OT: Pirates

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

The Pirates have also drafted to stay away from higher priced guys with good agents.

That's not true anymore. There is "slotted" prices. A team can only pay so much depending on the draft position. In fact, the Pirates were one of the team who was paying over slot (see Josh Bell) that other teams were complaining about. So yeah, back in the late 90's and early to mid 2000's, this was true. But as much as I rag on this group and Nutting, I can't blame them for drafting cheap guys. Not since Tony Sanchez over 10 years ago have they done this.

 

[FreeportPanther]

People just hammer the "Nutting's Wallet" angle and rightfully so. But there is so much more than this to what ails this franchise. Their drafting and scouting has been largely horrendous. Last year someone did some study where the Pirates ranked near the bottom of games started by homegrown players, or something like that.

Sure...when they are drafting in the top 5, they got some players. They did well with Cutch and Walker, but that was a previous regime.

Let's look at the BMTIS's draft's.

2018: 10th overall Travis Swaggerty. Haven't heard his name mentioned since he was drafed. 26th overall, Gunner Hogland. Unsigned. And so it goes.
2017: 12th overall, Shane Baz. Traded. 42nd overall Steven Jennings. ??
2016: 22nd overall, Will Craig (not exactly lighting it up) 41st overall, Nick Lodolo, unsigned (and so it goes again).
2015: 19th overall, Kevin Newman (I will bet $100 this guy never is a MLB regular) 32nd overall, Ke'Bryan Hayes. OKay, this looks like a great pick.
2014: 24th overall Cole Tucker (maybe has a shot) 39th overall Connor Joe (is he on anyone's radar?) 61st overall Mitch Keller, YAY...that's 2.
2013: 9th overall Austin Meadows (traded but looks like a player) 14th overall Reese McGuire (traded to save money and still not a good prospect)
2012: 8th overall, Mark Appel (never signed and one of baseball's biggest busts), 45th Barrett Barnes (who??)
2011: Garrit Cole. OK, a monkey could have made this pick. Josh Bell, been a disappointment.
2010: 2nd overall Jameson Taillon (good pick, but again a monkey could have made this and Manny Machado would have been a better pick) 52 overall Stetson Allie (next?).

Yikes. Just horrible. You can go on the cheap, if you draft, sign and develop your own talent. But the Pirates frankly haven't. And this group in charge got an extension. Just horrible. So it isn't just being cheap, it is also being bad at your jobs by management.

I wonder how much success other franchises have with their player drafts?
I don't have the time or inclination of analyzing all the teams and their rosters compared to their drafting, but I suspect it is pretty similar to the Pirates.

Picking HS kids and projecting them 5 years down the road is a pretty dicey situation once you get past maybe the first 20 or so prospects. You see lots of first round busts and a ton of under the radar guys who become superstars! Talk about an inexact science.

You've made the point a gazillion times about not trading prospects for players back in the 98 win season, and history has proven that to be correct.

They waited forever for Austin Meadows to break through, but he was always hurt or didn't cut the mustard when given the chance. OF course now he'll turn into Steven Trout for Tampa. But Archer looks like a quality starter so that's a good trade in my opinion.

Baseball draft is much much more of a crapshoot than NFL, and even there you have plenty of busts.
Huntington is a slick talker, saber guy I guess, but he's made some decent moves. Getting Archer, getting Dickerson, Trevor Williams, and Cervelli are solid.

He's always shopping in the bargain basement, so it is much harder of course. Like swimming across Lake Erie with an anvil on your back.

 

[happjack]

Baseball started earlier than ever. Always wondered why the scheduling geniuses don't put the majority of these early games in the warm weather venues or in the domed stadiums?
Most of the sellout crowd froze out yesterday. Only were there for about half of it. By the last out, only about 1/3 of those in attendance were still there. (Good thing for the 2/3 who left and didn't have to watch the collapse.)

