Its Happening? Money Division

[Pitt79]

It was a 4 way tie for 1st place. Boston College entered the final game at 9-2. Syracuse was 5-6. Syracuse pulled off the upset, at Boston College (where BC was undefeated up until that point), which allowed Pitt to be conference co-champs, and get the Fiesta Bowl bid by virtue of tiebreakers given that 4 teams were tied. We beat BC at home in OT, BC's only conference loss until the last game. BC choked and we benefitted from it.

I stand corrected, 2010 was the 3-way tie I was thinking of.

We beat BC, I remember 17-14 on an INT in OT, that was a good game. Then BC chocked and we benefited from it after beating them ON THE FIELD HEAD-TO-HEAD, so our Fiesta Bowl berth was FULLY DESERVED, based on beating them and all tie breakers in place, how is it not deserved? explain with objective facts and not subjective CFP committee style NONSENSE.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

A google search shows that Pitt has 575 student-athletes. A choice to opt-in will cost a minimum of $8.6 million based on 1/2 of those athletes getting only the minimum $30k trust fund. That assumes that Pitt would not add anything to the NIL available through the 412 Alliance and others. But we all know that just gets Pitt into the game with the big boys. It isn't even close to making Pitt competitive.

Some schools will outspend Pitt on NIL by multiple factors, e.g., ten times as much. Some schools will just raise the "base pay" - the education fund above the minimum $30k to try become dominant across other sports. Others will do both. Pitt will not be able to compete due to the lack of institutional support, TV money compared to the B1G and SEC, and lack of donor support.

First of all, Pitt doesn't have 575 scholarship athletes. That includes a whole host of walk-ons. If you have to include the walk-ons in the number, then take fewer walk-ons in the different sports and/or cut roster sizes in the Olympics sports or eliminate teams altogether. Lose some support staff, pay coaches less, go D3 budget for the Olympics sports, eliminate Panther Club and use those funds to pay players, surcharge regular students, get the University to chip in like they are doing for volleyball, etc. There's a million ways you can pay as much as Rutgers, Indiana, and Kentucky. That is who we are competing with, now and in the future. If you cant figure out a way to pay players as much as Rutgers, then a new AD can.

 

[Slick Manager of Champs]

We absolutely deserved it, 100%, that was getting in exactly how it should happen in a real sport, not fake garbage like a committee conferring with optometrists about an eye test, it was win your conference ON THE FIELD and YOU ARE IN=100% DESERVING.

yes, the 2004 Big East and the 2018 ACC Coastal championships were deserved. Were they gratifying? That's a different story. 2018 I consider somewhat disappointing given the 0-3 finish. No chance at Clemson, but should have at least won 2 of the 3 and finish 9-5 instead of 7-7. And 2004, a 4 way tie for 1st in a conference with only 7 teams and without Miami and VaTech doesn't really do a whole lot for me. Finishing the season 10-2 and undisputed 1st place would have been a great season.

 

[happjack]

I stand corrected, 2010 was the 3-way tie I was thinking of.

We beat BC, I remember 17-14 on an INT in OT, that was a good game. Then BC chocked and we benefited from it after beating them ON THE FIELD HEAD-TO-HEAD, so our Fiesta Bowl berth was FULLY DESERVED, based on beating them and all tie breakers in place, how is it not deserved? explain with objective facts and not subjective CFP committee style NONSENSE.

Was it Cook or Smizik who wrote that Pitt should have declined the Fiesta Bowl bid due to getting it via a tiebreaker?

 

[pittdan77]

For one thing, the proposal gives much more authority over other aspects like scholarship numbers, coach number, transfer rules, etc.

I think those are all things that schools can get done without pay. Nothing is really off the table at the moment but I don't think letting the horse way out of the barn serves much of a purpose. Just my opinion on that because I think there are a very limited number of schools that would really want or be able to afford this.

 

[NCPitt]

First of all, Pitt doesn't have 575 scholarship athletes. That includes a whole host of walk-ons. If you have to include the walk-ons in the number, then take fewer walk-ons in the different sports and/or cut roster sizes in the Olympics sports or eliminate teams altogether. Lose some support staff, pay coaches less, go D3 budget for the Olympics sports, eliminate Panther Club and use those funds to pay players, surcharge regular students, get the University to chip in like they are doing for volleyball, etc. There's a million ways you can pay as much as Rutgers, Indiana, and Kentucky. That is who we are competing with, now and in the future. If you cant figure out a way to pay players as much as Rutgers, then a new AD can.

