Don't get your point. I am approaching this from the correct point of view. Sorry.
OT: Pirate Fans....the Prospects Thread.
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Don't get your point. I am approaching this from the correct point of view. Sorry.
This has been going on for years. I think they had the number 1 farm team back when Chad Hermansen was going to be our savior. That was the promise after they gutted the team in the 90's. It took 20 years to make the playoffs. Its always about the prospects.
Nutting makes Ebenezer Scrooge look like Andrew Carnegie as far as parting with money. That said, if the Pirates are going to be run on nickels and dimes, then I think they have to embrace the "small window" approach that worked for the Royals and for the Marlins twice. You load up for one, maybe two shots at the prize. then you dump and reload. Koolaid sippers may spit up over this, but as a fan I'd rather have two trophies to cherish amidst a pile of losing seasons than zero. Being a perennial also ran at 85 wins or 75 wins amounts to the same thing. That's why it is maddening that the Pirates retreated across a bridge year in 2016 when they were thisclose in 2015. Unfortunately for Nutting, fan apathy is settling in. The Big Con Job isn't working. On paper the 2017 Pirates are contenders now, but do we really expect Nutting to allow the trade deadline to pass without dealing Cutch?
I went to Wednesday night's Pirate game against Tampa Bay. Unfortunately it was Penn State Night. And where am I seated but one section next to the Nitt Wits. When the first chorus of We-Are.... scratched the chalkboard inside my head, I paused, waited for the quiet and shouted the only appropriate response. JOE KNEW!
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I've been hearing how great the prospects were since I was in 5th grade. I'm now 34. Nutting should trademark the phrase "Wait Til Next Year."
Free agents and "star player" deadline acquisitions have been so lackluster and unpredictable over the recent years that it seems difficult to say that adding anybody was an obvious move that would have paid mass dividends. I've never really taken solace in the "my team did what I would have done in a video game so I know they tried super hard just like I would have" way of thinking about sports.
I would be truly shocked if Paul Zeise had a coherent thought on anything related to modern sports, let alone baseball. That sport has moved way beyond the caveman, old school analysis that Zeise peddles.
I would be truly shocked if Paul Zeise had a coherent thought on anything related to modern sports, let alone baseball. That sport has moved way beyond the caveman, old school analysis that Zeise peddles.
Problem is, who takes Cervelli with his production/injury vs cost? Got to hope some contender loses their catcher at the deadline and gets very desperate. Diaz needs to be the guy.
As for Cutch, I say trade him if his production stays good. I don't think this team is doing much of anything this (or next) year given the current state of our rotation. Can't let Cutch walk for nothing (don't think there is much of a chance he re-signs here). I'd be looking to trade a few players including Cutch, Cervelli, possibly Freese and maybe Cole if he has high value at the deadline. I'd include Harrison in that group if Frazier hadn't regressed so much recently. The rotation needs serious help and there aren't any sure reinforcements at AAA. Taillon and Nova are quality TOR arms, Williams seems like a good five. Need to find a few reliable mid-rotation arms which shouldn't be hard to acquire when dealing the guys previously mentioned.
Unfortunately the Kang situation has left them with a need at a position they thought they were solid at for years to come. Phillies are supposedly looking to deal their young, cheap, controllable, under performing 3B (Franco).
Del, I am right there with you! Nutsack proves again and again he is not in it to win. Giving away two of our top 10 prospects, even if they were not our most coveted, just to get Liriano's contract off the books was just pathetic. No other owner in baseball is anywhere near that cheap. What is nice is moves like that help the fans take notice. Attendance is down quite a bit this year. Fans are finally catching onto the fact that Nutsack just wants their money while giving them a half-assed product in return.
I can't wait to see what that turd does with Cutch. Maybe the right thing to do is trade him, but anyone who thinks Nutting will do it because it is in the best interest of the team winning is just off their rocker. He will do it so he doesn't have to pay him and it will help him sell his plan of keeping the team competitive in the future. If he winds up getting a new contract here, i will probably drop dead from shock.
After the 3 loss series, at home, to the last place Giants, the Pirates are not going to all of a sudden turn it around to win 50 of their next 80 games to get to 88 wins, which MIGHT win the division.
