OT: Pens Epitaph Of Sorts....the core!!

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

GMs in all sports have been making that mistake since, well, the beginning of organized sports. While Bennett may or may not ever become a good player, there is very little chance at this point that Dupuis ever becomes anything more than a bit part ever again, at least on a good team. If he's playing on a top two line next season this will have been a horrible off season for the Pens.

Someone in that organization needs to understand that sometimes you have to throw the young guys into the deep end of the pool and see if they can swim. Sometimes they can't, and you move on. But sometimes they can, and you'll never find that out if you are afraid to play them.

That's exactly what I am saying Joe. There is no downside to playing these kids in the positions they are supposed to play, at least for the bulk or the regular season. They have upside. Blake Comeau, Pascal Dupuis, Daniel Winnick, Chris Kunitz do not. They are on entry level contracts which makes them cheaper and cap friendly. They hopefully inject enthusiasm. And if the WORST thing is, they fail, well at least you know where the player stands with relationship to their ability to play at this level. There is another danger, "dying on the vine". I believe prospects when continually pushed down or into minimalized rules, well...expire. They lose their edge. They seem to lose their drive. And they become busts.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I guess it just depends on one's view of Bennett's ceiling. I agree that we know what Dupuis is and Bennett's profile is less well defined. Also, who knows, with more responsibility and an off-season to heal and get stronger, maybe Beau will finally blossom? I sure hope so.

I just think a healthy Dupuis is most likely a significantly better player than Bennett is right now or likely will ever become.

People say "play the young guys," and in spirit I am with those folks. However, Pittsburgh made the playoffs this past year by the hair on its chinny chin chin. What happens if we play all these young guys and they aren't ready and it puts us on the wrong side of that razor's edge? Will people be understanding because of how much we developed young players?

Ha! Yeah, right.

I think people want things both ways.

Also, I think the onus is on Bennett to earn more playing time, not on Pittsburgh to gift it to him because of how highly he was once drafted.

Doc, really is there that big of difference between missing the playoffs and going out in Rd 1 in 5 games? In Toronto yeah maybe. In Pittsburgh, no. And of course there is that bonus of the draft lottery..................well if you have a 1st rd pick. Yeah, sometimes you got tinker, even if it means a year of stepping backwards.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Let me phrase it another way: if you did not know where Beau Bennett was drafted, what has he shown you – actually shown you on the ice – that would cause you to demand that he sees more playing time and in a more prominent role?

I say this with regard to college football recruiting all the time and I feel this way about professional sports as well: once you are in the show your pedigree means nothing. It just doesn't.

Tyler Johnson of Tampa Bay was undrafted coming out of juniors and one could argue that he has been the league's best player in the playoffs so far this season.

Tampa doesn't keep saying to the kid, "Hey, nice game again last night but you were an undrafted free-agent so I'm sorry but you're going to have to play on the fourth line when we play you at all."

So why should it work in reverse for Pittsburgh?

I cannot emphasize this enough. I am sincerely rooting for Bennett to blossom. It would make this team significantly better. However, he had to earn it through his play on the ice in whatever role he is assigned.

Gifting him a top six role that he may never be able to fill is a really bad idea.

That does not mean that they should not play young players. I am all for playing a very young Olli Maatta and Derrick Pouliot. However, that is because those guys are clearly good enough to play in this league and have proven it through their play in a variety of roles. Bennett has done no such thing and therefore he still has to earn it.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

As I said, Beau Bennett is more Milan Kraft/Robert Dome than Markus Naslund. I think he settles on being Aleksey Morozov. But honestly, do you think you are going to get the best from him playing an off wing on the 4th line?

Beau Bennett is to gritty, tough hockey player as the Sahara Desert is to the Ofeefenokee Swamp. We know that, he is soft. But he also has sklls. Again, is he the difference between Conference Finals and what happened this year? Of course not. As for Maata and Pouiliot, they were put in the exact roles they needed to be to excel. And I know Pouliot would make some heinous giveaways and still get another shift, the next shift.

Beau Bennett is more than Beau Bennett, but a cautionary tale to himself and other young forwards. And I NEVER use the line just because the team is playing so and so, isn't that proof that X young player is not capable? No. From an organization that loaded up on defensemen yet felt compelled to sign Scuderi, to playing Engelland over Despres, etc.....the bosses aren't always right.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Doc, how many games has Beau Bennett played in his correct wing (RW) on a top 6 role? How many? I would say no more than 3. So how do we even know.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Doc, really is there that big of difference between missing the playoffs and going out in Rd 1 in 5 games? In Toronto yeah maybe. In Pittsburgh, no. And of course there is that bonus of the draft lottery..................well if you have a 1st rd pick. Yeah, sometimes you got tinker, even if it means a year of stepping backwards.

Right, but again you are saying that with the benefit of hindsight. That's like me saying, "Now that I think about it, the Penguins should have drafted Jonathan Toews instead of Jordan Staal."

Well, no shitt.

The Penguins did not know in January that their entire D would be hurt down the stretch and into the playoffs and they had no clue that they would go out in five games in the first round.

Had they known that ahead of time there's no way they would've traded their first round pick for David Perron or their second and fourth round picks for Daniel Winnik.

And you can bet your ass that if they had insisted on jamming the square peg into a round hole that is Beau Bennett in the top six and they had missed the playoffs by one point, people would've screamed bloody murder about their stubbornness and inability to change directions.

