OT: Could Big East add Duquesne one day?

[HailToPitt725]

Half-serious question, at the risk of being mentioned in the same sentence as SMF.

Let’s say Dambrot wins a A10 title or two at Duquesne and the Dukes become an annual NCAAT team. They’re also in the midst of completely overhauling their basketball facilities & are right next door to PPG Paints Arena in the event they need a larger venue.

In this scenario, would the Big East consider adding Duquesne in order to return to the Pittsburgh market? They’re at 11 schools with the addition of UConn and DUQ would fit their (typical) criteria:

- Good basketball program
- Private Catholic school
- Located in a major northeast city/television market

If not, is there another school that they might look to add to reach 12 members? Do they add anyone at all? What say you?

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

St. Louis, St. Joe's, or Gonzaga seem more likely? Not sure they're in any rush to expand though.

 

[CrazyPaco]

St. Louis, St. Joe's, or Gonzaga seem more likely? Not sure they're in any rush to expand though.

Villanova would attempt to keep St. Joe's out, just like they pushed to keep Temple out when they were a in the football conference.

Gonzaga doesn't make geographic sense.

St. Louis could be a good fit if they're looking for another midwestern school. Dayton, maybe, but they geographically overlap with Xavier.

I think Duquesne would fit geographically, but their commitment, competitiveness, and fan base is too much of a risk and I don't know if the BE would want a program that would likely be perceived as second fiddle to the ACC in their home region. Duquesne would have to make great strides in their regular competitiveness and attendance to merit any serious look, IMO.

My guess would be on St. Louis if they were going to add another.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

I’ve actually heard Dave Harper is working on this... I’m not joking.

 

[CrazyPaco]

I’ve actually heard Dave Harper is working on this... I’m not joking.

I'm sure he is. I'm sure multiple schools are.

 

[ameoba defense]

Before UConn came back, this might have been a long term possibility. The schools in the BE have loved the ability to play a round robin schedule. This was very important for the new schools to become accepted by the C7. There was always discussion about adding one or two schools, but there were no obvious adds. As has been pointed out, duplication of markets is, and always has been a non starter. The schools that were most attractive basketball-wise, were either too far (Gonzaga), or in small markets (VCU, Dayton). Duquesne, and St. Louis are the best fits from an institutional, and market size sense, but the basketball has either been uninspiring (St. Louis), or downright awful (Duquesne). The one worry the BE schools have had is that ratings on FS1 have not been great. There has always been the fear that Fox would tell them to add some markets to improve ratings. UConn coming back buys them some time to improve the ratings. Also, had Duquesne and St. Louis both rose to the top of the A 10 and stayed there, bringing them in as a pair would have worked well before UConn came back. St. Louis in the west, and Duquesne in the east. I don't think they would want 13 members, and if they add a 12th team, St. Louis is a much better fit if you want to have divisions, as they are closer to all of the western schools than Duquesne except for Xavier. Bottom line, not likely to happen, but of course if Duquesne really began to dominate the A 10, over an extended period (5-6 years), and became a fixture in the rankings, and NCAA Tournament, I'm sure the BE would then take a very hard look at adding them.
Duquesne joining the BE would be a negative for Pitt, as it would reestablish Duquesne as a major program. The A 10 is a good league, but no threat to a team in the ACC. Duquesne would have to become dominant in the A 10, while Pitt was awful in the ACC for fans to start showing up at Palumbo instead of the Pete. If they're in the BE, it's not nearly so clear cut. Pitt would have the edge, but if they weren't winning, and Duquesne was, it would quickly become a problem.

 

[TheLogicalTake]

Duquesne? Not a chance.

I think a day will come where Syracuse returns to the Big East. Their soul is in the league and, despite their rich FB history, they’re a basketball school at heart. Outside of them, I can’t see the Big East adding anyone else. I would love to see Pitt make that move first, but a lot would have to change in the CFB landscape to make that feasible because football is always going to drive the bus here

 

[ameoba defense]

Duquesne? Not a chance.

