OT: Pirates

[FreeportPanther]

Hurdle is beyond putrid game day manager. Last night was just another example.

Because he went to the bullpen after the starter went 7 innings?
So far, the bullpen sucks.
If that doesn't change, and soon, it is a 100 + season loss.

I'm pretty lukewarm on Hurdle because I don't think a manager adds or subtracts much. He is a baseball cliche wind up doll who makes out a lineup from a shitty roster. He's the least of their problems.

Due to injuries and weak bench, he had a senior citizen in RF and an unknown in LF.
The Pirates can't score runs or hold late leads. That is a formula for disaster that has nothing to do with Hurdle at least at this point. If you want to hold him responsible for the roster, fine, but that's more an organizational thing.

 

[CCHS82]

Hurdle is beyond putrid game day manager. Last night was just another example.

Do I sacrifice or not? Straight steal? Yes! No! Yes! Wait, maybe? Final answer.....no and a strikeout results.

Poorest tactical manager that I have ever seen. Guy has no clue how to manufacture a run.

 

[pittbb80]

Because he went to the bullpen after the starter went 7 innings?
So far, the bullpen sucks.
If that doesn't change, and soon, it is a 100 + season loss.

I'm pretty lukewarm on Hurdle because I don't think a manager adds or subtracts much. He is a baseball cliche wind up doll who makes out a lineup from a shitty roster. He's the least of their problems.

Due to injuries and weak bench, he had a senior citizen in RF and an unknown in RF.
The Pirates can't score runs or hold late leads. That is a formula for disaster that has nothing to do with Hurdle at least at this point. If you want to hold him responsible for the roster, fine, but that's more an organizational thing.

Couldn’t agree more. Players make the manager and the pirates just don’t have enough. Way too many holes on the roster

 

[paulbl99]

Hurdle is beyond putrid game day manager. Last night was just another example.

Did you see the bushers and tomato cans the Bucs threw out there last night......and washed up over the hillers.

But I guess they have nice launch angles.....

 

[FreeportPanther]

Did you see the bushers and tomato cans the Bucs threw out there last night......and washed up over the hillers.

But I guess they have nice launch angles.....

Yes, it was a pretty pathetic lineup.
Even so, the Pirates had late leads in all of their 3 losses so far.
Given past performance, the back end of the bullpen SHOULD be solid, and had been last year. Rodriguez, Kela, and Vasquez are there to pitch the 7th, 8th and 9th innings. They haven't gotten the job done.

Liriano is washed up, can't throw strikes. He has no business being on the roster.
Burdi is a rule 5 with a live power arm. He's been pretty decent even though he's been thrown into rough situations for a neophyte.

So far, the starters have performed as advertised. All quality starts.

Can't judge the starters until they're all on the field. Too early to say Bell and Marte won't have decent seasons. So far, they've failed in some crucial situations at the plate, but it's early.

Shortstop played much better last night, and hit a little. Frazier had a good night, and Kang went yard so there's that.

Shuck and Cabrera aren't there to start, that's for sure, but with Chisenhall and Polanco out and Dickerson having some arm problems, they're forced in. Those guys are supposed to be late inning PH'ers and spot starters at best. Still one of the weakest benches in all of baseball though.

This team isn't going to score 10 runs every night, but they can scratch out 3 or 4, and when they have a lead in the 7th, the pen needs to save the game!

 

[pittdan77]

Do I sacrifice or not? Straight steal? Yes! No! Yes! Wait, maybe? Final answer.....no and a strikeout results.

Poorest tactical manager that I have ever seen. Guy has no clue how to manufacture a run.

It's kind of like going to battle with half an army. I can imagine him standing there knowing what he probably should do but has little faith it can be executed at times.

 

[pittdan77]

Speaking of managers, why do they wear the same uniforms as the players? Imagine Andy Reid in shoulder pads and football pants or maybe Gregg Popovich in shorts and a basketball shirt.

 

[pitt2533]

Because he went to the bullpen after the starter went 7 innings?
So far, the bullpen sucks.
If that doesn't change, and soon, it is a 100 + season loss.

I'm pretty lukewarm on Hurdle because I don't think a manager adds or subtracts much. He is a baseball cliche wind up doll who makes out a lineup from a shitty roster. He's the least of their problems.

Due to injuries and weak bench, he had a senior citizen in RF and an unknown in LF.
The Pirates can't score runs or hold late leads. That is a formula for disaster that has nothing to do with Hurdle at least at this point. If you want to hold him responsible for the roster, fine, but that's more an organizational thing.