How many do they have, genius? OSU has 1,000 by comparison.

The school shouldn't have to cut other sports to please your erotic dreams.

 

[Pitt79]

Was it Cook or Smizik who wrote that Pitt should have declined the Fiesta Bowl bid due to getting it via a tiebreaker?

Why, they deserved to go. declining after getting in on the predetermined criteria is stupid college football nonsense. So, if a team with a losing record that wins their conference basketball tournament should they decline their DESERVED spot in March Madness?

 

[Pitt79]

yes, the 2004 Big East and the 2018 ACC Coastal championships were deserved. Were they gratifying? That's a different story. 2018 I consider somewhat disappointing given the 0-3 finish. No chance at Clemson, but should have at least won 2 of the 3 and finish 9-5 instead of 7-7. And 2004, a 4 way tie for 1st in a conference with only 7 teams and without Miami and VaTech doesn't really do a whole lot for me. Finishing the season 10-2 and undisputed 1st place would have been a great season.

I thought 2004 was very satisfying, from the ND game on, they made a good run, that F'ing deserved it.

 

[Dan1911]

I've got news for you: The Money Division in football arrived about 70 years ago. This is nothing new.

 

[MorningCoffee13]

A google search shows that Pitt has 575 student-athletes. A choice to opt-in will cost a minimum of $8.6 million based on 1/2 of those athletes getting only the minimum $30k trust fund. That assumes that Pitt would not add anything to the NIL available through the 412 Alliance and others. But we all know that just gets Pitt into the game with the big boys. It isn't even close to making Pitt competitive.

Some schools will outspend Pitt on NIL by multiple factors, e.g., ten times as much. Some schools will just raise the "base pay" - the education fund above the minimum $30k to try become dominant across other sports. Others will do both. Pitt will not be able to compete due to the lack of institutional support, TV money compared to the B1G and SEC, and lack of donor support.

There won’t be 575 student athlete's. Programs will be cut and so the cost would likely be towards the $5 million a year.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

How many do they have, genius? OSU has 1,000 by comparison.

The school shouldn't have to cut other sports to please your erotic dreams.

Pitt has to do everything in its power to make sure its pro football and pro basketball teams can compete. That may mean cutting costs. It may mean cutting sports. Those sports exist because they are funded by football and basketball. If expenses for those businesses go up, what do you think has to happen with other business lines?

These are the number of scholarships Pitt does or can give out:

Men
Football 85
Basketball 15
Baseball 11.7
Soccer 9.9
Wrestling 9.9
Track and Field/Cross Country 12.6
Swimming/Diving 9.9

Women
Basketball 15
Soccer 14
Volleyball 12
Softball 12
Lacrosse 12
Swimming/Diving 14
Gymnastics 12
Track/Cross County 18

That's 263 scholarships. The additional 312 athletes you counted are walk-ons or are on partial scholarships for the non-head count sports. We dont know if they will take the scholarship total, the full total, or some combination. Either way, we arent going to be paying half of 575 like you say. We will reduce roster sizes in the olympic sports or eliminate teams if we have to. Why do we need a Track team? We dont even have a track. What is the budget for those programs? $2 million? Boom, there you go. Straight to Football salaries. Pitt either wants to have pro football and basketball or it doesn't.

 

[Pitt79]

The NFL would get killed on Saturdays. You guys don't realize how popular college football is. Its the #2 sport in this country

Is it popular because people watch their alma mater or local school or because they are flocking to watch the blue bloods, they aren't affiliated with play each other?

And how do they count it? Sometimes I watch 3 plays of one game, then 6 of another and then turn off the TV, am I counted as a viewer of those games somehow?

 

[Pitt79]

yes, the 2004 Big East and the 2018 ACC Coastal championships were deserved. Were they gratifying? That's a different story. 2018 I consider somewhat disappointing given the 0-3 finish. No chance at Clemson, but should have at least won 2 of the 3 and finish 9-5 instead of 7-7. And 2004, a 4 way tie for 1st in a conference with only 7 teams and without Miami and VaTech doesn't really do a whole lot for me. Finishing the season 10-2 and undisputed 1st place would have been a great season.

