I've always said contrary to popular opinion he swung and missed on the bullpen and the superstars aren't producing.....
OT.....Pirates and Nutting
- Thread starter TD_istheman
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1)NH should have signed Volquez. 2 yr 20 million was a steal and it was disgraceful he let Volquez walk
2)Happ should have been resigned, no brainer in my mind but of course I got bashed for it before the season by all the Nutting and NH lovers on here.
3)Niese signing was ridiculous. NY couldn't wait for him to leave(reminds me of Stallings and Vandy pushing him out so to speak)
4)Nicasio, Vogelsong, all the bullpen stiffs, etc...
This is primarily why we stink this season
Of course, Cutch playing like he's aged 10 years, Liriano being washed up, Hughes stinking up the place is part of it.
And for those all clamoring for Cervelli to return? He was hitting around .170 the last 6 weeks before he got hurt. His offensive production stunk and he really can't throw either. So let the hate begin on this prediction but here goes: Cervelli's extension was a MISTAKE and I think that contract will be a bust. By 2018 or maybe by the end of next season, we will all be clamoring for Diaz as Cervelli hits .220 with no power. Watch.
2)Happ should have been resigned, no brainer in my mind but of course I got bashed for it before the season by all the Nutting and NH lovers on here.
3)Niese signing was ridiculous. NY couldn't wait for him to leave(reminds me of Stallings and Vandy pushing him out so to speak)
4)Nicasio, Vogelsong, all the bullpen stiffs, etc...
This is primarily why we stink this season
Of course, Cutch playing like he's aged 10 years, Liriano being washed up, Hughes stinking up the place is part of it.
And for those all clamoring for Cervelli to return? He was hitting around .170 the last 6 weeks before he got hurt. His offensive production stunk and he really can't throw either. So let the hate begin on this prediction but here goes: Cervelli's extension was a MISTAKE and I think that contract will be a bust. By 2018 or maybe by the end of next season, we will all be clamoring for Diaz as Cervelli hits .220 with no power. Watch.
I said in June. Forget the first few weeks, that's long gone. This offense was extremely lucky early on but have come back to earth big time. No power on the team, Harrison is a bust, Kang is now struggling, Marte gets injured every other game, Cutch has regressed, all the catchers are bad, SRod stinks, Polanco has been fine for the most part and Jaso has been struggling for at least a month now.
You know nothing and have proved it repeatedly. You're part of the brigade. First base has been an ongoing problem for ages- Jaso is just another Nutsack rent a bum. Bell- just another in a long line of hopes and prayers. Kang has always been considered an option at second base. Taillon, Glasnow- wishes and dreams- yours is the Nutsack perspective- dream about future prospects while Rome burns. Is it Buctober yet?
You're really cherry picking a tiny sample and I have no idea how Kang is struggling in June when he has a 273/342/515 line in the month.
Cutch HAS been bad, no doubt. Marte's been dinged, but he's still played quite a bit and had a hell of a month himself.
You can say what you want about Cervelli, but he had a 184 wRC+ in his June plate appearances -- even if that doesn't keep up he's far and away a better hitter than Stewart, Kratz, and Stallings.
I don't disagree that Cervelli could tank in the future, FWIW. He's a catcher and when they decline they tend to do so very quickly. That goes for pitchers as well, which is why generally I think it's kind of funny that people view simply spending money as some sort of panacea that locks in production over the length of the deal.
On Josh Bell -- my guess is that he might get the call next week when the Pirates have a DH available to them. He's still scuffling at 1B a bit defensively, mostly with the mental aspect (knowing when to go after a ball, when to take it himself, when to flip to the pitcher, etc.).
They're supposedly calling up Adam Frazier right now, who will be interesting to watch. He's a Josh Harrison type, IMO.
Anyone who couldn't see this disaster of a season coming either didn't want to accept reality or is clueless about baseball. I called it in spring training after watching Huntington call this year a "bridge year" and all the dumpster dive trash heap signings.
And before the Cutch, Liriano excuses come out - let me state: If we had the same Cutch from last season and same Liriano from last season we might be at .500 now, not 5 games under. That still is not successful in my eyes and it starts with a cheapskate owner who allowed a 98 win team to be effectively destroyed.