With the exception of Atlanta playing at Philly last week, all of the warm weather and dome teams hosted "Opening Day" and first weekend of the season. Teams really don't want to do a long road trip to start the season, the luster sort of wears off and there's less interest if a team is 2-8 or even 4-6 when they have their home opener. MLB will never do it but they need to go back to 154 games and start the season in mid-April, outside of the home opener all these stadiums are empty the first two to three weeks of the season.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Interesting work there.

Not as complex but what about the development of guys like Matre, Polanco, Bell and all these arms the Saber Geniuses promised would be here.

The development in the Majors is C or C-, a real killer imo.

Well again, Marte was scouted and signed by the previous regime. But yeah, he and Polanco, as talented as they are, are amongst the lowest baseball IQ players I have seen. I wondered if they came up through the Cardinals organization what kind of players would they be. Josh Bell, he needs to go to the AL where he can just concentrate on hitting. But you have to be concerned about the development of the Pirates talents.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

With the exception of Atlanta playing at Philly last week, all of the warm weather and dome teams hosted "Opening Day" and first weekend of the season. Teams really don't want to do a long road trip to start the season, the luster sort of wears off and there's less interest if a team is 2-8 or even 4-6 when they have their home opener. MLB will never do it but they need to go back to 154 games and start the season in mid-April, outside of the home opener all these stadiums are empty the first two to three weeks of the season.

The problem is, a lot of the "warm weather" teams played other "warm weather" teams.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Well again, Marte was scouted and signed by the previous regime. But yeah, he and Polanco, as talented as they are, are amongst the lowest baseball IQ players I have seen. I wondered if they came up through the Cardinals organization what kind of players would they be. Josh Bell, he needs to go to the AL where he can just concentrate on hitting. But you have to be concerned about the development of the Pirates talents.

Remember, Josh Bell was an outfielder his entire career. The Pirates converted him to 1B rather recently because of their glaring need there.
They haven't had a decent 1B for, well forever!

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

Remember, Josh Bell was an outfielder his entire career. The Pirates converted him to 1B rather recently because of their glaring need there.
They haven't had a decent 1B for, well forever!

Defensive skills for a first basemen is grossly overrated. Frustrates me when baseball purists try and preach the importance of defensive skill sets for a first basemen.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Defensive skills for a first basemen is grossly overrated. Frustrates me when baseball purists try and preach the importance of defensive skill sets for a first basemen.

Red Sox fans would disagree.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I wonder how much success other franchises have with their player drafts?
I don't have the time or inclination of analyzing all the teams and their rosters compared to their drafting, but I suspect it is pretty similar to the Pirates.

Picking HS kids and projecting them 5 years down the road is a pretty dicey situation once you get past maybe the first 20 or so prospects. You see lots of first round busts and a ton of under the radar guys who become superstars! Talk about an inexact science.

You've made the point a gazillion times about not trading prospects for players back in the 98 win season, and history has proven that to be correct.

They waited forever for Austin Meadows to break through, but he was always hurt or didn't cut the mustard when given the chance. OF course now he'll turn into Steven Trout for Tampa. But Archer looks like a quality starter so that's a good trade in my opinion.

Baseball draft is much much more of a crapshoot than NFL, and even there you have plenty of busts.
Huntington is a slick talker, saber guy I guess, but he's made some decent moves. Getting Archer, getting Dickerson, Trevor Williams, and Cervelli are solid.

He's always shopping in the bargain basement, so it is much harder of course. Like swimming across Lake Erie with an anvil on your back.

Sure it is. But man, you see a franchise like Houston willing to crash it all down, drafted and developed really well, Atlanta has really traded, drafted and developed well, even the Yankees got Aaron Judge with the 32nd pick. The Cards got Michael Waucha and Kolten Wong in the 1st rd around the same spots the Pirates picked Kevin Newman in his draft year.

But yeah, definite crapshoot, you see a lot of names only their mothers would know, a lot of empty numbers in the MLB stats category of players who never made it.

