OT: The USWNT equal pay thing

[Sean Miller Fan]

The main argument here is that the US women are light years better than the US men (comparatively speaking) and their games are watched more in person and on TV in the USA than their Male counterparts. On the surface, they have a great point. However, although the US men are mediocre at best, they play the world's most popular sport whereas women's pro soccer on the global scale may not be on of the Top 25 most popular sports on the planet. What this means is that the US men, by default receive a lot of money from FIFA, CONCACAF, and other federations that the US women do not. Also, if the USMNT wants to field a competitive team, they have to pay their players at a competitive rate to what the big boys pay. The problem for the women is that their sport, although popular in the USA has almost no popularity globally so the majority of their money comes from domestic "sales" while the USMNT freeloaders, in a sense off of the massive global popularity of men's International soccer.

So, while I believe we still have a long way to go close the pay gap, in general, in this country, I dont think the USWNT should be paid anywhere close to the USMNT. It's pretty simple, really. How much does the USMNT bring in (including all FIFA and overseas TV deals) and how much does the USWNT bring in? They should be paid in proportion to what revenue is brought in.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

The knowledge that the men on that abortion of a team that is US men’s soccer, actually gets paid is sickening.

Equal pay is absurd, the women should be paid a lot more than the men.

 

[HopeandChangeforAntoons]

The University of Arizona women's softball team, has won 8 national titles under their current coach. Should those players be getting paid more than what Sean Miller pays his players, even though he's never made a Final 4?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

The University of Arizona women's softball team, has won 8 national titles under their current coach. Should those players be getting paid more than what Sean Miller pays his players, even though he's never made a Final 4?

Arizona players get, what $100K-200K so yea their softball coach should be paid more than that but she shouldn't get paid anywhere close to what their men's basketball or football coach gets paid. As a starting point, you have to look at the amount of revenue brought in.

Paying players based on their success sounds great in theory but the harsh reality is they dont generate near the amount of money as the men do because globally. Not many care about women's soccer or the USWNT. Should they be paid more? I guess so but not as much as the men.

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

Arizona players get, what $100K-200K so yea their softball coach should be paid more than that but she shouldn't get paid anywhere close to what their men's basketball or football coach gets paid. As a starting point, you have to look at the amount of revenue brought in.

Paying players based on their success sounds great in theory but the harsh reality is they dont generate near the amount of money as the men do because globally. Not many care about women's soccer or the USWNT. Should they be paid more? I guess so but not as much as the men.

No one on this planet and especially in this country care about the US men’s national team. Any thoughts of them bring nothing but embarrassment.

Many soccer fans in this country are proud of the USWNT. Lots Of fans too.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

No one on this planet and especially in this country care about the US men’s national team. Any thoughts of them bring nothing but embarrassment.

Many soccer fans in this country are proud of the USWNT. Lots Of fans too.

You dont get paid based on how proud people are of you. If you worked for some non-profit that helped homeless kids and were super great at it, we'd all be super proud of you, but you still wouldn't be making much money. In contrast, if you were some big-time stock broker who was a total douchebag, you'd be rich.

The amount of money your company generates is the basis that helps determine how much you get paid. While the USWNT is more popular than the USMNT in the US, they play a sport that most people in the world dont care about. They probably even bring in more money domestically than the men. But when you add in other types of revenue, the men just get way more. Its basic business principles. It would be great to pay the women more than the men. Those are some of the best female athletes in the world while the best American male athletes dont play pro soccer. But it's just business. The women dont generate enough revenue.

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

 

[pittdan77]

USA soccer is run a lot like the Pirates without the cash flow. If they spent any effort at all marketing the women's team and investing in the men's development program, everyone would be happier.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

USA soccer is run a lot like the Pirates without the cash flow. If they spent any effort at all marketing the women's team and investing in the men's development program, everyone would be happier.