And before the Cutch, Liriano excuses come out - let me state: If we had the same Cutch from last season and same Liriano from last season we might be at .500 now, not 5 games under. That still is not successful in my eyes and it starts with a cheapskate owner who allowed a 98 win team to be effectively destroyed.
They were always going to make room for Bell and Jaso is a solid player........It wasn't wishes and dreams they wanted a Cole, Liriano, Taillon, Glasnow rotation by June and it hasn't fallen that way.....I don't even know what to say about Kang at second...LOL
GM Del = Champions
These pitchers (and players like Bell) are just being touted by the "Nutting sackers" but by pretty much everyone who gets paid to scout and evaluate talent. 1B is down the list as a concern based on the impending arrival of Bell. Starting and Relief pitching is where I would look to make moves.
Think about the Pirates' history, how many sure bet minor league prospects never panned out? Prospects are just that- as we speak I'm not sure Cole is a sure fire ace in this league let alone guys in double and triple A. If the Pirates keep thinking they are going going to build a championship team EXCLUSIVELY on home grown talent, they will never win a championship-never.
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That's a copout. You have to have your core from within. Even the great Yankees teams of the 2000's were mostly home grown talent. I don't know where you think you are going to get such talent?
Again, I am not totally against your stance, I am dubious on how truly committed Nutting is to winning a championship. I get it. But you keep on saying, "GET A FIRST BASEMAN!" Who? How?
Look, the Pirates have had 15 fricking years to get a first baseman. During that span there was not a single viable option? Do you believe that? Now you want me to research the last 15 years and identify all the various guys they could have signed during that span so Moneybalz can then explain why none of them would have been worth the money. The Pirates screwed up because they were too cheap to make a move and that goes for the last 3 years too. 98 wins or not last year they were a team that had fairly big holes on the roster. They were flawed.
I mean, here's the list of all free agents back to pre-2011. It'll also show you all free agents into the future. The resources are all right at your fingertips and most definitely don't require "research"
Going back to when the Pirates should have been trying to win (I guess we can say pre-2013?), the top available 1B (based on salaries received) who have been available to everybody have been:
Pre-2013: Kevin Youkilis, Lance Berkman, and Mike Napoli all got 1 year deals. Jack Hannahan is the highest paid guy who got a multi-year deal, and he got a 2-year deal.
Pre-2014: Mike Napoli, James Loney, and Justin Morneau all received shortish deals (2-3 years) and all were traded/released prior to the end of their deal. The Pirates traded for Ike Davis in an effort to fill 1B this year -- he wasn't great but they at least could release him easily.
Pre-2015: Mike Morse got the largest deal among 1B. The Pirates acquired him last year during the trade deadline and paid the 2nd year of his 2-year contract during this season. Hanley Ramirez was signed as a 3B/LF and is transitioning to 1B, and was the highest paid 1B this offseason if he's included.
Pre-2016: Chris Davis got a massive deal for some reason. Mike Napoli and Steve Pearce (former Pirate prospect) were the next 2 highest paid players at 1B, and they received 1-year deals.
I strongly advocated (on the scout.com board) for the Pirates trading Joel Hanrahan at the trade deadline in exchange for Chris Davis back when he was with the Rangers. I was told I was a Pirates hater and that they needed to be buying at the deadline because they were really close to getting to .500 and you can't just gamble on unproven guys when you have a closer that's getting the job done.
What happened prior to 2008, I don't care about. Different regime. They tanked intentionally beginning in 2008, so I'm fine with them not signing any serious free agents. It kind of defeats the purpose of tanking.
Saw an interesting feature on 538.com and they tracked all of the teams through the years by how good/bad they were relative to the league. During the entire Littlefield era, the Pirates were never the worst team in baseball. That's absolutely terrible management for a front office claiming a "five year plan". The Pirates didn't ACTUALLY tank until around 2009/2010 -- which is what they should have done all along under Littlefield.
Edit: In the interest of full disclosure, pre-2012 had the following "1B" available:
Albert Pujols for his massive deal (which still has 5 years left after 2016)
Prince Fielder for his massive deal (which still has 4 years left after 2016)
Michael Cuddyer, Carlos Pena, Luke Scott were the next 3 highest paid players.
