Louisville Game at the Pete & Other Dribbles ...

[Joe the Panther Fan]

So he was taken out after being in the game for 8:37. Included in the 8:37 was

- the under 16 TV timeout
- the under 12 TV timeout
- the Louisville full TV timeout with 8:16 left.

So he had *THREE* rests of at least 2 minutes.

This isn't soccer with a continuous running clock and no rests. He played 8 and a half minutes and had at least 6 minutes of rest during that time. If you want to argue that he couldn't have stayed in and "needed a blow", I will disagree every time.

Actually I didn't say that he needed a blow. I said that perhaps he needed one. I admit that there are some things that I don't know, and that is one of them.

However, one does wonder with the kind of logic you are exhibiting here why it is that you don't advocate the five best players playing 40 minutes per game every game. I mean after all, those guys get four TV timeouts in the first half and then five more in the second half. And they also get to take a break whenever either team uses one of their three 30 second timeouts or their one 60 second time out. With all those timeouts it's a wonder that anyone ever needs a break.

 

[UPitt '89]

By the way, the funny thing is that you said he was out for five possessions and yet the fifth possession after he left the game was actually a Ryan Luther layup at 5:24. So what you are saying is that Ryan Luther scored a basket when he wasn't even in the game.

Perhaps the NCAA ought to investigate how that happened.

I counted five Louisville possessions between Luther leaving and Luther scoring the 52nd point on the ESPN gamecast. It didn't show him as in the game when it was 48-48, it showed him in at 51-50.

The overall point remains. Putting Young back into a game in which he was an obvious liability at that point in time was a bad coaching move.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

He's not wrong. We all noticed the momentum shift when Luther was taken out. What are you referring to?

I'm referring to the fact that he said Luther was out for five possessions when in reality he was only out for three. And then when confronted with the evidence that shows he was wrong instead of saying "oh, sorry, I got that part wrong" he doubled down and wants to pretend that the game log somehow has Luther entering and leaving the game at the wrong time.

He was, in fact, wrong.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

So it wasn't the missed free throws ?
It was subbing Luther

Progress?

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I counted five Louisville possessions between Luther leaving and Luther scoring the 52nd point on the ESPN gamecast. It didn't show him as in the game when it was 48-48, it showed him in at 51-50.

I don't care if it shows him in at 48-48 or not. That IS when he came back into the game. He left when it was 48-43 and he came back in when it was 48-48. The difference is that I am going by the actual game log and you are trying to infer when the substitutions happened based on when someone's name appeared in the box score. One of those is obviously more accurate.

However, if you don't believe me then look at the ESPN game log. They have a link there to a video clip of Mike Young's dunk that made the score 50-48. Guess who passed the ball to Young before he drove to the basket? I'll give you a hint. It was a kind of tall guy wearing jersey number 4. I wonder who that guy is?

 

[UPitt '89]

Actually I didn't say that he needed a blow. I said that perhaps he needed one. I admit that there are some things that I don't know, and that is one of them.

However, one does wonder with the kind of logic you are exhibiting here why it is that you don't advocate the five best players playing 40 minutes per game every game. I mean after all, those guys get four TV timeouts in the first half and then five more in the second half. And they also get to take a break whenever either team uses one of their three 30 second timeouts or their one 60 second time out. With all those timeouts it's a wonder that anyone ever needs a break.

James Robinson played 40 minutes at Syracuse and 38 minutes tonight.

Duke has a 6-man rotation in which the starters all get 35 minutes or more each game.

Syracuse has a 7-man rotation in which the starters are averaging 33+ minutes.

These aren't geriatric old men.

I advocate for the players who are playing the best to get more minutes and the players that are playing poorly to get less.

Luther got 28 minutes tonight. Young got 32.

Early in the second half, it was abundantly clear that Mike Young was a liability in THIS PARTICULAR game. Jamie recognized it himself when Louisville took a 40-37 lead, largely because of Mike Young's play. After pulling Young, and seeing the Panthers respond with their best play of the evening... it was lunacy to put him back in. This wasn't his night. Young should've watched most of the remainder of the game from the bench. Go with what is working.

The happiest guy in the arena at the 8:16 mark of the second half was Rick Pitino... when he looked out on the court and saw Mike Young there and Ryan Luther on the bench. At that point, he knew his team's ship was about to be righted.