Not sure I'd make that comparison. If you want to use the Pirates as a comparison to US Soccer, it would be like Penguins players complaining they dont make as much as the horrible Pirates players. The Pens win cups and have some of the best players on the planet while the Pirates are an embarrassment. The Pens are way more popular locally but the Pirates play a sport that is massively more popular nationally and thus, they generate more revenue so their players make more.

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

Just happened to come across this. I don’t follow soccer all that closely but knew there was an issue. I know there was a high profile player on some team who sat out. But I had no idea the gap was this wide.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

The University of Arizona women's softball team, has won 8 national titles under their current coach. Should those players be getting paid more than what Sean Miller pays his players, even though he's never made a Final 4?

Well, does the US men's national team outdraw the US Women's team? I know this, Arizona Women's softball doesn't.

I am all for equal pay when deserved. No one, not even families care about the WNBA, so obviously there is no comparison to their NBA counterparts. But I know just as many casual soccer fans (raising my hand) who watch the women's team as much, if not more, than the men's team. I know this, more people can name Ally Morgan and Megan Rapinoe than..............okay........Christian Pulisic (maybe)....so.....yeah there ya go.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Not sure I'd make that comparison. If you want to use the Pirates as a comparison to US Soccer, it would be like Penguins players complaining they dont make as much as the horrible Pirates players. The Pens win cups and have some of the best players on the planet while the Pirates are an embarrassment. The Pens are way more popular locally but the Pirates play a sport that is massively more popular nationally and thus, they generate more revenue so their players make more.

This is absolutely true and this is a great analogy. However, I contend that their isn't that much of difference in the interest between the Men's national team and Women's national team here in the US. At least not 6 times the interest. Maybe around the world, but not here in the USA.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

Well, does the US men's national team outdraw the US Women's team? I know this, Arizona Women's softball doesn't.

I am all for equal pay when deserved. No one, not even families care about the WNBA, so obviously there is no comparison to their NBA counterparts. But I know just as many casual soccer fans (raising my hand) who watch the women's team as much, if not more, than the men's team. I know this, more people can name Ally Morgan and Megan Rapinoe than..............okay........Christian Pulisic (maybe)....so.....yeah there ya go.

The men’s US team is 100 % irrelevant in this country and a punchline in others. The USWNT is a big draw here and feared outside of the country.

Facts are facts. Pay differential should be reversed.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

The men’s US team is 100 % irrelevant in this country and a punchline in others. The USWNT is a big draw here and feared outside of the country.

Facts are facts. Pay differential should be reversed.

At least equal in this respect. I know Men's soccer is the most important sport in the world, but here in the US, it just isn't, despite those on this board trying to convince us otherwise. And part of that is in most countries, they have 1 or maybe 2 sports that they are truly serious about, and in the US, there are 5-6 "pro" sports that have our interest and most we excel in aside from men's soccer. So.....to compare its popularity in Europe or South America or Africa with here, is not relevant. Here in the US, the women are at least equal to the men. Again, ask casual sports fans to name a US Men's soccer player, and then ask them to name a Women's soccer player.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

At least equal in this respect. I know Men's soccer is the most important sport in the world, but here in the US, it just isn't, despite those on this board trying to convince us otherwise. And part of that is in most countries, they have 1 or maybe 2 sports that they are truly serious about, and in the US, there are 5-6 "pro" sports that have our interest and most we excel in aside from men's soccer. So.....to compare its popularity in Europe or South America or Africa with here, is not relevant. Here in the US, the women are at least equal to the men. Again, ask casual sports fans to name a US Men's soccer player, and then ask them to name a Women's soccer player.

I don’t like soccer and I was excited for game today. People still talk about the chastain game against China. When, if ever, has a non soccer fan ever been excited for a US men’s soccer game?

Not in my lifetime.

 

[pittiswhereiamfrom2]

I think it’s awful that we continue to allow these women to play soccer. I think it was NBC News that did a story that shows female soccer players are more susceptible to CTE.

How can we allow something this dangerous to continue?

 

[Demolition Man]

Serious question for the soccer (Futbol) aficionados.........

What is the lowest men's level that would give this US women's team a good challenge?