Once again, people like to have it both ways. Dan Bylsma had a pretty rigid system that leaned heavily on stretch passes and driving the net. Incidentally Minnesota and Chicago each run that exact same system and I think there is a very good chance that the winner of that series is going to win the Stanley Cup. However, for that belief system he was considered stubborn and unwilling/unable to make in-game adjustments.

His successor, Mike Johnston had a more multiple approach really in all three zones but particularly with respect to his breakouts, and for that, people decry this team's lack of identity.

You simply cannot win when you do not win. People will always find a scapegoat and an/or an alibi.

Had Pittsburgh, with all of its injuries, played a bunch of young players and missed the playoffs, there is no way in hell people would have been understanding about it. They would have wailed and moaned about wasting yet another year of the Malkin/Crosby era and they would've reasoned that once you get into the playoffs anything can happen. I would be inclined to agree with those people. Then again, I don't I have the luxury of making my predictions based on hindsight.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Right, but again you are saying that with the benefit of hindsight. That's like me saying, "Now that I think about it, the Penguins should have drafted Jonathan Toews instead of Jordan Staal."

Well, no shitt.

The Penguins did not know in January that their entire D would be hurt down the stretch and into the playoffs and they had no clue that they would go out in five games in the first round.

Had they known that ahead of time there's no way they would've traded their first round pick for David Perron or their second and fourth round picks for Daniel Winnik.

And you can bet your ass that if they had insisted on jamming the square peg into a round hole that is Beau Bennett in the top six and they had missed the playoffs by one point, people would've screamed bloody murder about their stubbornness and inability to change directions.

Once again, people like to have it both ways. Dan Bylsma had a pretty rigid system that leaned heavily on stretch passes and driving the net. Incidentally Minnesota and Chicago each run that exact same system and I think there is a very good chance that the winner of that series is going to win the Stanley Cup. However, for that belief system he was considered stubborn and unwilling/unable to make in-game adjustments.

His successor, Mike Johnston had a more multiple approach really in all three zones but particularly with respect to his breakouts, and for that, people decry this team's lack of identity.

You simply cannot win when you do not win. People will always find a scapegoat and an/or an alibi.

Had Pittsburgh, with all of its injuries, played a bunch of young players and missed the playoffs, there is no way in hell people would have been understanding about it. They would have wailed and moaned about wasting yet another year of the Malkin/Crosby era and they would've reasoned that once you get into the playoffs anything can happen. I would be inclined to agree with those people. Then again, I don't I have the luxury of making my predictions based on hindsight.

Okay.........but that is not part of the debate. And just like Geno and Sid are paid to score goals (no matter who is checking them) the Penguin management/.coaching staff are paid to make decisions that is best for their team, not worrying about what fans think.

I am not sure what your point is, except that always tired narrative of some Pantherlair message board posters of "SHOOT THE MESSENGER" maybe they will then go away.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Doc, how many games has Beau Bennett played in his correct wing (RW) on a top 6 role? How many? I would say no more than 3. So how do we even know.

I have no idea how many games Bennett has played right wing in the top six? I don't care how many games he has played there either.

I do know – through looking it up – that the kid has played 120 NHL regular season and postseason games and he shown very little in those games. He has averaged approximately one point for every three games.

What I cannot figure out is when Beau Bennett became Connor McDavid? I guess I am just old school and believe that it is the prospect's responsibility to earn his spot, not the organization's responsibility to gift it to him.

I have a friend that was convinced that Milan Kraft was going to be a great NHL player. And he was always upset with the Penguins for how they misused their former first round pick. He believed that the Czech center should've been on the first line with Jagr.

Personally, I never saw why he felt so strongly about that. I used to ask him, isn't it possible that the team simply missed on the kid and he simply isn't good enough? He refused to accept that reasoning and believed that it was how Pittsburgh used him that was the problem.

I'm beginning to think that Beau Bennett is the new Milan Kraft.

First-round picks – particularly late first-round picks – bust all the time. Just go through the Penguins' draft history alone and you will see a litany of who's-that type of players.

Bennett could not stay healthy at the University of Denver and he has not been unable to stay healthy as a Pittsburgh Penguin. They definitely rushed the kid through the minors and that hurt his development even further.

I do not believe that the key to Pittsburgh's success going forward is to find a top six role for Beau Bennett. It is fine if other people feel differently but I think those people are wrong.

Also, I would take the development of the young forwards that they do prize in the system slowly and surely. I would make sure that they were ready to compete at this level before I threw them directly into the fire as they once did Bennett.

My guess, based on reports and some decidedly amateur scouting is that Sundquist is probably ready for a bottom six role and Kapanen probably needs another year to get bigger and stronger.

The luxury with the latter prospect is he comes from a family that has plenty of experience at this level so they will not allow the team to rush development and stunt his growth. He will be extremely well advised on all facets of the game.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

So, to recap..
The argument is this fragile, often injured, player who isn't contributing in his playing time so far...

Needs more playing time, ahead of more productive two way players,
Because, if he can't produce against opponents weaker lines... Clearly, he'll do better against opponents stronger lines...
Assuming he's not on the ir, again.

Say the word, bust, and move forward looking for winger depth.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Pretty much.

 

[runshadyrun]

So, to recap..
The argument is this fragile, often injured, player who isn't contributing in his playing time so far...

Needs more playing time, ahead of more productive two way players,
Because, if he can't produce against opponents weaker lines... Clearly, he'll do better against opponents stronger lines...
Assuming he's not on the ir, again.

Say the word, bust, and move forward looking for winger depth.