 

[PittPoker]

I'm referring to the fact that he said Luther was out for five possessions when in reality he was only out for three. And then when confronted with the evidence that shows he was wrong instead of saying "oh, sorry, I got that part wrong" he doubled down and wants to pretend that the game log somehow has Luther entering and leaving the game at the wrong time.

He was, in fact, wrong.

Oh

 

[whirlybird optio]

James Robinson played 40 minutes at Syracuse and 38 minutes tonight.

Duke has a 6-man rotation in which the starters all get 35 minutes or more each game.

Syracuse has a 7-man rotation in which the starters are averaging 33+ minutes.

These aren't geriatric old men.

I advocate for the players who are playing the best to get more minutes and the players that are playing poorly to get less.

Luther got 28 minutes tonight. Young got 32.

Early in the second half, it was abundantly clear that Mike Young was a liability in THIS PARTICULAR game. Jamie recognized it himself when Louisville took a 40-37 lead, largely because of Mike Young's play. After pulling Young, and seeing the Panthers respond with their best play of the evening... it was lunacy to put him back in. This wasn't his night. Young should've watched most of the remainder of the game from the bench. Go with what is working.

The happiest guy in the arena at the 8:16 mark of the second half was Rick Pitino... when he looked out on the court and saw Mike Young there and Ryan Luther on the bench. At that point, he knew his team's ship was about to be righted.

And if Luther says, "Coach, I need a break"...you tell him no? I'm not saying that happened, but if Luther said he needed a rest, I don't see how you kill Jamie for giving him one. My first thought, when Young came back in the game, was that..."Wow, Luther has just crushed Young today. Maybe Mike will respond given that another player, at the same position, is just flat out better"...but alas. I forgot it was Mike Young i was talking about.

My blame scale between Young and Jamie is 100-0 if Luther said he needed a break, and 70-30 if he didn't. I still blame Young most.

 

[whirlybird optio]

James Robinson played 40 minutes at Syracuse and 38 minutes tonight.

Duke has a 6-man rotation in which the starters all get 35 minutes or more each game.

Syracuse has a 7-man rotation in which the starters are averaging 33+ minutes.

These aren't geriatric old men.

I advocate for the players who are playing the best to get more minutes and the players that are playing poorly to get less.

Luther got 28 minutes tonight. Young got 32.

Early in the second half, it was abundantly clear that Mike Young was a liability in THIS PARTICULAR game. Jamie recognized it himself when Louisville took a 40-37 lead, largely because of Mike Young's play. After pulling Young, and seeing the Panthers respond with their best play of the evening... it was lunacy to put him back in. This wasn't his night. Young should've watched most of the remainder of the game from the bench. Go with what is working.

The happiest guy in the arena at the 8:16 mark of the second half was Rick Pitino... when he looked out on the court and saw Mike Young there and Ryan Luther on the bench. At that point, he knew his team's ship was about to be righted.

Also, I don't think those are great examples. This Duke team is pretty ordinary this year, precisely because of their lack of depth. Syracuse has sanctions and again, they aren't that good. When Pitt wears down Syracuse, twice this season, maybe its actually due to our depth??

I don't know, I hated taking Luther out at the time, I really did. But the more I think about it, the more I think your "best" player has to respond, and he just blew it.

 

[UPitt '89]

And if Luther says, "Coach, I need a break"...you tell him no? I'm not saying that happened, but if Luther said he needed a rest, I don't see how you kill Jamie for giving him one. My first thought, when Young came back in the game, was that..."Wow, Luther has just crushed Young today. Maybe Mike will respond given that another player, at the same position, is just flat out better"...but alas. I forgot it was Mike Young i was talking about.

My blame scale between Young and Jamie is 100-0 if Luther said he needed a break, and 70-30 if he didn't. I still blame Young most.

I blame Young the most for the second half of this season. He is underachieving badly.

But I blame Jamie for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory tonight. He had the game in his hands, and he pissed it away by going against all logic.

If Luther DID say he needed a break, I would've rather gone with Jeter, Maia, or even Ododa at that point - given the game Young was having.

 

[PittPoker]

But the more I think about it, the more I think your "best" player has to respond, and he just blew it.

Yeah but he hadn't done much of anything the whole game. At that point less than 10 minutes to go I think you just had to assume he wouldn't play well enough to help and use other options.

 

[whirlybird optio]

I blame Young the most for the second half of this season. He is underachieving badly.

But I blame Jamie for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory tonight. He had the game in his hands, and he pissed it away by going against all logic.

If Luther DID say he needed a break, I would've rather gone with Jeter, Maia, or even Ododa at that point - given the game Young was having.