So....trading Cutch is not a "cheap" move, it is the proper baseball move. Cutch gave the Pirates an incredibly friendly contract the last time out. He ain't gonna resign here, nor should the Pirates give him a salary with term that locks him way beyond his prime. The fact that he has gotten hot, and at least at the moment, looks like the All Star Cutch, the Pirates got lucky here and should cash this big chip in.
Of course, "prospects" are just that. Look at Polanco. Look at Glasnow. Those two and Alan Hansen a few years ago likely could have brought the Buccos Chris Sale. But hey, Ryan Vogelson was close to him, right?
And Buccos, what did you think about yesterday and the mastermind Clint Hurdle's move. You lose the first 2 games of a home series to the Giants, you are supposedly in the race, you bench your two best offensive players to "rest" them. I can see one, but both?
Bob Nutting may as well have relocated the franchise to Wheeling or Montreal or Las Vegas. He has effective killed my passion for the Pirates, which was born in the era of Bob Bailey and Donn Clendenon and set ablaze by the Gunner, Bob Prince. An owner doesn't necessarily have to come out and emphatically SAY they want to win; but they should avoid giving the impression that they DON'T care about winning. Way back the Galbreaths made rare public statements. You heard from them when they were hoisting the World Series trophy. Being a Bucco fan meant many bleak years in between, but I never gave up hope. Even during the Consortium and McClatchy regimes, when payroll was small and wins were few, I still held out hope for a miracle because I believed ownership was doing all it could. With Nutting, the 9th Richest Owner in Baseball, the profit motive is crystal clear and The Plan forever points to a Tomorrow that may never come. After decades of attending 30 or more games, I've struck my colors and set them aside. I won't buy a ticket directly from this franchise again.
We will invest in payroll when attendance goes up. I think Coonelly and Nutting said this around 2011.
2011 Pirates attendance 1.9 million. Payroll 45 million
2012 Pirates attendance 2.09 million Payroll 70 million
2013 Pirates attendance 2.26 million Payroll 99 million. Win WC game against Reds, lost to St Louis in NLDS
2014 Pirates attendance 2.44 million Payroll 80 million. Eh? Really adding to the team. Lost WC game to the Giants
2015 Pirates attendance 2.5 million Payroll 104 million. 98 wins. WC loser to the Cubs
2016 Pirates attendance 2.25 million Payroll 80 million. I guess those 3 seasons were "good enough" for yinz baseball fans
This is literally what tore it for me with Nutting & Co. PUT IT ON THE FANS. Triple the prices, restrict the exchange programs that made a 20-game plan so flexible, but lower the payroll or give up on a season early. Bankroll Bob can take his skeet-shooter and stick it you know where.
The two key takeaways is after the great 2013 season, which they won that WC game and had a thrilling playoff series against the Cards, they drop 19 million is payroll. This, while having Cole cheap, Liriano on the roster, McCutcheon well underpaid, Marte locked up to a team friendly deal, they still had Russell Martin, yet somehow shed almost $20 million of payroll. Then after the 2015 98 win season, they lost Martin to Free Agency, shed Morton's salary, shed Burnett's salary, almost $25 million and that offseason was loaded for pitchers. They could have had JA Happ for $12 mill per year/3 years. They could have traded Polanco and Glasnow for David Archer or even Chris Sale and still not be over the $100 million payroll they accrued the year before.
Now? Glasnow's value has plummeted, same with Polanco, their window is closing.
It was obvious that the Pirates strategy after the 98 win season was:
1) Have a team capable of winning 85-88 games to keep fans interest all season and maybe make a WC
2) Keep prospects so you can continue to dangle that "next year" to suckers, I mean Pirate fans.
3) Keep payroll between $80-90 million. Which is in the bottom fourth of MLB.
The only thing that might push that jackass out of the business is more people like you staying away from the ballpark. He understands profit and that is it. If the seats go empty Mr. Nutsack could be prompted to sell, and every Pirate fan should rejoice if it happens. There is no hope with him as the owner of this long proud franchise!
By the way, I can't wait to see Clint Hurdle get the hell out of town. He has managed them to at least 7-10 more losses due strictly to his own poor moves. He is no longer giving this team its best chance to win. Maybe Nutsack ordered Clint to rest Cutch and Ja Hay, so they can get more losses and fall out of the race. That way, he gets less backlash when he trades the teams best player for what will most likely be a couple of hit or miss prospects, later this month.