AGREE! He has had opportunities, has not shown the drive, grit, strength and will to warrant moving to a top six position. I also agree with a previous post, send him to Ontario to spend the offseason with Gary Roberts . Along with Megna, Sunquist and Kapanen

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

AGREE! He has had opportunities, has not shown the drive, grit, strength and will to warrant moving to a top six position. I also agree with a previous post, send him to Ontario to spend the offseason with Gary Roberts . Along with Megna, Sunquist and Kapanen

Why do that? Just cut him. The hockey expert on this board suggests he is a waste. So why waste the time and effort? Same with all our young guys.

I got an idea, let's just play all the good players and if we don't have enough, let's trade our bad players for other teams good players until we can fill out the roster with all stars so other teams will leave our superstars alone and focus on other players so the $18 million we have invested him can turn into post season production against good teams.

I wish I thought of this earlier. Someone please call Jim Rutherford with this idea.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

So, to recap..
The argument is this fragile, often injured, player who isn't contributing in his playing time so far...

Needs more playing time, ahead of more productive two way players,
Because, if he can't produce against opponents weaker lines... Clearly, he'll do better against opponents stronger lines...
Assuming he's not on the ir, again.

Say the word, bust, and move forward looking for winger depth.

Of course that's not what the argument is, and you are smart enough to understand that. So I wonder why you feel the need to pretend otherwise?

The argument is that the Penguins spent all season playing guys on the top two line who didn't produce and who are clearly on the downside of their careers, so why not try a younger guy in that role that at least has the potential to become a good player, instead of constantly playing that younger player out of position in a role that his game is ill suited for. Unless your idea of a productive player is Chris Kunitz scoring two goals in the last 35 or so games of the season while playing the whole time on either the first or the second line and being on the first power play unit that whole time. Which, of course, would be absurd.

I have no idea if Bennett will ever be a decent NHL player or not. And for the record, neither do you. But I do know that guys like Kunitz, Spalling and Comeau pretty much failed the whole season long when playing a role that Bennett may have been able to play. It's not like I am suggesting moving successful players into lesser roles to clear the way for a question mark, I'm suggesting moving out guys who are sucking and giving someone else a chance. If you really think that someone like Chris Kunitz was a productive player for the Penguins this year then it's no wonder we disagree.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Of course that's not what the argument is, and you are smart enough to understand that. So I wonder why you feel the need to pretend otherwise?

The argument is that the Penguins spent all season playing guys on the top two line who didn't produce and who are clearly on the downside of their careers, so why not try a younger guy in that role that at least has the potential to become a good player, instead of constantly playing that younger player out of position in a role that his game is ill suited for. Unless your idea of a productive player is Chris Kunitz scoring two goals in the last 35 or so games of the season while playing the whole time on either the first or the second line and being on the first power play unit that whole time. Which, of course, would be absurd.

I have no idea if Bennett will ever be a decent NHL player or not. And for the record, neither do you. But I do know that guys like Kunitz, Spalling and Comeau pretty much failed the whole season long when playing a role that Bennett may have been able to play. It's not like I am suggesting moving successful players into lesser roles to clear the way for a question mark, I'm suggesting moving out guys who are sucking and giving someone else a chance. If you really think that someone like Chris Kunitz was a productive player for the Penguins this year then it's no wonder we disagree.

I wasn't even going to dignify his typical snarky post with a response. Of course, as I said to Doc, the comments aren't just about Beau Bennett, it is about the Pens Modus Operandi for a few years which has caused them to be in the predicament they were in. We saw Simon Despres make a mistake or a bad game and be benched for 7-10 games, where Derek Engelland can be horrid in those 7-10 games and not lose a shift. Is Depres the next Shea Weber, of course not. But there is no doubt his development as a Penguin was stunted. Same with Bennett.

Talk about strawman arguments of Bennett not succeeding against marginal competition so moving him up against better competition would be ludicrous sounds good, but what it also leaves out that Bennett would be playing with better and more like minded players and perhaps that would bring out the better of him. Like I asked, how many games as a Penguin did he play on his natural wing in a top 6 role? Not many.

My cautionary tale doesn't apply to just Beau Bennett who I also admit might be a bust. But Kapanen and Sundquist, who are talented, cheap and have upside rather than some 30 year $2 million winger who can go up and down his wing and produce a goal every solstice. But hey, since I posted and I seem to be a lynchpin for some, they feel they have to discredit whatever I say.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Bennett has shown me literally nothing, except an ability to get injured a lot.

I'm not worried about him hurting the pens elsewhere. Really at all.
4 goals in 49 games.
Which means in Kunitz worst year he was 3 times more likely to score a goal than Bennett.

If beau was half the player an over the hill Kunitz is... I'd give him a chance. He's not.

I'll discredit the idea he needs more playing time regardless of who says it.
There's a specific reason Rutherford who sucks said he should have been left in the minors and the made trades for marginal at best wingers like Perron, spalling, and winnik...and it's not because they thing beau needs top line playing time.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I think the fact that there is this much handwringing about whether or not we should have played an over the hill Chris Kunitz, a couple of bottom six players like Blake Comeau or Nick Spaling, or a likely bust like Beau Bennett, CONCLUSIVELY DEMONSTRATES just how little depth Pittsburgh has at forward – which has been my primary point all along.

Everyone wants to blame 87 and 71 for everything. However, hockey is a game of depth and if you look at the teams that are still playing but all have it. Pittsburgh as for good forwards: 87, 71, 72, and 16. That is the entirety of their list and that is a major problem.

When you compound that issue with the fact that three of their top four defenseman were also injured, not to mention Pascal Dupuis – who I also think is a much better forward than most people give him credit for, is it any wonder why this team had the fourth worst record in the entire league after March 1?