That's fair. And I thought about that too, although, and this is hard to imagine, Jeter was actually worse than Young tonight. Jeter's line tonight is like all time bad.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

First of all, don't you think that Coach K would be ecstatic if Amile Jefferson wasn't injured and he could be playing him 30 minutes a night?

Secondly, Duke does not have a starting rotation where the starters all get 35 minutes or more every game. Grayson Allen leads Duke in minutes per game at 35.5. He is the ONLY Duke player averaging 35 minutes per game. In fact, if you don't include Jefferson, who has only played 9 games, Duke only has four guys averaging over 30 minutes per game, Allen, Ingram, Jones and Plumlee. Fifth is Thornton at 26.6 per game.

 

[UPitt '89]

That's fair. And I thought about that too, although, and this is hard to imagine, Jeter was actually worse than Young tonight. Jeter's line tonight is like all time bad.

That's true. If there's one player who played worse tonight than Young, it was Jeter.

At least Maia or Ododa would've defended the rim and not had Adel blow right past them for a dunk.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

That's fair. And I thought about that too, although, and this is hard to imagine, Jeter was actually worse than Young tonight. Jeter's line tonight is like all time bad.

And for some reason we are completely letting the guy off the hook who shot 3-13 tonight (as opposed to Young's 5-10) and who turned the ball over five times (as opposed to Young's three). Although that 0-4 from the line by Young is a lot uglier than that other guy's 5-6.

 

[UPitt '89]

First of all, don't you think that Coach K would be ecstatic if Amile Jefferson wasn't injured and he could be playing him 30 minutes a night?

Secondly, Duke does not have a starting rotation where the starters all get 35 minutes or more every game. Grayson Allen leads Duke in minutes per game at 35.5. He is the ONLY Duke player averaging 35 minutes per game. In fact, if you don't include Jefferson, who has only played 9 games, Duke only has four guys averaging over 30 minutes per game, Allen, Ingram, Jones and Plumlee. Fifth is Thornton at 26.6 per game.

In their past three games, since Jones went out... their starters are playing almost the entire game. Those averages were largely built during the non-con season. Allen, Ingram, Plumlee, and Thornton played almost the entire game the past couple.

Of course Coach K would love to have Jefferson. But I'll tell you what else.... when a player is underperforming, Coach K has no problem benching him. Ask Rasheed Sulaimon... now of the Maryland Terrapins. Coach K benched him often when he wasn't playing the way Coach K thought he should be playing.

The players that earn the minutes play the most. That's how it should work.

My point is that all of these players are capable of playing most of the game. If Coach K needs him to, Grayson Allen will play 40 minutes. Same with Ingram and Thornton.

And Ryan Luther was certainly capable of playing more than 8:37 consecutively, especially with three full timeouts during that span.

 

[whirlybird optio]

And for some reason we are completely letting the guy off the hook who shot 3-13 tonight (as opposed to Young's 5-10) and who turned the ball over five times (as opposed to Young's three). Although that 0-4 from the line by Young is a lot uglier than that other guy's 5-6.

Oh, I'll lay into Jamel too. Everything we did today was better when neither young or artis touched the ball, that's for sure. I'm not even going to kill Mike for the FT's...that happens.

My issue with Mike is that, I've concluded, that he is the infection on this team. He was so good early in the year I think the team absolutely feeds off of him. And no one in America, that I've seen, has worse body language, sulks more, than Mike. I think his effort and attitude have infected this team, and its contagious.

 

[UPitt '89]

And for some reason we are completely letting the guy off the hook who shot 3-13 tonight (as opposed to Young's 5-10) and who turned the ball over five times (as opposed to Young's three). Although that 0-4 from the line by Young is a lot uglier than that other guy's 5-6.

I didn't let Artis off the hook at all. I have about a dozen posts in various threads tonight saying how Artis and Young may be the dumbest starting players at Pitt in the past 15 years. How Artis and Young are not nearly living up to their capabilities.

Young was problem 1A tonight, Artis was problem 1B.

 

[whirlybird optio]

I didn't let Artis off the hook at all. I have about a dozen posts in various threads tonight saying how Artis and Young may be the dumbest starting players at Pitt in the past 15 years. How Artis and Young are not nearly living up to their capabilities.

Young was problem 1A tonight, Artis was problem 1B.

I don't know if they are the dumbest, but they certainly don't look anything like the 2 best players on a Howland/Dixon team. The would have fit in well with Willard, or especially the later Evans years.

