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OT: How do you fix the Penguins?

How many chances does a guy get? It has been three years since Sully had this team playing well. The last two playoff flame outs have been awful. I know it is not all his fault. That said, Syd and Geno are running out of time. Sully squandered the last two opportunities in miserable failure. I advocated for them to cut him loose after the Islanders debacle last year. They gave him another chance and he rewarded them by losing to the 24th ranked team in a 24 team tournament.

As I stated in another post, This team has shown the ability to thrive under new coaches and new systems. I still think it was a chicken shit move to can all the assistants. Sully is a good coach but I believe he has bumped up against his expiration date here in Pittsburgh. I agree with "recruits" that since Sully hasn't been given a pink slip he will be cut mid season.
 
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We very much disagree

Sid plays the full ice all the time
Malkin - prone to sulking and going brain dead .

and Malkin has almost always been given the higher quality wingers - Because he needs them
I am all about the logo in the front > than the name on the back of the jersey. Except with Sid. (Or Mario). The problem with say trading Sid is a) the cap and b) unlike back when Gretzky went to LA, that was a market with a new owner trying to show the locals they were serious.

I mean, if you say Sid and Letang to Florida for Barkov, Huberdeau and Ekblad, well yeah, I would have a hard time turning that down. But Florida wouldn't make that deal........
 
The discussion on Letang is always interesting ...... these are just my opinions and I respect the opinions of others which may be different ...... He is not the same player as he was at 25 and I'm not adverse to trading him depending on the return, but I personally wouldn't get rid of him just as a salary dump ...... I think his value compared to his salary (7.25 million) is much better than Schultz (5.5 million) and Johnson (3.25 million), two third pairing defensemen who were bad (you could get two defensemen to take their place for under 1 million each) ...... those two should be dumped for both cap purposes and poor performance.

If Letang's salary is high compared to his production it is not by a large amount and I say that because I don't believe his production has fallen off drastically like some of you do ..... he wasn't good in the 4 playoff games but how many were ....... if you use +/- as the metric to evaluate Letang, you probably have a 50% chance of being wrong as it is a flawed metric ....... if you look at Letang's advanced stats from the regular season, they are overall good and are in general comparable to his average yearly stats over his career ....... he isn't perfect and admittedly his major negative stat was too many giveaways but overall by advanced metrics he played well this past season ...... Letang may be the 12th highest paid defenseman today (one or two more will pass his salary next year), but he also was 14th in scoring for defensemen (44 points in 61 games) and 11 of the 13 ahead of him played in more games ..... if Letang would have scored two more points, he would have been in the top 10 for defensemen in scoring.

In today's game, a big thing is puck possession ..... in the other teams end ! ........ that means most teams look for defensemen who are good skating, mobile, puck movers (and it really helps if they are physical as well) (Sullivan's system doesn't work well without them) that can get the puck out of their end by retrieving pucks and skating or passing them up to the forwards quickly and who help keep it in the opponents end by pinching/activating whenever they need to .... they also need to get pucks on net from the point with traffic in front hopefully ...... if most of your defensemen are OK in the defensive zone but not good puck movers or not good playing in the offensive zone, you are going to be playing in your end more then otherwise and you will be stifling players like Crosby and Malkin ...... my point is that Letang even though I think he has lost half a step in speed is still our best puck moving D-man ...... (also, being good in the offensive zone is not necessarily measured by how many points a D-man scores) ..... if we trade Letang, we would have to bring in at least 1 top 4 D-man to replace him IMO or maybe 2 (if you wanted to maybe move Pettersson to the 3rd line to strengthen it).

As for getting rid of Letang to dump his salary that is easier said then done ...... the majority of teams are going to be tight with the salary cap next season making a trade for us to dump his salary more difficult (he also has a modified no trade and no movement clause) ..... if traded for draft picks, we will likely have to retain a not insignificant part of his salary ...... if traded for players to a team with cap problems, we will likely have to take close to his salary back in new players and we aren't going to be receiving a D-man as good as him in return from that team leaving our defense really weak without other trades/acquisitions as above.

Again, I'm not against trading Letang if it makes sense and is a good hockey trade...... me thinks it is going to be an interesting off season.

We are not that far apart on Letang. He’s definitely not the same player he was when he was 25 years-old. I don’t think there’s any question about that.

I just also don’t think there’s any question that he is the most underrated Pittsburgh Penguin of all-time.

Hands down! This is no doubt about it.

The man has enjoyed a Hall of Fame career and half the city has spent the better part of the past seven or eight years trying to run the guy out of town.

Why?

Who the hell knows why? Because people are goofy, that’s why.

Washington Capitals fans once did the exact same thing with Larry Murphy, another Hall if Fame defenseman. They thought he sucked and was overrated and blah, blah, blah. Then, the team traded him away and he went on to win a bunch of Stanley Cups with Pittsburgh and Detroit.

You know, because he totally sucked.

For whatever reason, every time the Penguins lose a series to anyone, half the people will be convinced that it is all Letang’s fault. I’ve seen it every year for the past seven or eight years. Then, the next year he comes back and he’s again by leaps and bounds our best defenseman and people simply refuse to acknowledge it.