I think a day will come where Syracuse returns to the Big East. Their soul is in the league and, despite their rich FB history, they’re a basketball school at heart. Outside of them, I can’t see the Big East adding anyone else. I would love to see Pitt make that move first, but a lot would have to change in the CFB landscape to make that feasible because football is always going to drive the bus here

Cuse is never leaving the ACC to go to the BE. They'd need to drop football first. Ain't gonna happen. The BE doesn't need any more teams. Everyone can't win. If UConn comes close to returning to what they were before, some BE team(s) will learn a very hard lesson. You can't have all winning teams. Someone has to take those league losses. Two fewer ooc games, replaced by losses to UConn. One or two more schools are going to fall to the bottom to join DePaul, and they won't be happy. You would think that PC and Seton Hall know how awful it is to be in a league with too many good teams. Escaping the old BE was the best thing that ever happened to them. I guess the best case scenario would be if 4-5 teams would rotate, taking turns at the bottom, only staying down a few years before rising back up, but there's no guarantee that it'll work that way. Once you fall to the bottom, it's pretty easy to get stuck there. It sucks, even if it's for a short time, We know!!!

 

[4Mark_Marty]

Half-serious question, at the risk of being mentioned in the same sentence as SMF.

Let’s say Dambrot wins a A10 title or two at Duquesne and the Dukes become an annual NCAAT team. They’re also in the midst of completely overhauling their basketball facilities & are right next door to PPG Paints Arena in the event they need a larger venue.

In this scenario, would the Big East consider adding Duquesne in order to return to the Pittsburgh market? They’re at 11 schools with the addition of UConn and DUQ would fit their (typical) criteria:

- Good basketball program
- Private Catholic school
- Located in a major northeast city/television market

If not, is there another school that they might look to add to reach 12 members? Do they add anyone at all? What say you?

Hell No

 

[4Mark_Marty]

Duquesne? Not a chance.

I think a day will come where Syracuse returns to the Big East. Their soul is in the league and, despite their rich FB history, they’re a basketball school at heart. Outside of them, I can’t see the Big East adding anyone else. I would love to see Pitt make that move first, but a lot would have to change in the CFB landscape to make that feasible because football is always going to drive the bus here

Duquesne? Not a chance.

I think a day will come where Syracuse returns to the Big East. Their soul is in the league and, despite their rich FB history, they’re a basketball school at heart. Outside of them, I can’t see the Big East adding anyone else. I would love to see Pitt make that move first, but a lot would have to change in the CFB landscape to make that feasible because football is always going to drive the bus here

Eff that move x 100

 

[cease10]

I don't see the Big East being in a rush to add any additional schools right now.

Duquesne and the Pittsburgh market doesn't really add anything to the Big East. Duquesne would need a 10yr run like Butler in order to be relevant in basketball.

Bringing back UCONN was a no brainer for the BE.

Nova has 2 national championships in recent yrs. The conference is in good shape. They would be in even better shape if Georgetown and St. John's can become relevant again.

 

[TheLogicalTake]

Eff that move x 100

Watch what happens after Boeheim. Their recruiting has already dipped (I doubt Dior Johnson takes a step on their campus). Football pays the bills but that’s a basketball school. If a window opens that makes sense, they’ll go back

I don't see the Big East being in a rush to add any additional schools right now.

Duquesne and the Pittsburgh market doesn't really add anything to the Big East. Duquesne would need a 10yr run like Butler in order to be relevant in basketball.

Bringing back UCONN was a no brainer for the BE.

Nova has 2 national championships in recent yrs. The conference is in good shape. They would be in even better shape if Georgetown and St. John's can become relevant again.

They’re going to be very selective. For my money, Ackerman is the best commissioner going. She’s done a heck of a job there. Not many conferences are set up better in a post-COVID world than the Big East

 

[TheSpecialSauce]

There is about a 25 million dollar difference between what the ACC and Big East pay their schools. There is no chance anyone leaves the ACC for the Big East. NONE..NADA...ZIP.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Duquesne? Not a chance.

I think a day will come where Syracuse returns to the Big East. Their soul is in the league and, despite their rich FB history, they’re a basketball school at heart. Outside of them, I can’t see the Big East adding anyone else. I would love to see Pitt make that move first, but a lot would have to change in the CFB landscape to make that feasible because football is always going to drive the bus here

Barring a major change to the college athletic landscape, like football disappearing as a sport, all-out professionalization, or a football power broker break away from the NCAA that leaves them abandoned, there is zero chance 'Cuse or anyone else leaves the ACC for the BE.

