Too many times one of our sophs just decides it is time to get his. You will see a wild, head down drive or a non rhythm three.
12 to 5
- Thread starter 4upmc
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FWIW, I think McGowens has a tendency to play head down a lot. He needs to work on his handle and keeping his head upward. I think for him it is more that than selfishness.
X had a big issue this year not moving the ball fast enough. He missed a lot of open guys on the perimeter from not swinging the ball. He over dribbled too much. On a plus, he did learn/show the ability to change tempo, which is key. But, it is going to be a process with him (which is okay).
Neither Magic or Jordon career paths put them into coaching . Truly transcendent athletes rarely make good coaches because it’s hard for these guys to communicate what comes naturally to them to others .
If JC had followed JD and had JRob , Young , Artis , Jeter and co then I could understand thinking he can’t coach , but let’s look at his roster objectively.
PG ...X not a true pg a slashing me first player without a go to midrange jumper and perimeter shot whose just learning to play the position
G .. Trey not a true 2 guard , quick great athlete without a good outside or midrange game
F ..JC a promising freshman very erratic shooting . Has a lot of potential.
F. ..Toney ..undersized 4 offense got better as season progressed ,good D
Center ..forget about it
Bench ..forget about it
Never mentioned anything about rebounding
My time table
Next yr the pieces need to start to be in place the following yr they need to be able compete night in and night out . Yr 5 they need to be good ...no apology.
There’s not one guy on current Pitt roster that would see anything but spot duty on the worst of JDs
teams !
I think that X, Trey, Toney and Champagnie could all start for some of the Dixon teams. It is not really a question to me, it is more a matter of the team makeup and where they would fit.
Not right now , they would’ve been worked into the lineup .
JD would’ve had seizures on the sideline with X and Trey’s turnovers and their boneheaded drives .
I think he’d have liked Toney and JC
I do not think that Dixon would have put them in places to make a lot of those frustrating plays. Dixon had a very tight hold on the offense, save maybe two seasons (2009 and 2011).
It is not hard for me to see McGowens starting over Jermaine Dixon in 2009 on a really good team. He would no playmaking responsibility and would be free to get some isos at the hoop and make plays in transition. And, he plays great defense like Dixon did. I could pull a bunch of other examples but I think it is more that they have talent and Dixon would utilize that talent differently.
A real distinguishing point for Jamie was defense; Trey and Au'Diese are high level defenders for the most part and have shown a willingness to execute plays properly when prompted. I have no problems seeing them (at this stage) fitting in easily with most any Jamie Dixon coached team.
they don’t play the same position but Justin and Toney are better. JD would love the D of Toney.
Yes. He plays both ends. Finishes harder at the rim and is better with the ball.
J.J. had more scoring potential than Trey because he could always get off a good shot and he was bigger. To his credit, he learned how to handle better later as a pro but Trey is much more advanced now than J.J. was at the same stage.
I do not think that they are great comparison points. They are different. Trey should be compared to Page, Dixon, Wanamaker, Graves, Ramon, etc. J.J.'s proper comparison points are more Young, Gil Brown, Patterson, Champagnie and Toney.
I think it depends upon the when as a comparison point. Are you comparing them all as sophomores (if applicable) or the end product versus the Trey product now?
I think Page was better than Trey as a sophomore but none of those other comparison points were better at that point of their careers.
I think Page and Wanamaker were clearly better end players (as seniors) than Trey is now and maybe Graves was. But, I think Trey is better right now than Dixon, Ramon and Keith Benjamin ever were because how he brings play on both ends.
It is rough though because someone like Ronald, who I do not think was better, meant a lot to his teams because he was more comfortable in certain roles were Trey is not. Ronald could safeguard the ball and get someone into their offense better throughout his whole career better than Trey can now. He also was a great shooter to the extent that he could get the shot off.
But, man to man overall, I think Trey is better now than Ronald ever was as a Panther. He probably would not have fit as good on some of those teams though.
If J.J. would have embraced the role and played more defense, I think he would have had a much better career at Pitt. He never could get his head around playing the 4 position even if they would run plays for him and treat him more as a forward with defensive responsibilities near the hoop than anything else.
One of the best things about Justin Champagnie is that he does not care where he plays. He came to Pitt to be a 2-3 but he just wants the floor time and to compete. I wish J.J. was more like that as a Panther, I think he would have been better as a college player and likely a better pro in the long term.
But, he has played well in the G-League when he has been on a roster and has had a nice pro run.
If they would have had J.J. and Durand would have not blown his knee on that last Patterson/Zanna team, they likely could have made a nice run. That was Pitt's last really good team.