 

[KiwiJeff]

And if Luther says, "Coach, I need a break"...you tell him no? I'm not saying that happened, but if Luther said he needed a rest, I don't see how you kill Jamie for giving him one. My first thought, when Young came back in the game, was that..."Wow, Luther has just crushed Young today. Maybe Mike will respond given that another player, at the same position, is just flat out better"...but alas. I forgot it was Mike Young i was talking about.

My blame scale between Young and Jamie is 100-0 if Luther said he needed a break, and 70-30 if he didn't. I still blame Young most.

If we don't take Luther out and put Young in, and we still lost, a different poster (or maybe the same ones) would complain about NOT making the switch and why are you leaving Young on the bench down the stretch? And pork would like it and take that up as his cause du jour either way.

 

[UPitt '89]

If we don't take Luther out and put Young in, and we still lost, a different poster (or maybe the same ones) would complain about NOT making the switch and why are you leaving Young on the bench down the stretch? And pork would like it and take that up as his cause du jour either way.

You were in the game thread.

You saw several of us say it AT THE TIME.

Those comments are still there.

By me, during the timeout: "Pitt is on an 11-3 run since Young went out. Leave him on the bench."

It's right there in the game thread.

By TiredRam, right after Young came in .... "i blame Jamie for the impending loss from taking Luther out here."

This isn't revisionist history. It was said at the moment it was happening.

YOU are revising history here.

 

[KiwiJeff]

You were in the game thread.

You saw several of us say it AT THE TIME.

Those comments are still there.

By me, during the timeout: "Pitt is on an 11-3 run since Young went out. Leave him on the bench."

It's right there in the game thread.

By TiredRam, right after Young came in .... "i blame Jamie for the impending loss from taking Luther out here."

This isn't revisionist history. It was said at the moment it was happening.

YOU are revising history here.

I wasn't posting during the game, only around half time, so I hadn't seen that. My point stands, SOMEBODY would have posted it. I've been here too long to think otherwise.

 

[pittbb80]

The energy some of you have to beat a realtivel insigificant topic (in the grand scheme of things) to death is fascinating

 

[UPitt '89]

The energy some of you have to beat a realtivel insigificant topic (in the grand scheme of things) to death is fascinating

The most pivotal moment in a loss in a game that would've punched Pitt's ncaa ticket was a suspect coaching decision.

That merits discussion.

 

[pittbb80]

The most pivotal moment in a loss in a game that would've punched Pitt's ncaa ticket was a suspect coaching decision.

That merits discussion.

Knock yourself out..........I get exhausted reading half the thread.........lol

 

[cabe23]

I do not know who made the pass to Luther, but I think it was a poor pass for two reasons:

1) I do not think it was delivered very well

2) One needs to realize who one is throwing the ball to and what that person would be required to do upon catching the ball. I do not like our chances of Luther catching that ball on the run and converting a layup at full speed.

DT - who made the pass and who was available on the other wing? - I don't remember

Chris Jones and yes it was.

 

[NTOP]

Mike Young, the poor young man is a mess right now. Actually a liability. I hope he finds himself. Needs to take a page out of Ryan's book and forget about being a "superstar" and play basketball and hustle.

He doesn't seem right, physically. Not injured, but just listless at times. Sheldon is bewildering....or bewildered??

 

[UPitt '89]

He doesn't seem right, physically. Not injured, but just listless at times. Sheldon is bewildering....or bewildered??

When a 80% FT shooter goes 0-4 at the line with three of them clanging off the front rim.... you're right, something is off physically

 

[UPitt129]

That's false.

He didn't play the first roughly 4 minutes of the second half.... and was taken out with 7 minutes to go. That means he was in for roughly 9 minutes consecutively at that point. And had a 3-minute TV timeout to "get a blow".

Buys you clearly didn't want him out at all, so that would have been about 17 minutes to end the game.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

When a 80% FT shooter goes 0-4 at the line with three of them clanging off the front rim.... you're right, something is off physically

Or it's just an aberration and nothing indicative of anything .

 

[9nationalchampionships]

One thing was apparent: The scrubs on Lou are better than the starters for PITT!

 

[UPitt '89]

Or it's just an aberration and nothing indicative of anything .

Not when they all front rim. That indicates tired legs or broken technique.

 

[gary2]

He doesn't seem right, physically. Not injured, but just listless at times. Sheldon is bewildering....or bewildered??

