Legislation on PIAA

[superstein61a]

You’re struggling.

We have all seen lesser athletic teams beat more athletic teams. That phenomenon is not limited to private schools versus “the blacks.” We also see that at all levels of sports, not just in high school competition.

Sometimes it’s because the kids are better coached and/or more dedicated. Sometimes it’s because they have a really good day while the other team - though perhaps better coached and more dedicated - just has a really bad day. Sometimes it’s a result of biased and/or incompetent officiating. Upsets can happen for a lot of reasons.

We have also all seen many instances where kids whose families don’t have two nickels to rub together can suddenly and magically afford to attend an expensive private school.

Coincidentally, they are almost always kids who also happen to be superb athletes. I have a few relatives to whom that has applied.

We have also all seen instances where a public school has a really promising young player one year and the next year he is starting for the local private school. We’ve seen a lot over the years where I grew up.

All of this is to say that high school athletics would be better if the WPIAL and PIAA stayed out of the eligibility business but created divisions whereby everyone competing therein was playing by the exact same set of rules and standards. Why is that so difficult for you to accept?

Going back to your original post, I don’t understand why you are fine with Lincoln Park being able to have a recruiting advantage against say Central Valley but not against Shadyside Academy? That’s what I don’t accept because it’s an entitled BS point of view.

Why are you against fair, even competition? That’s what I can’t understand.

I am not talking about rare upsets. I am talking about results that happen often. You yourself were moaning that private / catholic schools win more championships than public schools. A big part of it is you have teams with better work ethics and coachability and coaches - especially at the 1A and 2A level where most of the private / Catholic schools fit. It is not hard to understand and accept that. At a 6A school, it is different because for example, North Allegheny has huge numbers of kids to choose from - so it is easier to get kids who work hard and are coachable because they have tons of others who can replace them if they don't. That is not the same at 1A and 2A where you have a much smaller number of kids

And sure, if you look anywhere, you can find some exceptions. I am sure you can find some talented athletic kids who ended up at a private / catholic school - just like you can find some talented athletic kids who transferred to another public school. Hell, most of the WPIAL recruiting cases involve public to public transfers. So you are the one struggling.

But since you say you have seen many instances where kids whose families don’t have two nickels to rub together can suddenly and magically afford to attend an expensive private school - ok, name names. because otherwise your post is just BS.

Tell me the names of the kids who were recruited and had their tuition paid at the expensive private schools (in Pittsburgh they are Shadyside Academy, Sewickley Academy, Winchester Thurston and Ellis) and in what sport. I will be waiting

And you are the one against fair competition because you want no rules and restrictions on any transfer.

The best solution is simple. I stated it before - Simply enforce the existing rules (which include the changes made last summer and which really now are just in all practicality going into effect ) equally and fairly across the board across the state and the problem is solved

 

[superstein61a]

Ok just stop I have a best friend on a staff of one of the prominent western pa catholic school. And he has admitted to me that recruiting happens he has explained how it happens and he knows members of the other schools staff and said it absolutely happens there. So please stop.

I never said some schools don't cheat. What don't you understand. A handful of schools, whether they be public, private, catholic, charter break the rules each year and cheat by recruiting. Because the rules are not enforced fairly and equitably across the board. That is why there were rule changes recently made. Start enforcing the rules and the problem is solved

As to your friend's school, give me names and examples and I will be happy to solve that situation easily so they don't cheat anymore. All it takes is for schools to be turned in, penalized and those cheaters will eventually stop. But people like you turn a blind eye and support cheating

So please stop unless you are ready to do something real about it

 

[DiehardPanther]

That is utter bullshit. You clearly have no idea about admission standards nor the education field and are just spouting off some off the wall ridiculous theory yet again.

Private schools turn away lots of kids each and every year because they do not have the academic chops to succeed. Doesn't matter how much money one has.

And I did not say EVERY private school coach is better then EVERY public school coach. There are some very good coaches at various public schools. But in general, the level of coaching is better at privates vs publics. You don't have the glorified gym teacher syndrome at the private schools you find at some public schools

The best coaching staffs are usually found at the best public schools in the WPIAL. I’m not as familiar with the rest of the state, but that is how it works here.

 

[superstein61a]

The best coaching staffs are usually found at the best public schools in the WPIAL. I’m not as familiar with the rest of the state, but that is how it works here.

Please define best public schools in the WPIAL. If you are talking about the big affluent ones, I won't disagree. Upper St Clair, Mt Lebo, Peters, Fox Chapel, North Allegheny, Pine Richland, Seneca Valley, etc. Big affluent public schools typically have very good coaching staffs.

What I am referring to in my coaches comparison is the vast majority of private / Catholic schools are low enrollment Class 1A and 2A schools. So you need to compare them to their 1A and 2A public counterparts.

