Horton and Malik Ellison

[Chescat]

Question.....what do these two have in common?
Answer........ Both were hyped by coaches and players as being
great additions based on their work in practice.

Ellison was a great athlete who transferred from St. John's.
He never lived up to the hype. He worked hard and transferred
to a lesser program.

Horton.....way to early to tell if he's worthy of the hype, but
after one game, questions are raised as to his value. I'm
hoping the St. Francis game was not a sign of what's to
come from him.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

When you get a transfer you should assume that what you are getting is pretty much the same as what they were before they transferred. For people to believe the Ellison hype they had to think he was going to magically be significantly better for Pitt than he was for St. John's. And there was no real reason to think that.

Similarly, people's expectations for Horton should be based on what he has already done in college. Which means that at this level he should be a decent player, but people expecting greatness or near greatness are almost certainly setting themselves up for disappointment.

The guys who transfer and become much better players at their new schools are the exceptions, not the rules.

 

[PittMan 72]

Question.....what do these two have in common?
Answer........ Both were hyped by coaches and players as being
great additions based on their work in practice.

Ellison was a great athlete who transferred from St. John's.
He never lived up to the hype. He worked hard and transferred
to a lesser program.

Horton.....way to early to tell if he's worthy of the hype, but
after one game, questions are raised as to his value. I'm
hoping the St. Francis game was not a sign of what's to
come from him.

Horton is probably a streak shooter. Lots of deep shooters are. The question will be how often he can get on a hot streak. If he clanks several in a row . . . . . . .

He’ll also need to be a least serviceable as a: defender; handler; passer; rebounder. In Horton’s case, ALL of the above is still TBD at Pitt.

Murphy was a streak shooter, too. The problem with Murphy was once the OOC schedule ended, he struggled to even get his shot off. That seemed to destroy his confidence.

It’s really going to be interesting to see if Horton can get his shots in context and without forcing them. Then to see I’d he can start draining them. Lots of times with a jump shooter seeing the ball go through the net early in a game definitely helps.

But Ellison and Horton certainly appear to be very different types of players to me.

 

[Drew1208]

Question.....what do these two have in common?
Answer........ Both were hyped by coaches and players as being
great additions based on their work in practice.

Ellison was a great athlete who transferred from St. John's.
He never lived up to the hype. He worked hard and transferred
to a lesser program.

Horton.....way to early to tell if he's worthy of the hype, but
after one game, questions are raised as to his value. I'm
hoping the St. Francis game was not a sign of what's to
come from him.

I expect Horton to be what he is. A good shooter. Who can develop other parts of his game over time. Nothing crazy. He cant play scared and I've been worried about his defense.

 

[Chescat]

For people to believe the Ellison hype they had to think he was going to magically be significantly better for Pitt than he was for St. John's. And there was no real reason to think that

Basically I agree with your explanation. The problem though....is the "people"
who believe the "hype" are getting their info from players and coaches who
are basing it on what they're supposedly seeing in practice.
Ellison was reported to be the best player at Pitt based on his work in
practice. Similar comments were made about Horton.

When it's players and COACHES making these statements it's understandable
that people believe what their hearing.
As for me....I rely on the eye test. I want to see them on the floor actually
playing in real time. Perfect example...Coulibaly. There were posters here
who thought he was going to be the answer inside. His post skills were going
to change our offense against zone defenses. All this with no one having
actually seen him play. Well, it's still early, and who knows he might achieve
that hype. I never say never, but so far it ain't there.

 

[pittizit]

here's the comparison..busts.

 

[Chescat]

But Ellison and Horton certainly appear to be very different types of players to me.

You're right, they are "very different types of players." However the point made
wasn't about their likeness or differences, it was about the hype being made
about them before they even played one minute in a Pitt uniform.
They were reported to be difference makers. Ellison proved he wasn't even
an ACC level player (transferred to Hartford where he did well). Horton, who
knows, maybe he'll be a difference maker, I hope he is. I realize it was only
one game, but it didn't look pretty. With that said...I'm more than willing
to give him time.

 

[PittPoker]

Question.....what do these two have in common?
Answer........ Both were hyped by coaches and players as being
great additions based on their work in practice.

Ellison was a great athlete who transferred from St. John's.
He never lived up to the hype. He worked hard and transferred
to a lesser program.

