Coulibaly and Brown

[JS School]

We already have 1 developmental big on the roster, Terrell Brown. He has not shown any signs of being a capable ACC starting center despite being given loads of playing time. While Coulibaly may not be ready, all he has to do is rebound and finish better than Brown and that's not asking a lot as well. If he cant start over Brown next year, that's a really bad sign.

Is Brown really a developmental big? It seems you are saying he is a non-developmental big.

We used to be proud of our four year players who developed over their careers. Several were conference most improved players. Now we just trash them after their first and second years.

 

[CScott14]

I think where people are confused is with our statements. Brown being the extremely likely starter next year, and Brown being a bench player for a championship team are both true statements. No sh*t, he wouldn’t start for duke. Are we duke? We went 3-15 and are nowhere near the level of talent of other teams. There are some people who think Brown isn’t deserving of a scholarship, and I honestly doubt those people actually understand basketball. Hope you guys enjoy it if he transfers and puts up good numbers for a tourney team 2 years in a row.

 

[below0w]

I think where people are confused is with our statements. Brown being the extremely likely starter next year, and Brown being a bench player for a championship team are both true statements. No sh*t, he wouldn’t start for duke. Are we duke? We went 3-15 and are nowhere near the level of talent of other teams. There are some people who think Brown isn’t deserving of a scholarship, and I honestly doubt those people actually understand basketball. Hope you guys enjoy it if he transfers and puts up good numbers for a tourney team 2 years in a row.

How's he going to do that when he can't catch a basketball?

If your point is that the grass isn't always greener, sure, Pitt isn't going to be in for many top big men, so we might replace Brown with Brown 2.0.

If your point is that Terrell Brown is a good player and that people are shortsighted for writing him off, please. He's awful. He does nothing well. Even his blocked shots deserve an asterisk next to them because he completely sells out for damn near every attempt.

He's a net negative and I don't see that changing, although spending an offseason with a modified Jugs machine would be a decent start.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I think where people are confused is with our statements. Brown being the extremely likely starter next year, and Brown being a bench player for a championship team are both true statements. No sh*t, he wouldn’t start for duke. Are we duke? We went 3-15 and are nowhere near the level of talent of other teams. There are some people who think Brown isn’t deserving of a scholarship, and I honestly doubt those people actually understand basketball. Hope you guys enjoy it if he transfers and puts up good numbers for a tourney team 2 years in a row.

Brown is a bench player for a bubble team and would not get off the bench for a championship team. If he is the starter or has to play significant minutes next year, we have no chance. I am sorry but that is true.

 

[DT_PITT]

Brown is a bench player for a bubble team and would not get off the bench for a championship team. If he is the starter or has to play significant minutes next year, we have no chance. I am sorry but that is true.

I don't agree with you on this -- at least not all the way.

First off, hopefully Brown will continue to improve. Will he improve? I simply do not know if he will, nor how much , and I certainly understand why anyone would have serious questions if he will improve.

Second, I believe any fair viewing of the way Brown played this year has to recognize that he had more than his share of moments when he was very decent out there. He even had a few games when he was a difference maker. Of course, it's also fair to express that there were at least as any many times, if not many more, when he was invisible (at best) or maddening (at worst).

But I do believe that he will still play significant minutes next year, and we could be a bubble team with him started provided he continues his trajectory upward, even a relatively small amount.

As an example, I use Christ Koumadje at Florida State. He played significant minutes for Florida State averaging 6 1/2 points, 5 1/2 rebounds, and a block and a half a game. Terrell played about 2 more minutes a game than Christ and averaged 5.7/4.5/1.8. And Christ is a senior.

But the rest of the team needs to improve of course. And we absolutely need more help in the paint. But by the time he's a senior, he could be a better contributor than what you are suggesting.

Nonetheless, I agree that he's not a starter on an Elite 8 kind of team

 

[PhysicalOatmeal]

Gary McGee was horrible his first two years — I’d argue worse than brown, and he became a serviceable player. Idk why people won’t give Terrell a chance to at least be adequate. It’s like they want him to fail

 

[HailToPitt1985]

Brown can develop with proper coaching and some work on his part. I don't know if he has the right coach at this time as that jury is still out. I'm hoping he does and continues to mature and improve.

 

[below0w]

As an example, I use Christ Koumadje at Florida State. He played significant minutes for Florida State averaging 6 1/2 points, 5 1/2 rebounds, and a block and a half a game. Terrell played about 2 more minutes a game than Christ and averaged 5.7/4.5/1.8. And Christ is a senior.

Koumadje is 7'4. He doesn't need to do much with the ball to be a net positive because his presence alone is disruptive. I really don't see how he's comparable at all to Brown.