But again FP, to answer your question, and I apologize I can't quote the source or the exact metric, but I remember hearing that the Pirates were at the bottom (by this I am not sure if they worst or bottom 3-4) of homegrown (drafted or signed) players and the innings they played in the majors. So, that would give you some idea on how they are doing.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Defensive skills for a first basemen is grossly overrated. Frustrates me when baseball purists try and preach the importance of defensive skill sets for a first basemen.

Oh, I agree. But if Bell is only hitting like 12-15 HR's and a .250 batting average, well defensive lapses are definitely more concerning.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

Red Sox fans would disagree.

lol, touche..

 

[pittdan77]

That's not true anymore. There is "slotted" prices. A team can only pay so much depending on the draft position. In fact, the Pirates were one of the team who was paying over slot (see Josh Bell) that other teams were complaining about. So yeah, back in the late 90's and early to mid 2000's, this was true. But as much as I rag on this group and Nutting, I can't blame them for drafting cheap guys. Not since Tony Sanchez over 10 years ago have they done this.

Okay. I didn't know that. But it was a thing for them.

 

[pittdan77]

Remember, Josh Bell was an outfielder his entire career. The Pirates converted him to 1B rather recently because of their glaring need there.
They haven't had a decent 1B for, well forever!

Like, Kevin Young or further back?

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

Like, Kevin Young or further back?

Kevin young was sweet. How bout this guy?

 

[FreeportPanther]

Sure it is. But man, you see a franchise like Houston willing to crash it all down, drafted and developed really well, Atlanta has really traded, drafted and developed well, even the Yankees got Aaron Judge with the 32nd pick. The Cards got Michael Waucha and Kolten Wong in the 1st rd around the same spots the Pirates picked Kevin Newman in his draft year.

But yeah, definite crapshoot, you see a lot of names only their mothers would know, a lot of empty numbers in the MLB stats category of players who never made it.

But again FP, to answer your question, and I apologize I can't quote the source or the exact metric, but I remember hearing that the Pirates were at the bottom (by this I am not sure if they worst or bottom 3-4) of homegrown (drafted or signed) players and the innings they played in the majors. So, that would give you some idea on how they are doing.

The Pirates farm system is ranked at 15 out of 30 franchises.
Would have been higher, but the Archer trade took 3 top prospects.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Like, Kevin Young or further back?

Like Dick Stuart.

Just kidding. Swervin would have LOVED that guy. Dr. Strangeglove!

Probably Al Oliver or Bob Robertson.

 

[pittdan77]

Kevin young was sweet. How bout this guy?

Kevin Young was always maligned by fans but he was actually a pretty good player on some really crappy teams.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

Kevin Young was always maligned by fans but he was actually a pretty good player on some really crappy teams.

his numbers in '98 and '99 were legit, real legit. 25+ HRs, 100+Rbis. His '99 year was MVP (esque).

 

[FreeportPanther]

Kevin Young was always maligned by fans but he was actually a pretty good player on some really crappy teams.

He was a good fielder, but only had 2 good years at the plate.
1B is a power hitting and RBI position. Young hit over 20 HR's and drove in over 100 twice. Not enough production.

 

[pittdan77]

Like Dick Stuart.

Just kidding. Swervin would have LOVED that guy. Dr. Strangeglove!

Probably Al Oliver or Bob Robertson.

It's no kidding that the club has struggled to find a good, everyday player there.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

im still waiting for our infield of the future, the one that was to open up PNC in '01. Ramirez, Hermanson, nunez and ron Wright.. Pirates scouts said Hermanson can "walk on water" so I have faith he'll be great for us..

 

[FreeportPanther]

im still waiting for our infield of the future, the one that was to open up PNC in '01. Ramirez, Hermanson, nunez and ron Wright.. Pirates scouts said Hermanson can "walk on water" so I have faith he'll be great for us..

The Pirates actually have 2 really good AAA SS prospects and a top flight 3B prospect at Indy.
But in typical Pirate fashion, they didn't come north because it would have cost the club a year of control and hastened their arbitration eligibility. Those are the games Nutting's cheapness necessitate.
Same with their top pitching prospect who is ML ready. So we get Joe Musgrove in the rotation or Steven Brault.