LOL! It’s just ridiculous.

Letang didn’t have a bad series against Montreal. He certainly could’ve provided more offense than he did, but that could be said of everyone on the team. He was really good otherwise.

The third pairing was problem there. They were on the ice for nearly all of the goals against. Instead, we’re talking about the first pairing. And, let’s be honest, we’re not even really talking about the first pairing. The other guy is completely exempt from criticism. We only talk about 58 because apparently he is alone out there on the ice.

It is textbook scapegoating. That’s what is happening here and it has been happening for a long time.
And Pittsburgh is definitely not going trade him this off-season.

Because they can’t.

You can’t afford to give up your best offensive defenseman, your best defensive defenseman and your best even strength defenseman all in one deal unless you get something really strong in return – which is it going to happen for a 34 year-old.

The Penguins are very unlikely to win the Stanley Cup next year. That means, a year ahead of time, I am guaranteeing you, we can look forward to get more examples of people insisting that Kris Letang is primarily to blame for the Penguins first (or second) round loss to (fill in the blank).

That’s just how the song girls nowadays and it’s how it has gone for almost a decade now.

Next year, he’ll make another All-Star team, he’ll lead the team minutes, he’ll lead the team in goals amongst defensemen, he’ll lead the team in points among defensemen, and again, when they lose, it’ll be all his fault.

Rinse. Wash. Repeat.

“We totally need to trade him this time because his play has fallen off the ledge. It’s all his fault. Blah, blah, blah...”

Every. Single. Year.

Look, if we can get a fair return for him, let’s do it. That would be awesome! Can we get a good young defenseman for him? Someone who can also play all those minutes? If so, I’m in!

However, if it’s, “We need to get rid of him because he sucks when he’s not the player he once was and we will be just fine without him...”

Nope! Absolutely not!

That’s a comically ridiculous strategy and it would absolutely kill us.
 
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I am all about the logo in the front > than the name on the back of the jersey. Except with Sid. (Or Mario). The problem with say trading Sid is a) the cap and b) unlike back when Gretzky went to LA, that was a market with a new owner trying to show the locals they were serious.

I mean, if you say Sid and Letang to Florida for Barkov, Huberdeau and Ekblad, well yeah, I would have a hard time turning that down. But Florida wouldn't make that deal........
The thing about Sid that you never, ever hear in Pittsburgh is how ridiculously team-friendly his deal is. He has 3 years left at a cap hit of only $8.7mm a year (technically his contract has 6 years left, but the Pens will have to extend him after ‘21-22 based on the structure of the deal being front loaded moreso than vice versa).

I glanced at Cap Friendly, and they show his cap hit as 23rd among all NHL players this season! That’s amazing considering guys like Jeff Skinner and PK Subban are hitting the cap harder than Sid, and with the young superstar guys like Matthews, McDavid, Draisaitl and Marner costing more than 10mm a year against the cap, it shows what a great value his contract is for the Pens.

Combine all that with how well conditioned he is, the fact that great players can stay great into their 40s in the NHL, and the fact that he is a great locker room guy, let me ask the question : Why exactly would you consider trading Sid?
 
Let me also add that I’d be okay with trading him for a lesser return if it’s part of a longer-term project.

Meaning, if we are tearing down a little bit to be good in three or four years, I’d be open to that as well.

However, the notion that he would somehow be addition by subtraction is just such an incredibly stupid opinion held by an alarmingly high percentage of Penguins fans.

That’s a nicest way I can say it. It’s just a ridiculously stupid view that is not founded in reality.

When you trade away the guy who leads your team in minutes and plays on your top power-play unit, your number one penalty killing unit and plays the most minutes at even strength, you are not definitely getting better.

I shouldn’t have to say that out loud but apparently I do.

That is not addition by subtraction. That is more like division by subtraction.

Again, don’t read this and see this is some sort of passionate defense of Kris Letang or his play. Instead, read it as a passionate defense of reason and of the Penguins. It’s not about the player, it’s about common sense.
 
We are not that far apart on Letang. He’s definitely not the same player he was when he was 25 years-old. I don’t think there’s any question about that.

I just also don’t think there’s any question that he is the most underrated Pittsburgh Penguin of all-time.

Hands down! This is no doubt about it.

The man has enjoyed a Hall of Fame career and half the city has spent the better part of the past seven or eight years trying to run the guy out of town.

Why?

Who the hell knows why? Because people are goofy, that’s why.

Washington Capitals fans once did the exact same thing with Larry Murphy, another Hall if Fame defenseman. They thought he sucked and was overrated and blah, blah, blah. Then, the team traded him away and he went on to win a bunch of Stanley Cups with Pittsburgh and Detroit.

You know, because he totally sucked.

For whatever reason, every time the Penguins lose a series to anyone, half the people will be convinced that it is all Letang’s fault. I’ve seen it every year for the past seven or eight years. Then, the next year he comes back and he’s again by leaps and bounds our best defenseman and people simply refuse to acknowledge it.

LOL! It’s just ridiculous.

Letang didn’t have a bad series against Montreal. He certainly could’ve provided more offense than he did, but that could be said of everyone on the team. He was really good otherwise.