A good MLS team
A good college Div 1 team
A good high school team
Blawnox Youth Soccer (just kidding on this one)

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Serious question for the soccer (Futbol) aficionados.........

What is the lowest men's level that would give this US women's team a good challenge?

A good MLS team
A good college Div 1 team
A good high school team
Blawnox Youth Soccer (just kidding on this one)

A really good boys HS team would beat the USWNT but it'd be close. I would say the Pitt men would beat them 5-0 or 6-0.

 

[USN_Panther]

Serious question for the soccer (Futbol) aficionados.........

What is the lowest men's level that would give this US women's team a good challenge?

A good MLS team
A good college Div 1 team
A good high school team
Blawnox Youth Soccer (just kidding on this one)

I thought of this angle too. If the USWNT is as good as or better than the men, why not enter them in the Men's World Cup? Then they get that level of money.

The money pool is the money pool. What are the US U16 U18 U20 players being paid? If the income is the same, then show them the money. If not, the team should become more appealing to sponsors . Most of what I hear about the team is whining, complaining and poor sportsmanship. Not drawing maximium sponsorship revenue with that as your team's public perception.

 

[thom67]

A good high school team would beat them or a under 16/17 elite club team. My son played against the national team when he was a freshman in college. He said their freshman destroyed the women. Mostly due to speed and strength.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

The men’s US team is 100 % irrelevant in this country and a punchline in others. The USWNT is a big draw here and feared outside of the country.

Facts are facts. Pay differential should be reversed.

I dont know what is so hard about this. I mean most of you have college degrees. The USWNT doesn't generate near the amount of revenue that the men due. It's amazing to me that some of you feel like this should be ignored. That's simply not how business works. And to be honest, I kinda doubt that the USWNT gets higher TV ratings and larger crowds here in the US than the men. That is the claim but even if its true, it would be very very close.....but revenue is GLOBAL, it's not just domestic.

Let's assume the USA is the #1 country in the world for women's soccer and the #50 country in the world for men's soccer. Well, having said that, 16 million people watched the USMNT's team on ESPN, their Round of 16 match vs Belgium in 2014. 3 million people watched the USWNT's Round of 16 win over Sweden. Now, yea, 25 million people watched the USWNT's win in the Final 4 years ago and probably more will watch this year. The women make it that far, the men dont but they have to make it that far for Average Joe Blow to care.

Bottom line is this. The men bring in far more revenue because they play the planet's most popular sport. The women dont bring in much revenue at all outside of the US.

Unfortunately, soccer is a business and pay is determined by revenue. I know this hard for people to wrap their head around.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

The knowledge that the men on that abortion of a team that is US men’s soccer, actually gets paid is sickening.

Equal pay is absurd, the women should be paid a lot more than the men.

True

Merit based salary

 

[Pitt3Putt]

Professional sports = pay salaries commensurate to the revenue brought in. It’s a business first and foremost.

National teams = pay everybody the same. They’re not for profit and a lack of money isn’t what is holding the US back.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

I dont know what is so hard about this. I mean most of you have college degrees. The USWNT doesn't generate near the amount of revenue that the men due. It's amazing to me that some of you feel like this should be ignored. That's simply not how business works. And to be honest, I kinda doubt that the USWNT gets higher TV ratings and larger crowds here in the US than the men. That is the claim but even if its true, it would be very very close.....but revenue is GLOBAL, it's not just domestic.

Let's assume the USA is the #1 country in the world for women's soccer and the #50 country in the world for men's soccer. Well, having said that, 16 million people watched the USMNT's team on ESPN, their Round of 16 match vs Belgium in 2014. 3 million people watched the USWNT's Round of 16 win over Sweden. Now, yea, 25 million people watched the USWNT's win in the Final 4 years ago and probably more will watch this year. The women make it that far, the men dont but they have to make it that far for Average Joe Blow to care.

Bottom line is this. The men bring in far more revenue because they play the planet's most popular sport. The women dont bring in much revenue at all outside of the US.

