This "debate" is the Panther-lair's version of you need a madman to "outwit" a madman.
Example of when I say HC is all that matters (analysis)
- Thread starter Sean Miller Fan
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This "debate" is the Panther-lair's version of you need a madman to "outwit" a madman.
I called him unbelievable and don’t think that’s an undersell by any means. He’s likely going to be the national coach of the year and he did so with a team that looked like a fringe tournament team before the year. If he decides to ever leave Providence, he’s on a shortlist for any major opening on the East Coast.
I think that there is a very compelling argument which says hiring a very successful high major coach will not insure success. There are obviously exceptions. Kansas can hire Self and Kentucky can get Calipari. (Although it was my understanding that Calipari approached Kentucky about their opening.) If you look at ACC coaching history, the path to success follows a different course. Going back aways: Dean Smith was a UNC assistant when he was promoted. Lefty Driesell and Terry Holland both came from Davidson. Bobby Cremins was at Appalachian State, Krzyzewski came from Army, Valvano from Iona, Boeheim was an assistant to Danforth, Mike Brey was at Delaware. The most notable hires from major programs were Roy Williams, Gary Williams, and Norm Sloan. In the case of the Williamses, both were returning to their alma maters. Sloan was at Florida in a time when, aside from Kentucky, basketball head coaches in the SEC didn't have the same status as assistant football coaches. From beyond the ACC, Bobby Knight was at Army, Joe B Hall was an assistant at Kentucky, Tom Izzo was a Jud Heathcote assistant, and Heathcote was hired from Montana. Greg Gard was a Wisconsin assistant. Dick Bennett was from Green Bay. John Thompson was a high school guidance counselor and coach, Denny Crum was a UCLA assistant. Digger Phelps was from Fordham. Nolan Richardson was at Tulsa.
At this time, I don't think that the Pitt position has the same degree of prestige that either the Kentucky or Kansas coach enjoys. It is hard to imagine that any of the coaches SMF has mentioned want to undertake a "rebuild" when things are going smoothly at their present jobs. Finally, I am a bit skeptical that Pitt could outbid any of those schools by enough to change anyone's mind, although it is not beyond reason that one or two might entertain discussions in order to get a raise from the current employer. Outside of the bluebloods, I think there are precious few examples of successful P5/P6 coaches moving to another P5/P6 school and enjoying similar, or greater, success. Lute Olson is the only one that comes immediately to mind. Rick Barnes from Clemson to Texas would be a stretch. There are a few coaches who have gypsey-like resumes, but I can't imagine Pitt fans wanting the mediocre success they have experienced.
If nothing else, please name a single current successful P6 head coach who was hired away from another successful P6 position. Buzz Williams? Dana Altman? I'm not sure of others, and I don't remember them being hot properties when they changed schools.
At this time, I don't think that the Pitt position has the same degree of prestige that either the Kentucky or Kansas coach enjoys. It is hard to imagine that any of the coaches SMF has mentioned want to undertake a "rebuild" when things are going smoothly at their present jobs. Finally, I am a bit skeptical that Pitt could outbid any of those schools by enough to change anyone's mind, although it is not beyond reason that one or two might entertain discussions in order to get a raise from the current employer. Outside of the bluebloods, I think there are precious few examples of successful P5/P6 coaches moving to another P5/P6 school and enjoying similar, or greater, success. Lute Olson is the only one that comes immediately to mind. Rick Barnes from Clemson to Texas would be a stretch. There are a few coaches who have gypsey-like resumes, but I can't imagine Pitt fans wanting the mediocre success they have experienced.
If nothing else, please name a single current successful P6 head coach who was hired away from another successful P6 position. Buzz Williams? Dana Altman? I'm not sure of others, and I don't remember them being hot properties when they changed schools.
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In general I don’t disagree. Bob Huggins would be one example of a successful hire. John Beilein, while not currently employed, would be another example.
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Beilein is another good example. Huggins, on the other hand, was returning to his alma mater, as did Gary Williams and Roy Williams. I think that that is an extenuationg circumstance. Also, Huggins was out of coaching for a year after leaving Cincinnati, and was only at Kansas State for a year when he left for WVU. Regardless, I think the most noteworthy thing about these exceptions are their scarcity. Given the number of coaching changes every year, there are very few who move from one P6 program to another. Of course, when you visit the message boards of programs who are changing coaches, the fans' wish lists include little but P6 coaches. In that respect, Pitt fans like SMF are not alone.
Edit to add: You could also add Matt Doherty's move from Notre Dame to UNC to the list, but that would be another coach returning to his alma mater. Not that that is a very good example for this discussion, but it's there nonetheless.
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It happens quite a bit. I don't know what he's talking about. Cuonzo Ten to Cal to Mizzou. Amaker SHU to Michigan. Bennett WSU (3 seed with Klay) to UVa. Mack Xavier to Lou. Weber Ill to Kst. Dixon Pitt to TCU. Turgeon A&M to MD. Underwood OK St to Ill. Beard TT to Texas. I mean those are just off the top of my head. There's so many more. I feel like its so much more common for these lateral-type moves in basketball as compared to football. I think basketball coaches realize that they're "the show" and need to be pampered or else they're out. Football coaches, the history/tradition/geographic location/facilities play so big of a role. Its why in football, you basically see the same Top 25 every year give or take
Actually, not all of those you mention are truly lateral moves. For all intents and purposes, WSU is barely a P6 program, and Bennett's move to UVa really wasn't lateral. Beard to Texas is another example of an alumnus coming home. Mack from Xavier to Louisville, however ill-advised, was hardly a lateral move. Louisville hovers just under blueblood status. There's a world of difference in those two jobs. Weber and Martin have been gypsies,. Much like George Raveling and Tubby Smith. Underwood isn't a very good example, either. He was at OSU barely long enough for a cup of coffee. And, with the exception of the alumni hires, most of these lateral moves haven't been terribly successful. Maybe not as bad as Stallings to Pitt, but Amaker was fired by Michigan. Turgeon was dismissed in mid season by Maryland. Mack and Louisville have parted ways. I won't be surprised if Martin leaves Missouri in the near future. Miz is 11-20 (5-13) this year. If you want to cite a successful instance of a lateral move, perhaps Dana Altman should have been your primary choice. Finally, when compared with the successes of those I mentioned in my first response to this thread, the accomplishments of those you mention really do pale.
I hear what you're saying but P6 to P6 can be viewed as lateral. Not all P6s are the same so a coach may choose to go from lower P6 to higher P6 but usually when a coach is going from lower P6 to higher P6, they are doing extremely well at the lower P6 (like WSU) so a move to a struggling higher P6 team seems lateral
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