Why do the law abiding person need to kill the bad guy for him to successfully use a gun to stop the threat. Actually the first thing they teach you when taking a gun self defense class is that you do not shoot to kill, you shoot to stop the treat. Again every year there are over 500,000 cases in police blogs of sucessful self defense with a gun. There are not 500,000 gun deaths in this country. Learn what you are talking about before you go around stating someone has insane notions when your goal post is not the objective.
OT: Another "thoughts and prayers" evening
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Why do the law abiding person need to kill the bad guy for him to successfully use a gun to stop the threat. Actually the first thing they teach you when taking a gun self defense class is that you do not shoot to kill, you shoot to stop the treat. Again every year there are over 500,000 cases in police blogs of sucessful self defense with a gun. There are not 500,000 gun deaths in this country. Learn what you are talking about before you go around stating someone has insane notions when your goal post is not the objective.
They've never had weapons. Cultural differences.
Yea they would but there would still be less murders. You cant stop every murder, just some
So, you think outlawing something is going to magically eliminate ALL of the guns currently in the US?
Because that's what you are saying by using you example.
England and Japan NEVER had the guns to start with. Outlawing guns will not put us in the same position in this country. The guns will still be here.
You can't wish something to be true.
You ask for laws to be made on a wish that they will do something, which they won't.
Yes I think both would go down but it would happen slowly. I also don't think that's ever going to happen so it's just a thought exercise with no basis in reality. Most gun control advocates are talking about stopping sales of future guns going forward, which is much more likely to happen (and has happened in various forms over history.)
How? If that was so easy, why aren't we doing it? What "control" is this you speak of?
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Only criminals would have weapons and the mentally ill are not stupid people they would get it on the black market or make bombs, drive over people with cars, etc etc. At the end of the day we would be no safer.
They lock them up in prisons. We don't do that because we have law to protect innocence. As far as our mental institutions we de-funded them for the people who are diagnosed. Funny how you ignored my question on our countries drug use. like that isn't a leading factor.
Only criminals would have weapons and the mentally ill are not stupid people they would get it on the black market or make bombs, drive over people with cars, etc etc. At the end of the day we would be no safer.
They lock them up in prisons. We don't do that because we have law to protect innocence. As far as our mental institutions we de-funded them for the people who are diagnosed. Funny how you ignored my question on our countries drug use. like that isn't a leading factor.
But they do have violent crime none the less. That is the part these people do not understand.
We have the largest prison population on earth and the highest per capita rate in the OECD. How many more people would we have to lock up to get to "safety"?
Sure. They have it. Just less of it.
Our country is uniquely violent by first world standards and our history, our economy, and our gun laws cannot be disconnected from that.
We have the largest prison population on earth and the highest per capita rate in the OECD. How many more people would we have to lock up to get to "safety"?
That is the point. There is no such thing as safe and secure in our or any other society. It is a lie told be powers that be and spread by the mis informed. There are dangers people in this world, people need to know to stay away from them or learn how to deal with them when they push the matter.
Sure. They have it. Just less of it.
Our country is uniquely violent by first world standards and our history, our economy, and our gun laws cannot be disconnected from that.
Nor the 75% of the worlds drug use but keep ignoring that leading indicator.
The FBI statistics show zero in the whole country in 16 and only on average 4 each year
If ever there was cherry picking to make an "argument" . . . ever been to Philadelphia, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, et al.?
It seems like very few/almost none of these mass shootings are about the drug wars.
This is a violent country always has been.
And we are rearing today’s yutes in a different culture.....than ever before
It’s not the guns it’s the actors.
You are talking about total gun murders. Are we talking total or just mass murders?
If it wasn't a gun it would be running people over in the parking lot when the place closed, or a bomb killing many more, or a knife.
A former FBI guy was on a TV show and said if the insane really wanted to kill lots of people there would use cars or trucks in parking lots or on sidewalks or a bomb. That kind of event really worried law enforcement not necessarily a gun event.
There are alot of "sick" people in this country today.
It's almost impossible to have even a family member declared insane.
Families who have tried end up gettting sued.
A former FBI guy was on a TV show and said if the insane really wanted to kill lots of people there would use cars or trucks in parking lots or on sidewalks or a bomb. That kind of event really worried law enforcement not necessarily a gun event.