Central Catholic is the only large Catholic school - 6A.
North Catholic is 3A in football
Shadyside is the largest private - 2A in football.
Those are the exceptions.

Every other Private/Catholic school is mainly in 1A or 2A (a few maybe 3A in Hoops).

That is the basis for comparison of coaching talent. It is those 1A and 2A private / Catholic schools that have in general far better coaches than the same size public counterparts

 

[DiehardPanther]

Please define best public schools in the WPIAL. If you are talking about the big affluent ones, I won't disagree. Upper St Clair, Mt Lebo, Peters, Fox Chapel, North Allegheny, Pine Richland, Seneca Valley, etc. Big affluent public schools typically have very good coaching staffs.

What I am referring to in my coaches comparison is the vast majority of private / Catholic schools are low enrollment Class 1A and 2A schools. So you need to compare them to their 1A and 2A public counterparts.

Central Catholic is the only large Catholic school. Shadyside is the largest private. Those two are the exceptions. Every other Private/Catholic school is mainly in 1A or 2A (a few maybe 3A in Hoops).

That is the basis for comparison of coaching talent. It is those 1A and 2A private / Catholic schools that have in general far better coaches than the same size public counterparts

They do not have to necessarily be large in size. For example) Quaker Valley and Beaver

 

[superstein61a]

They do not have to necessarily be large in size. For example) Quaker Valley and Beaver

Sure - but:

1. Those are not 1A and 2A schools
2. I never said 100% of the coaches at private / Catholic schools are better than their counterparts at the same sized school. I said in general, private / Catholic schools have better coaching compared to their competition

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Who are the best 1A, 2A coaches in PA?

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I have seen schools like Jeannette and Clairton - who have better athletes get beaten time and time again in hoops by a bunch of mainly white athletes from private and Catholic schools who couldn't run as fast, jump as high, etc . The difference was those kids from private / catholic schools were more coachable, worked harder and had better coaching than the kids from Jeannette and Clairton who in essence were playing street ball on the court

The thing that you seem to not understand is that, for instance, when Greensburg Central beats Jeanette in sports, which they do relatively often, one of the main reasons for that is that Greensburg Central recruits. All the time, in all sports, for, quite literally, decades now.

It's a lot easier for your school to have "coachable" athletes on the team when you get to pick and chose who goes to your school rather than your school is filled with kids from the local neighborhood.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

You can't refute facts or debate an argument so you make silly comments.

It's funny that someone who is so divorced from reality can call someone else's comments silly.

 

[Jeffburgh]

It wouldn't require any loss of schools; only bureaucrats running them.

I don't think anyone was considering consolidation to eliminate specific schools, at least not me. I was only offering the idea of county wide management of schools, instead of each little town having to foot the bill for it.

Its basically the same thing.
Whether you keep every building open or not, its the loss of identity.
As someone who operates in the political sphere, people are REALLY reactive, and cling to these types of things.
Really wouldnt be an issue for the kids, it would be their parents and grandparents wretching over the thought of losing home coming, having to merge with their bitter rival.
Also, if the thought is to level funding, equally no go, and would not really address the issue all that well.
I can tell you in our County we have five districts, one is highly affluent three have decent, but modest tax bases, one more limited.
People who want the education the highly affluent school provides (and which has the biggest population) are not going to accept living in that district and having their $$$ support the other local schools.
Further while the focus is always on Philadelphia, an equally or bigger issue with underfunded schools are the rural schools throughout Pennsylvania. It wouldn't matter if it was countywide or not there's no tax base at all in Elk County, Etc.

 

[RaleighPittFan]

Its basically the same thing.
Whether you keep every building open or not, its the loss of identity.
As someone who operates in the political sphere, people are REALLY reactive, and cling to these types of things.
Really wouldnt be an issue for the kids, it would be their parents and grandparents wretching over the thought of losing home coming, having to merge with their bitter rival.
Also, if the thought is to level funding, equally no go, and would not really address the issue all that well.
I can tell you in our County we have five districts, one is highly affluent three have decent, but modest tax bases, one more limited.
People who want the education the highly affluent school provides (and which has the biggest population) are not going to accept living in that district and having their $$$ support the other local schools.
Further while the focus is always on Philadelphia, an equally or bigger issue with underfunded schools are the rural schools throughout Pennsylvania. It wouldn't matter if it was countywide or not there's no tax base at all in Elk County, Etc.

I live in a state where schools are governed by county, and there are still rivals, and homecomings, so parents and grandparents wouldn't need to lose sleep over any merging. That's not what it's about.

But, you're most likely correct that the taxpayers in PA aren't going to accept any change.

Government by definition is not about efficiency, so if it's not forced by the taxpayer there is no incentive to the bureaucrats to lose their jobs.