Last night was more about not bunting Reyes in the Bottom of the 9th with a guy on 2nd and no outs. Just dumb especially when you have so many reserves in the lineup due to injuries.

You bunt Gonzalez over to 3rd without question there. Yes the Cardinals are going to then walk next 2 batters to get to Cerveli but I would rather take my chances on Cervelli a veteran legit offensive player in that situation with bases loaded and 1 out.

His use of the bullpen normally is terrible too although last night I had no issues going to Kela in the 8th with a 2 run lead. He is a legit bullpen guy and you don't expect him to blow that lead. But on the flip side, Nick freaking Burdi has 3 appearances in 4 games to this point and 2 of them against the Cards in tight games. I know Rodriguez is struggling but is Burdi a rule 5 guy really that kind of option to get 3 appearances in all close games? If so, this bullpen is not what they billed it as.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Last night was more about not bunting Reyes in the Bottom of the 9th with a guy on 2nd and no outs. Just dumb especially when you have so many reserves in the lineup due to injuries.

You bunt Gonzalez over to 3rd without question there. Yes the Cardinals are going to then walk next 2 batters to get to Cerveli but I would rather take my chances on Cervelli a veteran legit offensive player in that situation with bases loaded and 1 out.

His use of the bullpen normally is terrible too although last night I had no issues going to Kela in the 8th with a 2 run lead. He is a legit bullpen guy and you don't expect him to blow that lead. But on the flip side, Nick freaking Burdi has 3 appearances in 4 games to this point and 2 of them against the Cards in tight games. I know Rodriguez is struggling but is he really that kind of option? If so, this bullpen is not what they billed it as.

Yes, agree not bunting there was ridiculous. Maybe the player missed the sign? He did attempt a bunt and didn't get it down, I think? I'd have still bunted with 2 strikes there.
Still a guy on second with your 1 and 2 hitters coming up isn't the end of the world. They need a hit there, period.

I get that Burdi is a Rule 5, but he's also been pretty good. He blew the Reds away 1,2,3 the other day. Last night, he put it where Cervelli wanted it.

Need to get Liriano out of here. Brault is a long guy, he is way to wild for a late inning option.
Rodriguez, Kela and Vasquez should be solid 7,8 and 9th inning guys. IF they're not, this team is in big trouble.

They better learn how to win close games, because there are going to be a ton of them this year.

 

[paulbl99]

Yes, it was a pretty pathetic lineup.
Even so, the Pirates had late leads in all of their 3 losses so far.
Given past performance, the back end of the bullpen SHOULD be solid, and had been last year. Rodriguez, Kela, and Vasquez are there to pitch the 7th, 8th and 9th innings. They haven't gotten the job done.

Liriano is washed up, can't throw strikes. He has no business being on the roster.
Burdi is a rule 5 with a live power arm. He's been pretty decent even though he's been thrown into rough situations for a neophyte.

So far, the starters have performed as advertised. All quality starts.

Can't judge the starters until they're all on the field. Too early to say Bell and Marte won't have decent seasons. So far, they've failed in some crucial situations at the plate, but it's early.

Shortstop played much better last night, and hit a little. Frazier had a good night, and Kang went yard so there's that.

Shuck and Cabrera aren't there to start, that's for sure, but with Chisenhall and Polanco out and Dickerson having some arm problems, they're forced in. Those guys are supposed to be late inning PH'ers and spot starters at best. Still one of the weakest benches in all of baseball though.

This team isn't going to score 10 runs every night, but they can scratch out 3 or 4, and when they have a lead in the 7th, the pen needs to save the game!

Spot on

162 is their best friend.

 

[pitt2533]

Yes, agree not bunting there was ridiculous. Maybe the player missed the sign? He did attempt a bunt and didn't get it down, I think? I'd have still bunted with 2 strikes there.
Still a guy on second with your 1 and 2 hitters coming up isn't the end of the world. They need a hit there, period.

I get that Burdi is a Rule 5, but he's also been pretty good. He blew the Reds away 1,2,3 the other day. Last night, he put it where Cervelli wanted it.

Need to get Liriano out of here. Brault is a long guy, he is way to wild for a late inning option.
Rodriguez, Kela and Vasquez should be solid 7,8 and 9th inning guys. IF they're not, this team is in big trouble.

They better learn how to win close games, because there are going to be a ton of them this year.

Yeah clearly the bullpen needs to be better or nothing else will matter.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Team is pretty much hanging around .500, pretty much as expected.
The starting pitching has been lights out, as billed.
The Pen is getting better with Vasquez reverting to form. Kela needs to step it up.