I'm not sure where you got those numbers from, but some of them are way, way off. When you count in all the bonuses and salary retained in trades, last season the Pirates actually spent $106 million on payroll.
On the other hand, I'm not sure where $99 million from 2013 comes from either. The real number is closer to $74 million. Spotrac has the numbers as follows:
2011: $59 million
2012: $62 million
2013: $74 million
2014: $77 million
2015: $105 million
2016: $106 million
2017: $111 million
However it looks like they are including the full value of both Marte's and Kang's contracts, and the Pirates won't actually have to pay full value on either of them. If you take off Kang's salary for the full season (I'm assuming he won't play here all year) and half of Marte's salary (the games he is suspended) it would come to $106 million.
Went to Citizens Bank Park and saw my beloved Bucs get waxed tonight by the juggernaut Phillies...what a total collection of rancid garbage Nutsack rolls out on to the field...pathetic, just pathetic....managed 4 hits against a slop curve baller who may on occasion have thrown a ball or two over 85mph. I think the team is in a malaise because they see the fire sale coming and the light bulb has gone on and they recognize the guy who signs their check is a fraud. Why would anyone pay money more than once to watch this crap?
That's what the baseball analysts promised us...
One of the best minor leagues in baseball only problem is where are they now?
Also promised
giving away Walker for what has officially turned out to be nothing was a good thing ....or that nobody's worth signing in FA save for maybe Ike Frickin Davis.
Attendance is trending to around 600k fewer than 2 yrs ago .....
that'll be solved via payroll (the only time payroll matters)
Wait till you see the team they put on the field next year it may resemble the Washington Wild Things.
Baseball reference.com. We all know the numbers are from a "point of time". I believe it was opening day roster salaries. Not sure. But I do know you can have 5 different websites and produce 5 different values. I just didn't feel the effort nor the time needed for the point to average those 5 websites and have a normalized salary. However, the curve/chart along with the salary position of bottom rung is what is important. When you are in the top half of MLB in attendance and bottom third in payroll, well you aren't doing what you said you would.
Well the Spotrac numbers aren't "point in time" numbers, at least not their end of season numbers. The only way you can get even close to $80 million last season for the Pirates is if those are end of season numbers that don't, for instance, include all the money that the Pirates paid Francisco Liriano and Mark Melancon before they traded them. And of course excluding all the money they paid guys like that just because they weren't on the roster at the end of the season is silly.
Joe, does it really make a difference to my point? You know you are kind of a Rainman savant on this kind of stuff.
You understand that part of your point was about how the Pirates dropped payroll from $99 million in 2013 to $80 million in 2014, right? And how that was unacceptable given where the team was in 13/14, right? And you get that that makes the fact that it didn't actually happen kind of relevant, right?
Right. Joe, I am not writing an article for Encyclopedia Britannica. Your focus on the minutiae is again Rainman like. It is weird. I forget did we ever meet at some of the tailgate parties? Because I forget if I spilled my matchbox and you had the correct count.
In the darkest of times, people who knew me would ask me about the Pirates. And I would be realistic about the team's chances but say that they were my boys, and as long as the Pirates were in Pittsburgh I would stick with them. And I'd talk up the fun of going to a game, at Three Rivers or the new park. To quote Charlie Brown's sister in the Pumpkin Patch with Linus on Halloween Night... WHAT A FOOL I WAS! My days as an unpaid ambassador for the Bucs are over. For better or worse, all my emotional chips are on the Pitt Panthers.
Cutch continuing to up his value......... So the Pirates can get more prospects like Polanco and Glasnow to hold onto and not develop and not trade for real BB players. The circle of Nutting continues.
Nutting wants to hand this Cash Cow over to his kids.
They'll own the franchise for our lifetimes possibly.
He turned down Casino licenses to keep the Pirates.
Where will all y'all keep all your Bobbleheads and T shirts?
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Hey, look, I get it. You like posting numbers to back up your opinions even if you have to use incorrect ones to make your point. And you get pissed off when someone points out that your numbers are wrong. The funny thing is you didn't even need the numbers to make the point you were trying to make, so why get so mad when someone points out your numbers are wrong?