 

[pittdan77]

People who want the education the highly affluent school provides (and which has the biggest population) are not going to accept living in that district and having their $$$ support the other local schools.

Boils down to selfishness and elitism. That's all.

 

[Jeffburgh]

I live in a state where schools are governed by county, and there are still rivals, and homecomings, so parents and grandparents wouldn't need to lose sleep over any merging. That's not what it's about.

But, you're most likely correct that the taxpayers in PA aren't going to accept any change.

Government by definition is not about efficiency, so if it's not forced by the taxpayer there is no incentive to the bureaucrats to lose their jobs.

That is the way it is where you live already. People in mass are not particularly rational, and tend not to see things clearly. By and large, people would see it as consolidation and lose their minds.

 

[Harve74]

The bill as written is flawed, but over the last 10-20 years, a significant portion of the schools in the state finals, particularly in basketball, have been from non-geographical boundry schools. I will say up front that I believe athletes and their parents should always be allowed the opportunity to maximize their personal advancement. Few transfer restrictions should apply.

Going to 6 classifications was a foolish decision. I don't know if it was designed as a "feel-good" move to let more kids play in a play-off , i.e, a dressed up participation trophy for more student athletes, or if it was a naked money grab by the PIAA so they could charge higher prices for more play-off games.

Obviously, setting up the same number of 6 championship divisions for 40 or 50 non-public schools as 400 public schools is absurd.

But, just as absurd is forcing schools who recruit compete against those who don't.

Historically, lots of different types of schools have "cheated" by recruiting in various ways. Name a "dynasty" program locally, and they almost certainly recruited.

Perhaps a more equitable way to seed the competitions would be to have "Open" divisions, which would accept transfers with few or no restrictions. We should then also have "Restricted" divisions, where only geographically qualified student athletes may compete.

Those two categories could then be further divided by mathmatically splitting into as many classifications as desired to prevent mismatches.

Mike White is not an unbiased observer. His history has ALWAYS been to endorse restrictions against free movement of student athletes. Mr. Bernstein may be a fool, but his heart is in the right place. The WPIAL has no reason trying to restrict kids. They've been anal on the subject for the 50 years I've watched high school sports. That's one reason the PIAA has so often over-ruled the WPIAL.

Allow onlyOne transfer per year, and ONLY before the season, except in VERY special circumstances. But, nobody complains if a parent moves his kid to a high school with better academics. Why is athletic intent any different?

The artificial divisions created years ago in setting up school boundries should be removed. My high school merged with our arch-enemies about 20 years ago.Nobody cares now.

Let the kids play and get the adults out of it.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Going to 6 classifications was a foolish decision. I don't know if it was designed as a "feel-good" move to let more kids play in a play-off , i.e, a dressed up participation trophy for more student athletes, or if it was a naked money grab by the PIAA so they could charge higher prices for more play-off games.

The reason is that everyone thought it was unfair that (using the current numbers) a school with approximately 470 boys, Plum and Woodland Hills have 461 so use them as your comparison, was in the same class in football and basketball as Reading, who has around 725 MORE students than North Allegheny. In other words, the equivalent of North Allegheny PLUS South Fayette PLUS Montour, all in one district.

Reading has almost four times as many students as Plum, and they might be in the same class if they didn't make any change. North Allegheny has more than twice as many students, and they might be in the same class. Six classes may not have been the correct solution, but they had to do something or there would have been a permanent class of schools that had little chance to compete beyond a once in a lifetime situation.

 

[Harve74]

The reason is that everyone thought it was unfair that (using the current numbers) a school with approximately 470 boys, Plum and Woodland Hills have 461 so use them as your comparison, was in the same class in football and basketball as Reading, who has around 725 MORE students than North Allegheny. In other words, the equivalent of North Allegheny PLUS South Fayette PLUS Montour, all in one district.

Reading has almost four times as many students as Plum, and they might be in the same class if they didn't make any change. North Allegheny has more than twice as many students, and they might be in the same class. Six classes may not have been the correct solution, but they had to do something or there would have been a permanent class of schools that had little chance to compete beyond a once in a lifetime situation.

I understand the inequity of playing against a school with twice or 3 times as many potential athletes.

But, it is not a "once in a lifetime" situation

Farrell played .in the highest classification for years, and won a ton of hoops titles.

Aliquippa won titles playing two or 3 classes "up" -in football and basketball. My own high school made the basketball state title game playing up a class twice in about 10 years.

Because of the limited number of school in some districts, either teams play games against schools with two or 3 times the enrollment, or they ride a bus hours each way.

It's a freaking extracurricular activity. It's not life and death. If the PIAA wants everyone to be equal, tear up the enrollment maps ahd gerrymander the district lines until every school has the same number of stridents.

The point everyone misses is if athletic achievement is SO affected by school population numbers and athletic budgets, how much is academic achievement and performance skewed?