The third pairing was problem there. They were on the ice for nearly all of the goals against. Instead, we’re talking about the first pairing. And, let’s be honest, we’re not even really talking about the first pairing. The other guy is completely exempt from criticism. We only talk about 58 because apparently he is alone out there on the ice.

It is textbook scapegoating. That’s what is happening here and it has been happening for a long time.
And Pittsburgh is definitely not going trade him this off-season.

Because they can’t.

You can’t afford to give up your best offensive defenseman, your best defensive defenseman and your best even strength defenseman all in one deal unless you get something really strong in return – which is it going to happen for a 34 year-old.

The Penguins are very unlikely to win the Stanley Cup next year. That means, a year ahead of time, I am guaranteeing you, we can look forward to get more examples of people insisting that Kris Letang is primarily to blame for the Penguins first (or second) round loss to (fill in the blank).

That’s just how the song girls nowadays and it’s how it has gone for almost a decade now.

Next year, he’ll make another All-Star team, he’ll lead the team minutes, he’ll lead the team in goals amongst defensemen, he’ll lead the team in points among defensemen, and again, when they lose, it’ll be all his fault.

Rinse. Wash. Repeat.

“We totally need to trade him this time because his play has fallen off the ledge. It’s all his fault. Blah, blah, blah...”

Every. Single. Year.

Look, if we can get a fair return for him, let’s do it. That would be awesome! Can we get a good young defenseman for him? Someone who can also play all those minutes? If so, I’m in!

However, if it’s, “We need to get rid of him because he sucks when he’s not the player he once was and we will be just fine without him...”

Nope! Absolutely not!

That’s a comically ridiculous strategy and it would absolutely kill us.
Since Letang had his heart problems he has not been the same player. Its like he has no feel for the game anymore. Kinda in a daze, going through the motions
 
Right, but even as this listless, ineffective player who obviously now sucks, he is still judged as a perennial all-star by his peers and as the best defenseman on the team by his own coaches.

That’s my point. Kris Letang is not just underrated, he’s criminally underrated.

There are a lot of people out there, including some sports writers, who genuinely think he is bad at his job. I am telling you that by all objective measures, that’s just an absurd viewpoint.

Does he occasionally make reckless decisions? Yes! Absolutely, he does! Can that be maddening, especially for a veteran defenseman? Yes, he has me screaming at the television all the time.

However, he also, by a factor of five, cleans up more messes than any other Penguins defenseman. There are so many times where they make a mistake high in the offense of zone or in the neutral zone that he easily cleans up and nobody notices it, because he’s so damn good.

Do you know who does notice that? His coaches and his peers. That is why he’s always in the All-Star Game and why he always plays the most minutes.

I just don’t think it’s a radical position to defend the Hall of Fame defenseman. I think the radical position is held by the people who always want to trade away the Hall of Fame defenseman. That’s extremely strange and I simply don’t understand it at all.
 
Just for fun, let’s trade away Letang and not add anyone of note — because his departure would, after all, be addition by subtraction.

Tell me how this looks to you:
Dumoulin/Marino
Petterson/Ruhwedel
Joseph/Johnson

We are going to go with that defense? That unit scored 15 goals this entire season!

Let’s say Marino and his six goals becomes your number one power-play quarterback and he doubles his production to 12 goals next year! That would mark an incredible improvement over this year. However, would that be good enough?

Now, who’s going to kill penalties?

Who’s going to eat all those minutes? Chad Ruhwedel? Zach Troutman?

Who?!

Even if you add an NHL defenseman or two to that group, you’re not going to get a comparable player to Letang. Who are you going to add that’s both available and remotely affordable?

It’s just a really dumb plan. I’m sorry if that offends people, but there’s just no other way to say it.

Let me add one caveat though: it’s not the worst idea in the world if the idea is to try to get top prospects or high draft choices so that the Penguins are ready to revisit the elite in 2024 or 2025. That’s an entirely different discussion.

However, nobody’s talking about that. They’re talking about competing for the Stanley Cup in 2021 and 2022. I’m telling you that to do that we need to ADD talent to our sparse back end, not take more of it away.

People are talking about undersized wingers and stars who didn’t produce enough to their liking. Our problem is as clear as the nose on our face. Our back end is not good enough. It’s not even close to being good enough.

And for some reason, for a lot of people, the best way to solve that problem is by trading away that unit’s clear best player with no real plan to replace him.

And yet, these rocket scientists get mad at ME gor pointing out the very obviously GLARING flaws to their thought process. They think I’M the one being unreasonable!

LOL! It’s just completely crazy on multiple levels.
 
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We are not that far apart on Letang. He’s definitely not the same player he was when he was 25 years-old. I don’t think there’s any question about that.

I just also don’t think there’s any question that he is the most underrated Pittsburgh Penguin of all-time.

Hands down! This is no doubt about it.

The man has enjoyed a Hall of Fame career and half the city has spent the better part of the past seven or eight years trying to run the guy out of town.

Why?

Who the hell knows why? Because people are goofy, that’s why.

Washington Capitals fans once did the exact same thing with Larry Murphy, another Hall if Fame defenseman. They thought he sucked and was overrated and blah, blah, blah. Then, the team traded him away and he went on to win a bunch of Stanley Cups with Pittsburgh and Detroit.