There are alot of "sick" people in this country today.
It's almost impossible to have even a family member declared insane.
Families who have tried end up gettting sued.
Swerve,
We got an obsession with guns too. Like no other. Take that loser Robert Bowers. He didn’t have 2 nickels to rub together, a pot to piss in, yet he owned 10 guns. What is the cost, between $400 to upwards $2000 per gun? Wtf?
I know so many “blue collar” white males like this. They continue to amass or collect guns. Why? What is scary if something triggers them, there is an obvious penchance or attraction to guns
It is no longer Muslim terrorists or black inner city thugs we should be afraid of, it is the working class 2nd amendment loving males who get a trigger then show the world the power of their arsenals. It is a psychosis I don’t know how you stop. The infatuation with guns.
and you want to make it, that the only people who have guns are the government who have a history of killing unarmed citizens?
How cool would they look if they walked around clutching blankets and teddy bears instead?
pittdan77
Athletic Director
Maybe the country needs to actually make good on the promises it made to its veterans. Things like education, jobs, and necessary, free medical treatment might have gone a long way on this one.
It was an ex marine who had emotional issues perhaps from his tour in Afghanistan. Did it with a hand gun using in ILLEGAL extended magazine. SO much for banning assault rifles.
Im not a gun advocate but rather a pragmatist. I think its inarguable that if there were no guns in this country, we would not have any of these mass shootings and murders by gun would be non existent. However we are not China, we do have a constitution that allows people to own guns. You also cant put the Genie back in the bottle. Theres no way you can confiscate weapons like ARs.
Everyone is looking for the silver bullet solution and the fact is this is a difficult issue and we will need to attack it on many fronts, some of which may infringe upon our freedoms.
When we had 911, we put TSA agents in airports and made airport travel far more difficult.
For this problem one solution is to have armed bouncers and guards. I know at many churches now they have former military and law enforcement officials with concealed carry licenses attend each service. This is just something we are going to have to get used to ,,,,,,,sadly
Im all for more extensive background checks and preventing people with diagnosed mental conditions, former criminals etc. from having guns.
I think we all need to be more vigilant and report odd behavior to the authorities. Authorities need to investigate whackos posting stuff on the web.
Lets face it we live in an effed up world. We have mothers killing their kids (without guns) Kids strangling their mother, and all sorts of sick crap........why is it surprising that there are loons who want to shoot up a nightclub or a place of worship when there is evil all around us. Im not saying we should not try to do something to minimize it but its a sad state of where the world is today.
Im not a gun advocate but rather a pragmatist. I think its inarguable that if there were no guns in this country, we would not have any of these mass shootings and murders by gun would be non existent. However we are not China, we do have a constitution that allows people to own guns. You also cant put the Genie back in the bottle. Theres no way you can confiscate weapons like ARs.
Everyone is looking for the silver bullet solution and the fact is this is a difficult issue and we will need to attack it on many fronts, some of which may infringe upon our freedoms.
When we had 911, we put TSA agents in airports and made airport travel far more difficult.
For this problem one solution is to have armed bouncers and guards. I know at many churches now they have former military and law enforcement officials with concealed carry licenses attend each service. This is just something we are going to have to get used to ,,,,,,,sadly
Im all for more extensive background checks and preventing people with diagnosed mental conditions, former criminals etc. from having guns.
I think we all need to be more vigilant and report odd behavior to the authorities. Authorities need to investigate whackos posting stuff on the web.
Lets face it we live in an effed up world. We have mothers killing their kids (without guns) Kids strangling their mother, and all sorts of sick crap........why is it surprising that there are loons who want to shoot up a nightclub or a place of worship when there is evil all around us. Im not saying we should not try to do something to minimize it but its a sad state of where the world is today.
