Buzz Williams at Vir.Tech and Dan Hurley Rhode Island

[gary2]

Buzz:

1st yr 11-22 2-16 last
2nd yr 20-15 10-8 7th
3rd yr 22-11 10-8 7th

Hurley:

1st yr 8-21 3-13 14 of 16
2nd yr 14-18 5-11 10th
3rd yr 23-10 13-6 tied for 2nd

This is what major rebuilds look like.


These are coaches considered good coaches by this board. I don't think they replaced 11 players in one season either. (Stallings had to)

An aside: Corey Manigault would be scoring 72.3 points a game if he played all 40 minutes, the problem is he only plays 3.1 minutes at his Junior College (as a sophomore)

 

[Jpripper88]

Buzz:

1st yr 11-22 2-16 last
2nd yr 20-15 10-8 7th
3rd yr 22-11 10-8 7th

Hurley:

1st yr 8-21 3-13 14 of 16
2nd yr 14-18 5-11 10th
3rd yr 23-10 13-6 tied for 2nd

This is what major rebuilds look like.


These are coaches considered good coaches by this board. I don't think they replaced 11 players in one season either. (Stallings had to)

An aside: Corey Manigault would be scoring 72.3 points a game if he played all 40 minutes, the problem is he only play 3.1 minutes at his Junior College (as a sophomore)

1. Stallings did not have to replace 11 players. He chose to replace 11 players.

2. Is your post meant to show how much better those coaches are? I mean Stallings isn't going to win 10 conference games in his first 3 years combined and he took over a team that went to the NCAAT the year before he got there.

 

[DiehardPanther]

Buzz:

1st yr 11-22 2-16 last
2nd yr 20-15 10-8 7th
3rd yr 22-11 10-8 7th

Hurley:

1st yr 8-21 3-13 14 of 16
2nd yr 14-18 5-11 10th
3rd yr 23-10 13-6 tied for 2nd

This is what major rebuilds look like.


These are coaches considered good coaches by this board. I don't think they replaced 11 players in one season either. (Stallings had to)

An aside: Corey Manigault would be scoring 72.3 points a game if he played all 40 minutes, the problem is he only play 3.1 minutes at his Junior College (as a sophomore)

Their win totals increased, the teams got better, and good recruits were brought in. None of that applies to Stallings.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Stallings is in year two. He didn't inherit a moribund program or a major rebuild; he created one.

Is Stallings going to get to 20 wins, or get the program into the top half of the conference, and to a post-season in year 3, or 4, or 5?

And it is URI, not RIU.

 

[billyberoux]

1. Stallings did not have to replace 11 players. He chose to replace 11 players.

2. Is your post meant to show how much better those coaches are? I mean Stallings isn't going to win 10 conference games in his first 3 years combined and he took over a team that went to the NCAAT the year before he got there.

Which of the players Stallings chose to replace would have made this team better?

 

[steeltown24]

Which of the players Stallings chose to replace would have made this team better?

Remember Stallings was here for a year before this one. If he thought they were that bad, he didn’t have to have them here last year. He also underachieved last year with seniors.

 

[PittFathead87]

And he lost cam Johnson and his own top recruit. Huge fails.

 

[gary2]

Stallings is in year two. He didn't inherit a moribund program or a major rebuild; he created one.

Is Stallings going to get to 20 wins, or get the program into the top half of the conference, and to a post-season in year 3, or 4, or 5?

And it is URI, not RIU.

Thanks for the correction. Here is one for you:

And the major rebuild was to start this year not last year, no matter the coach.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Thanks for the correction. Here is one for you:

And the major rebuild was to start this year not last year, no matter the coach.

Nope.

 

[DT_PITT]

Buzz:

1st yr 11-22 2-16 last
2nd yr 20-15 10-8 7th
3rd yr 22-11 10-8 7th

Hurley:

1st yr 8-21 3-13 14 of 16
2nd yr 14-18 5-11 10th
3rd yr 23-10 13-6 tied for 2nd

This is what major rebuilds look like.


These are coaches considered good coaches by this board. I don't think they replaced 11 players in one season either. (Stallings had to)

An aside: Corey Manigault would be scoring 72.3 points a game if he played all 40 minutes, the problem is he only plays 3.1 minutes at his Junior College (as a sophomore)

The difference thus far in relation to Buzz Williams is that Buzz's recruiting in the first and second year that built where he is now.

Just about three weeks after he signed on to be the Coach at Va Tech, Williams got a commitment from Ahmed Hill, a top 75 recruit. He also grabbed two other players a few weeks after that. As we know, Stallings did not recruit any players for his first season.