You know, because he totally sucked.

For whatever reason, every time the Penguins lose a series to anyone, half the people will be convinced that it is all Letang’s fault. I’ve seen it every year for the past seven or eight years. Then, the next year he comes back and he’s again by leaps and bounds our best defenseman and people simply refuse to acknowledge it.

LOL! It’s just ridiculous.

Letang didn’t have a bad series against Montreal. He certainly could’ve provided more offense than he did, but that could be said of everyone on the team. He was really good otherwise.

The third pairing was problem there. They were on the ice for nearly all of the goals against. Instead, we’re talking about the first pairing. And, let’s be honest, we’re not even really talking about the first pairing. The other guy is completely exempt from criticism. We only talk about 58 because apparently he is alone out there on the ice.

It is textbook scapegoating. That’s what is happening here and it has been happening for a long time.
And Pittsburgh is definitely not going trade him this off-season.

Because they can’t.

You can’t afford to give up your best offensive defenseman, your best defensive defenseman and your best even strength defenseman all in one deal unless you get something really strong in return – which is it going to happen for a 34 year-old.

The Penguins are very unlikely to win the Stanley Cup next year. That means, a year ahead of time, I am guaranteeing you, we can look forward to get more examples of people insisting that Kris Letang is primarily to blame for the Penguins first (or second) round loss to (fill in the blank).

That’s just how the song girls nowadays and it’s how it has gone for almost a decade now.

Next year, he’ll make another All-Star team, he’ll lead the team minutes, he’ll lead the team in goals amongst defensemen, he’ll lead the team in points among defensemen, and again, when they lose, it’ll be all his fault.

Rinse. Wash. Repeat.

“We totally need to trade him this time because his play has fallen off the ledge. It’s all his fault. Blah, blah, blah...”

Every. Single. Year.

Look, if we can get a fair return for him, let’s do it. That would be awesome! Can we get a good young defenseman for him? Someone who can also play all those minutes? If so, I’m in!

However, if it’s, “We need to get rid of him because he sucks when he’s not the player he once was and we will be just fine without him...”

Nope! Absolutely not!

That’s a comically ridiculous strategy and it would absolutely kill us.

nobody blamed Letang for the series
He’s simply not good enough and it’s time to rebuild

changing nothing and getting the same results isn’t okay -because you’re change adverse.

you use a lot of words to not say much
 
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I would trade Sid. He has had too much say about the team (Simon, Sheary and Johnson) is getting old and is concussion prone. He would bring the greatest return.

Malkin is the better player. Brings the puck out of the defensive zone and can physically take over a game, if not left with whatever wingers Sid doesn't want on any particular day.

Team players better when one of them is out. Would like Geno play where he would like on the power play. You know - the position Sid claims.

Sid gets what he gets by out working people. That works in the regular season, not so much in the post season where everyone works.

I don't think there's a person involved in Hockey who would agree that Malkin is a better player than Sid. Crosby would bring the greatest return because he is the better player.
 
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Just for fun, let’s trade away Letang and not add anyone of note — because his departure would, after all, be addition by subtraction.

Tell me how this looks to you:
Dumoulin/Marino
Petterson/Ruhwedel
Joseph/Johnson

We are going to go with that defense? That unit scored 15 goals this entire season!

Let’s say Marino and his six goals becomes your number one power-play quarterback and he doubles his production to 12 goals next year! That would mark an incredible improvement over this year. However, would that be good enough?

Now, who’s going to kill penalties?

Who’s going to eat all those minutes? Chad Ruhwedel? Zach Troutman?

Who?!

Even if you add an NHL defenseman or two to that group, you’re not going to get a comparable player to Letang. Who are you going to add that’s both available and remotely affordable?

It’s just a really dumb plan. I’m sorry if that offends people, but there’s just no other way to say it.

Let me add one caveat though: it’s not the worst idea in the world if the idea is to try to get top prospects or high draft choices so that the Penguins are ready to revisit the elite in 2024 or 2025. That’s an entirely different discussion.

However, nobody’s talking about that. They’re talking about competing for the Stanley Cup in 2021 and 2022. I’m telling you that to do that we need to ADD talent to our sparse back end, not take more of it away.

People are talking about undersized wingers and stars who didn’t produce enough to their liking. Our problem is as clear as the nose on our face. Our back end is not good enough. It’s not even close to being good enough.

And for some reason, for a lot of people, the best way to solve that problem is by trading away that unit’s clear best player with no real plan to replace him.

And yet, these rocket scientists get mad at ME gor pointing out the very obviously GLARING flaws to their thought process. They think I’M the one being unreasonable!

LOL! It’s just completely crazy on multiple levels.

Your man crush on Letang is noted. Nobody said it was all Letang's fault, nor did anyone say it would be addition by subtraction.

Your argument is who else is going to play. That's what trades, free agency and drafts are used for. People get paid to figure this out.
 
Just for fun, let’s trade away Letang and not add anyone of note — because his departure would, after all, be addition by subtraction.

Tell me how this looks to you:
Dumoulin/Marino
Petterson/Ruhwedel
Joseph/Johnson

We are going to go with that defense? That unit scored 15 goals this entire season!

