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OT:Bigelow Blvd. between Student Union and Cathedral

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Panthergrowl13

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Nov 11, 2002
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At one time Pitt was interested in closing Bigelow Blvd. between the Student Union (Old Shenley Hotel) and the Cathedral of Learning. Pitt approached the City to discuss the possibility but were turned down by the politicos who are no longer in office.

I think a traffic study was done that concluded that the traffic impact would be minimal.

Since it is a high volume travel zone for students (student safety), Pitt wanted to develop the area into a park like setting providing additional green space in Oakland. Similar to the area developed between the Carnegie Library and Hillman Library.

This section of Bigelow is shut down now for certain events such as Homecoming etc.

I thought it was a good idea at the time and still do.

Should Pitt again approach the City with the original concept.

I see the City now has no problem putting in many "Bike Lanes" which are a far greater impediment to traffic and safety (IMHO).

Thoughts

HAIL TO PITT!!!!
 
Closing that part of Bigelow actually would and has and would improve traffic flow and safety in Oakland. There was a period of time a few years ago when it was closed for some reason and that very thing happened.

The left turns on to Bigelow and the crosswalk between the Union and the Cathedral are a major source of gridlock.
 
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PHATWOOD said:
Closing that part of Bigelow actually would and has and would improve traffic flow and safety in Oakland. There was a period of time a few years ago when it was closed for some reason and that very thing happened.

The left turns on to Bigelow and the crosswalk between the Union and the Cathedral are a major source of gridlock.
Click to expand...

Safety maybe, but traffic flow, no way. They would have to also do something to Bellefield and Bouquet streets to and from forbes.
 
It's always a good idea to connect the largest concentrations of student residences and student union to the core of the main campus where the main campus building, theatre, and chapel sit. It would be a significant campus enhancement.

It is a safety issue. People get struck crossing Bigelow nearly every year. People have been killed, including a former Chancellor's wife. I personally have seen a man in a wheelchair struck by a car trying to cross Bigelow when I was in school.

Nearly every minor and major urban college in America has been able to close similar stretches of streets that bisect their campus. One only has to look across the state at Penn, Drexel, and Temple where local government actually helped to facilitate similar campus upgrades for all of those schools.

Pitt has been trying to close it down since the 1950s. Every time it attempts to do so, it becomes a political issue with local politicians, for their own political expediency, painting Pitt as a neighborhood bully and predator; often using language like Pitt is trying to prevent ambulances carrying the neighborhood elderly from reaching the hospitals. Jim Ferlo, a disgusting individual in my personal observations of his conduct, employed this tactic. Thank goodness he is no longer around, but his protégés remain.

The political climate has little changed, unfortunately, and one can see this in the pages of the PG on a near weekly basis. More recently, the city rebuffed the closure of Schenley Drive between Schenley Plaza and Hillman/Posvar because of possibility of "students overrunning the public plaza." These are the types of ludicrous statements that continue to be tossed around and keep from happening what would be a no-brainer in any other city in the country. It also suggests to Pitt's administration that there are perhaps bigger local fish to fry.

That said, it has been 20 years since that last serious attempt at closing Bigelow (a closure that, btw, was approved by the city planning commission before the Ferlos of the area made it an issue at the 11th hour), and it might be time to test the waters again. The administration can also rely on the experience of the prior administrative players, who I think, as newly minted university leaders at the time, were caught off-guard by the political uproar that it caused.
 
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TIGER-PAUL said:
Safety maybe, but traffic flow, no way. They would have to also do something to Bellefield and Bouquet streets to and from forbes.
Click to expand...

Have you seen how the Bike Lanes on Bigelow next to Soldiers and Sailors restrict traffic
and how dangerous it is with the Cycles intermingling with cars crossing Fifth Ave at rush hour.

Was there a traffic study done before they put in the Bike Lanes. Bike Lanes also cut out one lane of traffic on Panther Hollow Bridge.