In his next recruiting class, Williams signed a truly outstanding class with three top 125 players. Carr might be considered at that level. This is the same class where Stallings had the true opportunity to promise tons of big time ACC playing time into a program that was still considered an NCAA tournament program, especially as a new coach into the conference. This was Stallings' largest missed opportunity, since he was in on many, many top 100 players, especially Kimari Lawrence, and he was unable to secure these high end commitments.

For the class he's working on now, we all know that Stallings missed on all of his high level targets, and even most of his next group of targets with the exception of Golden. Kingsby is a commitment received after missing on many other targets.

The reality so far is that Stallings just hasn't had the necessary success in that same recruiting time frame to breed much if any optimism.

I'm sure there would be much, much more patience and/or optimism if we felt like we were getting the players needed to get back on track. Heck, Ralph Willard got a commitment from Top 30 player Vonteego Cummings five months after he arrived. He soon added top 50 player Mike Gill, and eventually top 30 Mark Blount. Knowing these level of recruits were in the fold gave reasons for hope. The recruiting we have seen thus far from Stallings doesn't give that impression.

 

[sumomann]

The difference thus far in relation to Buzz Williams is that Buzz's recruiting in the first and second year that built where he is now.

Just about three weeks after he signed on to be the Coach at Va Tech, Williams got a commitment from Ahmed Hill, a top 75 recruit. He also grabbed two other players a few weeks after that. As we know, Stallings did not recruit any players for his first season.

In his next recruiting class, Williams signed a truly outstanding class with three top 125 players. Carr might be considered at that level. This is the same class where Stallings had the true opportunity to promise tons of big time ACC playing time into a program that was still considered an NCAA tournament program, especially as a new coach into the conference. This was Stallings' largest missed opportunity, since he was in on many, many top 100 players, especially Kimari Lawrence, and he was unable to secure these high end commitments.

For the class he's working on now, we all know that Stallings missed on all of his high level targets, and even most of his next group of targets with the exception of Golden. Kingsby is a commitment received after missing on many other targets.

The reality so far is that Stallings just hasn't had the necessary success in that same recruiting time frame to breed much if any optimism.

I'm sure there would be much, much more patience and/or optimism if we felt like we were getting the players needed to get back on track. Heck, Ralph Willard got a commitment from Top 30 player Vonteego Cummings five months after he arrived. He soon added top 50 player Mike Gill, and eventually top 30 Mark Blount. Knowing these level of recruits were in the fold gave reasons for hope. The recruiting we have seen thus far from Stallings doesn't give that impression.

Ralph Willard at Pitt- 63 and 82. One winning season which resulted in an nit bid. Sometimes big time recruits don’t work out.

 

[Jpripper88]

Which of the players Stallings chose to replace would have made this team better?

Definitely Cam Johnson, who wouldn't have left if Dixon was here. Not sure on the others because many didn't get the chance to play. Certainly not like many of the flawed freshman now getting run. Maybe Kithcart. Maybe Thompson would have helped if his buddy wasn't run.

Point is, the situation wasn't great, but Stallings chose to make it worse at every turn and hasn't recruited even close to as well as Buzz.

 

[DT_PITT]

Ralph Willard at Pitt- 63 and 82. One winning season which resulted in an nit bid. Sometimes big time recruits don’t work out.

No doubt. But the problem for Stallings right now is that he isn't even bringing any kind of recruits that get anyone excited about our future.

 

[gary2]

The difference thus far in relation to Buzz Williams is that Buzz's recruiting in the first and second year that built where he is now.

Just about three weeks after he signed on to be the Coach at Va Tech, Williams got a commitment from Ahmed Hill, a top 75 recruit. He also grabbed two other players a few weeks after that. As we know, Stallings did not recruit any players for his first season.

In his next recruiting class, Williams signed a truly outstanding class with three top 125 players. Carr might be considered at that level. This is the same class where Stallings had the true opportunity to promise tons of big time ACC playing time into a program that was still considered an NCAA tournament program, especially as a new coach into the conference. This was Stallings' largest missed opportunity, since he was in on many, many top 100 players, especially Kimari Lawrence, and he was unable to secure these high end commitments.

For the class he's working on now, we all know that Stallings missed on all of his high level targets, and even most of his next group of targets with the exception of Golden. Kingsby is a commitment received after missing on many other targets.

The reality so far is that Stallings just hasn't had the necessary success in that same recruiting time frame to breed much if any optimism.