Let’s say Marino and his six goals becomes your number one power-play quarterback and he doubles his production to 12 goals next year! That would mark an incredible improvement over this year. However, would that be good enough?

Now, who’s going to kill penalties?

Who’s going to eat all those minutes? Chad Ruhwedel? Zach Troutman?

Who?!

Even if you add an NHL defenseman or two to that group, you’re not going to get a comparable player to Letang. Who are you going to add that’s both available and remotely affordable?

It’s just a really dumb plan. I’m sorry if that offends people, but there’s just no other way to say it.

Let me add one caveat though: it’s not the worst idea in the world if the idea is to try to get top prospects or high draft choices so that the Penguins are ready to revisit the elite in 2024 or 2025. That’s an entirely different discussion.

However, nobody’s talking about that. They’re talking about competing for the Stanley Cup in 2021 and 2022. I’m telling you that to do that we need to ADD talent to our sparse back end, not take more of it away.

People are talking about undersized wingers and stars who didn’t produce enough to their liking. Our problem is as clear as the nose on our face. Our back end is not good enough. It’s not even close to being good enough.

And for some reason, for a lot of people, the best way to solve that problem is by trading away that unit’s clear best player with no real plan to replace him.

And yet, these rocket scientists get mad at ME gor pointing out the very obviously GLARING flaws to their thought process. They think I’M the one being unreasonable!

LOL! It’s just completely crazy on multiple levels.
Holy PHILABUSTER DOC! Enough. We know, you love Kris Letang. It has been written in about 1 million words (or more) by you. My god. Time to yield the floor to someone else's opinion.

Kris Letang is a bonehead. Okay? All the talent in the world, but those skills are now diminishing. What hasn't happened, is he has not really gained the wisdom with age and still thinks he is the 25 year old Kris Letang at times. He becomes almost indignant when confronted about "changing" his style.

I know the Pens have scored 12 goals their last 8 playoff games, of which they are 1-7. The PP, of which he is a staple, has been awful. He's just one guy though. But...this (trading Letang) is about trying to do something different than trotting out the same guys over and over and expecting results to suddenly change.

I am not saying trade him to trade him, I am saying kick the tires and see what he may fetch in a deal. I think that is prudent. Don't you?
 
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Backs to the wall, down 0-3 in series, 0-2 in Game 4, the Caps responded. I doubt the Caps go on to win.......but.....Ovy scores 2 goals, Kuznetsov had a goal and an assist and John Carlson had 2 assists as the Caps came back and won 3-2 to stave off elimination.

Proof that yes, it is not an NHL rule that your bottom 6 depth players must save your plight in big games, and that yes, it is allowable that a team's best players step up and do what they are paid to do, score.
 
That was an impressive performance by the Caps in the last 2 periods. The Barry Trotz revenge tour isn’t complete just yet!
 
Okay,

Let’s move off of Letang for a Minute.

McCann and Bjugstad:
Keep one
Keep the other
Keep both
Trade/ get rid of both

AND what compensation would the Pens be looking at if either was traded?
 
Okay,

Let’s move off of Letang for a Minute.

McCann and Bjugstad:
Keep one
Keep the other
Keep both
Trade/ get rid of both

AND what compensation would the Pens be looking at if either was traded?
Keep McCann - dump Bjugstad
Nothing in return
 
Backs to the wall, down 0-3 in series, 0-2 in Game 4, the Caps responded. I doubt the Caps go on to win.......but.....Ovy scores 2 goals, Kuznetsov had a goal and an assist and John Carlson had 2 assists as the Caps came back and won 3-2 to stave off elimination.

Proof that yes, it is not an NHL rule that your bottom 6 depth players must save your plight in big games, and that yes, it is allowable that a team's best players step up and do what they are paid to do, score.
I really can't stand the Caps and that game last night scared me a little bit. They took it over and were playing like they did the year they won it all. I don't know if they have enough in the tank to do it 4 games in a row tho. I sure hope the Islanders figure out a way to win one more. I don't think it is going to be easy. I wouldn't be surprised if the Caps pull off 4 straight after that effort to build on.
 
Backs to the wall, down 0-3 in series, 0-2 in Game 4, the Caps responded. I doubt the Caps go on to win.......but.....Ovy scores 2 goals, Kuznetsov had a goal and an assist and John Carlson had 2 assists as the Caps came back and won 3-2 to stave off elimination.

Proof that yes, it is not an NHL rule that your bottom 6 depth players must save your plight in big games, and that yes, it is allowable that a team's best players step up and do what they are paid to do, score.
By the way, as you pointed out, Ovi was superb as a leader and player last night. When was the last time you saw Sid or Geno dominate a playoff game like that?
 
nobody blamed Letang for the series
He’s simply not good enough and it’s time to rebuild

changing nothing and getting the same results isn’t okay -because you’re change adverse.

you use a lot of words to not say much
OK, if we’re rebuilding, that’s a different story. I’m open to it then — depending of course on the return. If we’re talking about winning the Stanley Cup next year or the year after, trading away our best defenseman ends that plan.
 