I believe a Pitt professor was killed last year while riding a Bike near the Cathedral.

I remember that they did a traffic study on the original concept of closing Bigelow at the Cathedral.

The road was closed for two weeks while the traffic engineers monitored the situation.

I believe the conclusion was that the traffic impact was minimal.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!
 
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Panthergrowl13 said:
Have you seen how the Bike Lanes on Bigelow next to Soldiers and Sailors restrict traffic
and how dangerous it is with the Cycles intermingling with cars crossing Fifth Ave at rush hour.

Was there a traffic study done before they put in the Bike Lanes. Bike Lanes also cut out one lane of traffic on Panther Hollow Bridge.

I remember that they did a traffic study on the original concept of closing Bigelow at the Cathedral.

The road was closed for two weeks while the traffic engineers monitored the situation.

I believe the conclusion was that the traffic impact was minimal.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!
Click to expand...

It was actually closed for 30 days (expanded from the original 2 weeks because of the uproar). Yes, once traffic patterns normalized (ie. people figured out they had to drive one extra block to transition to Forbes or Fifth), there was minimal impact. In fact, traffic densities on surrounding streets (one of the major concerns) was less than anticipated and traffic patterns may have actually shown improvement compared an open Bigelow.

The test closing involved closing Bigelow and eliminating parking along South Bouquet and South Bellefield between Forbes and Fifth in order to create additional traffic lanes. At the time, one of the major opponents of the closure was Oakland Typewriter along Bouquet (which is no longer there). In fact, none of the businesses on that side of the street are there any longer. It is now the small park owned by Pitt that most recently turned into the Digital plaza. The test closure also involved the demolition of the old Burger King site which was turned into the other small parklette and metered Pitt parking lot on Fifth (between DeSoto and Bouquet). That plot was originally earmarked for another dorm, but was instead a surface lot was specifically put in to replace parking that was to be lost along S. Bouquet. Now Pitt is effectively stuck with it being used as a parking lot.

There is zero reason for Bigelow to continue to remain open to traffic. In fact, there are a couple of other streets that should be closed as well (or at least bricked or cobblestoned over). The bike lanes, and the current pedestrian/bike-friendly stance of the current city administration, certainly is a plus on the side of trying to engage in a discussion of closing this street again.

On the flip of this, Pitt has actually given the city land to widen and create streets...a swath of the Cathedral Lawn along Fifth, Sennott St between Meyran and Atwood, and Clemente Drive come to mind.
 
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Wouldn'ta very simple solution be to make a covered pedestrian bridge similar to the one that goes over Forbes and connects to Forbes quad? (Sorry posvar)
 
Way more people get whacked with the bus lane on Forbes than hit on Bigelow. With that said, I agree with closing that off and redeveloping that ares into something unique (i.e., green space done right with some additional flair). But in doing so, they also need to then widen the road and add an extra lane to South Bellefield. That could possible be done by eating the sidewalk on the Heinz Chapel side, adding the lane, re-adding the sidewalk further over, and renovating that entrance to Heinz Chapel. I think thats the only way you do it without really causing traffic issues given those sections are both one ways for Forbes and Fifth.

Frankly, I dont see the city/state throwing funding at the project given the limited benefit.

A potential work-around could be to build an elevated platform overpass above Bigelow that could be equally developed, but just raised above street level....though there are other issues with this approach as well.
 
ratking17 said:
Wouldn'ta very simple solution be to make a covered pedestrian bridge similar to the one that goes over Forbes and connects to Forbes quad? (Sorry posvar)
Click to expand...

No. While that would only try to address a safety issue, such a solution would only work if it is convenient for pedestrians to actually utilize which is highly unlikely not because you'd have to walk twice as far, or more, in order to gain the elevation to actually cross the street...particularly since it is a small street. What do you connect a bridge to? You can't attach it to historic structures like the Union or Cathedral and obliterate their facades.