 

[TheLogicalTake]

Barring a major change to the college athletic landscape, like football disappearing as a sport, all-out professionalization, or a football power broker break away from the NCAA that leaves them abandoned, there is zero chance 'Cuse or anyone else leaves the ACC for the BE.

Whether the SEC comes looking for total dominance or the B12 comes looking for survival, someone is going to poach Clemson or FSU. When that happens, things are going to get interesting

 

[CrazyPaco]

There is about a 25 million dollar difference between what the ACC and Big East pay their schools. There is no chance anyone leaves the ACC for the Big East. NONE..NADA...ZIP.

That doesn't even account for the ACC Network which is going to grow that gap.

 

[TheLogicalTake]

That doesn't even account for the ACC Network which is going to grow that gap.

You guys are absolutely correct, currently. If/when there’s a redistribution of power, things will look much different

 

[CrazyPaco]

Whether the SEC comes looking for total dominance or the B12 comes looking for survival, someone is going to poach Clemson or FSU. When that happens, things are going to get interesting

The B12 has no chance with Clemson or FSU. Really, they have no chance with anyone that is currently in a P5 conference.

The SEC won't take those schools because of UF and USC. Your scenario is very unlikely in the current environment and zero chance of happening with the current contractual obligations that extend to 2036.

 

[CrazyPaco]

You guys are absolutely correct, currently. If/when there’s a redistribution of power, things will look much different

No one can predict what upheaval may bring. There are many hypothetical scenarios that can completely restructure college athletics and those fantasy armageddons are a lot more feasible now than they were just 10 years ago. But in those scenarios, who knows what would happen. Too many unpredictable variables at play.

 

[TheLogicalTake]

No one can predict what upheaval may bring. There are many hypothetical scenarios that can completely restructure college athletics and those are a lot more feasible now than they were just 10 years ago. But in those scenarios, who knows what would happen.

Agreed. Lots up in the air, but i see a region based approach upcoming, especially in the wake of the virus. There’s just no sense in sending soccer and swim teams all over the map in sports that generate no revenue. We’re going to see a move to keeping non-revenue sports, those that survive, in a cost reduced schedule that keeps them in geographically friendly space.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Agreed. Lots up in the air, but i see a region based approach upcoming, especially in the wake of the virus. There’s just no sense in sending soccer and swim teams all over the map in sports that generate no revenue. We’re going to see a move to keeping non-revenue sports, those that survive, in a cost reduced schedule that keeps them in geographically friendly space.

Yes, in the short term for non-revenue sports this is happening, in mid-major and low-major conferences. I don't see this changing over the long term, and probably not too much in the P5 conferences even short term. In the P5, largely I think the cuts will be in things most won't even notice, like T&F teams not attending a mid-season overnight invite 5 states over. Every sport will feel it a little differently.

The non-revenue sports that have been cut were already largely on the chopping block and are happening at schools with substantially less athletic revenue than the P5 where their programs were highly subsidized by student tuition and fees. Most schools are going to try to weather this hoping it is a one year blip.

 

[4Mark_Marty]

Watch what happens after Boeheim. Their recruiting has already dipped (I doubt Dior Johnson takes a step on their campus). Football pays the bills but that’s a basketball school. If a window opens that makes sense, they’ll go back



They’re going to be very selective. For my money, Ackerman is the best commissioner going. She’s done a heck of a job there. Not many conferences are set up better in a post-COVID world than the Big East

They may but I hope we never move to a Big East conference

 

[Voice of Danno]

BE not expanding. They were able to add UConn and still receive the same amount from Fox. If they add one more. Their share will be diluted. The BE Tournament is the 2nd highest attended tournament behind the Big 12 without UConn. So a 12th team won't add any additional revenue to the league. Fox contract is up in 5 years and both parties are very happy with it.

 

[ameoba defense]

The idea of Cuse leaving for the BE is crazy. UConn would leave the BE today, and happily pay any exit fees required if the ACC offered them a spot.