They did not underachieve, they flat out stunk - just like most other teams would have if they were similarly decimated by injuries to so many good players.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I get it when people say that Malkin and Crosby are two of the best players in the world and two of the most highly compensated players as well. Therefore, they needed to play better.

I get that part, I really do. I even partially agree with it.

However, what people seem to be slow to understand/accept is that even if they had played phenomenally well, it would not have mattered in the end because they were surrounded by a bunch of AHL players who were simply not good enough to put the team over the hump.

The Penguins had something like 15 regulation wins since Halloween. That is clear sign of a bad team that is fortunate to have some elite talent on it, which allowed it to not be a draft lottery team.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

And if I'm wrong and beau becomes a good player, I'll gladly admit I'm wrong...won't be the first time for that.

 

[goalieman]

The question is not what line Beau Bennett should play on but rather is he even an NHL player.

There are two things IMO that Bennett could do to get better and the two things are feasible/doable ..... 1) Get stronger ..... he needs to get into a strength and conditioning program and get a lot stronger and .... 2) Improve his skating .... he is a decent skater but there is room for improvement ....... His hands/stickhandling and shooting are OK but you always continue to work on all fundamentals ....... However, improving his strength and his skating would help him win more battles in the corners/along the boards and get to the net/slot area better which is where you score goals..... he would be a much better player and I suspect a decent 2nd or 3rd line player. Right now he is not a good fit for any line..... I think there is hope if he works hard at it.

As far as depth ..... I think we are now developing good depth at goaltending ...... we are still pretty deep on defense but we need to figure out which defensemen we are going to keep and which we are not ..... we are also pretty deep at center for now with Crosby/Malkin/Sutter although we need to start obtaining and developing future centers ...... wingers are where we need some help now ...... we have to develop what young talent we have at wing, namely, Sundqvist, Kapanen, Bennett, and maybe someone like Brust ..... maybe Dupuis and Kunitz can come back with better years but don't count on it ...... we may have to trade some defensemen for wingers but it won't be easy ..... the free agent market doesn't look good this year....... we need some draft picks, not a good situation there at all.... and we have to figure it all out within our cap problems.

I'm not as down on Perron as some ..... he had 12 goals in 43 games with the Pens which would average 23 over a full year ..... true that he didn't play well down the stretch and in the playoffs but who did other then Fleury and a few others..... Perron has some good skills IMO.

This off season should be very interesting ..... some huge decisions to be made.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I get it when people say that Malkin and Crosby are two of the best players in the world and two of the most highly compensated players as well. Therefore, they needed to play better.

I get that part, I really do. I even partially agree with it.

However, what people seem to be slow to understand/accept is that even if they had played phenomenally well, it would not have mattered in the end because they were surrounded by a bunch of AHL players who were simply not good enough to put the team over the hump.

The Penguins had something like 15 regulation wins since Halloween. That is clear sign of a bad team that is fortunate to have some elite talent on it, which allowed it to not be a draft lottery team.

Doc, no offense, but how can you "even partially agree with it". I mean, it is not debatable. Those two are paid to score, and score big goals. They aren't or haven't in a long while.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

The question is not what line Beau Bennett should play on but rather is he even an NHL player.

There are two things IMO that Bennett could do to get better and the two things are feasible/doable ..... 1) Get stronger ..... he needs to get into a strength and conditioning program and get a lot stronger and .... 2) Improve his skating .... he is a decent skater but there is room for improvement ....... His hands/stickhandling and shooting are OK but you always continue to work on all fundamentals ....... However, improving his strength and his skating would help him win more battles in the corners/along the boards and get to the net/slot area better which is where you score goals..... he would be a much better player and I suspect a decent 2nd or 3rd line player. Right now he is not a good fit for any line..... I think there is hope if he works hard at it.

As far as depth ..... I think we are now developing good depth at goaltending ...... we are still pretty deep on defense but we need to figure out which defensemen we are going to keep and which we are not ..... we are also pretty deep at center for now with Crosby/Malkin/Sutter although we need to start obtaining and developing future centers ...... wingers are where we need some help now ...... we have to develop what young talent we have at wing, namely, Sundqvist, Kapanen, Bennett, and maybe someone like Brust ..... maybe Dupuis and Kunitz can come back with better years but don't count on it ...... we may have to trade some defensemen for wingers but it won't be easy ..... the free agent market doesn't look good this year....... we need some draft picks, not a good situation there at all.... and we have to figure it all out within our cap problems.

I'm not as down on Perron as some ..... he had 12 goals in 43 games with the Pens which would average 23 over a full year ..... true that he didn't play well down the stretch and in the playoffs but who did other then Fleury and a few others..... Perron has some good skills IMO.

This off season should be very interesting ..... some huge decisions to be made.

Perfectly said.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Doc, no offense, but how can you "even partially agree with it". I mean, it is not debatable. Those two are paid to score, and score big goals. They aren't or haven't in a long while.

As I said months ago when you originally stated that no matter what if the Penguins lost it would be all the fault of Evgeni Malkin and Sidney Crosby; they are very literally the least of the Penguins' worries.

We have no depth. This thread is a perfect example of it. We are debating over which of the inferior options at our disposal is the least inferior option. That is a problem and a much larger problem than the fact that Crosby only had four points in five games.

The Penguins' problem is not leadership, it is not heart, it is not intangible. The Penguins' primary problem is that aside from Malkin and Crosby (and Sutter and Hornqvist) they are CLEARLY under-talented almost everywhere else. That issue became exacerbated by the fact that basically all of our good defensemen became injured down the stretch.