A football or basketball season last only a few weeks or months. Academics are forever. The people who run higher education are worried about the wrong measurement criteria and performance assessments.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I understand the inequity of playing against a school with twice or 3 times as many potential athletes.

But, it is not a "once in a lifetime" situation

Farrell played .in the highest classification for years, and won a ton of hoops titles.

Aliquippa won titles playing two or 3 classes "up" -in football and basketball. My own high school made the basketball state title game playing up a class twice in about 10 years.

Because of the limited number of school in some districts, either teams play games against schools with two or 3 times the enrollment, or they ride a bus hours each way.

It's a freaking extracurricular activity. It's not life and death. If the PIAA wants everyone to be equal, tear up the enrollment maps ahd gerrymander the district lines until every school has the same number of stridents.

The point everyone misses is if athletic achievement is SO affected by school population numbers and athletic budgets, how much is academic achievement and performance skewed?

A football or basketball season last only a few weeks or months. Academics are forever. The people who run higher education are worried about the wrong measurement criteria and performance assessments.

The reason that people miss the point about school size affecting academic achievement as much as athletic achievement is that there is no reason at all to think the two are correlated. There are smaller schools that do a great job educating kids. There are big schools that I wouldn't have sent my kids to for all the proverbial tea in China.

A school could be well positioned to educate a small number of students. If you only have four good athletes at your school you might be able to make a decent basketball team, but your football team isn't going to be able to compete.

 

[Mikefln]

Allow onlyOne transfer per year, and ONLY before the season, except in VERY special circumstances. But, nobody complains if a parent moves his kid to a high school with better academics. Why is athletic intent any different?

This is my stance. People are making this way more complicated then need be.

 

[pittdan77]

Perhaps a more equitable way to seed the competitions would be to have "Open" divisions, which would accept transfers with few or no restrictions. We should then also have "Restricted" divisions, where only geographically qualified student athletes may compete.

I always thought that it would make more sense to just put non-boundary schools into the top division. It's 6-A now. That solves everyone's problems with fairness and kids who want to attend that school who aren't athletes don't get shut out to maintain the numbers to stay in a small school division.

 

[Mikefln]

I always thought that it would make more sense to just put non-boundary schools into the top division. It's 6-A now. That solves everyone's problems with fairness and kids who want to attend that school who aren't athletes don't get shut out to maintain the numbers to stay in a small school division.

You want Canevin, Serra, OLSH and the like to play against Pine Richland, NA, Mt Lebo? Basketball and baseball/softball is one thing even though they still won't be competitive, but football would be total bloodbaths. Literally.

 

[pittdan77]

You want Canevin, Serra, OLSH and the like to play against Pine Richland, NA, Mt Lebo? Basketball and baseball/softball is one thing even though they still won't be competitive, but football would be total bloodbaths. Literally.

As opposed to what? Some of these private schools are fielding 260 pound average lines against single A schools that have 180 pound defensive tackles.

 

[Mikefln]

As opposed to what? Some of these private schools are fielding 260 pound average lines against single A schools that have 180 pound defensive tackles.

Not all private/Catholic schools look like that. Canevin (My school) looks like the typical single A school. They look no bigger or more athletic than their Single A opponents. When they get a good group of kids, they make a run just like most public's. Most Catholic schools look like that, no different then the typical public school. What you are stating is the exception not the rule. You just think it is the rule because the ones who do recruit are very noticeable because they win a lot and look different. That leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth so they classify all Privates/Catholic schools as being the same.

As opposed to what you ask, at least football based since it is more physical than other sports? How about common sense. You can't send 21-25 kids in grades 9-12 from a single A school to play a team of 50+ kids in grades 10-12 from a 4A school let a lone 6A school. Again it literally would be a blood bath. Force them to play up a division if you must, so a single A plays up to AA. What you don't do is send kids out to be slaughtered by having single A play against 6A. Not even Bishop Guilfoyle from the early/mid 2010's could have made that jump and survived, not win but survived.

 

[Harve74]

The reason that people miss the point about school size affecting academic achievement as much as athletic achievement is that there is no reason at all to think the two are correlated. There are smaller schools that do a great job educating kids. There are big schools that I wouldn't have sent my kids to for all the proverbial tea in China.

A school could be well positioned to educate a small number of students. If you only have four good athletes at your school you might be able to make a decent basketball team, but your football team isn't going to be able to compete.

They're generally related due to the resources a bigger school has to spend across all programs.

To posit otherwise is generally disingenuous.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

They're generally related due to the resources a bigger school has to spend across all programs.

To posit otherwise is generally disingenuous.

Then why are some of the worst schools in the state also some of the biggest schools in the state?