The Bucco's always have a huge stable of AAAA players. Too good for AAA but not quite good enough for ML.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

The Pirates farm system is ranked at 15 out of 30 franchises.
Would have been higher, but the Archer trade took 3 top prospects.

Yeah, but these guys get here and.......... Remember only a few years ago with Bell, Polanco, Glasnow, Meadows, Hansen, Taillon, their farm system was ranked like top 5.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Yeah, but these guys get here and.......... Remember only a few years ago with Bell, Polanco, Glasnow, Meadows, Hansen, Taillon, their farm system was ranked like top 5.

Bell, Polanco and Taillon are starters here.
Glasnow and Meadows = Archer a #3 starter at minimum.
Isn't that how it's supposed to work?

 

[BuffetParrothead]

It's still baseball, a team we can support??, peanuts, popcorn, crackerjack, and Iron City Beer.
Right. I think that's how the song goes?

Don't worry with a little coaching they'll learn how to catch a baseball - get in front of the ball kid- catch it- crow hop and throw it to first base- no I said first base?????

They'll get it! It's a long season approximately 648 hrs / 28 mins of baseball. Almost anyone will improve in that timeframe.

Go Bucs! I'm still sitting here waiting for the next game. Beer guy over here!

"it's five o'clock somewhere"
Signed: Mr Buffett
Go PITT & CSU Rams

 

[Ski11585]

4 and a half hours and counting.... Game 1 of 162. LOL.

You sure about that?

That’s a bingo

Just pathetic....

What are all those Saber Geniuses Neal hired...sitting on their nuts playing Fortnight??

You’re spot on about the fielding I’ve been watching baseball since age 5 I’ve never seen balls in play so absolutely hacked. Top flight Little League teams look better.

This is just ridiculous.

Boy I’m so glad I wasted all that time reading here all those goofy metrics the Saber guys were blowing out their arse while telling everybody else they were stupid.

Because the past two yrs were real validation of their BS

Do you have any actual, substantive critiques of the use of sabermetrics in baseball? Or is the extent of your abilities typing out "saber geniuses" over and over?

I'll hang up and listen.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Bell, Polanco and Taillon are starters here.
Glasnow and Meadows = Archer a #3 starter at minimum.
Isn't that how it's supposed to work?

But they aren't STARS as they were supposed to be.

And if Meadows, Glasnow turn into upper level MLB players, and Bell and Polanco just stay middling players, you also have to look not just at the scouting/player evaluation, but who the hell is developing and coaching these guys??

 

[paulbl99]

You sure about that?



Do you have any actual, substantive critiques of the use of sabermetrics in baseball? Or is the extent of your abilities typing out "saber geniuses" over and over?

I'll hang up and listen.

No I only have a memory of those smart assholes who name called anyone who questioned their infinite superiority

When turns out they didn’t know their elbows from third base on what the pirates and nutting were really up to w the subsequent results.

That’s funny I’ll hang up and listen

Did you just make that up

Lol

 

[pitt2533]

But they aren't STARS as they were supposed to be.

And if Meadows, Glasnow turn into upper level MLB players, and Bell and Polanco just stay middling players, you also have to look not just at the scouting/player evaluation, but who the hell is developing and coaching these guys??

I have said that for years especially around the Position players. For the most part, the pitchers developed pretty well under this regime. The position players on the other hand have not. Yes guys like Bell and Polanco are starters but neither of them have lived up to their hype to this point. We heard about superstar potential with them and neither are in that category.

 

[paulbl99]

I have said that for years especially around the Position players. For the most part, the pitchers developed pretty well under this regime. The position players on the other hand have not. Yes guys like Bell and Polanco are starters but neither of them have lived up to their hype to this point. We heard about superstar potential with them and neither are in that category.

Both Marte and Polanco were talked up bigly with their 5 tools like we were gettin a Harper or Trout. They may be starters but they don’t exactly light it up.....don’t know what to think about Bell yet.