Horton.....way to early to tell if he's worthy of the hype, but
after one game, questions are raised as to his value. I'm
hoping the St. Francis game was not a sign of what's to
come from him.

Yeah Horton looked like crap but now I'll chalk it up to 1 game. Hopefully he looks much better moving forward.

 

[Pittisit4me]

You're right, they are "very different types of players." However the point made
wasn't about their likeness or differences, it was about the hype being made
about them before they even played one minute in a Pitt uniform.
They were reported to be difference makers. Ellison proved he wasn't even
an ACC level player (transferred to Hartford where he did well). Horton, who
knows, maybe he'll be a difference maker, I hope he is. I realize it was only
one game, but it didn't look pretty. With that said...I'm more than willing
to give him time.

I definitely agree. Lets give hive more than one game before we declare him a bust. I am more concerned about him on defense than I am about his scoring.

 

[mrhoopfan]

"Hype".........seems to be the name of the game these days across the board with new guys and high school, even middle school "elite" prospects......It's unfair to the kids. That's major d1 hoops and football tho, something or someone is always being sold. In regards to Horton, (1)it's awfully early in the season (2) Shooters need actions within the offense to help maximize their strengths (pin downs, floppy, baseline screens, 5 man DHO's, staggers, transition screen aways, flares, etc.) Like as much as people act like Coach K just gets major talent and rolls the balls out, he's excellent at putting his main scorers in great position to be successful. Duke ran some really good stuff for shooters like Scheyer, Redick and Seth Curry... As season progresses hopefully Pitt staff and players buy into more purposeful off ball movement. I'm excited for today's game!

 

[SienaCougars]

Just canned a 3.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

Just canned a 3.

Then turned it over. Put him in the hall! He’s a mid major player

 

[BargeDog]

Murphy was a streak shooter, too. The problem with Murphy was once the OOC schedule ended, he struggled to even get his shot off. That seemed to destroy his confidence.

The problem with Murphy is that he had a concussion and never recovered or got meaningful minutes thereafter.
He won the BC game. If memory serves, that was an ACC game.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

The problem with Murphy is that he had a concussion and never recovered or got meaningful minutes thereafter.
He won the BC game. If memory serves, that was an ACC game.

Don’t be surprised if MurphDawg is on Duquesne’s roster in 2 weeks.

 

[Drew1208]

Don’t be surprised if MurphDawg is on Duquesne’s roster in 2 weeks.

Lol why is that? That's pretty specific

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Horton looks like Sterling Smith so far.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

Lol why is that? That's pretty specific

Just what I was told

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

Horton looks like Sterling Smith so far.

Who could’ve ever guess that?

 

[FrogmoreZeke]

It's too early to tell what kind of shooter he will be but not too early to tell that he is a defensive liability.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

Too early to tell if any or all will be defensive liabilities. Too much early season immediacy bias. Very few P5 teams are playing at their potential yet. Even Duke demonstrated that today.

 

[NTOP]

"Hype".........seems to be the name of the game these days across the board with new guys and high school, even middle school "elite" prospects......It's unfair to the kids. That's major d1 hoops and football tho, something or someone is always being sold. In regards to Horton, (1)it's awfully early in the season (2) Shooters need actions within the offense to help maximize their strengths (pin downs, floppy, baseline screens, 5 man DHO's, staggers, transition screen aways, flares, etc.) Like as much as people act like Coach K just gets major talent and rolls the balls out, he's excellent at putting his main scorers in great position to be successful. Duke ran some really good stuff for shooters like Scheyer, Redick and Seth Curry... As season progresses hopefully Pitt staff and players buy into more purposeful off ball movement. I'm excited for today's game!

Scheyer and Reddick played at Davidson.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

"Hype".........seems to be the name of the game these days across the board with new guys and high school, even middle school "elite" prospects......It's unfair to the kids. That's major d1 hoops and football tho, something or someone is always being sold. In regards to Horton, (1)it's awfully early in the season (2) Shooters need actions within the offense to help maximize their strengths (pin downs, floppy, baseline screens, 5 man DHO's, staggers, transition screen aways, flares, etc.) Like as much as people act like Coach K just gets major talent and rolls the balls out, he's excellent at putting his main scorers in great position to be successful. Duke ran some really good stuff for shooters like Scheyer, Redick and Seth Curry... As season progresses hopefully Pitt staff and players buy into more purposeful off ball movement. I'm excited for today's game!

Capel wasn’t on staff for Scheyer or Reddick’s playing days.