When did people start caring if their team deserved to make a playoff or bowl game? Used to be people where just happy that they made it and didn't care about deserving it or not?

 

[pafootballguy]

The $30K for half the athletes will be small potatoes compared to the NIL deals schools will be signing football and men's basketball players to.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

The $30K for half the athletes will be small potatoes compared to the NIL deals schools will be signing football and men's basketball players to.

Right. But this allows the collectives to be brought in-house, possibly even to be combined with the Panther Club. So Pitt, with its own revenue and/or handouts from the general fund + alumni donations/season ticket donation requirements can easily get to around $100K per player. Now will Rutgers and Indiana outdo us and do $200K per player? And if we match, will they go to $300K per player? And if we match do they go to $400K per player? The money isnt endless and this is still very stupid. There will likely be some type of salary cap and even if not, Pitt should still be able to hang out in the same neighborhood it currently does.

 

[pafootballguy]

Right. But this allows the collectives to be brought in-house, possibly even to be combined with the Panther Club. So Pitt, with its own revenue and/or handouts from the general fund + alumni donations/season ticket donation requirements can easily get to around $100K per player. Now will Rutgers and Indiana outdo us and do $200K per player? And if we match, will they go to $300K per player? And if we match do they go to $400K per player? The money isnt endless and this is still very stupid. There will likely be some type of salary cap and even if not, Pitt should still be able to hang out in the same neighborhood it currently does.

Any salary cap will not happen without collective bargaining.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Any salary cap will not happen without collective bargaining.

This is one final stop before that and before they become employees. This is a last-gasp effort from the NCAA for this fake NIL pay for play stuff. It wont last and they will be employees soon.

 

[Pitt79]

Right. But this allows the collectives to be brought in-house, possibly even to be combined with the Panther Club. So Pitt, with its own revenue and/or handouts from the general fund + alumni donations/season ticket donation requirements can easily get to around $100K per player. Now will Rutgers and Indiana outdo us and do $200K per player? And if we match, will they go to $300K per player? And if we match do they go to $400K per player? The money isnt endless and this is still very stupid. There will likely be some type of salary cap and even if not, Pitt should still be able to hang out in the same neighborhood it currently does.

So some kid, who's never even good enough to see the field will get $400k per year because he was good in high school and got a football scholarship and this is where we want universities to spend their money?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

So some kid, who's never even good enough to see the field will get $400k per year because he was good in high school and got a football scholarship and this is where we want universities to spend their money?

Yea, why not? There's a market for it. Why do we need coaches making $10 million/year? Pay a D3 coach $300K and pay the players. The only reason college coaches make as much money as they do is because there isnt a player salary expense. Now there is.

 

[Pitt79]

Yea, why not? There's a market for it. Why do we need coaches making $10 million/year? Pay a D3 coach $300K and pay the players. The only reason college coaches make as much money as they do is because there isnt a player salary expense. Now there is.

Or pay the coach $100k and go D3.

 

[jtownknowitall]

Or pay the coach $100k and go D3.

If you go D3 you can probably cut that salary in half

 

[NCPitt]

Pitt has to do everything in its power to make sure its pro football and pro basketball teams can compete. That may mean cutting costs. It may mean cutting sports. Those sports exist because they are funded by football and basketball. If expenses for those businesses go up, what do you think has to happen with other business lines?

These are the number of scholarships Pitt does or can give out:

Men
Football 85
Basketball 15
Baseball 11.7
Soccer 9.9
Wrestling 9.9
Track and Field/Cross Country 12.6
Swimming/Diving 9.9

Women
Basketball 15
Soccer 14
Volleyball 12
Softball 12
Lacrosse 12
Swimming/Diving 14
Gymnastics 12
Track/Cross County 18

That's 263 scholarships. The additional 312 athletes you counted are walk-ons or are on partial scholarships for the non-head count sports. We dont know if they will take the scholarship total, the full total, or some combination. Either way, we arent going to be paying half of 575 like you say. We will reduce roster sizes in the olympic sports or eliminate teams if we have to. Why do we need a Track team? We dont even have a track. What is the budget for those programs? $2 million? Boom, there you go. Straight to Football salaries. Pitt either wants to have pro football and basketball or it doesn't.