The defense is meh. New SS and 3rd base have been below expectations.

Offense is putrid. Hard to get too critical with 3 of their supposed best hitters on the shelf along with Diaz. That's a big hole.
It's time to pull the plug on the 3rd base Kang/Beard experiment. They both suck, beyond suck.
The answer is right there at AAA in young Hayes, but in typical Nutting/Huntington fashion he won't be called up because that starts his clock ticking. His clock ticks while PIttsburgh burns. I hate this crap!!

Team will probably end up pretty much where they are now. Shame they couldn't put a viable team around that quality starting pitching. Might have been a special season.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

The answer is right there at AAA in young Hayes, but in typical Nutting/Huntington fashion he won't be called up because that starts his clock ticking.

Hayes hadn't played one game about AA before a week and a half ago. There is no team in baseball, literally none, that would have had him on the opening day roster this year given the situation at hand.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Hayes hadn't played one game about AA before a week and a half ago. There is no team in baseball, literally none, that would have had him on the opening day roster this year given the situation at hand.

Thanks for the update Neal.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Thanks for the update Neal.

Similar to what I said before when people wanted to blame Steve Pederson for everything under the sun, including stuff that he obviously had nothing to do with, the Pirates do enough stupid stuff that there is no need to make up stupid stuff to blame them for. And that's exactly what you are doing.

If you think that Hayes should have been with the Pirates at the beginning of the season then you are simply being dumb.

 

[HOF Coach]

Do you think that he is referring to their initials, "A.M."?

 

[FreeportPanther]

Similar to what I said before when people wanted to blame Steve Pederson for everything under the sun, including stuff that he obviously had nothing to do with, the Pirates do enough stupid stuff that there is no need to make up stupid stuff to blame them for. And that's exactly what you are doing.

If you think that Hayes should have been with the Pirates at the beginning of the season then you are simply being dumb.

Did I say at the beginning of the season? No I didn't.
I said the answer is there, but they won't bring him up until they are sure his clock won't start ticking. That's what I said, isn't it Joe???

I'll tell you what is dumb there Joe. It is the Pirates brass coming north with an over the hill drunk and a fumble handed clutz manning the hot corner for a team that pretends to its fans that it wants to contend. That's what's dumb.

Maybe your real name is Josephine and you're Mrs Nutting, or maybe you are Neil Huntington, or just some pretend sabre metric whiz kid, I don't care.
But one thing you are for sure is a sucker for all their PR BS. The Pirates franchise is a fraud and a confidence game and you are obviously an enabler!

 

[paulbl99]

Did I say at the beginning of the season? No I didn't.
I said the answer is there, but they won't bring him up until they are sure his clock won't start ticking. That's what I said, isn't it Joe???

I'll tell you what is dumb there Joe. It is the Pirates brass coming north with an over the hill drunk and a fumble handed clutz manning the hot corner for a team that pretends to its fans that it wants to contend. That's what's dumb.

Maybe your real name is Josephine and you're Mrs Nutting, or maybe you are Neil Huntington, or just some pretend sabre metric whiz kid, I don't care.
But one thing you are for sure is a sucker for all their PR BS. The Pirates franchise is a fraud and a confidence game and you are obviously an enabler!

Lol
Spot on......

 

[303vND]

Well again, Marte was scouted and signed by the previous regime. But yeah, he and Polanco, as talented as they are, are amongst the lowest baseball IQ players I have seen. I wondered if they came up through the Cardinals organization what kind of players would they be. Josh Bell, he needs to go to the AL where he can just concentrate on hitting. But you have to be concerned about the development of the Pirates talents.

THIS! The Pirates are one of if not the worst team in baseball with regards to developing talent and baseball IQ. Just look at Meadows and Glasgnow in Tampa - one offseason and spring training with the Rays and they look like all-stars.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Did I say at the beginning of the season? No I didn't.
I said the answer is there, but they won't bring him up until they are sure his clock won't start ticking. That's what I said, isn't it Joe???

Well then the problem here is that you simply don't know the rules. We are already past the point where his "clock won't start ticking". That has nothing to do with why he isn't here. He has ten days of AAA ball under his belt. Teams almost never bring guys up before they play some time at AAA, and that includes lots of guys who are much better prospects than Hayes.

The funny thing is that I guarantee that if the Pirates had Hayes up and he was hitting 4-42 right now you'd be one of the people bitching because they brought up a guy who clearly wasn't ready to try to fool the fans. Like I said, blame them for the stupid stuff that they actually do, there's plenty of that to chose from.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

The Pirates are one of if not the worst team in baseball with regards to developing talent and baseball IQ.