It is far easier for a smaller school to compete with a bigger school academically than it is for them to compete athletically. To posit otherwise is not generally disingenuous, it's absolutely disingenuous.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I am not talking about rare upsets. I am talking about results that happen often. You yourself were moaning that private / catholic schools win more championships than public schools. A big part of it is you have teams with better work ethics and coachability and coaches - especially at the 1A and 2A level where most of the private / Catholic schools fit. It is not hard to understand and accept that. At a 6A school, it is different because for example, North Allegheny has huge numbers of kids to choose from - so it is easier to get kids who work hard and are coachable because they have tons of others who can replace them if they don't. That is not the same at 1A and 2A where you have a much smaller number of kids

And sure, if you look anywhere, you can find some exceptions. I am sure you can find some talented athletic kids who ended up at a private / catholic school - just like you can find some talented athletic kids who transferred to another public school. Hell, most of the WPIAL recruiting cases involve public to public transfers. So you are the one struggling.

But since you say you have seen many instances where kids whose families don’t have two nickels to rub together can suddenly and magically afford to attend an expensive private school - ok, name names. because otherwise your post is just BS.

Tell me the names of the kids who were recruited and had their tuition paid at the expensive private schools (in Pittsburgh they are Shadyside Academy, Sewickley Academy, Winchester Thurston and Ellis) and in what sport. I will be waiting

And you are the one against fair competition because you want no rules and restrictions on any transfer.

The best solution is simple. I stated it before - Simply enforce the existing rules (which include the changes made last summer and which really now are just in all practicality going into effect ) equally and fairly across the board across the state and the problem is solved

Wait a second: I’m not moaning about anything. I could not care less who wins any high school championship.

I didn’t care too much about high school sports when I was in high school and I certainly don’t care about them now.

However, I absolutely DO CARE about the notions fairness and addressing systemic advantage. It is very clear that the private schools and the charter schools each have a very clear competitive advantage over the public schools.

The numbers bear it out.

That’s why you’re fighting me so hard on this. Clearly you do have a dog in the fight and of course you don’t want to surrender your competitive advantage. I don’t blame you. If I cared about that thing, I would want all the advantages I could protect as well.

That’s all well and good but let’s keep it respectful and honest. It’s not because they have a higher moral fiber and they work harder than those lowly public school scum. That’s just straight up bullshit no matter how you slice it.

It’s just that you showed your cards when you said that you had no problem with the charter schools being able to recruit against the public schools but you drew the line at saying that they should not be able to recruit against the private schools. That told me all I needed to know on a lot of fronts.

 

[superstein61a]

Wait a second: I’m not moaning about anything. I could not care less who wins any high school championship.

I didn’t care too much about high school sports when I was in high school and I certainly don’t care about them now.

However, I absolutely DO CARE about the notions fairness and addressing systemic advantage. It is very clear that the private schools and the charter schools each have a very clear competitive advantage over the public schools.

The numbers bear it out.

That’s why you’re fighting me so hard on this. Clearly you do have a dog in the fight and of course you don’t want to surrender your competitive advantage. I don’t blame you. If I cared about that thing, I would want all the advantages I could protect as well.

That’s all well and good but let’s keep it respectful and honest. It’s not because they have a higher moral fiber and they work harder than those lowly public school scum. That’s just straight up bullshit no matter how you slice it.

It’s just that you showed your cards when you said that you had no problem with the charter schools being able to recruit against the public schools but you drew the line at saying that they should not be able to recruit against the private schools. That told me all I needed to know on a lot of fronts.

First, I have no dog in the fight. I just happen to have experience working with a variety of educational institutions (not in a teaching capacity but a financial / operational one - and I did assist in some coaching). Over the course of my career, I worked for a University (Pitt), a public school and a private school. So I have seen up front all sides of this argument.

Each school, public, private, catholic, charter has advantages and disadvantages. You are absolutely wrong when you say that
"It is very clear that the private schools and the charter schools each have a very clear competitive advantage over the public schools." That is complete fiction from people like you who do not know any better. And you can't cite facts to back up your assertion.

Public schools are restricted by boundaries. That said, public schools are free. And public schools who want to have found a way to recruit by having a kid go live with a relative or have the family get a cheap apartment in the district

Private schools charge tuition. If you think it is so easy to get families to fork out $30K a year to attend a private school, try it someday. Even those that give out need based financial aid that may range up to 70%, that is still close to $10K a year. if you think people are paying that to be on some athletic team, I have some nice swamp land in Florida to sell you. In addition, there is the added difficulty of transportation to and from school. You are either looking at inconvenient bus rides if they are within the public school radius for bussing, long bus rides that they have to pay for if outside that radius if the service even exists, or finding their own transportation.

Catholic schools charge tuition - the have similar challenges as private schools, only at a different level as their tuition is lower - in the $12K range a year. Same issues with transportation

Charter schools are free to the person attending. Their challenge is the transportation. That is why if I said if there is any separation of playoffs (and I think there should not be any, no need to) that Charters belong with public schools because that is what they are - free public education.