 

[Chescat]

I'm more bullish on Brown than many in this thread--I think he can give us 15 to 20 good minutes a game this season if he improves. But aside from that, we don't need a center. You can play 2-3 guards and 2-3 forwards in today's game. The idea that Brown or Coulibaly (or Sy or whomever) HAS TO be our center this year just isn't right.

No center?...Ok, you make a good point. Maybe no center in the traditional sense,
but you need Bigs regardless of what you want to call them. Did you see what the ACC Bigs did to us. Va Tech has a center who literally killed us. Duke, NC...even Wake Forrest. The Clemson Bigs were men compared to our Bigs.
Call em what you want, but we desparately need legitimate Bigs regardless of
what they're called. So maybe we're saying the same thing. No center as
such, but Bigs are needed.

 

[Chescat]

But I do believe that he will still play significant minutes next year, and we could be a bubble team with him started provided he continues his trajectory upward, even a relatively small amount.

I have to go with SMF on this one.I can't see us as a bubble team with Brown
starting. Obviously we would improve as a team if he, as you stated.....
"continues his trajectory upward." IMO it would take far more than a
"relatively small amount" of improvement to get us to the "bubble" level.
He literally disappears for large amounts of time. I'm not hating on the guy.
I do see some value to him, especially if he come off the bench as a
backup or as a second Big playing alongside another Big.
Just my viewpoint, but we're going nowhere if he is our inside presence
next year.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

I feel the same about Brown's potential. On a bubble/NIT team he could not be the primary big, IMO. I think he has potential as a face the hoop guy paired with a physically strong back to the basket guy and as a backup to that kind of player. But, I just don't see real potential for him to become a legit effective back to the hoop guy.

 

[DT_PITT]

I have to go with SMF on this one.I can't see us as a bubble team with Brown
starting. Obviously we would improve as a team if he, as you stated.....
"continues his trajectory upward." IMO it would take far more than a
"relatively small amount" of improvement to get us to the "bubble" level.
He literally disappears for large amounts of time. I'm not hating on the guy.
I do see some value to him, especially if he come off the bench as a
backup or as a second Big playing alongside another Big.
Just my viewpoint, but we're going nowhere if he is our inside presence
next year.

At the end of his sophomore year, how many Pitt fans said “we will be a #1 seed in 2 years with Gary McGhee as our center?

This answer is none.

What I am saying is:

1. Terrell is probably a bit better than his greatest detractors think he is.

2. He could ger better.

Having said this I agree that it’s hard to think our team will be much better at all if Terrell’s improvement is next to none, but he’s still playing as many minutes as he did this past season.

 

[PhysicalOatmeal]

I don’t think anyone on this board is excited about brown having such a big role on the team — this whole thread is about whether coulibaly should start over him, and the answer is probably not from day one. But we’ll see. It’s entirely possible that coulibaly gets a few more minutes than brown sooner than later, but brown would “start” over him to start the season. Hopefully Sy comes here so we can just delete this thread lol

 

[DT_PITT]

I don’t think anyone on this board is excited about brown having such a big role on the team — this whole thread is about whether coulibaly should start over him, and the answer is probably not from day one. But we’ll see. It’s entirely possible that coulibaly gets a few more minutes than brown sooner than later, but brown would “start” over him to start the season. Hopefully Sy comes here so we can just delete this thread lol

I agree with all of this although I’m having a hard time understanding just what the hell physical oatmeal is.

 

[PhysicalOatmeal]

I agree with all of this although I’m having a hard time understanding just what the hell physical oatmeal is.

Yeah I don’t have any real answer for that lol. Guess I just thought it’d stand out

 

[Fsgolfdr]

I’ll always remember John Thompson ( the dad ) talking about recruiting centers yrs ago . He said there were probably 10 guys at most per class that had the ability to be impactful as a freshman . Remove 3 or 4 of them due to academic reasons then scratch off 1 to Duke 1 to Ky & 1 to Kansas and that now leaves 4 or 5 guys for the rest of the country . From now on another 1 or 2 of those guys will just skip college . It’s not that easy to find to find a freshman center then or now .

 

[Cavalier Panther]

I’ll always remember John Thompson ( the dad ) talking about recruiting centers yrs ago . He said there were probably 10 guys at most per class that had the ability to be impactful as a freshman . Remove 3 or 4 of them due to academic reasons then scratch off 1 to Duke 1 to Ky & 1 to Kansas and that now leaves 4 or 5 guys for the rest of the country . From now on another 1 or 2 of those guys will just skip college . It’s not that easy to find to find a freshman center then or now .