 

[wbrpanther]

Watch what happens after Boeheim. Their recruiting has already dipped (I doubt Dior Johnson takes a step on their campus). Football pays the bills but that’s a basketball school. If a window opens that makes sense, they’ll go back



They’re going to be very selective. For my money, Ackerman is the best commissioner going. She’s done a heck of a job there. Not many conferences are set up better in a post-COVID world than the Big East

That doesn't seem "logical" to me, excuse the pun. That wouldn't make sense for either sport. football for obvious reasons. And if you now consider yourself a basketball school, why in the world would you leave arguably the best basketball conference in the country [most years]. If for no other reason there would be a huge cash drop-off.

 

[TheLogicalTake]

That doesn't seem "logical" to me, excuse the pun. That wouldn't make sense for either sport. football for obvious reasons. And if you now consider yourself a basketball school, why in the world would you leave arguably the best basketball conference in the country [most years]. If for no other reason there would be a huge cash drop-off.

The ACC is a great league but the days of being able to claim to be the absolute best are gone. Way too much parity for any league to stake that claim.

Football drives the bus for now but I don’t know if that will always be the case. The only two leagues, football-wise, that I would feel safe in are the B10 and SEC. The other 3 P5’s are going to see movement at some point

 

[CrazyPaco]

The ACC is a great league but the date of being able to claim to be the absolute best are gone. Way too much parity for any league to stake that claim.

Football drives the bus for now but I don’t know if that will always be the case. The only two leagues, football-wise, that I would feel safe in are the B10 and SEC. The other 3 P5’s are going to see movement at some point

Who is the annual best has always been cyclical, and conferences go through peaks and valleys, but in hoops, the ACC easily has the best collection of traditional blue blood powers and solid depth throughout its ranks. It will always be in the annual conversation of the best conference.

Barring some dramatic upheaval, I think we are going to see a lot less movement among conference membership than you expect.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

There is about a 25 million dollar difference between what the ACC and Big East pay their schools. There is no chance anyone leaves the ACC for the Big East. NONE..NADA...ZIP.

And that gap is going to continue to get larger and larger every year.

 

[joeydavid]

The only scenario where there is a major upheaval is if the the 5 power conferences band together and form a league outside of the NCAA. That could circumvent the current GOR.

That would require a revenue sharing arrangement like the NFL. With revenue sharing teams like PedSt, Rutgers and MD could be traded to the northeast division for a geographical realignment.

The biggest challenge will be getting the "western" division's revenue more on par with everyone else.

 

[ThePanthers]

Yes, in the short term for non-revenue sports this is happening, in mid-major and low-major conferences. I don't see this changing over the long term, and probably not too much in the P5 conferences even short term. In the P5, largely I think the cuts will be in things most won't even notice, like T&F teams not attending a mid-season overnight invite 5 states over. Every sport will feel it a little differently.

The non-revenue sports that have been cut were already largely on the chopping block and are happening at schools with substantially less athletic revenue than the P5 where their programs were highly subsidized by student tuition and fees. Most schools are going to try to weather this hoping it is a one year blip.

On top of that, the conference networks rely heavily on the Olympic sports to fill programming. Can't see any p5 going to a regional model.

 

[CrazyPaco]

The only scenario where there is a major upheaval is if the the 5 power conferences band together and form a league outside of the NCAA. That could circumvent the current GOR.

That would require a revenue sharing arrangement like the NFL. With revenue sharing teams like PedSt, Rutgers and MD could be traded to the northeast division for a geographical realignment.

The biggest challenge will be getting the "western" division's revenue more on par with everyone else.

I could see some schools deciding to just go full pro for football and/or men's basketball and others not wanting that and going their own way, led by Notre Dame which has stated that it won't go the full professional route. In such a scenario, you'd essentially have some schools creating a college professional league outside the NCAA and other schools staying in an NCAA-like system that tries to retain some form (or reversion to) amateurism.

As a not perfect example where this sort of happened already, BYU club men's soccer purchased a franchise in the Premier Development League where it competed from 2003 to 2017 outside of college regulatory bodies. They've returned to a college club level since.

Schools that chose to go to a "professional" league could essentially split their football programs off into an affiliated but legally independent for-profit corporation that technically "licenses" the use of the university's marks and "rents" the school's athletic facilities. Such "pro" schools could keep their other "non-pro" sports in the whatever is left of the NCAA. In that hypothetical, the pro schools wouldn't technically sponsor football, the players wouldn't even need to be students, and there would be no Title IX to worry about.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

They would have to become Xavier, Butler, or Creighton. And that level of sustained winning with exuberant fanbases is just so unlikely.