Bigelow is a minor road that isn't even necessary, not a major traffic artery like Fifth or Forbes. And a bridge would have no impact and not solve the problem of connecting the campus in a meaningful way like has been done everywhere else in the country.
 
Couldn't it be an arched ramp. High enough for cars to pass under. Then you keep the sidewalk crossing at Forbes and fifth
 
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pittengineer75 said:
Way more people get whacked with the bus lane on Forbes than hit on Bigelow. With that said, I agree with closing that off and redeveloping that ares into something unique (i.e., green space done right with some additional flair). But in doing so, they also need to then widen the road and add an extra lane to South Bellefield. That could possible be done by eating the sidewalk on the Heinz Chapel side, adding the lane, re-adding the sidewalk further over, and renovating that entrance to Heinz Chapel. I think thats the only way you do it without really causing traffic issues given those sections are both one ways for Forbes and Fifth.

Frankly, I dont see the city/state throwing funding at the project given the limited benefit.

A potential work-around could be to build an elevated platform overpass above Bigelow that could be equally developed, but just raised above street level....though there are other issues with this approach as well.
Click to expand...

If there is a bridge to be built, it is across Fifth.

They've already showed you can do it without widening South Bellefield. You just eliminate street parking there creating the extra lane.

Pitt was willing to fund the entire project in the 90s, and that was with city was gouging them on the price of the land of Bigelow.

If anyone has ever been to schools in Philadelphia, you realize how incredibly stupid it is that we are still having this conversation in Pittsburgh. Bigelow is a completely unnecessary minor road that is repeatedly closed throughout the year already, often for multiple days at a time with minimal impact without adding additional lanes to other streets. And that includes during some of the highest traffic times of the entire year: move-in days, homecoming, festivals, etc.
 
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Pitt's chance to close Bigelow will come once the city decides on either Fifth or Forbes for the "rapid" bus transit line and station location. They will most likely need cooperation from Pitt, which is where Pitt tells them (not asks) they are closing Bigelow.
 
ratking17 said:
Couldn't it be an arched ramp. High enough for cars to pass under. Then you keep the sidewalk crossing at Forbes and fifth
Click to expand...

1st, it would have to be ADA compliant these days. I believe ADA guidelines require one foot of ramp for each one inch of rise (~5 degrees rise). You need about a 14 foot clearance over the street. Roughly, that means you 168 feet of ramp before you meet the street. In football terms, that is 56 yards. So, if pedestrians are willing to start up a ramp over half a football field in length before the street actually begins, and then debark 56 yards after the street ends...then you might have something. Otherwise, you are building spiral ramps up to the elevation. See why that is impracticable in that it is highly unlikely to be used by actual pedestrians? Plus, it is likely to be a god awful eyesore in the middle of campus...which is in the middle of a National and local Historic District. You think a structure like that is going to get the approval of the historic review boards involved?
 
HailtoPitt said:
Pitt's chance to close Bigelow will come once the city decides on either Fifth or Forbes for the "rapid" bus transit line and station location. They will most likely need cooperation from Pitt, which is where Pitt tells them (not asks) they are closing Bigelow.
Click to expand...

This is already happening and Pitt and UPMC are already cooperating. UPMC is giving the city a slice of land in front of the former Children's Hospital site to built a BRT station.

Pitt should make closing Bigelow a condition of getting a single dime in PILOT though.
 
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Paco thanks for the knowledge. So really the only solution is close the road.
 
Hero of the Oppressed said:
Mayor Peduto is a Nitter. He is too busy making comedy visits to WDVE. City of Pittsburgh political leaders are not interested
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O'Connor was the best bet to get it done. He was fairly Pitt friendly. In fact, his untimely death is one of the reasons it took so long to get the Robinson Court site because Ravenstahl was tied into the developer that wanted it for mixed income housing projects..