Thank. You.

People, Think of Steve Adams. He was highly rated and is now an NBA starter. As a freshman, he was solid and showed potential, but wasn't awe inspiring. And he was one of the top centers in his class.

A dude like Greg oden is once a decade. This board think shaq in his prime just grows on trees.

 

[Chescat]

I’ll always remember John Thompson ( the dad ) talking about recruiting centers yrs ago . He said there were probably 10 guys at most per class that had the ability to be impactful as a freshman . Remove 3 or 4 of them due to academic reasons then scratch off 1 to Duke 1 to Ky & 1 to Kansas and that now leaves 4 or 5 guys for the rest of the country . From now on another 1 or 2 of those guys will just skip college . It’s not that easy to find to find a freshman center then or now .

Yup!....and that is exactly why I want to see a grad transfer and/or a JUCO Big.
That way Coulibaly can be brought along slowly instead of being thrown into the fire
the way Brown was as a Freshman. If we don't get a JUCO (Sy) or a Grad Transfer,
then Brown most likely starts with Coulibaly or another Frosh as his backup (s).
This latter scenario will only give us marginal improvement IMO.

 

[Drew1208]

Brown shou

I’ll always remember John Thompson ( the dad ) talking about recruiting centers yrs ago . He said there were probably 10 guys at most per class that had the ability to be impactful as a freshman . Remove 3 or 4 of them due to academic reasons then scratch off 1 to Duke 1 to Ky & 1 to Kansas and that now leaves 4 or 5 guys for the rest of the country . From now on another 1 or 2 of those guys will just skip college . It’s not that easy to find to find a freshman center then or now .

Exactly.

 

[DT_PITT]

I’ll always remember John Thompson ( the dad ) talking about recruiting centers yrs ago . He said there were probably 10 guys at most per class that had the ability to be impactful as a freshman . Remove 3 or 4 of them due to academic reasons then scratch off 1 to Duke 1 to Ky & 1 to Kansas and that now leaves 4 or 5 guys for the rest of the country . From now on another 1 or 2 of those guys will just skip college . It’s not that easy to find to find a freshman center then or now .

Completely, completely agree! This is why Terrell Brown is likely to be our starting center next year (as long as he doesn't transfer of course). It's not that he'll be that good, but he'll most likely be the best we'll have next year. To SMF's point, perhaps that means we won't be even a bubble team this year. Perhaps he's right.

But no one ever suggested that the road back would be quick or easy. That is, until Capel is able to one of the couple guys left for the rest of the country Thompson was talking about.

 

[DT_PITT]

Yup!....and that is exactly why I want to see a grad transfer and/or a JUCO Big.
That way Coulibaly can be brought along slowly instead of being thrown into the fire
the way Brown was as a Freshman. If we don't get a JUCO (Sy) or a Grad Transfer,
then Brown most likely starts with Coulibaly or another Frosh as his backup (s).
This latter scenario will only give us marginal improvement IMO.

Don't disagree here with the exception that there aren't many grad transfer centers who be better than Brown will be next year. Nelson-Adoda and Maia weren't.

 

[Delpanther]

I think where people are confused is with our statements. Brown being the extremely likely starter next year, and Brown being a bench player for a championship team are both true statements. No sh*t, he wouldn’t start for duke. Are we duke? We went 3-15 and are nowhere near the level of talent of other teams. There are some people who think Brown isn’t deserving of a scholarship, and I honestly doubt those people actually understand basketball. Hope you guys enjoy it if he transfers and puts up good numbers for a tourney team 2 years in a row.[/QU

No fire in the belly...plays marshmellow soft. Has nothing to do with experience.

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

I think what we will mostly likely see as we add bigs is a lot of rotation and substitutions, based off of game situation and flow and not having 1 guy eat up tons of minutes over another.

Agree, and the one that has it going that night will play more. Brown was serviceable when he was awake and felt like playing. Unfortunately, he sure likes to sleep a lot.

 

[Chescat]

Don't disagree here with the exception that there aren't many grad transfer centers would be better than Brown will be next year. Nelson-Adoda and Maia weren't.

I still don't see Brown as our starting center next year. I agree there are probably
no Freshmen available at this time who would start.. As far, as grad transfers, I don't know who is available, but I'm hoping one is, or the JUCO (Sy) comes to Pitt. If that were to occur IMO Brown will not start.
As far as Maia is concerned we'll have to agree to disagree. I saw him as better than Brown. My original point remains....if Brown is our inside presence next season,
we're in trouble. I want him to stay; I see him as a viable backup with limited
minutes.