In all sports except FB and BB, scholarships can be split between students. The number of scholarships is far less than the number of students on scholarship. Almost all women's sports would be required just to match mens' BB and FB numbers. Are they going to cut mens' soccer after their success? What if the conference requires Olympic sports?

 

[forbesfield]

Right. But this allows the collectives to be brought in-house, possibly even to be combined with the Panther Club. So Pitt, with its own revenue and/or handouts from the general fund + alumni donations/season ticket donation requirements can easily get to around $100K per player. Now will Rutgers and Indiana outdo us and do $200K per player? And if we match, will they go to $300K per player? And if we match do they go to $400K per player? The money isnt endless and this is still very stupid. There will likely be some type of salary cap and even if not, Pitt should still be able to hang out in the same neighborhood it currently does.

Again, what makes you think that the big-money collectives want to be under the auspices of the school, and therefore subject to NCAA observation? That is never going to happen as long as outside money is allowed to flow. Your inability to realize that is confounding. There are some collectives out there raising many multiple millions, and they don't want to become part of the athletic department.

 

[NCPitt]

Right. But this allows the collectives to be brought in-house, possibly even to be combined with the Panther Club. So Pitt, with its own revenue and/or handouts from the general fund + alumni donations/season ticket donation requirements can easily get to around $100K per player. Now will Rutgers and Indiana outdo us and do $200K per player? And if we match, will they go to $300K per player? And if we match do they go to $400K per player? The money isnt endless and this is still very stupid. There will likely be some type of salary cap and even if not, Pitt should still be able to hang out in the same neighborhood it currently does.

At 100k per player + the 30k education fund, you're talking $15-$20 million per year. That's a lot to ask from the general fund of a school that places education first.

 

[Pitt79]

If you go D3 you can probably cut that salary in half

Even better!

 

[Pitt79]

Again, what makes you think that the big-money collectives want to be under the auspices of the school, and therefore subject to NCAA observation? That is never going to happen as long as outside money is allowed to flow. Your inability to realize that is confounding. There are some collectives out there raising many multiple millions, and they don't want to become part of the athletic department.

And these collectives? who audits them? Do the people that run them skim off the top for themselves?

 

[forbesfield]

And these collectives? who audits them? Do the people that run them skim off the top for themselves?

I have no idea, but I assume they prefer less oversight, not more.

 

[Pitt79]

I have no idea, but I assume they prefer less oversight, not more.

People give money to that without asking what % they take for administrative costs?

 

[NCPitt]

Again, what makes you think that the big-money collectives want to be under the auspices of the school, and therefore subject to NCAA observation? That is never going to happen as long as outside money is allowed to flow. Your inability to realize that is confounding. There are some collectives out there raising many multiple millions, and they don't want to become part of the athletic department.

Title IX legalities might force it to happen.

 

[forbesfield]

People give money to that without asking what % they take for administrative costs?

I'm sure that this was a rhetorical question, right?

And I'm not talking about skimming. These organizations also wield access, at least in SEC land.

 

[happjack]

And these collectives? who audits them? Do the people that run them skim off the top for themselves?

Most likely, I bet there's "administrators" engraining themselves into the system like the bowl execs have.

 

[happjack]

Right. But this allows the collectives to be brought in-house, possibly even to be combined with the Panther Club. So Pitt, with its own revenue and/or handouts from the general fund + alumni donations/season ticket donation requirements can easily get to around $100K per player. Now will Rutgers and Indiana outdo us and do $200K per player? And if we match, will they go to $300K per player? And if we match do they go to $400K per player? The money isnt endless and this is still very stupid. There will likely be some type of salary cap and even if not, Pitt should still be able to hang out in the same neighborhood it currently does.

Neither Indiana or Rutgers is going to spend that much on football players, they're going to be the Nuttings of the B1G. But, Indiana will open the check book for a few basketball players.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

It would be interesting to see the NFL challenge that in the future. That restriction is based on their anti-trust exemption. They were granted the exemption as they had no other player in the market. If the NCAA goes forward with the money division, or the B1g and SEC break off to play what is already professional football, then there is competition in the market of pro American football. The college football divisions are going to compete with themselves for television viewership between their pro and semi-pro divisions. The major networks are heavily involved with NFL, but ESPN holds much marketshare in CFB now. The major networks will 100% want to play NFL on Saturday, as currently there are a bunch of NFL games all on at the same time as other NFL games.
I think that CFB becoming established as a professional sport will end up with this change occurring.