By the way, as you pointed out, Ovi was superb as a leader and player last night. When was the last time you saw Sid or Geno dominate a playoff game like that?
Ovechkin had a great game last night. He hasn’t been great in the series though. If Washington loses in five games, I don’t think people are going to be touting Ovi for his leadership.

Also, John Carlson has been legitimately horrible in that series. Again, he had a good game last night, but he was horrible in the first three games.
 
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Ovechkin had a great game last night. He hasn’t been great in the series though. If Washington loses in five games, I don’t think people are going to be touting Ovi for his leadership.

Also, John Carlson has been legitimately horrible in that series. Again, he had a good game last night, but he was horrible in the first three games.
Agree with you 100%. I think the next game will tell the tale, if the Caps win, look out!
 
OK, if we’re rebuilding, that’s a different story. I’m open to it then — depending of course on the return. If we’re talking about winning the Stanley Cup next year or the year after, trading away our best defenseman ends that plan.
The window is closed with this roster
Going 1-9 in the last 10 playoff games is enough for me to accept that
It’s time to move some pieces
Because if he’s our best - we aren’t winning
 
The window is closed with this roster
Going 1-9 in the last 10 playoff games is enough for me to accept that
It’s time to move some pieces
Because if he’s our best - we aren’t winning

Yeah, pretty much. People get emotional with players and remember what they were rather than what they've become.
 
The window is closed with this roster
Going 1-9 in the last 10 playoff games is enough for me to accept that
It’s time to move some pieces
Because if he’s our best - we aren’t winning
OK, if you have decided that the window is closed, then I’m open to that conversation. That’s an entirely different discussion and will have to involve a pretty massive overhaul.

Maybe he isn’t good enough anymore? That’s certainly possible. What is not debatable is whether or not he’s our best defenseman. Kris Letang is very clearly Pittsburgh’s best defenseman and has been for about a decade or so — and yet people have been calling for the guy’s head literally every single off-season.

It’s been the strangest phenomenon I’ve ever witnessed as a sports fan. It’s been genuinely disturbing how dumb that opinion has been for a long time now.

Maybe it’s finally right now though? Maybe he finally is a liability? I still doubt it, personally, but it’s definitely possible.

At some point, it will definitely be true. It just hasn’t been true for the past decade and it’s probably not true now either.
 
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OK, if you have decided that the window is closed, then I’m open to that conversation. That’s an entirely different discussion and will have to involve a pretty massive overhaul.

Maybe he isn’t good enough anymore? That’s certainly possible. What is not debatable is whether or not he’s our best defenseman. Kris Letang is very clearly Pittsburgh’s best defenseman and has been for about a decade or so — and yet people have been calling for the guy’s head literally every single off-season.

It’s been the strangest phenomenon I’ve ever witnessed as a sports fan. It’s been genuinely disturbing how dumb that opinion has been for a long time now.

Maybe it’s finally right now though? Maybe he finally is a liability? I still doubt it, personally, but it’s definitely possible.

At some point, it will definitely be true. It just hasn’t been true for the past decade and it’s probably not true now either.
Will Letang be "our best defenseman" starting next year? If Marino continues his rise, maybe not. Now that is not the reason to trade him. The reason is, to take the team in a different direction. Again, I am stressing that the "best player" in a trade doesn't always make that trade a win for the team that got "the best player".

James Neal was a better player than Patrick Hornquist and Nick Spaling. But Neal played a perimeter game (much like our players now) and the Pens needed grit and net front presence which Hornquist filled that role perfectly.

I am fine with keeping Letang. But I also would explore my options with him and see what he could fetch.
 
Here's a question for yinz who follow hockey? If you can add ONE player to the Penguins to help them win another cup over the next few years, who would it be?

An easy answer would be Connor McDavid, but really?

My answer would be Victor Hedman, the lanky Swedish Dman from Tampa Bay who logs like 27 minutes of ice, and just dominates play. Think a better skating Shea Weber.

Watching alot of that Tampa/Columbus series, my admiration for both Hedman and Seth Jones of Columbus just grew and grew.
 
Well.....nice to see the Isles do the Caps what they did to us last year. Bye Caps. Bye Ovi.

And last night...Any watch the Flames and the Stars? The Flames were aptly named......

There was a moment when lunkhead Milan Lucic ran the Dallas goalie up 3-0, giving Dallas the PP, and Edzo in the booth admonishing him for that. I immediately flashed back to Game 6 of the Pens/Flyers 2009 series when the Flyers got up 3-0 and Talbot goaded the goon into a fight & the Pens score immediately after. And then Dallas never looked back and eliminated the Flames. It was Deja Vu.
 
The man has enjoyed a Hall of Fame career and half the city has spent the better part of the past seven or eight years trying to run the guy out of town.

Why?

Who the hell knows why? Because people are goofy, that’s why.

A segment of Pens fans have consistently been trying to run the best players on the team out of town for the past decade. I simply don't get it. They pick apart the stars and love the hard workers with little talent. Everyone knows you need three solid lines and a fast/physical fourth line to win in the playoffs. Instead, GMJR wastes a first-round pick on Ryan Reaves even though an enforcer is a waste of a roster spot. He spends too much money on Jack Johnson who everyone knows isn't a good defenseman. Too much money and too many assets given away in building the team depth without getting quality in return.
 