So, I mean, yeah -- 1B has been an issue but I hardly think the Pirates have been worse off with their internal options relative to the players available. Anybody out of that 1B pool who wound up being good was a dumpster dive, and by rule we cannot give the Pirates credit for going cheap and buying low on a guy.
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Prospects? Taillon-3 starts- he's stunk in 2 of three and in the one he won was clearly a finesse pitcher. Glad we set up the year awaiting his promotion. How many more super prospects will under deliver?
By the way, you did a nice job on the first base analysis- see I can be nice!
The Pirates set up the prospects to get here this year primarily because they WOULD struggle -- pretty much all rookies do. The goal was to get the rookie struggles out of the way this year so they can hit the ground running next year. This year alone we've seen Jose Berrios struggle. Julio Urias has struggled. Those are a couple of Taillon level prospects. AAA gets viewed as some sort of holding ground for guys while they avoid Super Two, but the jump from AAA to MLB is enormous -- probably the largest in the game.
I don't know that I'd necessarily call Taillon finesse, it's tough to be a finesse guy with a 95 MPH 2-seamer, but he will need to start striking more guys out -- and I said that earlier.
Still, that should come with more refinement. It did with Cole.
Del, in my opinion Taillon will be okay once he comes to understand that throwing fastballs in the majors, across the plate belt high is a distinct no no, He doesn't challenge batters and they are just sitting back waiting on that fastball. This isn't triple A. I yet to see him work the inside corners to set these hitters up. just my two cents.
Well, hopefully, it's all about learning the art of pitching. In the recent past, however, most of the young pitchers across the league predicted to be phenoms were pretty effective from the start,. Time will tell..
Thank you. You made my point to Del. I mean screaming 15 YEARS! For 1B help makes any argument irrelevant. I think right now, 1B is WAY DOWN the list of issues.
The only move I may have made in the last 5 years was to resign Morneau who signed to a favorable contract, but he really didn't perform that well.
If this is Del's reason to hate Nutting, it is like me hating Germany because they have bad music.
8 years of this great GM and Co, we have only 4 major league players to show for it, in all the minors from drafting, and you all hold out hope, keep washing
NO, I hate Nutting because the Pirates were very close to being a championship club the last three years and he refused to add the bats that would have put them over the top. How are you going to win a championship with the caliber of players that they had in their infield and the corner outfield positions the last 3 years-and before you challenge my reference to the corner outfielders, remember that neither Marte nor Polanco were ready to be productive offensively when originally promoted to the majors. Hell, Polanco didn't even know how to run the bases last year. Cutch tried to carry the team on his back and very little help.
I think that 1) you're really underselling how good Polanco and Marte were when they came up and 2) you're really asking the Pirates to act in a manner that is both completely out of line with their market size and completely out of line with the rest of baseball.
The most valuable commodity in baseball is a young, cost controlled player. The only way to get that commodity is through promoting prospects. Teams are no longer willing to block young guys with veterans now that steroids are gone.
Marte and Polanco didn't meet the expectations that sports writers around Pittsburgh put on them, but in terms of the expectations of the more informed writers and sites they were fine. Polanco last year was more valuable than Neil Walker, for instance. Twice as valuable as Marlon Byrd, too. Is that a superstar? No. Is that a black hole in the lineup? Also no. That's an average major league player -- with the upside for Polanco being that he's super young and still has aging curves on his side.
I think in general people really underestimate how good a league average player is relative to the rest of the sport.