I'm sure there would be much, much more patience and/or optimism if we felt like we were getting the players needed to get back on track. Heck, Ralph Willard got a commitment from Top 30 player Vonteego Cummings five months after he arrived. He soon added top 50 player Mike Gill, and eventually top 30 Mark Blount. Knowing these level of recruits were in the fold gave reasons for hope. The recruiting we have seen thus far from Stallings doesn't give that impression.

And with those 3 recruits Williams signed weeks after his arrival, his record was what his first season?

And with his next truly outstanding class (additional 3 top 125 players), he tied for 7th the year after that and 7th again the year after that?

And where exactly is his program now?

 

[DT_PITT]

And with those 3 recruits Williams signed weeks after his arrival, his record was what his first season?

But that's not the point. The point is that Buzz got these good recruits, and that's why people felt optimistic. Stallings has not done so.

 

[Jpripper88]

Thanks for the correction. Here is one for you:

And the major rebuild was to start this year not last year, no matter the coach.

Of course he did a terrible job coaching and managing the roster last year, too, but let's give you that. Let's say this year compares to their year 1s. We are, at absolute best, going to go 10-22 (2-17) this year. Do you expect to even win 14 (and 5-6 in conference) games next year, let alone 20 (and 10) games?

If you say yes to either of those you are probably 1. The only one and 2. Lying. However, let's set that as the minimum for Stallings to get a 4th year, ok? I'd be fine with that because I don't think there is a chance in hell we can win 20 games next year. I'd say it is 10% we can win 14 and lower for 5 conference wins.

 

[gary2]

But that's not the point. The point is that Buzz got these good recruits, and that's why people felt optimistic. Stallings has not done so.

It is nice they still feel optimistic. All those great recruiting rankings and the best they have achieved is a tie for 7th.

 

[Jpripper88]

And with those 3 recruits Williams signed weeks after his arrival, his record was what his first season?

And with his next truly outstanding class (additional 3 top 125 players), he tied for 7th the year after that and 7th again the year after that?

And where exactly is his program now?

But we don't have the good recruits (now on the 3rd class) and we will be finishing 14th, 15th, and 12th+ (very generous) in Stallings first 3 years. Finishing 7th and 7th sounds amazing.

 

[Jpripper88]

It is nice they still feel optimistic. All those great recruiting rankings and the best they have achieved is a tie for 7th.

WE DON'T HAVE THE RECRUITS OR FINISHES EVEN CLOSE TO THAT NOW OR ON THE HORIZON.

 

[DT_PITT]

It is nice they still feel optimistic. All those great recruiting rankings and the best they have achieved is a tie for 7th.

I'm not sure what you are getting at or what you are trying to make a case for.

 

[gary2]

Which of the players Stallings chose to replace would have made this team better?

Don't wait for an answer. He will not provide one.

 

[Jpripper88]

Don't wait for an answer. He will not provide one.

I did. It was posted long before you posted this and you avoided honestly responding to several posts.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Don't wait for an answer. He will not provide one.

The prospect of being by far the worst team in the conference-
I think it’s safe to say our talent level did not increase

 

[gary2]

I'm not sure what you are getting at or what you are trying to make a case for.

I think people can be blinded by recruiting rankings. Obviously you think Williams has recruited very well. I merely point out that so far, his impressive recruiting rankings have not generated a result better than a tie for 7th place.

Before our game with Vir.Tech, I indicated I was not that impressed with their roster. Maybe you feel differently. I thought we had a chance to win if Luther played and I still do. You probably don't.

Williams is in his 4th season at Vir.Tech - Stallings is in the first year of his rebuild Succeeding in the ACC is tough - Taking everything into consideration, I don't think we are that far from being Vir.Tech. I feel certain you don't agree. After the Geo.Tech game, probably most don't.

We have 14 games remaining. I am willing to wait on the final results - See what Stallings can do without Luther.

If Stallings does not get fired at years end, I am willing to see what next season brings. If there is not a noticeable improvement in our record (not optimistic recruiting rankings), I agree it is time for a change.

Lets add Williams and Hurleys 2nd years together and divide by 2 - How does 17-16 feel?

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

I think people can be blinded by recruiting rankings. Obviously you think Williams has recruited very well. I merely point out that so far, his impressive recruiting rankings have not generated a result better than a tie for 7th place.

Before our game with Vir.Tech, I indicated I was not that impressed with their roster. Maybe you feel differently. I thought we had a chance to win if Luther played and I still do. You probably don't.

Williams is in his 4th season at Vir.Tech - Stallings is in the first year of his rebuild Succeeding in the ACC is tough - Taking everything into consideration, I don't think we are that far from being Vir.Tech. I feel certain you don't agree. After the Geo.Tech game, probably most don't.

We have 14 games remaining. I am willing to wait on the final results.