 

[DT_PITT]

I still don't see Brown as our starting center next year. I agree there are probably
no Freshmen available at this time who would start.. As far, as grad transfers, I don't know who is available, but I'm hoping one is, or the JUCO (Sy) comes to Pitt. If that were to occur IMO Brown will not start.
As far as Maia is concerned we'll have to agree to disagree. I saw him as better than Brown. My original point remains....if Brown is our inside presence next season,
we're in trouble. I want him to stay; I see him as a viable backup with limited
minutes.

Don't forget that Maia averaged 2.0 ppg in 12 minutes. He wasn't nearly as productive as Brown (not nearly as maddening either I must say). But he was really just our back up center (Young was our main center).

I think I actually liked Maia better than Brown. I know he didn't make yell at the TV as much Brown does, that's for sure. I think Maia was aided by the fact that there wasn't much of a chance for him to do anything with the ball on offense.

Again, I don't disagree with the notion that if Brown is our inside presence next season, then we may be in trouble. I think he's likely to get a little bit better. I don't expect much beyond that.

I guess the good news with Brown is that he has demonstrated that when his switch is in the "on" position, then he actually looks pretty decent, far beyond what someone like Maia was capable of. The problem is that the switch being "on" for most of a game rarely happens, and the switch never even comes on at all in even more games.

But if Coach Capel can figure out what it takes to get that switch on for most of most games .... we might really have something!

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

At the end of his sophomore year, how many Pitt fans said “we will be a #1 seed in 2 years with Gary McGhee as our center?

This answer is none.

What I am saying is:

1. Terrell is probably a bit better than his greatest detractors think he is.

2. He could ger better.

Having said this I agree that it’s hard to think our team will be much better at all if Terrell’s improvement is next to none, but he’s still playing as many minutes as he did this past season.

I wished people would stop with the Gary McGhee comparisons. He played sparingly on 2 Pitt teams that had semi-realistic shots at winning the whole damn thing. No, I did not think he was any good but I could at least see he was big and tough. He at least had the build and frame of a Pitt Center of those days. With Brown, we have a large sample size to show what he cant do. Brown has problems you just cant fix. He cannot jump that high. That's a major major problem. It's why he gets his shot blocked all the time. And he is slow to get off the ground. He has bad hands, bad feet, and cant rebound. The one thing he CAN do is make a 15 footer but that isnt what we need. I just cant see this team getting anywhere near the bubble with him as a starter

 

[DT_PITT]

I wished people would stop with the Gary McGhee comparisons. He played sparingly on 2 Pitt teams that had semi-realistic shots at winning the whole damn thing. No, I did not think he was any good but I could at least see he was big and tough. He at least had the build and frame of a Pitt Center of those days. With Brown, we have a large sample size to show what he cant do. Brown has problems you just cant fix. He cannot jump that high. That's a major major problem. It's why he gets his shot blocked all the time. And he is slow to get off the ground. He has bad hands, bad feet, and cant rebound. The one thing he CAN do is make a 15 footer but that isnt what we need. I just cant see this team getting anywhere near the bubble with him as a starter

I don't disagree with much of your assessment. I can understand why you believe that he has problems you just can't fix. But perhaps some of them can be improved with better conditioning, such as the speed and height of his jump. I also think some of his issues can be improved with experience and confidence. Sometimes he jumps slowly because is seems to take a split second longer to make the "decision" to do so.

I'm not saying a significant improvement is likely. In fact, it's far from that. But it is a bit more possible than I believe you are suggesting.

But don't forget SMF -- he was a starter when the Panthers were 2-2 and YOU were predicting they would make the NCAA tournament.

If he can just play close to how he played early in the ACC season, I think the Panther might be OK. In a five game stretch from L-ville to Duke, Brown averaged 8.4 PPG, 6.4 RPG and 3 blocks per game.

Of course, he followed up that stretch of five games with a 4 game stretch where he was scoreless in 3 of them (and 16 in the other). Like I said, too often the switch is in the off position, but other (fewer) times it's on.

So I agree that some of the physical issues you mentioned are real. But it also seems like at times it just a matter of turning on the motor.

 

[gary2]

Don't disagree here with the exception that there aren't many grad transfer centers who be better than Brown will be next year. Nelson-Adoda and Maia weren't.

Drexel had a Turk. Ole Miss a Polish center. Clemson backup. Vandy starter. I would take any of those four over Brown. There are probably more.

I have not heard Pitt associated with any of those four.

 

[DT_PITT]

Drexel had a Turk. Ole Miss a Polish center. Clemson backup. Vandy starter. I would take any of those four over Brown. There are probably more.

I have not heard Pitt associated with any of those four.