More likely candidates:

VCU (now that they are taking public schools)
Davidson (Charlotte market)
Charlotte
Saint Louis (I felt they should have taken them over Creighton and I still do)
Detroit (Catholic school, big city, long history of sucking though)
Siena (Catholic school, upstate market)

I mean I could go on and on. If we are sitting here 10 years from now and Duquesne has gone to 8 NCAA Tournaments with 3 Sweet 16s, then at that point, I'd say they have a shot. But its more likely Pitt Basketball wins a National Championship in the next 10 years than that.

 

[ameoba defense]

They would have to become Xavier, Butler, or Creighton. And that level of sustained winning with exuberant fanbases is just so unlikely.

More likely candidates:

VCU (now that they are taking public schools)
Davidson (Charlotte market)
Charlotte
Saint Louis (I felt they should have taken them over Creighton and I still do)
Detroit (Catholic school, big city, long history of sucking though)
Siena (Catholic school, upstate market)

I mean I could go on and on. If we are sitting here 10 years from now and Duquesne has gone to 8 NCAA Tournaments with 3 Sweet 16s, then at that point, I'd say they have a shot. But its more likely Pitt Basketball wins a National Championship in the next 10 years than that.

That's about what it would take to really get them on the BE radar, but it still likely wouldn't be enough because it's highly unlikely that the BE will be taking any of those schools, because they really don't need more members. Unlike the era when the BE was getting raided, and need to add teams, they're stable now. The only possible exit, UConn to a P5, is even more unlikely that Duquesne returning to what they were 50 years ago. The only other way I can see the BE wanting to add teams would be if they began to really drop off. I don't see it happening any time soon, but, the BE is in reality, a mid major league. It's just a very very good mid major league at the moment. Same types of schools that are in the A 10, and West Coast Conference. There's always a chance that long term, the money difference will begin to erode their success. Won't be in the near future though.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

the BE is in reality, a mid major league.

Using the Pomeroy numbers, over the last five seasons the Big East has been the third best league four times and the fifth best league the other time. If that makes them a mid-major league, what does that make the SEC (one fourth, two fifths, two sixths) or the PAC12 (one fifth, three sixths and a seventh)?

On a whole, the teams in the A10 and the WCC would die to be as good as the teams in the Big East are.

 

[ameoba defense]

Using the Pomeroy numbers, over the last five seasons the Big East has been the third best league four times and the fifth best league the other time. If that makes them a mid-major league, what does that make the SEC (one fourth, two fifths, two sixths) or the PAC12 (one fifth, three sixths and a seventh)?

On a whole, the teams in the A10 and the WCC would die to be as good as the teams in the Big East are.

Did you read the entire post? I said they were a very very good league. The mid major thing was pointing out that from an institutional standpoint, that's what they are. They are a league of mostly private Catholic schools that don't play football, very much like those other two. The BE is great at hoops, but they are not like the P5, big football playing conferences of mostly public schools. You're taking mid major to mean they suck. They don't suck, actually, the other two don't suck either, they're just not as good as the top leagues. I just wonder if long term, a league of small schools can keep up with the big dogs. Especially considering how much the P5 has emasculated the NCAA. Who is going to look out for their interests?

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Did you read the entire post? I said they were a very very good league. The mid major thing was pointing out that from an institutional standpoint, that's what they are.

Yeah, I did read the whole post. I'm pointing out the fact that it doesn't make any difference on the court, where it counts, what their "institutional standpoint" is.

The Big East schools are actually making money at basketball, and most of them don't have the cash-suck that small time big time football teams do (see the article that recruits linked about UConn if you don't understand what I mean). Would you rather be Temple, a school losing money hand over fist in football, or Villanova going forward? Would you rather be Houston, another school that's losing money on football like crazy, or Creighton going forward? The lack of big time money losing football combined with the money that they make on basketball is exactly why the Big East schools are better positioned than any of the actual mid-major conferences.

Big East basketball isn't mid-major in any sense of the word.