Focusing on Malkin and Crosby while ignoring the glaring deficiencies everywhere else is insane to me.

The best analogy I could use would be that it would be like coming up on a flood ravaged home and complaining that your big screen TV was ruined. I understand that the television was expensive and you were disappointed to lose it. However, my God man, we have much bigger fish to fry.

With the exception of the four forwards but I have named repeatedly in this thread, nobody else was capable of putting the puck in the net.

Steven Stamkos still does not have a goal this postseason but his team looks pretty good. Why? Because unlike Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay has legitimate depth up and down it's lineup.

Honestly, I can see why radio trolls like Mark Madden push this stupid narrative because it is catnip for callers who don't know what they're talking about. However, you are clearly a good hockey guy and there is no upside to troll here. Instead of pretending that it is all the fall of the scapegoat or that scapegoat, why don't we face reality?

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Please note that that does not mean we should not trade one of the two big guns. Who knows, we may eventually have no other choice but to trade one or both of them?

However, if that ever were to happen, people would need to come to grips with the fact that the salary cap restrictions all but ensure that we are going to get absolutely raped in any trade.

That is not fear mongering, that is reality.

We are not going to get anything approaching fair value and it will look a lot like the Jaromir Jagr to Washington trade for Kris Beech, Michal Sivek, and Ross Lupecheck. In fact, that trade was made before the implementation of the salary cap so Pittsburgh probably did better in that trade than they would likely do in a trade of Malkin example.

People need to understand that reality going in - it would almost certainly be a salary dump for prospects as that is the only way it could work.

From there, it would probably be another three or four years minimum before we could determine if the prospects were worth it?

I'm sorry but there is no way that most of our hockey fans are knowledgeable enough to understand/accept that reality.

They will soon thereafter want to run every member of the management team out of town on a rail simply for following their own idiotic demands.

If we were to trade one or two of the big guns it is definitely an acknowledgment that we are tearing the whole thing down and starting over again from scratch.

Do you think most people realize that? More to the point, do you think most people accept that reality? Because I do not think people understand that at all. I think they think we are going to trade Malkin to Nashville for Shea Weber and Seth Jones; or to Edmonton for Connor McDavid and Taylor Hall, and that is simply not going to happen. It is more like we're going to trade Malkin to Edmonton for their third best defensive prospect in Oklahoma City and their first round picks for the next two years.

Therein lies the rub. It's very easy to trade away superstars who you feel are underperforming. However, once people see the realistic return, they are going to have a very different view of the situation.

All of the alarmism not withstanding, Pittsburgh is still blessed with two absolutely spectacular talents who are still very much in their respective primes.

However, the previous GM and so far the current GM have done a wretched job of surrounding those guys with complementary players. And worse still, they have traded away lots of young assets to land unproductive, overpriced, over the hill players who were only here for a cup of coffee anyway.

You can mortgage the future to go after the Stanley Cup once, and you may even be able to get away with it twice in a 5–7 year span. However, to try to do it every year is a really stupid way to do business and it has repeatedly bitten us right in the ass.

Pittsburgh needs to find creative ways to bring in young, cheap talent to augment what they already have in the spectacularly talented Malkin and Crosby.

I cannot fathom any scenario in which we traded either one of those guys and not live to regret it. The only question is how badly would injure the franchise?

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

The question is not what line Beau Bennett should play on but rather is he even an NHL player.

There are two things IMO that Bennett could do to get better and the two things are feasible/doable ..... 1) Get stronger ..... he needs to get into a strength and conditioning program and get a lot stronger and .... 2) Improve his skating .... he is a decent skater but there is room for improvement ....... His hands/stickhandling and shooting are OK but you always continue to work on all fundamentals ....... However, improving his strength and his skating would help him win more battles in the corners/along the boards and get to the net/slot area better which is where you score goals..... he would be a much better player and I suspect a decent 2nd or 3rd line player. Right now he is not a good fit for any line..... I think there is hope if he works at it.

I could not agree more, goalieman. Somehow, in this thread, people have convinced themselves that Beau Bennett is not a bust but rather a victim of circumstance.

If the Penguins would just play Bennett more in a top six role on the right wing, all of his other glaringly obvious problems would magically disappear.

They would not.

The problem for Bennett has mostly been injury related. I have some work ethic and toughness related concerns as well but for now I am still willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Bennett was always hurt at DU, then he was rushed to the NHL by Pittsburgh. He has always been hurt in Pittsburgh too. That is a major problem.

He is tremendously underdeveloped physically and mentally for a player his age because he has been hurt every single off-season.

You cannot lift weights to the level he needs to lift weights to gain mass with a broken wrist, or separated shoulder, or a broken clavicle.

Honestly, I feel for the kid. I know a few people who have worked with him in various capacities and to a person they all like him a lot. He is a bit of a flake but he is also a scream. He has a great sense of humor and he is a very kind young man - or so I am told.

Unfortunately, pro sports is not about how kind you are but rather how productive you are. We while we know the limitations of guys like Comeau and Spaling and even Dupuis, they give you other things aside from scoring goals, which is why have they have each lasted in the league for as long as they have. Bennett really doesn't add anything to a team aside from goalscoring potential. When a guy like that fails to score, he is essentially useless because he doesn't help you in any other aspect of the game.