If Stallings does not get fired at years end, I am willing to see what next season brings. If there is not a noticeable improvement in our record (not optimistic recruiting rankings), I agree it is time for a change.

And we lost by 14

 

[gary2]

Ralph Willard at Pitt- 63 and 82. One winning season which resulted in an nit bid. Sometimes big time recruits don’t work out.

Exactly - Willard definitely could recruit - I thought he was a great hire - To this day, I can't understand why it didn't work out - If he could have a do over in a parallel universe, I would bet it would work.

 

[gary2]

I did. It was posted long before you posted this and you avoided honestly responding to several posts.

Actually I was referencing Crazy Paco's: Nope. - My mistake.

I had you on ignore until just a few minutes ago. I wasn't aware that billyberoux asked you anything.

So what would that lineup have looked like? shooting pcts last season

Nix .375 .000 .692
Luther (injured?)
Cam (assuming he stayed)
Wilson .258 .000 .583
Kithcart .304 .190 .318

Manigault .263 .000 .625
Clark injured?
Milligan .280 .327 .875

and 5 players Dixon or someone else would have recruited (recruiting has become difficult at Pitt) - Looks like a rebuild to me

 

[gary2]

And we lost by 14

True, but it was a very close 14 (trying to be funny)

 

[DT_PITT]

I think people can be blinded by recruiting rankings. Obviously you think Williams has recruited very well. I merely point out that so far, his impressive recruiting rankings have not generated a result better than a tie for 7th place.

Before our game with Vir.Tech, I indicated I was not that impressed with their roster. Maybe you feel differently. I thought we had a chance to win if Luther played and I still do. You probably don't.

Williams is in his 4th season at Vir.Tech - Stallings is in the first year of his rebuild Succeeding in the ACC is tough - Taking everything into consideration, I don't think we are that far from being Vir.Tech. I feel certain you don't agree. After the Geo.Tech game, probably most don't.

We have 14 games remaining. I am willing to wait on the final results - See what Stallings can do without Luther.

If Stallings does not get fired at years end, I am willing to see what next season brings. If there is not a noticeable improvement in our record (not optimistic recruiting rankings), I agree it is time for a change.

Lets add Williams and Hurleys 2nd years together and divide by 2 - How does 17-16 feel?

I will never begrudge you for trying to develop a reasoning for remaining patient and waiting for more information before final conclusions.

 

[gary2]

I will never begrudge you for trying to develop a reasoning for remaining patient and waiting for more information before final conclusions.

Thank You - I did say I was extremely disappointed witht the Geo.Tech game (included in my post tonight concerning yesterdays game)

 

[DT_PITT]

Thank You - I did say I was extremely disappointed (in my remarks tonight concerning yesterdays game)

The game was disappointing for all of us.

There were two things about the game that were problematic for me. First, I just didn't see that effort across the board, and from Terrel Brown especially.

Second, it was the first time that I was mostly convinced that our current group does not turn into an NIT team next year, and the NCAA after that. Just not enough ability even with adding Luther, Ellison, Golden and Kingsby.

 

[gary2]

The game was disappointing for all of us.

There were two things about the game that were problematic for me. First, I just didn't see that effort across the board, and from Terrel Brown especially.

Second, it was the first time that I was mostly convinced that our current group does not turn into an NIT team next year, and the NCAA after that. Just not enough ability even with adding Luther, Ellison, Golden and Kingsby.

I think Dick Groat had a strong point about the team having to adjust to life without Ryan. Style of play was created around Ryan. With Ryan gone, structure has deteriorated. A new structure needs to be established. I think that is what we are seeing rather than a true team lack of effort. I do think certain players are becoming problematic.

Definitely need a point and a physical big. No scholarships to give. I was hoping for no or very little turnover. Stallings seems to be becoming disillusioned with a few (Frame, Brown and even Stevenson). Turnover now seems inevitable and necessary.

 

[NCanton Panther]

I think Dick Groat had a strong point about the team having to adjust to life without Ryan. Style of play was created around Ryan. With Ryan gone, structure has deteriorated. A new structure needs to be established. I think that is what we are seeing rather than a true team lack of effort. I do think certain players are becoming problematic.

Definitely need a point and a physical big. No scholarships to give. I was hoping for no or very little turnover. Stallings seems to be becoming disillusioned with a few (Frame, Brown and even Stevenson). Turnover now seems inevitable and necessary.

I think he’s disillusioned with Frame and Stevenson’s decision-making and with Brown’s lack of effort or aggressiveness. And rightly so.

 

[levance2]

Stallings seems to be becoming disillusioned with a few (Frame, Brown and even Stevenson). Turnover now seems inevitable and necessary.