Not as convinced about the development of pitchers as you. Think that’s not the big deal the Pirates tooted

 

[pitt2533]

Both Marte and Polanco were talked up bigly with their 5 tools like we were gettin a Harper or Trout. They may be starters but they don’t exactly light it up.....don’t know what to think about Bell yet.

Not as convinced about the development of pitchers as you. Think that’s not the big deal the Pirates tooted

I am higher on Marte because of his defense and ability to steal a ton of bases. He definitely has way too many mental lapses though and certainly has more in the tank so to speak. He could be a superstar but he doesn't have the mental drive to be that.

Polanco shows glimpses but is way to inconsistent.

Pitchers have been mostly good under this regime although I admit not great either. They definitely missed on some like Glasnow and even guys like Cole seemed to take next step after leaving so I do get your apprehension regarding the pitching development.

 

[Ski11585]

No I only have a memory of those smart assholes who name called anyone who questioned their infinite superiority

When turns out they didn’t know their elbows from third base on what the pirates and nutting were really up to w the subsequent results.

That’s funny I’ll hang up and listen

Did you just make that up

Lol

So that’s a no. Much like your political posts, you have no real substance here. Just second rate insults.

At least Del is clever once in a blue moon.

 

[pittdan77]

Bell, Polanco and Taillon are starters here.
Glasnow and Meadows = Archer a #3 starter at minimum.
Isn't that how it's supposed to work?

I've always thought the Pirates get credit for having a "top" minor league because they just hoard their prospects. If you do that, you'll probably hit on a few serviceable guys but they're not churning out championships because you have to make trades for late season help and sign free agents that matter. I think the minors are the "hook" that keep fans interested. If you dangle enough prospects to this fan base, you get credit for building something. I mean, Pirate fans are down to enjoying the atmosphere and clamoring for the what if's of June call-ups and trash heap acquisitions.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I've always thought the Pirates get credit for having a "top" minor league because they just hoard their prospects. If you do that, you'll probably hit on a few serviceable guys but they're not churning out championships because you have to make trades for late season help and sign free agents that matter. I think the minors are the "hook" that keep fans interested. If you dangle enough prospects to this fan base, you get credit for building something. I mean, Pirate fans are down to enjoying the atmosphere and clamoring for the what if's of June call-ups and trash heap acquisitions.

Chris Archer is a perfect example of "prospects". Basically, for that package 2 years prior, you could have gotten Chris Sale. Glasnow was already dying on the vine and Meadows was an uncertainty.

So good on the Pirates for trading prospects for a bonafide starter, but again, they likely waited too long rather than dumped them too soon.

 

[h2p_5150]

Out of all the position players Neil Huntington has drafted in his 12 year career JORDY MERCER has the highest WAR. Anyone trying to defend his drafting abilities is dead wrong. If he hadn't inherited McCutchen from the prior regime he would be selling insurance right now.

 

[paulbl99]

Out of all the position players Neil Huntington has drafted in his 12 year career JORDY MERCER has the highest WAR. Anyone trying to defend his drafting abilities is dead wrong. If he hadn't inherited McCutchen from the prior regime he would be selling insurance right now.

Spot on....

So that’s a no. Much like your political posts, you have no real substance here. Just second rate insults.

At least Del is clever once in a blue moon.

Turned out I had more substance than the name calling smug Saber Geniuses

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

2018: 10th overall Travis Swaggerty. Haven't heard his name mentioned since he was drafed.

While I completely agree with your overall point in the post this comes from, Swaggerty was actually in each of the three or four different top prospects list that I saw this spring. Which, of course, doesn't guarantee anything. Obviously it's way too early to make any judgements on guys drafted last summer, but there is no reason to think that he wasn't a good pick at this point, other than the Pirates general ineptitude at drafting.

 

[Ski11585]

Spot on....

Turned out I had more substance than the name calling smug Saber Geniuses

Again. What substance?

 

[pitt2533]

Hurdle is beyond putrid game day manager. Last night was just another example.