 

[Jeffburgh]

Yeah, I still have PTSD from Trey Zeigler. I mean, I did not expect him to be an AA or anything, just be a really nice part of the rotation and the guy literally was a nothing.

I knew what Ellison was, his body of work at a D1 program was established. Actually knew the team was in pretty big trouble when the coaches were hyping him as the best player in practices.

There is enough video out there of Horton, he can shoot, but didn't see him do much beyond that offensively, did not seen the kind of quicks to be guy who will score a whole lot other than taking threes, and I am also someone who worries about his defense at this level.

I HOPE he can carve out a supporting role with a team that has an established, ball dominant PG and three talented wings in Champ, Toney and WJ as a guy who can provide outside shooting and a secondary ball handler.

We will see.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

Scheyer and Reddick played at Davidson.

Curry also played for Davidson. His dad played for Virginia Tech by the way.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

He said Seth Curry, who played at Duke, not Steph curry.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

Right you are! Misread the first name.

 

[NTOP]

He said Seth Curry, who played at Duke, not Steph curry.

Damn, thought I posted something funny!! Oh well, back to the drawing board.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Who could’ve ever guess that?

Was hoping for Mike Cook

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

Was hoping for Mike Cook

Cook was a better scorer in a much better league and actually had to learn how to play defense to get on the floor.

 

[Thee Jackie Treehorn]

Cook was a better scorer in a much better league and actually had to learn how to play defense to get on the floor.

During the current century have we had a more productive D-I transfer than Mike Cook? I can't think of one.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

During the current century have we had a more productive D-I transfer than Mike Cook? I can't think of one.

Man, I cried when he tore his ACL at the garden. Literal tears. What a great dude. I think that team could’ve made a run with the entire team.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Cook was a better scorer in a much better league and actually had to learn how to play defense to get on the floor.

I know. He put up good numbers in the old CUSA which included Lou, Cin, Mar, etc but still I remember some on here knocking him saying he put those numbers up on a bad team.

You do see mid-major transfers have immediate success at the P6 level. I don't think it was unreasonable to think Horton could have been one.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

I know. He put up good numbers in the old CUSA which included Lou, Cin, Mar, etc but still I remember some on here knocking him saying he put those numbers up on a bad team.

You do see mid-major transfers have immediate success at the P6 level. I don't think it was unreasonable to think Horton could have been one.

You rarely see traditional transfers move up and excel. They usually average *at best* half their average. 1/20 average what they averaged at their old school or more. They’re basically a lottery ticket. It’s why I never bought into the Horton hype and why I said he wouldn’t average more than 8 PPG.

 

[Chescat]

You rarely see traditional transfers move up and excel. They usually average *at best* half their average. 1/20 average what they averaged at their old school or more. They’re basically a lottery ticket. It’s why I never bought into the Horton hype and why I said he wouldn’t average more than 8 PPG.

I tend to agree. However, you do see it happen in the opposite
direction more frequently. Ellison and Stewart are perfect
examples of this.
As far as Horton is concerned, we'll see...it's still early. On the other
hand there is a Delaware transfer (Motts) doing very well at
Va Tech. He had 12 pts. and played 38 minutes in upset vs Nova.
Va Tech has three other transfers: Keve Aluma from Wofford.
Wofford???...yup, and he scored 23 against Nova in 39 minutes.
The other two tranfers are from Kansas St., one scored 5 pts.
and the other didn't score.
Now those are not necessarily the norm, but it does give a
look into some players going up a level and some down.

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

Don’t be surprised if MurphDawg is on Duquesne’s roster in 2 weeks.

Saw 2 tweets tonight that said this is all but a done deal.

If you didn’t believe before pretty evident Insider has some sources.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

Saw 2 tweets tonight that said this is all but a done deal.

If you didn’t believe before pretty evident Insider has some sources.

I couldn’t remember which thread I put that in so thanks for bumping for credibility. Lol

 

[pittchagg]

Not sure what to make of that - I have a few ideas, given Murphy’s subtweet after the St. Francis stinker.

 

[Ski11585]

Man, I cried when he tore his ACL at the garden. Literal tears. What a great dude. I think that team could’ve made a run with the entire team.

Fields was in great shape that year too. If they both stay healthy...

I will never ever regret a moment of that 2000-2010ish run, but god damn Pitt was *this close* so many times. If just one thing breaks different...