What's the common thread here? Hmmm. Can't be the coach, can it?

 

[whirlybird optio]

Buzz:

1st yr 11-22 2-16 last
2nd yr 20-15 10-8 7th
3rd yr 22-11 10-8 7th

Hurley:

1st yr 8-21 3-13 14 of 16
2nd yr 14-18 5-11 10th
3rd yr 23-10 13-6 tied for 2nd

This is what major rebuilds look like.


These are coaches considered good coaches by this board. I don't think they replaced 11 players in one season either. (Stallings had to)

An aside: Corey Manigault would be scoring 72.3 points a game if he played all 40 minutes, the problem is he only plays 3.1 minutes at his Junior College (as a sophomore)

KS, if he gets another year, has to make the NCAAT or get very, very close next season. Even a 17-16 record, which might be 12 cupcake OOC wins and a 5-13 ACC record isn’t going to save his job.

He’d be 10-44 or something like that after 3 seasons in the ACC, not nearly good enough.

No one thinks KS is a good coach either, so not sure why we are comparing him with good ones. He’s a mediocre coach, always has been, always will be.

And again, based upon record, recruiting, quality of assistant coach, EFFORT, attendance, I continue to maintain that of all plausible coaches we could have hired, Pitt is in worse shape now than we would be with any other plausible coach. Destroyed at home by a lower division GT team, outhusteled, it’s completely inexcusable. (And their freshman are better than ours).

 

[gary2]

I think he’s disillusioned with Frame and Stevenson’s decision-making and with Brown’s lack of effort or aggressiveness. And rightly so.

Me too

 

[DiehardPanther]

Me too

So Stallings was disillusioned with Wilson, Nix, Manigault, Kithcart, Clark, Frame, Stevenson, and Brown. LOL. The PROBLEM is STALLINGS!

 

[gary2]

I think he’s disillusioned with Frame and Stevenson’s decision-making and with Brown’s lack of effort or aggressiveness. And rightly so.

We definitely need to keep Stevenson. I wish Brown moved better, but I think he can develop into a serviceable big. We certainly need Frame for this season. If Frame would just play a little smarter he can be a useful player.

The team is struggling to find where everyone fits in.

One week it is get rid of Kene, now (that he might have found his shot) he looks like the best of the bigs.

 

[mbrannagan]

Buzz:

1st yr 11-22 2-16 last
2nd yr 20-15 10-8 7th
3rd yr 22-11 10-8 7th

Hurley:

1st yr 8-21 3-13 14 of 16
2nd yr 14-18 5-11 10th
3rd yr 23-10 13-6 tied for 2nd

This is what major rebuilds look like.


These are coaches considered good coaches by this board. I don't think they replaced 11 players in one season either. (Stallings had to)

An aside: Corey Manigault would be scoring 72.3 points a game if he played all 40 minutes, the problem is he only plays 3.1 minutes at his Junior College (as a sophomore)

Corey screwed up to start the year and has struggled with a bit of a leg injury, but it should be worth noting that Indian Hills would probably give Pitt a run for their money, that is a talented team with some D1 talent. I also don't think their MPGs are correct, so he has played a few more minutes than that and is not scoring at such a prolific rate.

 

[mbrannagan]

Actually I was referencing Crazy Paco's: Nope. - My mistake.

I had you on ignore until just a few minutes ago. I wasn't aware that billyberoux asked you anything.

So what would that lineup have looked like? shooting pcts last season

Nix .375 .000 .692
Luther (injured?)
Cam (assuming he stayed)
Wilson .258 .000 .583
Kithcart .304 .190 .318

Manigault .263 .000 .625
Clark injured?
Milligan .280 .327 .875

and 5 players Dixon or someone else would have recruited (recruiting has become difficult at Pitt) - Looks like a rebuild to me

I hate that Stallings gets a pass for Manigault, Kitchart and Clark and that all of those guys get blamed on Dixon. He could have told those guys that he would release them from scholarship if they liked and they could look around. He didn't, he chose to encourage them to remain committed, while gracious, there was also a graceful way to get out of those commitments if they weren't fits for what he wanted to do. He also left open a scholarship spot, no recruits, no grad transfers, no sit a year transfers, nothing. he basically punted a way of putting his stamp on recruiting.

My take is that if he knew he was coming in to a potential rebuild then at least bring in one of your own players. Plenty of coaches get hired in March and add to their rosters, a great deal of the players on Pitt's team this year were added after March. Its not like he came in from Siberia and had no recruiting connections and needed to rebuild his network, the man didn't go a day without a job.