Unfortunately, soccer is a business and pay is determined by revenue. I know this hard for people to wrap their head around.

No one besides a few parents Could care less about the US men’s soccer team. It’s a joke internationally and domestically, LITERALLY no one cares. They suck in a sport that no American cares about.

It’s not rocket science. Americans don’t care about soccer and they hate losers. The US men’s national team is both. Women are dominant so we follow them every few years, men lose to countries that we never heard of, islands the size of the north hills. Hence, we don’t acknowledge them.

I don’t know what is so hard about this. You have a college degree, why can’t you understand this?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

No one besides a few parents Could care less about the US men’s soccer team. It’s a joke internationally and domestically, LITERALLY no one cares. They suck in a sport that no American cares about.

It’s not rocket science. Americans don’t care about soccer and they hate losers. The US men’s national team is both. Women are dominant so we follow them every few years, men lose to countries that we never heard of, islands the size of the north hills. Hence, we don’t acknowledge them.

I don’t know what is so hard about this. You have a college degree, why can’t you understand this?

So, in your mind, the revenue the men's team brings in should have no factor in how much the men make?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

National teams = pay everybody the same. They’re not for profit

What????

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

What????

It was a pretty simple concept

 

[Pitt3Putt]

No one besides a few parents Could care less about the US men’s soccer team. It’s a joke internationally and domestically, LITERALLY no one cares. They suck in a sport that no American cares about.

It’s not rocket science. Americans don’t care about soccer and they hate losers. The US men’s national team is both. Women are dominant so we follow them every few years, men lose to countries that we never heard of, islands the size of the north hills. Hence, we don’t acknowledge them.

I don’t know what is so hard about this. You have a college degree, why can’t you understand this?

So, in your mind, the revenue the men's team brings in should have no factor in how much the men make?

When the men are only bringing in revenue because they are men and American, yes, it doesn’t matter.

No TV deal or CONCACAF money pool is going to change based on whether the US has somebody like Christian Pulisic or not. On a micro level, the men’s team isn’t a value add in any way to the revenue generated by men’s soccer globally or regionally.

People with penises wear a US Men’s kit, and that’s more or less the extent of what they do to move the needle.

Or, put a different way, the Women’s team likely generates a disproportionately large percent of the total National Team soccer revenue when compared to how other Women’s teams do in other countries.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

If you want to understand the reason that the men get paid more than the women...

In 2014 Germany was paid $35 million for their men winning the World Cup. In 2015 the US was paid $2 million for their women winning the World Cup. Last year France was paid $38 million for winning the World Cup. This year's women's winner will be paid $4 million. Last year all teams at the men's World Cup were paid a total of $400 million. All the women's teams in this year's tournament will be paid a total of $30 million.

The US men get paid more money because men's soccer is worth multiples of what women's soccer is worth in the international market. They also get paid more on a per game basis because US Soccer pays a lot of money to keep the NWSL afloat, which they do not do for MLS.

Which doesn't mean that the women shouldn't get paid more. They probably should. But do you know why they get paid what they do for playing? Because they have a union, and that union negotiated them a contract. And they voted to ratify that contract. If they all think that the contract is unfair, then why on earth did they agree to it?

 

[Pitt3Putt]

National teams = pay everybody the same. They’re not for profit

What????

I mean obviously the lizard people ruling class secretly owns everything but as far as I know they aren’t pocketing excess cash by skimping on salary or trying to make the financials look good so they can attract a billionaire investor to sell to.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

No one besides a few parents Could care less about the US men’s soccer team. It’s a joke internationally and domestically, LITERALLY no one cares. They suck in a sport that no American cares about

2019 home attendance
Men
Panama 9040
Costa Rica 13,656
Ecuador 17,422
Chile 18,033
Jamaica 17,779
Venezuela 23,995
Guyana 19,418
Trinidad & Tobago 23,921
Panama 17,037

Women
Japan: 14,555
England 22,125
Brazil 14,009
Australia 17,264
Belgium 20,941
South Africa 22,788
New Zealand 35,761
Mexico 26,332