See, now there's something that the Pirates actually do that you can blame them for.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

The Pirates franchise is a fraud and a confidence game and you are obviously an enabler!

Oh, and by the way, I haven't bought a ticket to a Pirate game in at least five or six years. The last time was years ago when my dad's health was getting so bad that we knew that we weren't going to have many more chances to actually take him to a game. The notion that I somehow enable the Pirates is laughable, but is right in line with your general knowledge, so it's no surprise that you might think that.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Well then the problem here is that you simply don't know the rules. We are already past the point where his "clock won't start ticking". That has nothing to do with why he isn't here. He has ten days of AAA ball under his belt. Teams almost never bring guys up before they play some time at AAA, and that includes lots of guys who are much better prospects than Hayes.

The funny thing is that I guarantee that if the Pirates had Hayes up and he was hitting 4-42 right now you'd be one of the people bitching because they brought up a guy who clearly wasn't ready to try to fool the fans. Like I said, blame them for the stupid stuff that they actually do, there's plenty of that to chose from.

A player needs 172 days on an active roster to gain a year of service toward being arbitration eligible. If they hold him off till after the All Star break, they'll keep him cheap for another year.

The fact that you leap to their defense makes you an enabler. You can guarantee nothing. If he was 4-42 he'd be better than Kang with a brighter future.

Oh and by the way, no one gives a crap.

 

[Ski11585]

This whole notion that people who watch the Pirates or go to games are enablers is ridiculous.

 

[FreeportPanther]

This whole notion that people who watch the Pirates or go to games are enablers is ridiculous.

Ridiculous in your opinion, not in others.

 

[Ski11585]

Ridiculous in your opinion, not in others.

Do you boycott Pitt?

 

[FreeportPanther]

Do you boycott Pitt?

Do you like movies about Gladiators?

 

[Ski11585]

Do you like movies about Gladiators?

I only ask because I wonder what threshold you use to boycott a team that, presumably, isn’t prioritizing winning.

 

[FreeportPanther]

I only ask because I wonder what threshold you use to boycott a team that, presumably, isn’t prioritizing winning.

Stupid analogy.

 

[Ski11585]

Stupid analogy.

Why?

 

[FreeportPanther]

Why?

Pitt isn't controlled by a greedy owner.

 

[Parkview57]

Pitt isn't controlled by a greedy owner.

Serious Crickets

 

[Ski11585]

Serious Crickets

Ok. Cool. What’s the invisible threshold where they “try hard enough?”

Also pro tip: all owners are greedy.

 

[BuffetParrothead]

Ok. Cool. What’s the invisible threshold where they “try hard enough?”

Also pro tip: all owners are greedy.

All owners are in business to make a lot of money.

Owning a baseball team or any other sports franchise is a business not a charity.

I say after learning that Nutting has increased the value of his business by $ 1 bill doing what he's doing and holding down spending that he's maximixing his ROI and payback.

 

[paulbl99]

All owners are in business to make a lot of money.

Owning a baseball team or any other sports franchise is a business not a charity.

I say after learning that Nutting has increased the value of his business by $ 1 bill doing what he's doing and holding down spending that he's maximixing his ROI and payback.

Not quite though....

It’s more than a business imo

The Pirates were built a stadium costing over 100M which Nutting had to put up almost nuttin
It’s not the First National Bucco Bank with the sole purpose of Nutting pulling X very large out of it every yr at his whim.
It’s a community trust in a sense he Sb minding. Not saying he should lose money but he is far far far from losing money....Sb acting more w a sense of commitment to The Pittsburgh Pirates not just his wallet.

 

[BuffetParrothead]

Not quite though....

It’s more than a business imo

The Pirates were built a stadium costing over 100M which Nutting had to put up almost nuttin
It’s not the First National Bucco Bank with the sole purpose of Nutting pulling X very large out of it every yr at his whim.
It’s a community trust in a sense he Sb minding. Not saying he should lose money but he is far far far from losing money....Sb acting more w a sense of commitment to The Pittsburgh Pirates not just his wallet.

I think owners should foot the bill for their own stadiums.

But.

Nuttng and the Pirates will tell you that they created an economy on the Northshore that wouldn't be there without them from Aprii- October until football starts.
They'll also say they created jobs and lots of business in restaurants, bars, hotels, and real estate developers on the Northshore.

Maybe the owner should have a sense of commitment but it's the owners decision since expenditures on the team are the owners capital.