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Well.....nice to see the Isles do the Caps what they did to us last year. Bye Caps. Bye Ovi.

And last night...Any watch the Flames and the Stars? The Flames were aptly named......

There was a moment when lunkhead Milan Lucic ran the Dallas goalie up 3-0, giving Dallas the PP, and Edzo in the booth admonishing him for that. I immediately flashed back to Game 6 of the Pens/Flyers 2009 series when the Flyers got up 3-0 and Talbot goaded the goon into a fight & the Pens score immediately after. And then Dallas never looked back and eliminated the Flames. It was Deja Vu.
The minute Lucic took that penalty, I knew it was going to be a game. That said, I never expected Dallas to respond THAT way.
 
Well.....nice to see the Isles do the Caps what they did to us last year. Bye Caps. Bye Ovi.

And last night...Any watch the Flames and the Stars? The Flames were aptly named......

There was a moment when lunkhead Milan Lucic ran the Dallas goalie up 3-0, giving Dallas the PP, and Edzo in the booth admonishing him for that. I immediately flashed back to Game 6 of the Pens/Flyers 2009 series when the Flyers got up 3-0 and Talbot goaded the goon into a fight & the Pens score immediately after. And then Dallas never looked back and eliminated the Flames. It was Deja Vu.
I am picking the Isles to go to the Final. I think this format and the bubble is so unique that I truly don’t believe the best teams are necessarily going to advance all the way, but the ones who handle the bubble life and uniqueness of the situation the best. Clearly, the Islanders have the “it” required this year. You can just see it in the 9 games they have played so far.

On the Western side, it’s clear that both Colorado and Vegas are locked in. That’s scary for everyone else because they were Cup favorites all along.
 
A segment of Pens fans have consistently been trying to run the best players on the team out of town for the past decade. I simply don't get it. They pick apart the stars and love the hard workers with little talent. Everyone knows you need three solid lines and a fast/physical fourth line to win in the playoffs. Instead, GMJR wastes a first-round pick on Ryan Reaves even though an enforcer is a waste of a roster spot. He spends too much money on Jack Johnson who everyone knows isn't a good defenseman. Too much money and too many assets given away in building the team depth without getting quality in return.

Yes, I think you are exactly right. It’s a super strange but undeniably true phenomenon.

Letang in particular only seems to gets noticed when he makes a mistake. Nobody seems to notice - or acknowledge - the 15 or 20 excellent plays he makes in that same game.

How can anyone ever possibly measure up if they’re only judged on their mistakes?

Look, I am not excusing Letang’s mistakes. They can legitimately be exasperating and confounding.

Also, there will definitely be a time in the not too distant future when it will be time to cut bait there. He’s 33 years old, for Pete’s sake! There will be a time where the rewards he provides will not justify the risks he too often takes.

That’s all true. It just hasn’t been true for a decade — whenever the drumbeat to get rid of him first started and it’s genuinely bizarre that we have this exact same debate every single year in the face of all reason and irrefutable facts that conclusively demonstrate the ridiculousness of it all.

Let's make this very clear: Kris Letang is not only not a weakness, he’s been one of the primary strengths of a team that has won three Stanley Cups in the past 11 years. There is no alternative read on that statement. Those are the irrefutable facts. It’s also undeniably true that he has been a regular All-Star game participant during that stretch.

Guys, he’s going to the hockey Hall of Fame at some point. Everyone knows that, right? Look at his stats and his achievements and compare them to some of the guys who have gotten in recently and who played the same position. He’s definitely getting in — I have no doubt.

Yes, he will make mistakes. Yes, he will drive you crazy at times. However, he will also clean up our mess eight out of 10 times. It used to be nine out of 10 times. Soon, it will be six or seven out of 10 times, at which point he will have to go.

Until then, I’m not trading away the guy who is very clearly still my team’s best defenseman on a team that is already weak on its back end. That’s just nonsensical thinking – unless we’re tearing the whole thing down and rebuilding it from scratch.

I think we should spend more time talking about the Penguins’ real problems, not the fake ones like this.

Let’s talk about the real problems – like no offensive scoring depth from the bottom six or the defense.

That’s our real problem and that was true all season long. Let’s figure that out and then we can work on our luxury items.
 
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BTW, the Penguins signed an offensive defenseman today named Josh Maniscalco.

They are said to be very excited about that kid and he could reportedly play in the NHL as early as next year or the year after. That’s a really significant move by them. He’s also a right shot defenseman, which are very hard to find.

What I like most about this move is that it’s an acknowledgment of what I’ve been complaining about in this thread. They just don’t get nearly enough offense from their rearguards.

In signing this offensive defenseman, theoretically at least, they now have someone who can produce offense from the point.

That is very clearly the team’s biggest problem and it has been an ongoing issue. I would love to see them trade Murray for another young defenseman we can skate and score from blue line.

In watching last night’s Calgary/Dallas game, the Flames are in desperate need of a goaltender. Also, I looked into it this morning and they apparently have several good offensive defenseman in their system. I would also be open to their first round pick.