I sincerely believe Pittsburgh should trade him in the off-season while his value has not completely plummeted and while he is still young enough to salvage his career. It is almost certainly not going to work out for him here.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

As far as depth ..... I think we are now developing good depth at goaltending ...... we are still pretty deep on defense but we need to figure out which defensemen we are going to keep and which we are not ..... we are also pretty deep at center for now with Crosby/Malkin/Sutter although we need to start obtaining and developing future centers ...... wingers are where we need some help now ...... we have to develop what young talent we have at wing, namely, Sundqvist, Kapanen, Bennett, and maybe someone like Brust ..... maybe Dupuis and Kunitz can come back with better years but don't count on it ...... we may have to trade some defensemen for wingers but it won't be easy ..... the free agent market doesn't look good this year....... we need some draft picks, not a good situation there at all.... and we have to figure it all out within our cap problems.

I'm not as down on Perron as some ..... he had 12 goals in 43 games with the Pens which would average 23 over a full year ..... true that he didn't play well down the stretch and in the playoffs but who did other then Fleury and a few others..... Perron has some good skills IMO.

This off season should be very interesting ..... some huge decisions to be made.

Your points about our depth in goal and on defense are well taken.

For the record, I think I'm the one who's been the toughest on Perron. He just looks slow as hell to me. Also, I hate his decision-making with the puck - particularly in the neutral zone. Get the puck to Geno and go find a soft spot. Quit trying to carry the puck through the neutral zone. You were not as good at it as number 71 and it leads to turnover after turnover or after turnover.

Also, Perron is incredibly poor/disinterested in his own end.

I cannot tell you how many goals were scored against the Penguins down the stretch as a direct result of a bad decision by David Perron both with and without the pot. It was not just the fact that the goals stopped coming, it was how incredibly deficient he was in some other important areas.

I do like that he crashes the net as ferociously as anyone on the team not named Patric Hornqvist. Also, I would like to see him with everyone healthy for once. At that point, people begin to get slotted properly and it can make a world of difference.

However, other than the utterly useless Steve Downey, who for some reason has mostly avoided the better criticism he deserves, no Penguins forward drives me quite as crazy as David Perron.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

... And yet I would still play that guy ahead of Beau Bennett because at least Perron wins the occasional battle along the wall and can chip in a goal here in there. That is a big deal for a team but struggles to score.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

As I said months ago when you originally stated that no matter what if the Penguins lost it would be all the fault of Evgeni Malkin and Sidney Crosby; they are very literally the least of the Penguins' worries.

We have no depth. This thread is a perfect example of it. We are debating over which of the inferior options at our disposal is the least inferior option. That is a problem and a much larger problem than the fact that Crosby only had four points in five games.

The Penguins' problem is not leadership, it is not heart, it is not intangible. The Penguins' primary problem is that aside from Malkin and Crosby (and Sutter and Hornqvist) they are CLEARLY under-talented almost everywhere else. That issue became exacerbated by the fact that basically all of our good defensemen became injured down the stretch.

Focusing on Malkin and Crosby while ignoring the glaring deficiencies everywhere else is insane to me.

The best analogy I could use would be that it would be like coming up on a flood ravaged home and complaining that your big screen TV was ruined. I understand that the television was expensive and you were disappointed to lose it. However, my God man, we have much bigger fish to fry.

With the exception of the four forwards but I have named repeatedly in this thread, nobody else was capable of putting the puck in the net.

Steven Stamkos still does not have a goal this postseason but his team looks pretty good. Why? Because unlike Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay has legitimate depth up and down it's lineup.

Honestly, I can see why radio trolls like Mark Madden push this stupid narrative because it is catnip for callers who don't know what they're talking about. However, you are clearly a good hockey guy and there is no upside to troll here. Instead of pretending that it is all the fall of the scapegoat or that scapegoat, why don't we face reality?

Doc, when I said that, little did I know that the Pens would implode on itself backed up by the Cap and injury concerns. Of course the Ranger loss was a loss to the better team. I am not blaming ANYONE for that. The Rangers were better, and likely better than even a fully healthy Pens team.

My issues/thoughts with me originating this thread is:

1) The Pens have scored 9 goals in 11 games in the last 3 series they were eliminated. 9 goals. That is 3 years. Geno had a Hat Trick in one game last year in the Rangers series, Sid had a 2 goal game this year (both wins by the way) and were pretty much silent. THAT IS A PROBLEM. When these two guys aren't producing, the Pens aren't a very formidable team. I know, thanks Captain Obvious. It is no different than saying if Ben doesn't produce the Steelers are in trouble, or Labron and the Cavs, etc...that is what SUPERSTARS are supposed to do. Lift a team up. Yeah, Stamkos hasn't scored a goal yet this year. Let's not let that muddy the waters that again, as Sid and Geno goes, so do the Penguins. And it should be like that. But...........

2) The other point of examining "the Core" is that the game has changed (I would say devolved) where superstars, offensive superstars are at an all time low in value to their teams. So if this is the case, and depth has supplanted the superstar model, then the Pens plan is completely flawed and it is a plan of failure as we have seen these past few offseasons. Sure, poor drafts, poor trades have eaten away at the depth, but part of that problem is tying up so much money in the Core, especially Sid and Geno. So, they have to account for more, Stamkos be damned, but we are talking Sid and Geno.

