastern conference would have started before the BE started, BC and Cuse would have been in it. A conference of Pitt, UPS, BC, Cuse, WVU, Temple, Rutgers AND MIAMI would have flourished at that time.

You also had a good pool of expansion candidates in Va Tech, South Carolina, Louisville, Cincinnati and many other independents that made up the old Metro Conference in basketball.

That said, I wouldn’t trade Pitt’s path. Sure Big East football died at the end, but it was a good football conference for 10 years with Miami leading the way and certainly Pitt had a great run in hoops. Finally landing in the ACC was a great outcome.

 

[PittAU]

My idea in the mid to late 80s was to secure the entire coast:

BC
Syracuse
State Pen
Pitt
Temple (possibly)
WVU
Va. Tech
South Carolina
Florida State
Miami

 

[JD1976]

My idea in the mid to late 80s was to secure the entire coast:

BC
Syracuse
State Pen
Pitt
Temple (possibly)
WVU
Va. Tech
South Carolina
Florida State
Miami

Florida State is a good call. Most people forget they didn’t join the ACC until the early 90s.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Right, but I guess I was fuzzy on the fact that Penn State was considered for an invite to the Big East first. Was it only after not joining the Big East that Paterno conceived the idea of his all-Sports Conference or was this his idea all along going back to the late 70s?

Paterno was always thinking about it...running his own conference as commissioner. He wanted to rule the northeast as pope and king. It would have been a terrible arrangement as he construed it for everyone but Penn State. No football revenue sharing, only revenue sharing for basketball, unarguably one of PSU's weakest sports. Shocking, I know.

PSU left the Eastern 8 (renamed now to the Atlantic 10) in a underhanded way around '79 and pissed everyone off and then went about trying to form this all-sports conference. No one trusted or wanted to get in bed with Paterno, but the gravity was strong if the dominoes started falling and the first and most necessary domino was Pitt.

When the Big East was forming in 1978-79 (79 was the first season), Penn State was considered but didn't have the support. I don't know how much PSU actually lobbied for that. Then Paterno pushed his conference and Pitt was invited to the Big East in 1981 to keep the newly formed Big East intact and that killed any chance for Paterno's conference. Pitt was a compromise between the football and basketball schools, and they worried about Pitt's football school status, but being urban with fairly respectable hoops program made Pitt more palatable. Penn State then lobbied to get into the Big East and was denied because the basketball only schools didn't want them. Penn State then crawled back to the now renamed Atlantic 10 in '82. PSU tried a third time to get into the Big East as well I believe later in the 80s circa '86 or '87 but was again denied again because the hoop schools still didn't want them. They then sought out the Big Ten, and they only got in there because they went over the athletic director's heads to lobby the presidents. The Big Ten's coaches and athletic directors overwhelmingly hated it. In fact, I think only one athletic director voted in favor of them, who was a PSU alumnus, but it went to the Presidents. Look how long it took the Big Ten to work them into a schedule for sports...years. The Big Ten AD's refused to schedule them and forced their basketball programs to play as an independent (the A10 kicked them out when they announced their Big Ten move) for a year, maybe two....and basketball programs take no time to adjust schedules for, as is evidence by every single other conference expansion that has ever occurred.

 

[JD1976]

Paterno was always thinking about it...running his own conference as commissioner. He wanted to rule the northeast as pope and king. It would have been a terrible arrangement as he construed it for everyone but Penn State. No football revenue sharing, only revenue sharing for basketball, unarguably one of PSU's weakest sports. Shocking, I know.

PSU left the Eastern 8 (renamed now to the Atlantic 10) in a underhanded way around '79 and pissed everyone off and then went about trying to form this all-sports conference. No one trusted or wanted to get in bed with Paterno, but the gravity was strong if the dominoes started falling and the first and most necessary domino was Pitt.

When the Big East was forming in 1978-79 (79 was the first season), Penn State was considered but didn't have the support. I don't know how much PSU actually lobbied for that. Then Paterno pushed his conference and Pitt was invited to the Big East in 1981 to keep the newly formed Big East intact and that killed any chance for Paterno's conference. Pitt was a compromise between the football and basketball schools, and they worried about Pitt's football school status, but being urban with fairly respectable hoops program made Pitt more palatable. Penn State then lobbied to get into the Big East and was denied because the basketball only schools didn't want them. Penn State then crawled back to the now renamed Atlantic 10 in '82. PSU tried a third time to get into the Big East as well I believe later in the 80s circa '86 or '87 but was again denied again because the hoop schools still didn't want them. They then sought out the Big Ten, and they only got in there because they went over the athletic director's heads to lobby the presidents. The Big Ten's coaches and athletic directors overwhelmingly hated it. In fact, I think only one athletic director voted in favor of them, who was a PSU alumnus, but it went to the Presidents. Look how long it took the Big Ten to work them into a schedule for sports...years. The Big Ten AD's refused to schedule them and forced their basketball programs to play as an independent (the A10 kicked them out when they announced their Big Ten move) for a year, maybe two....and basketball programs take no time to adjust schedules for, as is evidence by every single other conference expansion that has ever occurred.

Great history lesson. Thanks Paco.

 

[paulbl99]

You also had a good pool of expansion candidates in Va Tech, South Carolina, Louisville, Cincinnati and many other independents that made up the old Metro Conference in basketball.

That said, I wouldn’t trade Pitt’s path. Sure Big East football died at the end, but it was a good football conference for 10 years with Miami leading the way and certainly Pitt had a great run in hoops. Finally landing in the ACC was a great outcome.

Paterno’s idea became a plan for an Eastren Seaboard Conference which for sure he was looking at South Carolina and Fla St.
Maybe VT and the U as well????

Would have been a formidable conference.
Would it have been poached, one could argue that but recall it was State College moving to the Big 10 which touched off all the raids.

 

[Pitt79]

Great documentary! I miss the BE. Sorry, being a highly competitive team in the BE is way more enjoyable as a fan than what we see now. The BE for a time was either #1 or #2 basketball conference every year. They where better than the ACC more often than not. Obviously, the football thing killed the greatest college basketball conference ever. It was almost like a regional NBA-like major league, with big time TV in pro style arenas, when all these other college leagues where like hillbillies with peach baskets.