As to you, well I am still waiting. You like to throw out statements with zero facts supporting them. I asked you before:

Since you say you have seen many instances where kids whose families don’t have two nickels to rub together can suddenly and magically afford to attend an expensive private school - ok, name names. because otherwise your post is just BS.

Tell me the names of the kids who were recruited and had their tuition paid at the expensive private schools (in Pittsburgh they are Shadyside Academy, Sewickley Academy, Winchester Thurston and Ellis) and in what sport.

I am still waiting. I suspect it will be a long wait because you know your post is unsubstantiated BS

 

[superstein61a]

Not all private/Catholic schools look like that. Canevin (My school) looks like the typical single A school. They look no bigger or more athletic than their Single A opponents. When they get a good group of kids, they make a run just like most public's. Most Catholic schools look like that, no different then the typical public school. What you are stating is the exception not the rule. You just think it is the rule because the ones who do recruit are very noticeable because they win a lot and look different. That leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth so they classify all Privates/Catholic schools as being the same.

Mike - you nailed it. But the naysayers won't hear you. The facts are there are a handful of schools, public, private, catholic, charter that break the rules and recruit. They are the exception, not the rule. You don't need to change the entire system / playoffs to deal with the exceptions.

You simply enforce the rules as written equitably and fairly across the state. And this includes the new rules that really are just going to start making an impact this year going forward to address the loopholes the handful of cheaters were exploiting.

It is comical to say just throw all the private / Catholic schools up in 6A. Most are small 1A / 2A schools whose team probably consists of the 20 kids who come out for it. Sure, lets have schools fielding football or lacrosse, etc teams made up of 20 kids (with no 9th grade / JV) when schools like North Allegheny have huge squads and multiple JV / 9th grade squads because they have several hundred kids come out for the team. Comical

 

[pittdan77]

It is comical to say just throw all the private / Catholic schools up in 6A. Most are small 1A / 2A schools whose team probably consists of the 20 kids who come out for it. Sure, lets have schools fielding football or lacrosse, etc teams made up of 20 kids (with no 9th grade / JV) when schools like North Allegheny have huge squads and multiple JV / 9th grade squads because they have several hundred kids come out for the team. Comical

You think it's comical but it cuts both ways. My statement did exactly what I thought it would. Draw out the "it's not fair to the poor little private schools that don't recruit" argument. It's not comical for a true little school to have to take a beating against a school that recruits and fields a team bigger than it's 6A neighbor but that's what is currently happening.

For years, the private school defenders argued that if the rest of us don't like the rules, change them. Well, someone is changing them.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

if you think people are paying that to be on some athletic team, I have some nice swamp land in Florida to sell you.

I have 2 kids who currently play at Saint Francis. One is a 4 star under armour all American with 20-25 power 5 offers. Both of my kids don't pay a dime. That is free tuition, room, and board.

I also know a private school in central PA that has produced a laundry list of d1 college football players. I've been teammates and friends with both players and coaches. I know for a fact they've had kids that don't pay dime.

 

[Mikefln]

You think it's comical but it cuts both ways. My statement did exactly what I thought it would. Draw out the "it's not fair to the poor little private schools that don't recruit" argument. It's not comical for a true little school to have to take a beating against a school that recruits and fields a team bigger than it's 6A neighbor but that's what is currently happening.

For years, the private school defenders argued that if the rest of us don't like the rules, change them. Well, someone is changing them.

Who have been the best small school teams (football wise) in the state the past decade? Clairton, Farrell, Southern Columbia, Wilmington, Bishop Guilfoyle, Berlin Brothersvalley, Ligonier, Steel Valley, Washington and South Fayette until their enrollment exploded fairly recently. And if Aliqquippa played where their enrollment puts them instead of playing up they would also.

I count 1 private school in that list. If you want to add North Catholic back when they were in the North Side you can also, but again that was a good group of kids more than anything else but hey I will give you it to go to 2 schools. So 2 out of 12 schools in the small classifications. Basically I am calling BS on your premise that these Catholic schools are creating dangerous situations since the public's I mentioned are everybit as good and big and physical as the 2 Catholics schools I mentioned. Now if you are talking about sports other than football you may have a point ( I know Basketball is out of proportion) but there isn't as physically dangerous situations in those sports so it is not as big of a deal to play up.