Ravensthal was downright hostile to Pitt. Peduto is an improvement on that front, no matter what you think of him.
 
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ratking17 said:
Paco thanks for the knowledge. So really the only solution is close the road.
Click to expand...

Even if it wasn't a safety hazard, it still should be closed. Again, closing streets in the middle of urban campuses like Pitt, not to mention a major pedestrian crossing, has been done nearly everywhere else such schools exist.

This will always be a major pet peeve of mine, because it should have been done decades ago, still can be done, has been done everywhere else, and there really is only one reason it hasn't been done and it serves as a continuous reminder of the roadblocks that are continually thrown up at arguably the city's most important institution.
 
Yet friendly to strippers.


CrazyPaco said:
O'Connor was the best bet to get it done. He was fairly Pitt friendly. In fact, his untimely death is one of the reasons it took so long to get the Robinson Court site because Ravenstahl was tied into the developer that wanted it for mixed income housing projects..

Ravensthal was downright hostile to Pitt. Peduto is an improvement on that front, no matter what you think of him.
Click to expand...
 
CrazyPaco said:
No. While that would only try to address a safety issue, such a solution would only work if it is convenient for pedestrians to actually utilize which is highly unlikely not because you'd have to walk twice as far, or more, in order to gain the elevation to actually cross the street...particularly since it is a small street. What do you connect a bridge to? You can't attach it to historic structures like the Union or Cathedral and obliterate their facades.

Bigelow is a minor road that isn't even necessary, not a major traffic artery like Fifth or Forbes. And a bridge would have no impact and not solve the problem of connecting the campus in a meaningful way like has been done everywhere else in the country.
Click to expand...
But Bigelow has been used as a major traffic artery for many years. Try driving it sometime and see how much it is used. And what about the big elephant in the room-parking in Oakland ?? It gets worse every year and people want to eliminate parking spaces ??
 
CrazyPaco said:
It was actually closed for 30 days (expanded from the original 2 weeks because of the uproar). Yes, once traffic patterns normalized (ie. people figured out they had to drive one extra block to transition to Forbes or Fifth), there was minimal impact. In fact, traffic densities on surrounding streets (one of the major concerns) was less than anticipated and traffic patterns may have actually shown improvement compared an open Bigelow.

The test closing involved closing Bigelow and eliminating parking along South Bouquet and South Bellefield between Forbes and Fifth in order to create additional traffic lanes. At the time, one of the major opponents of the closure was Oakland Typewriter along Bouquet (which is no longer there). In fact, none of the businesses on that side of the street are there any longer. It is now the small park owned by Pitt that most recently turned into the Digital plaza. The test closure also involved the demolition of the old Burger King site which was turned into the other small parklette and metered Pitt parking lot on Fifth (between DeSoto and Bouquet). That plot was originally earmarked for another dorm, but was instead a surface lot was specifically put in to replace parking that was to be lost along S. Bouquet. Now Pitt is effectively stuck with it being used as a parking lot.

There is zero reason for Bigelow to continue to remain open to traffic. In fact, there are a couple of other streets that should be closed as well (or at least bricked or cobblestoned over). The bike lanes, and the current pedestrian/bike-friendly stance of the current city administration, certainly is a plus on the side of trying to engage in a discussion of closing this street again.

On the flip of this, Pitt has actually given the city land to widen and create streets...a swath of the Cathedral Lawn along Fifth, Sennott St between Meyran and Atwood, and Clemente Drive come to mind.
Click to expand...

Thanks Paco

I knew you would know the details of the extensive traffic study which was done supporting the closure of Bigelow.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!
 
pittengineer75 said:
Way more people get whacked with the bus lane on Forbes than hit on Bigelow. With that said, I agree with closing that off and redeveloping that ares into something unique (i.e., green space done right with some additional flair). But in doing so, they also need to then widen the road and add an extra lane to South Bellefield. That could possible be done by eating the sidewalk on the Heinz Chapel side, adding the lane, re-adding the sidewalk further over, and renovating that entrance to Heinz Chapel. I think thats the only way you do it without really causing traffic issues given those sections are both one ways for Forbes and Fifth.