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JD would love the D and toughness of Toney as I said. And he would get better D out of Justin to go along with his talent on O. We probably agree there.
What Chair is stating is Trey would not have to be relied on as a scorer on a JD team. He could be a lock down defender and develop on O. He could play a Dixon type role whom he is better than and he’s also better than Benjamin. Also as Chair stated Trey needs to work on his handle a ton. Yes he makes poor decisions but it’s not like he doesn’t have talent as he had some big games as a Frosh. I believe he had 2 games over 30 points.
Was always enamored with JJs athletic ability , shame he never maximized his potential at Pitt .
The only thing that bothers me about Justin:
Once a game gets out of hand, he has a tendency to just camp in the corner and wait for a pass to take a three.
Think he’d have been a 10-12 min a game sub at this point in his career on any of JDs teams .
Think JC will improve his quickness and strength and will be a solid defender as his career progresses .
Speaking of JJ, I ran into him at a league in NYC about 4 years ago and he was a nice as can be. Wished things worked out better at Pitt but he had nothing but good things to say about Pitt. Said he still keeps in touch with many players. He really hit the weights and got bigger and improved his game a lot. As stated when he’s got PT in the G league he’s done pretty good. I believe he played in Argentina but he told me he didn’t want to move his wife and kids so he was happy with the G league for now.
JDs teams were far more talented and not many freshman got “ plenty of PT “. He’d have played , but
sparingly . 10 min at most .
I think he has a tendency to lean too much on shooting for a player whose shot is not quite there yet. He was Pitt's worst shooter this year yet took the most volume, I would guess.
The stroke will be good in time as he has good form. He needs to be a little more consistent with his feet.
As a prep player, he played a lot more off the dribble and was very effective. I think he started to show some of that coming down the stretch as he became more comfortable.
The only area of disappointment that I had with Justin this year was that his recognition on defense was a little slow and he did not box out much of the time rebounding (instead, he relied on his natural gifts). He is a cerebral kid, I thought he would become a consistent defender more quickly like Trey and Au'Diese did as freshmen.
I think it is clear that he has a chance to be a star. I think he was solidly better than Sam Young was as a freshman and has some oddly similar characteristics though his packaging is different. Justin is not quite that level of athlete, but he scores in very similar ways and places that Sam did and he comes with a more skilled and cerebral approach. He also confirmed during an interview after the Wake game that he is actually 6'7," so he has more length than Sam had.
If he works hard, he could go a long way.
JJ didn't want to transfer. It was an issue with his girlfriend (or ex girlfriend I believe) and their child.
I saw him play a few times a few years back when he was with Long Island in the G-League. He looked good, much more comfortable off the bounce.
After seeing this post, I took a look at some of his clips from this season. He has really gotten muscled. He always had a power frame, but it looks like he could probably take 2-3 months of hard training and win a bodybuilding show. It is amazing what some elite athletes are able to do.
I could not imagine the logistics of having a family and being an American basketball player in Europe. So many of these guys have one year runs with teams and then move on; having to consistently uproot kids (especially as they get older) has to be difficult.
I like that the G-League has given these guys an alternative and keeps them firmly in the view of the NBA. I wish that they paid these guys a little more though, especially given the size of contracts these days. I understand why they do not, but $35-40K (though some players get bonuses, are on two-ways, get callups, etc) is just not much cash.
J.J., Artis, Mike Young, Wanamaker, Zanna, etc. all guys that were solid+ G-League players that went overseas after a year or so. I am guessing that if they all talked about the decision, pay would have been the major issue.
Do you still have any connection with the Schenley kids? I am very surprised that D.J. never made it back to the NBA. I guess maybe the money he made was too good compared to taking the risk otherwise.
He improved a ton especially off the bounce as you said. But you ended up being right back in the day as I thought he would do a lot better at Pitt haha. I understated it when I said he hit the weights and got bigger because as you saw he is a tank now.
Yep maybe not the life for a young family in Europe for some but no way I could turn down that money compared to G league money. Most of the better leagues will house a family and put the kids in an International English type school for free.
Not much of a connection to those guys these days but a player I coached knows D.J. well and they both played in the Turkish league (probably the 2nd highest paid league in Europe after Spain). The guy I coached was a really good mid major player and has turned into an exceptional pro...even as his biggest supporter I never imagined he would be this good. Anyways the point I’m getting at is the guy I coached is a totally different player than D.J. (a scoring combo G with a great J) but they are both high level and high paid European players. They don’t make millions though teams like FC Barcelona have 4 guys making over 2 million this year. The guy I coached makes over 700 K (TAX FREE), has a beautiful 2 br condo and a new car all paid for by the team. I asked him if he knows what D.J. makes and he said he doesn’t know the exact amount but it’s in the same range and D.J. may make a little more.