Again, how many matchsticks are on the floor Joe? I just quoted a website. But the individual numbers really weren't that number. You could make a chart without values on the Y axis to show the same thing.
I guess that's the difference between the two of us. If there are 20 matchsticks on the ground I can say "hey, there's about 20 matchsticks there." You look at it and say "I don't know, it looks like there's five of them to me." And then tomorrow you'd look at the same pile and say "hey, where did those 50 matchsticks come from?"
I perfectly fine being known as someone who uses real, actual numbers to help make my arguments. If you are fine with using numbers that are obviously wrong to make yours, why do you care?
And I just bet another poster $5 that you would chime in. Thank you. Predictable.
Joe I get it. It is important for you to be exacting and to point out other's errors in your mind. Again, I chose one web site. You chose another. I am sorry I didn't reference 5 websites and take the aggregate average. By the way, you found a job, right?
Granted I have not read every post in this thread (because most of you are absolutely intolerable and you act like the sun is not going to rise tomorrow.)
However, I have to say Huntington has done well with what he has been given. The 2017 pirates *should* have been good. The rotation should have set up with cole and taillon at the top. Nick Kingham should have been the third starter but unfortunately the young pitchers have been crushed by injury. Am for anyone who knows baseball, Chad Kuhl has absolutely nasty stuff. He is the one young pitcher that I'm shocked hasn't developed under serrage but he's still young.
As much as a disaster as polonco has been at the plate, he's played quality defense and is a serviceable third outfielder. This lineup would have hit enough with Kang and Marte to compete for a wildcard spot. You're missing roughly 40 homers between the two of them. Marte is a gold glove outfielder and Kang is more than serviceable.
I have never questioned Huntington on keeping prospects. That's how teams like the cards had such longevity.
My biggest criticism of Huntington has been his constant need to hold onto Alen Hansen. He was never going to be the SS of the future and I have no idea why we didn't move him.
With that being said, I don't think the window is closed on this team. I read earlier that someone said moving cutch would be a "baseball" move. And I highly disagree. With majority of the teams in contention not needed an outfielder I think it's a terrible idea to try and move him.
i honestly do believe that next years team ( with the addition of a quality pitcher) is a playoff contender.
However, I have to say Huntington has done well with what he has been given. The 2017 pirates *should* have been good. The rotation should have set up with cole and taillon at the top. Nick Kingham should have been the third starter but unfortunately the young pitchers have been crushed by injury. Am for anyone who knows baseball, Chad Kuhl has absolutely nasty stuff. He is the one young pitcher that I'm shocked hasn't developed under serrage but he's still young.
As much as a disaster as polonco has been at the plate, he's played quality defense and is a serviceable third outfielder. This lineup would have hit enough with Kang and Marte to compete for a wildcard spot. You're missing roughly 40 homers between the two of them. Marte is a gold glove outfielder and Kang is more than serviceable.
I have never questioned Huntington on keeping prospects. That's how teams like the cards had such longevity.
My biggest criticism of Huntington has been his constant need to hold onto Alen Hansen. He was never going to be the SS of the future and I have no idea why we didn't move him.
With that being said, I don't think the window is closed on this team. I read earlier that someone said moving cutch would be a "baseball" move. And I highly disagree. With majority of the teams in contention not needed an outfielder I think it's a terrible idea to try and move him.
i honestly do believe that next years team ( with the addition of a quality pitcher) is a playoff contender.
His problem is the same as it was when he was in the minors. As the scouts said about him then, he doesn't have any pitches that are going to get left handers out on a consistent basis. Unless and until he develops a pitch that can get lefties out he is never going to be more than he is now, which is a back end of the rotation starter at best.
You used numbers that were obviously wrong to try to make a point. You don't have to average five different sites to get the correct number, all you need to do is to look at one that accounts for all the money the Pirates spent on players and not just how much the players who were on the roster at the end of the season would have cost had the been on the roster the whole season and no other players had been on the roster all year.
I mean seriously, you pay enough attention to the Pirates to have opinions on their prospect and what they should and shouldn't be doing, but at the same time you pay so little attention that when you saw that $80 million figure from last season your first thought wasn't "damn, that seems way too low"? And if you are paying so little attention to the payroll that it wasn't obvious right from the start that that number was way off then why even bother to comment on it in the first place?
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