People who are fearful that Murray is not going to fetch a big return are way off the mark. Everyone needs a goalie and there are not too many 26 year-old goalies who have already backstopped two different Stanley Cup champions. Those are rare and he will command a good return.

Calgary might be my first phone call.

My second phone call would probably be to Edmonton – which also clearly needs a goaltender.
 
That chilling moment when you realize fascination has turned to obsession.

Yes, I think you are exactly right. It’s a super strange but undeniably true phenomenon.

Letang in particular only seems to gets noticed when he makes a mistake. Nobody seems to notice - or acknowledge - the 15 or 20 excellent plays he makes in that same game.

How can anyone ever possibly measure up if they’re only judged on their mistakes?

Look, I am not excusing Letang’s mistakes. They can legitimately be exasperating and confounding.

Also, there will definitely be a time in the not too distant future when it will be time to cut bait there. He’s 33 years old, for Pete’s sake! There will be a time where the rewards he provides will not justify the risks he too often takes.

That’s all true. It just hasn’t been true for a decade — whenever the drumbeat to get rid of him first started and it’s genuinely bizarre that we have this exact same debate every single year in the face of all reason and irrefutable facts that conclusively demonstrate the ridiculousness of it all.

Let's make this very clear: Kris Letang is not only not a weakness, he’s been one of the primary strengths of a team that has won three Stanley Cups in the past 11 years. There is no alternative read on that statement. Those are the irrefutable facts. It’s also undeniably true that he has been a regular All-Star game participant during that stretch.

Guys, he’s going to the hockey Hall of Fame at some point. Everyone knows that, right? Look at his stats and his achievements and compare them to some of the guys who have gotten in recently and who played the same position. He’s definitely getting in — I have no doubt.

Yes, he will make mistakes. Yes, he will drive you crazy at times. However, he will also clean up our mess eight out of 10 times. It used to be nine out of 10 times. Soon, it will be six or seven out of 10 times, at which point he will have to go.

Until then, I’m not trading away the guy who is very clearly still my team’s best defenseman on a team that is already weak on its back end. That’s just nonsensical thinking – unless we’re tearing the whole thing down and rebuilding it from scratch.

I think we should spend more time talking about the Penguins’ real problems, not the fake ones like this.

Let’s talk about the real problems – like no offensive scoring depth from the bottom six or the defense.

That’s our real problem and that was true all season long. Let’s figure that out and then we can work on our luxury items.
 
Maniscalco, the AZ defensemen, also has nice size. I believe in the 6’1-6’2 range. An entry level contract is cheap and no guarantee he takes a spot this year...but size, skill, youth, inexpensive. I like that roll of the dice.
The other pickup is a proTotypical pens forward: skilled and short.

I love signing the younger Stevens: 6’5, bloodlines, Yale grad, young, cheap, smart, no wasted draft pick. Why not roll the dice?

As far as Murray goes: get what you can for him or take a lot less and package Johnson, too.

if you can trade Murray’s rights and unload Johnson and get a young player , a prospect, or a pick, I’d call it a win.
 
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The good doctor: “Let's make this very clear: Kris Letang is not only not a weakness, he’s been one of the primary strengths of a team that has won three Stanley Cups in the past 11 years. There is no alternative read on that statement. Those are the irrefutable facts. It’s also undeniably true that he has been a regular All-Star game participant during that stretch.“

May I remind the good doctor that Letang was on the shelf for the entire playoffs on our last cup run and many of us attributed our success to his NOT being there to F things up?
 
BTW, the Penguins signed an offensive defenseman today named Josh Maniscalco.

They are said to be very excited about that kid and he could reportedly play in the NHL as early as next year or the year after. That’s a really significant move by them. He’s also a right shot defenseman, which are very hard to find.

What I like most about this move is that it’s an acknowledgment of what I’ve been complaining about in this thread. They just don’t get nearly enough offense from their rearguards.

In signing this offensive defenseman, theoretically at least, they now have someone who can produce offense from the point.

That is very clearly the team’s biggest problem and it has been an ongoing issue. I would love to see them trade Murray for another young defenseman we can skate and score from blue line.

In watching last night’s Calgary/Dallas game, the Flames are in desperate need of a goaltender. Also, I looked into it this morning and they apparently have several good offensive defenseman in their system. I would also be open to their first round pick.

People who are fearful that Murray is not going to fetch a big return are way off the mark. Everyone needs a goalie and there are not too many 26 year-old goalies who have already backstopped two different Stanley Cup champions. Those are rare and he will command a good return.

Calgary might be my first phone call.

My second phone call would probably be to Edmonton – which also clearly needs a goaltender.
Absolutely the teams in Western Canada seem like really good fits for Matt Murray.
 
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Backs to the wall, down 0-3 in series, 0-2 in Game 4, the Caps responded. I doubt the Caps go on to win.......but.....Ovy scores 2 goals, Kuznetsov had a goal and an assist and John Carlson had 2 assists as the Caps came back and won 3-2 to stave off elimination.

Proof that yes, it is not an NHL rule that your bottom 6 depth players must save your plight in big games, and that yes, it is allowable that a team's best players step up and do what they are paid to do, score.
Guess it was limited leadership losing 4-0
 
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