I understand your point on Marte and Polanco. I think, however, that any practice or strategy employed inflexibly will come back to bite you. If you're in a pennant race or if you are in the situation the Pirates were in going into 2014 and 2015, don't you have to balance the potential of guys like Marte and Polanco in regard to their readiness to contribute(not just fill a spot in the lineup)right away versus what your team actually needs NOW to elevate its performance. If personnel decisions will always be driven by what will keep the Pirates, small market team or not, COMPETITIVE in the future as opposed to what will be better for them today and possibly give them a chance to win a championship, they will most likely NEVER win a championship. I think that when the Pirates elevated Marte and Polanco they were very good prospects but I don't think either guy was ready to come in and be the bellweather bats in the lineup of the type the Pirates desperately needed at that time. I remain steadfast in my view that the Pirates lineup the last three years had too many automatic outs which hindered their offense significantly against better than average pitching. There were no consistent run producers in the lineups of any of those teams to support McCucheon and I believe that was the undoing of those teams. They won a slew of low scoring, one run games-in the post season, that sort of good fortune wasn't likely to continue and it didn't. You can talk all you want about the Pirates facing hot pitchers in the playoffs and good and bad fortune in facing those caliber pitchers but a lineup with productive hitters will have a much better chance of beating those kinds of pitchers. The Pirates lineup in those playoff series in facing the likes of Baumgardner, Arrieta and Wainright were a joke. The starting 9 in the Cubs playoff game last year was pitiful You're not going to get run production when half of your hitters are essentially automatic outs.
So while I don't discount balancing the present versus the future, I don't think you should do that blindly and inflexibly which is exactly what I believe the Pirates did and continue to do.
Try and trade Jaso for any kind of pitching help if possible and call up Josh Bell. Guy is tearing it up in Indy. Start playing Frazier at 2nd because Harrison sucks and that contract was a waste. Bring up Glasnow and give it a shot. Huge hole though at the bottom of the order because both Stewart and Kratz are pure garbage.
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I don't disagree, however, given what tends to be available at the spots you're most concerned with -- I don't think they're really doing a ton with balancing the present and future too much.
Like, in 2013 (his first full season), Marte put up a 280/343/441 batting line with 41 steals and great defense playing what's essentially a 2nd CF in PNC's huge left field. Yes, he was young, but he was productive and I don't think you're going to easily upgrade on that in the short term. Obviously from there he's improved in most areas.
On Polanco, they did wind up benching him at the end of his rookie season in favor of Travis Snider, who went on a huge tear. Last year his overall line wasn't great, but, he was pretty damn good in the 2nd half of the season and I think that matters in context since that tends to be when moves are made. And, if playoffs are what matters, I think Polanco playing up to his potential at the end of the season is likely more helpful than a veteran just chugging along as an average-ish player with minimal upside.
Teams do tend to let talented rookies and youngsters struggle, even the larger revenue teams. The Cardinals, coming off a NLCS appearance, stuck by Oscar Taveras prior to his death. The Dodgers stuck by Joc Pederson last year. The Cubs obviously threw a bunch of rookies into the fire last year, and have continued giving chances to guys like Jorge Soler and Javier Baez despite some pretty massive struggles from both in the past.
I think free agency just carries so little in the way of impact free agents these days that teams are willing to lose a bit on the front end, with the theory being that the young guy will wind up being better for a longer period of time than the free agent.
We need to sign a big bat FA, one stud starting pitcher in off season. Bring up the younger guys now, take lumps and be ready next year. Trade anything that can bring back some quality middle relievers , and then once the season ends, cut all the crap we are carrying.
I hate to give up on the the season mid way, but Nutting did on opening day with that staff
I hate to give up on the the season mid way, but Nutting did on opening day with that staff
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From the always excellent Rocco DeMaro:
Pitchers suck this year now that Strasburg signed an extension. I think the lineup is okay, overall.
My guess is that Moroff will be the 2B going forward and Frazier will settle in as a utility guy. He just has 0 pop, which gives him minimal margin for error in the majors. Pitchers will challenge him because he can't hurt them too badly, so he won't draw walks.
Pitchers suck this year now that Strasburg signed an extension. I think the lineup is okay, overall.
My guess is that Moroff will be the 2B going forward and Frazier will settle in as a utility guy. He just has 0 pop, which gives him minimal margin for error in the majors. Pitchers will challenge him because he can't hurt them too badly, so he won't draw walks.
Holy Christ, 3 starts and you are writing off a career.
Look, there is nothing that Nutting can do to satisfy you. Nothing. Your opinion is already cemented in stone, and even when you are presented with facts, you still refuse to budge and you bring up "15 years".
Again, do you think trading Polanco, Glasnow and Josh Bell for Giancarlo Stanton would have been a wise move?