If you are a single guy it’s a great life. You travel around Europe, live in real nice places for free, typically get a car for free and the pretty young ladies don’t hurt. But the best part is tax free salary and the club pays the agents fee.
The main point is if you are a real good player (boarder-line NBA or a top level G league player) maybe give yourself a year or 2 to chase the NBA dream and if not get over to a top Euro league team, (having the right agent is extremely important in Europe) make big $$$ and you can be set for life if you don’t act like an idiot with the $. That’s why most of the Pitt guys you mentioned probably went over seas.
Back when D.J. was trying to make the NBA I never thought he got the look he deserved. Although never a great 3pt shooter his game was/is extremely versatile and is pretty damn complete. D.J. and Kane really represented for Pittsburgh in the TBT making nice cash 4 straight summers.
Honestly, I thought he would be better too at Pitt from his time at South Kent. And, even early during his sophomore year he seemed to be on a different line of growth.
I think he was the type of kid that probably needed a coach to fully get behind him as the key (or a key) offensive weapon. That may have gotten him fully developing more quickly and engaged on both ends. I look back at his first few years and I think that they had a lot of similarity to Sam Young's except Young was more physical near the hoop/rim for his points. But, he never took that leap that Sam did.
When he went to Rutgers, he had more of a green light and it accelerated his development with the ball and situationally. Hindsight is 20/20, but he needed more of that in his college career.
I hate saying this, but I do not think Pitt was the right choice for him. I think if he would have stayed close to home with one of the local majors that needed an injection of talent and would have been given more immediate opportunity (even if prematurely), he would have become a better player and probably made more money in his career. Think of it similar to the playing time/opportunity that guys like Trey, Au'Diese and Justin have gotten with this present Pitt program.
Odd question for you, but who do you think was Pitt's best player this year? I go back and forth on it and think that you could legitimately make an argument for each of their top 4 players. That said, I figure that you would have an interesting take on the question so I ask.
When I saw him at South Kent he was aggressive and in attack mode putting up huge numbers.
As you stated not just him but so many kids pick the wrong schools. They don’t look enough into style of play, the coaching style that fits them best etc.
Yes you can make an argument for several players. Justin had some big games on O and hit the glass but was lost on D many nights. And he didn’t shoot well from 3 although (I believe u said this) he has the stroke that he should and will shoot better. I think the sky is the limit for him. Will get bigger, stronger and better all around. Can develop into an All Conf type of player.
X didn’t always make the best decisions, turned it over too much etc. But he had no help with ball handling duties and although his numbers were down he did have some real nice games. Would be nice if we had another option at PG so he could play off the ball some. But he has talent and will probably bounce back next year...hopefully he does.
Trey still plays better D than X and their numbers were pretty similar. Have no idea what will happen with him, (stay or go) but he seems like a kid that would do better in a system where you pick up full court and trap etc.
Although the 3 above scored more than Toney he did shoot a better FG %, improved a lot more than the other Sophs, and he is the best defender of the group. Trey has talent to be real good on D but I thought his D was better last year. Toney can defend 1 to 4 and even some 5s at the college level. IMO his D can go to another level to where he can lock up top scores most nights. To me he was our best player because he was a 2 way player most nights when the others were not most games.
Ive also heard much better news about Toney than what was being said on this board.
So hopefully he stays put.
If one of the 3 soph leave, I think it'll be Trey.
But maybe they all stay.
Glad to hear it. I am really hoping Trey stays. Of the 3 he has the highest ceiling in my opinion.
After watching so many of these old pitt teams today. Yeah I really would like it if them 3 stay.
Getting old and having real depth would be nice.
I hope you are right about Toney staying. He's willing and able to take on the tough assignments on D. Hopefully he keeps improving on O.
I agree with you. I think by season's end, Toney was the best player. Much more consistent than the others and not only capable of high level defense but also high level offense occasionally.
I do not think that he was more important to them than Xavier and Justin, but I think he was better over the conference season.
I was really disappointed in X's play this season. He improved his floor game but his lack of defense and over-dribbling were very frustrating. I know that it is common for young PGs to go through these things, but it is/was still painful to watch.
With Trey, my belief is that he needs more structure than the others. The concept of free flowing offense sounds great to every kid, but some need more control exerted over their games to maximize their talents. For all of his physical talents, I do not think he is as fluid of a player of X, Justin or even Au'Diese (who I also think would benefit from more structure but has a very adaptable game).
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