I agree with the listless. After making a bad play, he seemed like he did not have the energy to even walk back half way to his defensive position.

 

[thebadby2]

I find it amazing how we've went from players like Chevy , Biggs , Blair , Gary , Nas who all had such heart and tenacity to guys like Mike Young who's main concern is to go 1 on 1 every possession and play no defense ...really sad to watch sometimes

Mike's problem isn't that he likes to go on 1 on 1--that would be a good take for us 90% of the time as he is a very tough guard for one defender of any size---its that he consistently drops his head and shoulders and goes 1 on 3 or 1 on 4. It's as though he makes up his mind, says "F it" and just bulldozes into the teeth of the D. He, and the team, would be SO much better if he could simply draw and dish--when he sucks in 3 defenders it leaves a lot of opportunities for our other 4 guys. Apparently unselfishness is not in Mike's basketball DNA. He has a lot of talent and is a real matchup problem for many teams, but until he starts to recognize the need to pass the ball when he draws the defense, so what?

he is still an essential player for us and he did some really nice things last night, especially working the baseline. Yet he missed all 4 of his foul shots despite being an 80% shooter, and had his usual number of forced, super low percentage shots that might as well have been turnovers. You have to questions his attitude as those missed FTs in particular seemed way too nonchalant and lazy. Frustrating player.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Not when they all front rim. That indicates tired legs or broken technique.

he made 7-9 against Wake playing 42 minutes.
He's missed his last 2 FGA (2 against Cuse -35 minutes) and 4 against UL ( 32 minutes).

He's in a slump in about every facet of his game right now. I don't think it's fatigue or bad technique...he's just mentally struggling.

 

[UPitt '89]

He's in a slump in about every facet of his game right now. I don't think it's fatigue or bad technique...he's just mentally struggling.

I certainly agree that 99% of his problems are mental. His problems are almost all between his ears.

 

[drgags]

I agree with DT. IF you can't substitute Young for Luther and expect things to be ok you are off your rocker. Looked to me Luther needed a break, his effort was way more than most playing, he was making every hustle play he could. Missed the pass, why, tired. He makes that play undoubtedly most of the time. YOUNG did not step up period. The effort is not there. I am of the belief his head is bigger than his game. He has not learned to deal with the double and triple teams and is out to get his. Having said that you have to think he can help you or at least hold par, if not, you sub again for him with a well rested Luther for the stretch run. It backfired for many reasons.

The defense allowing a team to shoot over 50 percent will not ever help you win. Shooting poorly from three and the turnovers are terrible. (I sound like Dixon). This game was not Jamie's fault on game day and I usually am his worst critic. We need a better roster. That is his fault. Period.

Hail to Pitt...I think we beat Duke. I will be there supporting our coach and team. Hope others do as well.

 

[UPitt '89]

I agree with DT. IF you can't substitute Young for Luther and expect things to be ok you are off your rocker. Looked to me Luther needed a break, his effort was way more than most playing, he was making every hustle play he could. Missed the pass, why, tired. He makes that play undoubtedly most of the time. YOUNG did not step up period. The effort is not there. I am of the belief his head is bigger than his game. He has not learned to deal with the double and triple teams and is out to get his. Having said that you have to think he can help you or at least hold par, if not, you sub again for him with a well rested Luther for the stretch run. It backfired for many reasons.

The defense allowing a team to shoot over 50 percent will not ever help you win. Shooting poorly from three and the turnovers are terrible. (I sound like Dixon). This game was not Jamie's fault on game day and I usually am his worst critic. We need a better roster. That is his fault. Period.

Hail to Pitt...I think we beat Duke. I will be there supporting our coach and team. Hope others do as well.

You'll certainly get no argument from me about Young.

The most disappointing player on the roster. With Artis not far behind.

 

[JS School]

I certainly agree that 99% of his problems are mental. His problems are almost all between his ears.

His stroke on his foul shots looked pretty tentative, like he was more worried about missing them than confident he could make them.

Lots of mentions about his body language on here lately. To be honest, I never liked his body language from the first time I saw him as a freshman. I figured it was just a misinterpretation of his mannerisms on my part at the time, so now I'm not sure what to to think.

For what it's worth, to me he looks more frustrated than lazy or selfish. He is selfish, but it I think its more from trying to force things than having a disregard for the team.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

I'd proffer that during the timeout..maybe, just maybe...Luther asked for a break? Is it possible considering the wind he was sucking by that point?