If anything I would say 4A-6A is where the Catholic schools really flex their power. If you want an Erie Cathedral Prep, Wood, Bishop McD etc to play up to 6A, along with already in 6A St Joe's, PCC, that's and argument I can understand. But forcing the Canevin, Serra, OLSH (even though they won the WPIAL this year), and Seton LaSalles of the world into 6A is not just silly it is Dangerous. To suggest otherwise is nonsense. Like I said Bishop Guilfoyle would struggle to stay healthy in 4A let alone 6A and they are probably the closest to being what you hate about Catholic schools in the small classes. The most I would be willing to give is in a 6 class system have them move up 2 classes at most. In a 4 class system like the old way I would give you 1 class up at most. They would struggle to be competitive but at least they would not get physically destroyed.

 

[Mikefln]

I have 2 kids who currently play at Saint Francis. One is a 4 star under armour all American with 20-25 power 5 offers. Both of my kids don't pay a dime. That is free tuition, room, and board.

I also know a private school in central PA that has produced a laundry list of d1 college football players. I've been teammates and friends with both players and coaches. I know for a fact they've had kids that don't pay dime.

I do not know those kids, I do not know those schools other than a few articles it sounds like St Francis is recruiting. I at least, never claimed that some Private/Catholic schools recruit, as i know some do. Publics do too. What I can tell you is that not all Catholic/Private schools do that, in fact I am willing to bet that most don't.

One other thing, how many kids do you know go to college on scholarship for sports other than football and basketball? The term scholarship gets thrown out a bunch in these other sports but the reality is they are partial scholarships as you have a wrestling team of 25-30 with 20 of them on scholarship but there are 9.9 scholarships for D1 wrestling. The math is not there for all of them to be on full scholarship, so they are on partial. I bet if you asked those kids or other kids on baseball/softball, volleyball, etc etc if they were on scholarship they will say yes, leaving the impression they are on full scholarship.

You say they don't pay one dime to go to St Francis, and that not only includes tuition, but room and board. I did not know the schools financial situation but it has less than 200 kids per wikiepida. If these kids are not paying a dime, then I am guessing a booster is picking up the tab because I cannot see a way the school or Diocese is picking up full tuition. There is money for partial aid, but no full tuition in my experience in the Catholic school system. Plus room and board? Please provide info if I am wrong, but I saw no information that St Francis has boarding anymore. The last reference I saw mention it was from the 80's on the quick search I did. My point is talk is cheap when talking about that scholarship. There are a lot of details that are not being mentioned.

 

[pittdan77]

Who have been the best small school teams (football wise) in the state the past decade? Clairton, Farrell, Southern Columbia, Wilmington, Bishop Guilfoyle, Berlin Brothersvalley, Ligonier, Steel Valley, Washington and South Fayette until their enrollment exploded fairly recently. And if Aliqquippa played where their enrollment puts them instead of playing up they would also.

I count 1 private school in that list. If you want to add North Catholic back when they were in the North Side you can also, but again that was a good group of kids more than anything else but hey I will give you it to go to 2 schools. So 2 out of 12 schools in the small classifications. Basically I am calling BS on your premise that these Catholic schools are creating dangerous situations since the public's I mentioned are everybit as good and big and physical as the 2 Catholics schools I mentioned. Now if you are talking about sports other than football you may have a point ( I know Basketball is out of proportion) but there isn't as physically dangerous situations in those sports so it is not as big of a deal to play up.

If anything I would say 4A-6A is where the Catholic schools really flex their power. If you want an Erie Cathedral Prep, Wood, Bishop McD etc to play up to 6A, along with already in 6A St Joe's, PCC, that's and argument I can understand. But forcing the Canevin, Serra, OLSH (even though they won the WPIAL this year), and Seton LaSalles of the world into 6A is not just silly it is Dangerous. To suggest otherwise is nonsense. Like I said Bishop Guilfoyle would struggle to stay healthy in 4A let alone 6A and they are probably the closest to being what you hate about Catholic schools in the small classes. The most I would be willing to give is in a 6 class system have them move up 2 classes at most. In a 4 class system like the old way I would give you 1 class up at most. They would struggle to be competitive but at least they would not get physically destroyed.

Please. Guilfoyle blew out 3A schools in 2016 before the reclassification to 6 divisions. Won their three district playoff games by a combined score of like 160-12. Could have easily won the district in 4A that year although a lot of that was because they had most of the best players in Altoona on their roster. Why is that any less "dangerous"?

 

[superstein61a]

I have 2 kids who currently play at Saint Francis. One is a 4 star under armour all American with 20-25 power 5 offers. Both of my kids don't pay a dime. That is free tuition, room, and board.

I also know a private school in central PA that has produced a laundry list of d1 college football players. I've been teammates and friends with both players and coaches. I know for a fact they've had kids that don't pay dime.

Where the hell is Saint Francis?
Who the hell is Saint Francis school? Never heard of them.
I am talking Western PA and the WPIAL

And I never said there are not schools that recruit. You can find some public schools that recruit. You can find some private / Catholic schools that recruit. You can find Charter schools that recruit. But they are the exception, not the rule

 

[Mikefln]

Please. Guilfoyle blew out 3A schools in 2016 before the reclassification to 6 divisions. Won their three district playoff games by a combined score of like 160-12. Could have easily won the district in 4A that year although a lot of that was because they had most of the best players in Altoona on their roster. Why is that any less "dangerous"?