Since you were all once talking about the CA shooting, here are somethings to get you back on topic:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...police-officer-opens-fire-California-bar.html
Tattooed trenchcoat-wearing decorated ex-Marine, 28, is identified as gunman who massacred twelve people during student night at country bar: Suspect killed himself after hurling smoke grenades onto dance floor and slaying cop in California
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...police-officer-opens-fire-California-bar.html
Tattooed trenchcoat-wearing decorated ex-Marine, 28, is identified as gunman who massacred twelve people during student night at country bar: Suspect killed himself after hurling smoke grenades onto dance floor and slaying cop in California
- Ian Long, 28, opened fire at Borderline Bar and Grill in Thousand Oaks at 11.20pm on Wednesday night
- He was dressed in all-black and used a legally owned .45 caliber handgun which had an extended magazine
- Witnesses said he also let off smoke grenades inside to confuse the terrified crowds as they ran for their lives
- In April, police and mental health specialists were called to Long's home after neighbors heard crashes coming from inside
- They decided he was not qualified to be committed involuntarily and left him at home with his mother
- Neighbors told DailyMail.com on Thursday that she lived 'in fear' he was going to harm himself
- Long served in the Marines for five years between 2008 and 2013 during which time he was given 10 medals and toured Afghanistan
- After leaving the Marines, he spent three years studying athletic training at California State University Northridge but he dropped out in 2016
- A college roommate of his said he was 'mean', a 'loner' and would often dance in their garage alone
- He killed himself on Wednesday in an office in the bar after killing 11 patrons and a sheriff's sergeant who responded
Mrs Buffett and I take a number of NRA shooting courses each year.
When you say you don't shoot to kill that could be misleading for those on this site who don't understand firearms.
Don’t Shoot to Wound—Why We Are Taught to Shoot Until the Threat Stops
Shooting center mass: Shooting to kill or to stop?
Any firearms course including police training teaches the shooter to shoot center mass to stop the threat.
Guess what thats where all the bodies vitals are so it will most likely result in a dead attacker.
Don't give the uninformed the impression someone should try to hit a leg or arm when defending themselves. That's almost impossible even for police or experts when under attack.
If you know any police officiers they will tell you if their choice is to use a gun they are shooting center mass to stop the attacker.
They will also tell you if you choose to use a firearm to defend yourself do not shoot to wound someone shoot center mass stop the threat!
"it's five o'clock somewhere"
Signed: Mr Buffett
Go PITT & CSU Rams!
I think you can more specific regarding the white males...they are almost always millennials, and maybe whatever generation comes after them.
Yup theres this fallacy that cops can or are trained to shoot the gun out of the hand of the perp....they are taught exactly as you say and they dont just fire of one bullet.....they keep shooting untl the perp goes down
Sure. They have it. Just less of it.
Our country is uniquely violent by first world standards and our history, our economy, and our gun laws cannot be disconnected from that.
And Japan is 0.28 by the way...so whoever said it was astronomical in Japan in England was wrong
Yep, there's a law in California that didn't stop a bad guy from doing something bad.
Imagine that.
A
anon_vmuicqnzlyp3u
Guest
Umm...yes he would. I suppose under your logic if someone gets a DUI and kills somebody its the cars fault so take everyone's car. How about personal accountability. It wasn't the gun it was the shooter
Very true. I did not explain that well. Thank you for clarifying. Yes you shoot center of mass to stop not kill. If the bad guy dies, then it is what it is, but the law abiding citizen is shooting COM to stop. My argument was "we" law abiding gun owners, do not kill the bad guy just to chalk it up as a win. If we brandish the gun and the bad guy runs a way that is a win for the law abiding. If you must engage and 1 hit stops the bad guys aggression but doesn't kill him, that is still a win for the good guys. This guy made it sound like because there were no bad dead guys that there were no wins for the good guys.
I think the blue collar male comment is way off base.
I took the time to post this to give you an idea of how other people live in PA. Other people includes white collar, blue collar, men and women in PA.
If you live where we live in Eastern PA guns are in almost every household ( white collar/blue collar).
90% of households ( white collar, blue collar,single moms, single people, etc) have guns and around 75% have a license to carry a firearm and most do.
There are 10 shooting ranges within 5 square miles of where we live.
All of the ranges are packed most of the day.
Wednesday is pistol shooting league night and all leagues are full.
Guess what the ladies league is full with a waiting list.
The current winner in the September shoot-off is a local female attorney.
She doesn't look like a blue collar male to me. She also shoots trap /skeet, and owns many guns including a few AR-15's.
The female attorney is in Mrs Buffett's pistol league, we've gone shooting and hunting with her often.
They have a junior pistol leagues too?? Surprised. Young boys and girls shoot in competition.
The NRA courses at the clubs are always booked full.