Not writing him off. The comment was simply that for a guy everyone has been highly anticipating joining the major league team and evidently a guy the Pirates factored into the manner in which they constructed their 2016 starting staff, he hasn't been very good. Compare hid first few starts to Strausberg's a few years back-he's the kind of guy you might structure your staff around and absorb some early season knocks until he is promoted. There is one thing Nutting can do to satisfy me-sell the team. Would be a happy, happy day!
How do you know that's what it would have taken? 15 years-not a single first baseman who could walk and chew gum at the same time. The list reads like an honor roll of washed up bums. If the price tag is too high to acquire a first baseman, then develop one. The Pirates have done neither. They did draft bums like Alvarez, Sanchez and Moskol....in the first round. They passed on several now all star caliber players. A team that's as cheap as the Pirates can't afford first round busts.
1) Strasburg was a 1 in 10 year prospect, a #1 overall pick. Expecting that is idiotic. Also, Strasburg has been injured more than not, and you wonder if he will ever reach his potential. How many playoff games has the Nats won over the last 3 years?
2) That is why you bring up Taillon, Kuhl, Glasnow now. Let them take their lumps. You can't just go "ALL IN!, I AM ALL IN DEL THE ALL IN GM!!" every year, especially in a market this size. Holy crap, if it was up to you, you would trade the entire farms system for a couple of 30+ year old zillionaires, and push, push, push....then if you don't win the World Series you say "well hells bells, wait you mean there is a next season, oh shit, now what do I do?" You have to have some framework and plan.
3) Your last sentence just proved it. I am not a Nutting fan and I question if he truly cares about winning a championship. But I also acknowledge there are not just economics, but sound baseball and player acquisition/development rules that need to be followed. Even the Yankees aren't the Yankees anymore with just mindlessly signing any big name free agent.
OK....but that is old news. You keep on rehashing, rehashing. And to be honest, Alvarez would have been picked in that slot by any team. Now Sanchez and Moskos, they were reaches. When they passed up Wieters for Moskos, I didn't step a foot into PNC Park until 2013. Not because Wieters was such a great prospect/player, because it showed they aren't even interested in trying and had no clue. But that was a previous management.
We may never lose another....
Maybe help comes from within this year .
The past 50 days were brutal but things should ease up a bit coming up soon. As bad as this has been the WC is still a possibilty and as far as those daunting one game WC pitching match ups , Bucs just took care of Mad bum and Kershaw.
(Small sample size but I'm trying to keep afloat some hope. )
Hard to remember but Cole hasn't pitched in about a month, or at least pitched effectively in that time.
Liriano scuffling big time, but as he's proved in the past, he's fixable.
Locke, whew! Never know what you're going to get, but the past couple of starts have been lights out, if he can just be an effective 6 inning guy and keep the opposition to 3 or less, that would be great.
The pen seems to be coming around a bit. Watson has steadied up and Melancon has been top form. Hughes is scuffling, but hopefully he figures it out as well.
There is talent to bring up, both pitching and plug in position guys. Thank goodness for Freese and Joyce. Great acquisitions paying big dividends.
Now, if Cutch pulls out of his swoon, Cervelli gets healthy, the run scoring binge resumes taking a ton of pressure off the pitching staff.
Need about a 10 game winning streak to get back on top of the WC slot.
Cubs coming back to earth, but they're so far ahead, probably can't expect them to fold.
Set sights on Cards, Mets, and Dodgers. Win the ones you're supposed to and split the rest.
Gets you in the dance.
Nice try, Del, but that sums up discussing the reality of the Pirates situation with you. You're a one trick pony who can't see all the good things the Pirates have done to stay relevant in a very competitive league.
Why aren't you frothing from the mouth over Freese and Joyce? Weren't they dumpster dives?
You have a stroke over 1B, but the Pirates have been getting pretty good offensive production and great defense out of their first base platooning.
They're scuffling now because their number 1 starter is injured and their franchise player is in a slump. Both will be back.
Look, I'm sorry Nutting stole your wife, but you have to get over it. Either get over it, or scrape up a billion dollars and buy the team. Then you can run however you like.
Based on what you post here, PNC park will have two fans in it, you and Poker.
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