Have all four guys officially announced they will be available as 5th year transfers?

 

[gary2]

Have all four guys officially announced they will be available as 5th year transfers?

They entered the transfer portal.

 

[gary2]

Have all four guys officially announced they will be available as 5th year transfers?

White from Clemson may have played his best game against us. He looked pretty good. Played at Oral Roberts before Clemson.

I think Stallings tried to get involved with Wetzell's first transfer to Vandy.
Played Div 2 before Vandy

The Drexel kid was a Jct. He was a stat machine at that level.

The Polish kid played at Drake before Ole Miss.

 

[DT_PITT]

They entered the transfer portal.

White from Clemson may have played his best game against us. He looked pretty good. Played at Oral Roberts before Clemson.

I think Stallings tried to get involved with Wetzell's first transfer to Vandy.
Played Div 2 before Vandy

The Drexel kid was a Jct. He was a stat machine at that level.

The Polish kid played at Drake before Ole Miss.

I can say for sure I would NOT want White over Brown. Your opinion of him is WAY skewed with what you saw against us -- maybe the only decent game he played last year.

 

[Drew1208]

I'll give him a tiny bit of meth before every game....
Problem solved.

 

[gary2]

I can say for sure I would NOT want White over Brown. Your opinion of him is WAY skewed with what you saw against us -- maybe the only decent game he played last year.

White averaged 10 ppg and 9 rpg at Oral Roberts. He did not get much play behind Thomas.

White is stronger and moves better than Brown.

 

[TreesHero]

I'll give him a tiny bit of meth before every game....
Problem solved.

I'm still a fan of the John Henderson method:
(I never get tired of this clip)

 

[Drew1208]

I'm still a fan of the John Henderson method:
(I never get tired of this clip)

View embedded media

No reason we couldn't use both methods.

 

[tbroman]

Don't disagree here with the exception that there aren't many grad transfer centers who be better than Brown will be next year. Nelson-Adoda and Maia weren't.

All this talk about Brown and no one out there that we could bring in at this point that would be better than Brown. We appearently have someone on the current roster that is better than Brown, at least in Capels eyes. Kene started as many games but more importantly was always in the game over Brown at the end. It appeard Capel had more confidence in Kene than Brown. That says all you need to know about Brown.

 

[Fsgolfdr]

If JC can find anyone with the necessary size , strength , quickness and the innate ability to rebound to play along side of TB Pitt will go as far as the guards and wings will take them . TB and Chewy (if available ) by themselves just aren’t good enough to overcome the rosters lack of size and experience. Whether TB can improve enough to make posters happy is questionable, but he has a natural instinct to be a shot blocker and for a big he has a nice stroke . Let’s hope for JC to add a grad transfer who can not only play , but push TB in practice and while we’re at let’s also hope for TB to work on his hands this off season . He’s not as bad as some think , but JC does need to find a way get more out of him for Pitt to be more successful .

 

[Jeffburgh]

The problem is multi-faceted. Brown's warts showed up a lot more last season than his first, because HCJC runs a completely different system, on both sides of the court than Stallings.

Brown was a fit in Stallings system which ideally would have two complimentary big men, and was not as aggressive on either end of the floor - played a soft man defense and basically passed the ball around until someone could jack up a three.

Despite the spin when he was hired, his teams played slow and passive.

So, Brown's feet were not exposed - though even then his passivity and off (far too often) and on motor was very evident.

But, IF Stallings was able to get a center to pair with him, he could be a PF who got a lot of weak side blocks, chipped in on the boards, got his face up shots, etc.

The problem is that HCJC uses a one in, four out on both sides of the court, and the center has to be someone who is both able to move his feet AND control the paint, particularly on defense.

That is why Kene was the starter the first month or so of the season, and as the season progressed HCJC kept going back to him. When Brown was engaged, or had a more favorable matchup like the Cuse, he would play because Kene has so little to offer.

But, when Brown was not engaged, at the very least Kene was able to move on defense, and occasionally convert a pick and roll.

Brown's warts were just a lot more glaring in a system, and with a coach, that requires players to be mobile, aggressive, play with fire, and extent on both sides of the court.

He is tall and long, and has the body, and SOME skill. But, his limitations with his hands and feet restrict his ceiling, and he has to find a way to connect with, or develop an inner warrior spirit if he is going to help this team win games regularly.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

The one assuring thing in the TB debate is that Capel knows more about him then we do and the decision is ultimately his.

If brown is useless, I kind of lean on this side, Capel will push him to his life’s work. If he can develop and be of some service to ya, I’m sure Capel will work with him.

We can argue all day and I’m sure we will but we have no say in it.