Frankly, I dont see the city/state throwing funding at the project given the limited benefit.

A potential work-around could be to build an elevated platform overpass above Bigelow that could be equally developed, but just raised above street level....though there are other issues with this approach as well.
Click to expand...


Students would continue to walk across the street rather than inconvenience themselves going over the walkway.

Case in point (older panthers) Pitt students would walk from the Cathedral to Clapp Hall (shortest distance)
and cut through the hedges.

Frequent usage created a dirt path and still Pitt was trying to keep students from using it.

They refused to pave it but after several years Pitt relented and paved (stone blocks) that stretch because they knew the students would not relent using it.

HAIL TO PITT!!!
 
If the Pitt student were in "activist mode", they'd set-up several hundred chairs on that roadway and sit there, blocking the road - and demanding that the road be dozed and developed into a green area.

But will it happen? Nah.
 
It was actually closed in 96 for 60? days for the study. I never heard of the results. Ferlo et al fought against even having a temporary closure study. I think he sued? It was all land grab, land grab, green space, green space.


"This is nothing more than a land grab," Ferlo told the University Times. "The Syria Mosque site was worth $10 million to the University and the Bigelow Boulevard land mass is equal to, if not bigger than, the Syria Mosque site." According to Ferlo, even the temporary closing of Bigelow would be devastating to Oakland for a number of reasons, starting with the fact that 15,000 vehicles a day, including 93 buses, use the one-block stretch between Fifth and Forbes.

Ferlo said that all of those vehicles would have to be rerouted to "unsafe secondary streets" such as Bouquet Street, Bellefield Avenue, Craig Street and Dithridge Street. "That alone should make this an absolutely ridiculous proposal," he said.

Ferlo again was the most vocal opponent of the test. He questioned the legality of the move, read letters from several people, including Allegheny County Commissioner Larry Dunn, opposing it and accused the Murphy administration of marching "like storm troopers with the University" on the issue.

When Ferlo complained that an "academic idiot" proposed the plan, he was reprimanded by Council member Riccardi who told him there was "no need for public insults." Ferlo apologized.

Hertzberg also criticized Ferlo for saying that the opinions of Pitt students don't matter because they are "here today and gone tomorrow." Hertzberg noted that keeping young people from moving away is one of the biggest problems facing the region, yet Ferlo was attacking "the largest contingent of young people in the city who are thinking about where to go."
http://www.utimes.pitt.edu/?p=3913
 
TIGER-PAUL said:
It was actually closed in 96 for 60? days for the study. I never heard of the results. Ferlo et al fought against even having a temporary closure study. I think he sued? It was all land grab, land grab, green space, green space.


"This is nothing more than a land grab," Ferlo told the University Times. "The Syria Mosque site was worth $10 million to the University and the Bigelow Boulevard land mass is equal to, if not bigger than, the Syria Mosque site." According to Ferlo, even the temporary closing of Bigelow would be devastating to Oakland for a number of reasons, starting with the fact that 15,000 vehicles a day, including 93 buses, use the one-block stretch between Fifth and Forbes.

Ferlo said that all of those vehicles would have to be rerouted to "unsafe secondary streets" such as Bouquet Street, Bellefield Avenue, Craig Street and Dithridge Street. "That alone should make this an absolutely ridiculous proposal," he said.

Ferlo again was the most vocal opponent of the test. He questioned the legality of the move, read letters from several people, including Allegheny County Commissioner Larry Dunn, opposing it and accused the Murphy administration of marching "like storm troopers with the University" on the issue.

When Ferlo complained that an "academic idiot" proposed the plan, he was reprimanded by Council member Riccardi who told him there was "no need for public insults." Ferlo apologized.