You serious? You said you were a D1 football player. You see no difference between playing against 1 or 2 teams physically superior a year vs 10 games in a row? Also Clairton, Washington, Jeanette, Farrell, etc would have fared similarly in D6 as BG did. You make it sound like BG being private is the only way they could have competed and win in D6 4A. If BG would have won 4A those years it is because D6 is that weak anymore and the small public schools I mentioned could have done the same in D6 4A. Even though the WPIAL is not what it was, those BG teams would have struggled mightily in WPIAL 3A.

 

[superstein61a]

It's not comical for a true little school to have to take a beating against a school that recruits and fields a team bigger than it's 6A neighbor but that's what is currently happening.
.

Really ??? What 1A or 2A school in Western PA is fielding a football team bigger than 6A squads. Just more hyperbole from you

 

[pittdan77]

Even though the WPIAL is not what it was, those BG teams would have struggled mightily in WPIAL 3A.

I can't agree with that. They might not have run the table or hung with TJ but they were as big as the average 3A team.

You're conflating arguments a little. Those public schools that were dominant do happen. Clairton used speed but they didn't stand a chance against bigger teams. BG proved that.

 

[pittdan77]

Really ??? What 1A or 2A school in Western PA is fielding a football team bigger than 6A squads. Just more hyperbole from you

Where did I write that there were any? PA is kind of a big state and they do play football in other places.

 

[Mikefln]

I can't agree with that. They might not have run the table or hung with TJ but they were as big as the average 3A team.

You're conflating arguments a little. Those public schools that were dominant do happen. Clairton used speed but they didn't stand a chance against bigger teams. BG proved that.

Yes those BG teams could compete against 3A schools. Not today's BG teams, which is still a good program/team, but not world beaters anymore. But those State Title BG teams could have played a 3A schedule and competed. Still if you forced them to 6A it would have been a safety concern.

You are ignoring my arguments that Blairsville or Penn Manor playing against BG once a year is not the same as Canevin or even BG team that you say could have competed in 3A, playing a full schedule of 6A teams with a schedule looking like Butler, Hempfield, Norwin, BP, Mt Lebo, North Allegheny, Pine Richland, Pittsburgh Central Catholic. There is no way a school that size can complete a full season like that. Those schools are now playing and in some circumstances, starting 9th graders as there is no freshman or JV teams. All those 6A schools have freshman and JV teams and if you are 9th grade playing and starting varsity it is because you really are that good, not because you are a warm body like these small private schools.

 

[Mikefln]

I can't agree with that. They might not have run the table or hung with TJ but they were as big as the average 3A team.

You're conflating arguments a little. Those public schools that were dominant do happen. Clairton used speed but they didn't stand a chance against bigger teams. BG proved that.

One other thing, BG proved that against Clairton? Clairton lost by 1 point.

let's look at the Catholic over public's in single A of the past decade.

2013 North Catholic 15 Old Forge 14 1 pt difference
2014 BG 19 Clairton 18 1 pt difference
2015 BG 35 Farrell 0 35 pt difference
2016 BG 17 Clairton 0 1 7 pt difference

Now Public schools vs puiblic or catholic

2009 Clairton 15 Bishop McCort 3 12 pt difference
2010 Clairton 36 Riverside 30 6 pt difference
2011 Clairton 35 Southern Columbia 19 16 pt difference
2012 Clairton 20 Dunmore 20 pt difference
2017 Jeannette 42 Homer City 12 30 pt difference
2018 Farrell 55 Lackawanna Trail 20 25 pt difference

As for AA there has not been a private school in the state championship game since Lancaster Catholic in 2011 unless you count Imhotep then it is 2013 which Imotep lost.

So basically like I said the fact is that BG or anyother small private school is not destroying anyone more than the publics are capable of. Also, even if the priovate are physically superior, it is way different playing privates schools 1 time a year vs private schools playing a 6A schedule from a health standpoint.

 

[superstein61a]

Where did I write that there were any? PA is kind of a big state and they do play football in other places.

Well in a previous response that is what you implied:

Mikefln said: ↑
You want Canevin, Serra, OLSH and the like to play against Pine Richland, NA, Mt Lebo? Basketball and baseball/softball is one thing even though they still won't be competitive, but football would be total bloodbaths. Literally.

As opposed to what? Some of these private schools are fielding 260 pound average lines against single A schools that have 180 pound defensive tackles.

But ok - since you admit no 1A and 2A schools in Western PA field teams bigger than 6A teams, name the 1A and 2A schools in the rest of the state that do so