3) The mismanagement of our young guys looks like it is spanning two regimes. I don't know how Maata escaped the yo yo that some of these others guys have (I do know, he was friggin GOOD from the get) but not always guys get it right away. Depres was crushed here. How could we not develop a 6'4" big, defensemen who is a good skater and has some offensive abilities? But we didn't fully engage. Bennett was the ONLY forward of any pedigree since Jordan Staal (all respect to Tom Kunackl ummm...that is sarcasm) and injuries have been a main concern, but they don't even try him on a top 6 role and worse, even playing the 3rd line they couldn't move a career hack like Steve Downie to his off wing and allow Bennett to play there. Just weak. As for trading Bennett, hey if it makes sense, do it. I agree. I thought he could/should been moved at the deadline as part of a package.

4) What is ironic is the success of the WBS Pens who seem to be the anti Pens. They don't have any superstars, just roll out 4 lines, built a lot like some of the more successful NHL playoff teams of recent vintage. Which again, makes me question if the Pens chose the wrong path 3-4 years ago, and should have dealt off one of the two. Of course, with Sid's head injury, that was also tough to do. I am not just whining and pointing fingers, I do realize the Pens were dealt a lot of bad hands since January 1st, 2011.

And into this complicated predicament Lemieux/Burkle/Mooredickheadhouse entrusts the man who gave Alexandre Semin that ridiculous contract and the man who is responsible for the best trade in Ray Shero's tenure. As the little boy said "god bless us everyone":.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Please note that that does not mean we should not trade one of the two big guns. Who knows, we may eventually have no other choice but to trade one or both of them?

However, if that ever were to happen, people would need to come to grips with the fact that the salary cap restrictions all but ensure that we are going to get absolutely raped in any trade.

That is not fear mongering, that is reality.

We are not going to get anything approaching fair value and it will look a lot like the Jaromir Jagr to Washington trade for Kris Beech, Michal Sivek, and Ross Lupecheck. In fact, that trade was made before the implementation of the salary cap so Pittsburgh probably did better in that trade than they would likely do in a trade of Malkin example.

People need to understand that reality going in - it would almost certainly be a salary dump for prospects as that is the only way it could work.

From there, it would probably be another three or four years minimum before we could determine if the prospects were worth it?

I'm sorry but there is no way that most of our hockey fans are knowledgeable enough to understand/accept that reality.

They will soon thereafter want to run every member of the management team out of town on a rail simply for following their own idiotic demands.

If we were to trade one or two of the big guns it is definitely an acknowledgment that we are tearing the whole thing down and starting over again from scratch.

Do you think most people realize that? More to the point, do you think most people accept that reality? Because I do not think people understand that at all. I think they think we are going to trade Malkin to Nashville for Shea Weber and Seth Jones; or to Edmonton for Connor McDavid and Taylor Hall, and that is simply not going to happen. It is more like we're going to trade Malkin to Edmonton for their third best defensive prospect in Oklahoma City and their first round picks for the next two years.

Therein lies the rub. It's very easy to trade away superstars who you feel are underperforming. However, once people see the realistic return, they are going to have a very different view of the situation.

All of the alarmism not withstanding, Pittsburgh is still blessed with two absolutely spectacular talents who are still very much in their respective primes.

However, the previous GM and so far the current GM have done a wretched job of surrounding those guys with complementary players. And worse still, they have traded away lots of young assets to land unproductive, overpriced, over the hill players who were only here for a cup of coffee anyway.

You can mortgage the future to go after the Stanley Cup once, and you may even be able to get away with it twice in a 5–7 year span. However, to try to do it every year is a really stupid way to do business and it has repeatedly bitten us right in the ass.

Pittsburgh needs to find creative ways to bring in young, cheap talent to augment what they already have in the spectacularly talented Malkin and Crosby.

I cannot fathom any scenario in which we traded either one of those guys and not live to regret it. The only question is how badly would injure the franchise?

This post is completely SPOT ON! Like I said, my advocating trading one of the two is because I just don't think it is working and will not work moving forward. And when they SHOULD of have thought of this because they COULD get value in return, they couldn't because Sid's head issues. No doubt, they are in a difficult situations

Though you and I disagree, I thought they should have traded Letang when they could have.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Rivals, it is clear we are just not going to agree on this matter.

I sincerely believe that blaming Crosby and Malkin for the Penguins' losses is a lot like blaming Roethlisberger for the Steelers' playoff losses. I mean I get that people do that, and he obviously could have played better in many of those games, but I don't agree with them either.

It is not Rothlisberger's fault that the Steelers cannot defend the pass. Similarly, it is not Crosby's fault that Pittsburgh had four players on it's roster capable of scoring goals.

I think it is very easy to pin a disproportionate amount of the blame on the most visible players on the team. However, that does not mean that the analysis is correct.

I also do not agree that Crosby and Malkin are eating up too much of our cap. I look around the NHL and I see lots of teams that have a relatively similar model in place. Anaheim as it with Getzlaf and Perry, Chicago has it with Toews and Kane, etc.

We could manage that just fine - Letang's deal too - if we were not also overpaying bottom pairing defensemen and bottom six wingers. To me, that is the loose fat and it needs to be trimmed.

That is why I was so critical of Shero and Rutherford. It seems insanely disingenuous to me for an organization to trade it's top draft picks every single year and then to turn around and complain about a lack of depth within the organization - particularly at forward.

Where the hell is that depth supposed to come from if we aren't drafting anyone in the first place? And in the few instances where we did not trade our first round pick, we always seemed to chose a defenseman. Of course we don't have any quality forwards in the system. We haven't drafted very many of them.

I think it'd insane to trade either Crosby or Malkin - like straight up certifiable. It would definitely be a decision we would quickly and long regret.