Mrs Buffett and I were at the local Army Navy store buying targets and ammo when we ran into the principal of the local HS.
He and his wife were there with their twin daughters who just turned 21 and were purchasing their first handguns of their own. They also applied for and were granted a license to carry a firearm in PA.
The family are regular shooters at one of the local gun clubs and they own many guns. A HS white collar principal imagine that????
Almost every Sunday one of the clubs hostss an outdoor Block Shoot.
Families, single people, couples, around 200 show up ( they turn many away after 200), buy shoot tickets for 20 shoots according to your ticket number at a target 25 yards away.
Everyone brings their own shotgun and the club provides the shells.
It's a nice relaxing social Sunday afternoon. Free soda, beer, pork barbeque sandwiches, beef barbeque sandwiches, hot dogs, hambugers, and you can buy mixed drinks if you like.
These events happen from May to the end of November.
In fact one of these events is coming up next Sunday.
When our kids were in HS they were allowed to bring their hunting equipment to school locked in the truck of their cars since most kids and faculty went hunting after school if they didn't have sports practice or something else to do.
The football coach had a pick-up with a gun rack and bow rack and always had his compound hunting bow in the rack.
One of our neighbors owns a large company in Eastern PA, is probably worth 20 mill and he and his family all have guns and shoot guns, one neighbor is a doctor same story, another is restaurant owner same again I could go on and on. None of these people are poor blue collar gun crazies!
I was at a Bank of America branch about two weeks ago.
A local owner of a real estate company was at the teller window looking through her pocketbook for her debit car. I was behind her. The bank teller knew her and knew whe carried a firearm. As she started to empty out her pocketbook the teller said do not put your handgun where the security camera's can see it or we'll have the police here. As I said most everyone has a firearm and its a safe place to live!
On yes I do know a few blue collar guys who own guns too.
"it's five o'clock somewhere"
Signed: Mr Buffett
Go PITT & CSU Rams!
Guess what I can't remember a gun incident in our area that involved local people.
The only incidents involved New Yorkers or New Jersey people coming into town to rob people and stuff since its an affluent area.
Most of the criminal interlopers stories didn't have a happy ending for them!
FYI Most of America between NYC, Philly, Pittsburgh, and Hollywood is like what I just described.
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Parkland had an armed Deputy Sheriff onsite and he did nothing when the bullets started flying, four Pittsburgh cops got shot trying to stop the shooter at Tree of Life, a cop was shot and killed last night trying to stop the shooter, having more people with guns isn't the answer. Real life isn't a movie where the good guy can take out a shooter with a clean shot or even hit the actual shooter.
So what's the "right way" to read the 2nd amendment if the well regulated militia isn't there to protect against tyranny? And if it is to protect against threats of government coercion et al., why shouldn't people be able to own the same sort of equipment the federal government or a foreign military has?
Kids are being raised in different cultures in other countries too. They just don't have as many guns to kill each other with.
How about the armed customer last month in Alabama who was leaving a McDonalds and stopped a shooter from killing those in the restaurant?
More good guys with guns is always better. It doesn't prevent all bad things from happening, but it is better than letting bad guys go unchecked.
https://www.cp24.com/world/dad-at-a...h-kids-fatally-shoots-masked-gunman-1.4155000
If the good guy with a gun weren't there, that McDonald massacre would be another thread calling for the public to be disarmed.
More guns = more safety
Gun free zones are killing zones
Both of your examples are bad examples.
Most of these shooters are cowards and select gun free zones or events where people might not have a gun knowing they're the only person likely to have a gun
The Parkland school cop was a coward.
Had he gone in immediately or had he been in the building where he was supposed to be he would have stopped the shooting.
Noone in the Tree of Life had a gun or tried to use one if they had one. If someone had and used their gun the shooting might have been stopped early. Or the shooter would have retreated.
The Pittsburgh cops that were shot were responding to a shooting. They had the hard job of responding not knowing what to expect. Had the shooter been stopped by someone inside the Pittsburgh police wouldn't have had casualties they had.
If randon properly trained school officials ( multiple) have guns and a shooter appears it's likely one of those officials would be able to take out or scare the shooter aware.
If these crazies can't get their hands on a gun how about a car or truck in the parking lot when services or school lets out or a bomb which would kill many more.
People, crazy people are the problem in a society afraid to deal with them!
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