If an owner can Max out profits and increase the value of his business by investing the minimum amount of capital that's what the owner should do.
Unless the owner decides not to go that way.

 

[paulbl99]

I think owners should foot the bill for their own stadiums.

But.

Nuttng and the Pirates will tell you that they created an economy on the Northshore that wouldn't be there without them from Aprii- October until football starts.
They'll also say they created jobs and lots of business in restaurants, bars, hotels, and real estate developers on the Northshore.

Maybe the owner should have a sense of commitment but it's the owners decision since expenditures on the team are the owners capital.

If an owner can Max out profits and increase the value of his business by investing the minimum amount of capital that's what the owner should do.
Unless the owner decides not to go that way.

Technically it’s hard to argue against your point...maybe it’s crazy to view a baseball team as anything other than a business.
It’s just that to me it’s more than that and Nutting has little capital at risk. Sure he can miss on contracts but he has that backed up you can bet that.

He’s only going to make or lose and with him it is make make make make ....

 

[FreeportPanther]

Not quite though....

It’s more than a business imo

The Pirates were built a stadium costing over 100M which Nutting had to put up almost nuttin
It’s not the First National Bucco Bank with the sole purpose of Nutting pulling X very large out of it every yr at his whim.
It’s a community trust in a sense he Sb minding. Not saying he should lose money but he is far far far from losing money....Sb acting more w a sense of commitment to The Pittsburgh Pirates not just his wallet.

He could simply break even in the day to day running of the franchise, or even operate in deficit and STILL make a huge profit. The franchise's value has increased to over a BILLION dollars.
Let that sink in. A BILLION DOLLARS!!!!

Instead of investing money in player procurement/retention, Nutting adjusts the payroll to the gate. Less people show up, less payroll is authorized.
He doesn't seem to understand that putting a quality product on the field would increase attendance and allow for increases in ticket prices, both of which would enhance revenue. Not to mention increased concession and merchandise sales from the larger crowds and piqued interest. But that would require an element of risk, and Nutting likes a sure thing!

His profit is ensured before the first pitch is thrown thanks to the luxury tax payment to small franchise teams.

Somehow, they have assembled a decent starting pitching staff at a ridiculously low (by MLB standards) price. Then they surround them with a bunch of has beens or never was position players!
The deck is already stacked against the small market teams, but having an owner like this really sinks the ship.
Forever the Washington Generals!

 

[BuffetParrothead]

Technically it’s hard to argue against your point...maybe it’s crazy to view a baseball team as anything other than a business.
It’s just that to me it’s more than that and Nutting has almost no capital at risk.

He’s only going to make or lose and with him it is make make make make ....

You're correct in the sense that he should have more commitment to Pittsburgh and Pirates fans.
The problem is that cities fork out lots of money on stadiums for pro teams without any performance milestones or contractual hooks that force an owner to produce results.

It ends up being a business and if the owner doesn't feel a connection to the city or fans he can run the team into the ground spend little and still make money, and increase the value of his investment.

In the end it comes down to being a bad investment by the city.

Pro teams should pay for their stadiums or have an agreement with the city that paid for thier home/stadium that links on the field performance to city stadium money.

 

[FreeportPanther]

You're correct in the sense that he should have more commitment to Pittsburgh and Pirates fans.
The problem is that cities fork out lots of money on stadiums for pro teams without any performance milestones or contractual hooks that force an owner to produce results.

It ends up being a business and if the owner doesn't feel a connection to the city or fans he can run the team into the ground spend little and still make money, and increase the value of his investment.

In the end it comes down to being a bad investment by the city.

Pro teams should pay for their stadiums or have an agreement with the city that paid for thier home/stadium that links on the field performance to city stadium money.

Cities are held hostage by pro franchises. Having a professional team in your city is a huge status symbol and separates the city from similar cities. That's why they are coveted.

The Pirates threatened to leave Pittsburgh without a new stadium. The City/County/State acquiesced to their blackmail and built PNC Park. In return, the Pirates signed a long term lease that guaranteed their presence in Pittsburgh for decades into the future. That was the payoff.

The only discussion of performance was the idle chatter from the Pirates that with the enhanced revenue the new stadium would bring in, there would be much more money for player development/retention and the money would be pumped back into the team.
Well, we all know how that worked out don't we?

The City/taxpayers did their part. PNC Park is a gem and routinely rated one of the top 5 baseball parks in the country. Unfortunately, it is stocked with a AAAA team most years.
Nutting holds all the aces and plans to pass the franchise on to his daughters so future generations of Pirate fans can enjoy their "success".