However, if they trade one, they may as well trade both because we are going to end up in the same spot anyway - near the top of the draft lottery standings.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Doc, did you see this? Another case of our GM being asleep at the wheel. I am longing for the days of Craig Patrick. The Pens need skilled wingers, right? And they have no draft picks. They need them now. Pens were one of the teams rumored to be after Artem Panarin from Russia. I don't know if they were, but the fact they had Malkin and desperate need for wingers they were linked.

Well Artem has been inked. By the Chicago Blackhawks.

http://espn.go.com/chicago/nhl/stor...anarin-chicago-blackhawks-agree-two-year-deal

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Without knowing how involved Pittsburgh was, I'm not sure I can agree that they were asleep at the wheel.

They may have been lackadaisical in their pursuit of him or maybe the kid just chose Chicago over Pittsburgh?

It is very hard to project how well these Europeans are going to do in North America. A few years ago Pittsburgh signed a Finnish kid names Janne Pesonan - one of the top players in the Finnish Elite League - which is one of the best leagues in the world.

He did nothing here.

The most famous example I can think of was Jiri Dopita, who was a star in the Czech Elite League and with the Czech national team. At the time, that meant something.

I remember watching him in the Olympics and thinking he was a perfect NHL third line center. He had great size and skill and was a fabulous skater. Also, he played with an edge – which at the time was considered unusual for European players.

Unfortunately, when he did come to the NHL, he did absolutely nothing. Boy was I wrong on him and so were a great many professional scouts.

Obviously, plenty of European players have come to the NHL and flourished. However, just because someone does well in the KHL does not mean they will be a good NHL player. I still would've liked to have seen Pittsburgh sign him and give him a shot. However, at 170 pounds, maybe he is basically just an older version of Kasperi Kapanen?

To me, the weird part is why would he choose Chicago? That seems like a crazy decision given their talent upfront, much of which is still quite young. Presuming the money is relatively equal, what should be the case considering entry-level con tract restrictions, he probably couldn't have made a worse choice than Chicago.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Without knowing how involved Pittsburgh was, I'm not sure I can agree that they were asleep at the wheel.

They may have been lackadaisical in their pursuit of him or maybe the kid just chose Chicago over Pittsburgh?

It is very hard to project how well these Europeans are going to do in North America. A few years ago Pittsburgh signed a Finnish kid names Janne Pesonan - one of the top players in the Finnish Elite League - which is one of the best leagues in the world.

He did nothing here.

The most famous example I can think of was Jiri Dopita, who was a star in the Czech Elite League and with the Czech national team. At the time, that meant something.

I remember watching him in the Olympics and thinking he was a perfect NHL third line center. He had great size and skill and was a fabulous skater. Also, he played with an edge – which at the time was considered unusual for European players.

Unfortunately, when he did come to the NHL, he did absolutely nothing. Boy was I wrong on him and so were a great many professional scouts.

Obviously, plenty of European players have come to the NHL and flourished. However, just because someone does well in the KHL does not mean they will be a good NHL player. I still would've liked to have seen Pittsburgh sign him and give him a shot. However, at 170 pounds, maybe he is basically just an older version of Kasperi Kapanen?

To me, the weird part is why would he choose Chicago? That seems like a crazy decision given their talent upfront, much of which is still quite young. Presuming the money is relatively equal, what should be the case considering entry-level con tract restrictions, he probably couldn't have made a worse choice than Chicago.

Oh, I absolutely remember Dopitra. I think he signed with the Blues. Me and my buddies even had a saying "this kid Dopitra" when any unnamed player would do well in international events. It was a running gag.

As for Panarin, I found out that he liked the Blackhawks because "they play skilled players" and he likes their style. The Pens were involved. I just find it ironic that only a few years ago, Pittsburgh was the epicenter for the hockey universe and seemed like a destination for every big FA/deadline deal player to now......when it seems like the expiration date now has passed on the Pens.

What I liked about Panarin was obvious:
1: Skill, and I watched the Ruskies lose to the USA today 4-2 (Hi Geno!) and Panarin did show a lot of skill and moved really well and had a really nice one timer (which we would kill to see David Perron do) and was a RH shot.
2: He is cheap. And entry level contract, no draft choices used, no trades needed to be made.
3. I was hoping Malkin's presence over there first and foremost maybe would be to recruit him. Evidently not.

Again, I don't trust Jim Rutherford, but how about the Pens scouts? We focused a lot on Ray Shero, but the scouts really didn't change? If the Pens wanted to invest good money, they would find some of the TB and Detroit scouts and double their salaries. Isn't it interesting with Stevie Y in charge, TB is having the same success with late rd/free agents like Palat and Tyler Johnson as the Wings have done with Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Nyquist. Who was the last Penguin player outside of the top 3 rounds to really be a major factor with this franchise?

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

By the way...Ray Shero to the Devils. Possibly Fitzgerald and Botterill to join his staff. Also, Dan Bylsma could be their head coach.

That could be a lot of payroll off of the management salary structure.

Can someone kidnap Jim Rutherford?

 

[vegasgreed]

Jason Karmanos also?

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Jason Karmanos also?

Yeah, talk about nepotism.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Yeah, talk about nepotism.

Actually, if you know that story, Karmanos's deal is the opposite of nepotism.

He was fired from the Hurricanes because he and his father had an argument at the Thanksgiving dinner table over his father's new girlfriend.

At least that is how the story goes. Maybe it happened for other reasons but his father definitely fired him and when he did, it shocked everyone inside that organization and many people outside of it as well.

 

[vegasgreed]

I'm aware of that story. Jason Karmanos has done nothing in the NHL that warrants his current position.