It is way, way more likely that the NFL will lose its antitrust exemption than it is that they will get the deal that they got 60 years ago improved on.

If/when they ever get told that it's OK to play on Saturday they are also going to get told that they are no longer allowed to combine the team's television rights and sell them all together. And they want nothing to do with that, so they aren't going to challenge their anti-trust exemption unless a lot of people get really, really stupid.

 

[pafootballguy]

Neither Indiana or Rutgers is going to spend that much on football players, they're going to be the Nuttings of the B1G. But, Indiana will open the check book for a few basketball players.

Rutgers must be spending some serious money on basketball right now

 

[USN_Panther]

It is way, way more likely that the NFL will lose its antitrust exemption than it is that they will get the deal that they got 60 years ago improved on.

If/when they ever get told that it's OK to play on Saturday they are also going to get told that they are no longer allowed to combine the team's television rights and sell them all together. And they want nothing to do with that, so they aren't going to challenge their anti-trust exemption unless a lot of people get really, really stupid.

Why wouldn't they be able to bundle the broadcast rights? CFB conferences are doing that. You seem to know something about this and I am interested to learn. I just mostly make stuff up on here.

 

[Las Panteras]

People give money to that without asking what % they take for administrative costs?

Kind of related....

But who is to say that these kids won't soon hire representation? Agents.....working for their client to get the best deal.

Sure...these kids arent allowed to sign with agents this evening.

Watch how fast those vultures swoop in when this comes down.

Any lawyers here.....no offense.....

 

[pafootballguy]

Kind of related....

But who is to say that these kids won't soon hire representation? Agents.....working for their client to get the best deal.

Sure...these kids arent allowed to sign with agents this evening.

Watch how fast those vultures swoop in when this comes down.

Any lawyers here.....no offense.....

They are already allowed to sign with agents

 

[Las Panteras]

They are already allowed to sign with agents

High school kids can sign an agent for NIL representation. They can not sign an agent to rep them with the school directly. That regulation would likely be blown up.

Im referring to an agent to find the kid the best $$ offer from interested schools.....which is the topic of this thread

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Why wouldn't they be able to bundle the broadcast rights? CFB conferences are doing that. You seem to know something about this and I am interested to learn. I just mostly make stuff up on here.

Because the government looks at the NFL as not one league of 32 teams, but rather 32 teams that happen to play in the same league. Without an anti-trust exemption the NFL would not be allowed to bundle their television rights, each team would have to sell them separately. And they don't want to do that.

As to college football, the courts have decided that conferences selling the rights is OK, because there are lots of conferences that compete with each other. But the NCAA is absolutely not allowed to sell the television rights for all the football schools, or all the basketball schools, or for anyone really. The schools (specifically Oklahoma and Georgia) sued the NCAA back in the 80s in an effort to get their television rights back, and they won the case.

In the eyes of the court, the NCAA and the NFL are kind of equals. The college conferences are the same the individual teams, because conference membership is voluntary and there are lots of them. The difference is that the NFL has a limited anti-trust exemption and the NCAA does not. Which is also part of the reason that the NCAA generally gets hammered when someone sues them.

 

[ThePanthers]

Because the government looks at the NFL as not one league of 32 teams, but rather 32 teams that happen to play in the same league. Without an anti-trust exemption the NFL would not be allowed to bundle their television rights, each team would have to sell them separately. And they don't want to do that.

As to college football, the courts have decided that conferences selling the rights is OK, because there are lots of conferences that compete with each other. But the NCAA is absolutely not allowed to sell the television rights for all the football schools, or all the basketball schools, or for anyone really. The schools (specifically Oklahoma and Georgia) sued the NCAA back in the 80s in an effort to get their television rights back, and they won the case.

In the eyes of the court, the NCAA and the NFL are kind of equals. The college conferences are the same the individual teams, because conference membership is voluntary and there are lots of them. The difference is that the NFL has a limited anti-trust exemption and the NCAA does not. Which is also part of the reason that the NCAA generally gets hammered when someone sues them.

Jim Delaney recently said in an interview he was worried about the big 10 getting too big when he was commissioner because it could open up antitrust lawsuits. But no one knows what that line is