Hertzberg also criticized Ferlo for saying that the opinions of Pitt students don't matter because they are "here today and gone tomorrow." Hertzberg noted that keeping young people from moving away is one of the biggest problems facing the region, yet Ferlo was attacking "the largest contingent of young people in the city who are thinking about where to go."
http://www.utimes.pitt.edu/?p=3913
Click to expand...

The closure length was changed...I think they cut the closure time in half (30 days) because of his faux outrage, which actually would be less accurate for the result because it doesn't give as much time for the traffic patterns to adjust. Personally, I don't live in Oakland anymore but I don't recall public buses ever using Bigelow, only Pitt buses and shuttles, but I can be wrong. Fact didn't matter for him if the ends for him justified the means.

I was at the public hearing in the Frick School where the Pitt SGB President present a very articulate case for the closure.

When he finished, Ferlo, who clearly wasn't giving him the respect of any of his attention during his allotted talking time, dismissively responded out loud to the packed meeting hall: "Now run along and get an ice cream cone."

He was a major ass and I couldn't believe how public figure like that would conduct himself in such a manner.

Again, this plan and test closure was in Pitt's facilities master plan that was approved by the City Planning Commission well in advance. It was well known to all public officials, including Ferlo. Only a day or two before the originally scheduled test closure, when Pitt had placed the temporary barriers near the streets, did Ferlo decide to bring the news cameras in and raise a stink about it because he saw an opportunity to interject himself in the most dramatic way possible and position himself as a defender of the downtrodden. He wasn't even a council member representing the Oakland neighborhood.

What is missing in the Ferlo talking points about the Syria Mosque is that Pitt didn't buy it, yet Pitt was trying to acquire it to save it and refurbish along the lines of what they did for the Masonic Temple. He partly made a name for himself trying to lead the historic preservation efforts to keep it from being bulldozed, and he and Pitt were actually on the same side on that one. But that didn't fit his narrative.
 
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Panthergrowl13 said:
At one time Pitt was interested in closing Bigelow Blvd. between the Student Union (Old Shenley Hotel) and the Cathedral of Learning. Pitt approached the City to discuss the possibility but were turned down by the politicos who are no longer in office.

I think a traffic study was done that concluded that the traffic impact would be minimal.

Since it is a high volume travel zone for students (student safety), Pitt wanted to develop the area into a park like setting providing additional green space in Oakland. Similar to the area developed between the Carnegie Library and Hillman Library.

This section of Bigelow is shut down now for certain events such as Homecoming etc.

I thought it was a good idea at the time and still do.

Should Pitt again approach the City with the original concept.

I see the City now has no problem putting in many "Bike Lanes" which are a far greater impediment to traffic and safety (IMHO).

Thoughts

HAIL TO PITT!!!!
Click to expand...
Oakland , what a dump!
Always was always will be.
Anything Pitt does is just putting lipstick on a pig.
Then there is always the Pgh politician and that hot mess

Should have moved the whole thing to Greensburg campus years ago...
 
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TIGER-PAUL said:
Safety maybe, but traffic flow, no way. They would have to also do something to Bellefield and Bouquet streets to and from forbes.
Click to expand...


Except, when it was closed a few years back, it improved traffic flow.....so, there's that.
 
paulbl99 said:
Oakland , what a dump!
Always was always will be.
Anything Pitt does is just putting lipstick on a pig.
Then there is always the Pgh politician and that hot mess

Should have moved the whole thing to Greensburg campus years ago...
Click to expand...
I've always thought Oakland was a nice area when our kids went to PITT 04-10. We visited and loved the area understanding PITT is in a "city" setting. I agree with PantherParrotthead you need to get out more and visit U's in dump cities. The PITT environment is really nice and safe compared to most others.
Our kids grew us in a rural "cornfield" place in PA so Oakland gave the kids an idea what a big city is like without having to worry about the perils of a big, ugly, dangerous city.
 
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