As you can see, there isn't much difference in attendance between the men and the women and this is also taking into account the women are in a World Cup year while the men started 2019 a little less than 4 years away from the Nov/Dec 2022 World Cup and interest in the USMNT was as low as it's been in a decade or so. I agree that there is great interest in the USWNT domestically but that's only relatively speaking. When you consider they are the best women's soccer team in the world and most of their games came against other top teams, it could even be seen as disappointing that they only draw about as much as the men do coming off a horrible World Cup miss. The men PROBABLY have a larger fanbase so you couldn't be more wrong when you say nobody cares about the USMNT.

 

[Demolition Man]

A really good boys HS team would beat the USWNT but it'd be close. I would say the Pitt men would beat them 5-0 or 6-0.

This is an interesting point. If the cash is there the women should get it. However, if the money is not currently there and they only perform at a high school level of proficiency compared to the other best available participants, how do you fairly determine the compensation?

Take emotions out of the equation. Imagine if someone wanted to be a surgeon, or an astronaut, or a cello player, but they could only perform at a common high school level. But others perform at a much higher level and the economic rules of supply and demand play out. It will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[pbrad]

Where does the money come from and who dishes it out? Who pays for travel?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Where does the money come from and who dishes it out? Who pays for travel?

Ticket sales
TV deals
Sponsorships

I would say the men, in general generate more money especially because the men will host friendlies with teams like Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Germany, etc. They do a couple of those games per year and draw NFL sized crowds. Now, you could say people are there to see their opponent but should the federation take that into account and pay the women more because the men's attendance is driven by opponents? They play a far more popular sport.

What puts the men's revenue way higher than the women is their revenue share from International events such as the World Cup and Gold Cup. And they made a killing off of that one-off Copa America played here. Again, they don't earn this money based on the quality of their team or the popularity of their team but they happen to play the world's most popular sport.

 

[McKee Place]

Perhaps the women's team is successful mainly because more of the other countries women's teams stink.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I dont know what is so hard about this. I mean most of you have college degrees. The USWNT doesn't generate near the amount of revenue that the men due. It's amazing to me that some of you feel like this should be ignored. That's simply not how business works. And to be honest, I kinda doubt that the USWNT gets higher TV ratings and larger crowds here in the US than the men. That is the claim but even if its true, it would be very very close.....but revenue is GLOBAL, it's not just domestic.

Let's assume the USA is the #1 country in the world for women's soccer and the #50 country in the world for men's soccer. Well, having said that, 16 million people watched the USMNT's team on ESPN, their Round of 16 match vs Belgium in 2014. 3 million people watched the USWNT's Round of 16 win over Sweden. Now, yea, 25 million people watched the USWNT's win in the Final 4 years ago and probably more will watch this year. The women make it that far, the men dont but they have to make it that far for Average Joe Blow to care.

Bottom line is this. The men bring in far more revenue because they play the planet's most popular sport. The women dont bring in much revenue at all outside of the US.

Unfortunately, soccer is a business and pay is determined by revenue. I know this hard for people to wrap their head around.

But you just kind of contradicted yourself. Of course there are two elements to this right? The global element, to which men's soccer DWARFS women's soccer in popularity. But then there is the national level, where this is NOT TRUE, simply based on the success of both programs. 25 million watched the women's team, 16 million watched the men's team in both teams last foray into the knock off rounds of their respective tournaments. To me, that sounds like the women definitely have a case.

And again, I can play man in the street and ask casual sports fans to name me a men's national team member and a women's national team member and I am guessing the latter would have more responses. What I am getting at, what drives much if not most of sports revenues is advertising. And the USWNT has a better "Q Rating" than the USMNT, which should be reflected in their compensation.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

But you just kind of contradicted yourself. Of course there are two elements to this right? The global element, to which men's soccer DWARFS women's soccer in popularity. But then there is the national level, where this is NOT TRUE, simply based on the success of both programs. 25 million watched the women's team, 16 million watched the men's team in both teams last foray into the knock off rounds of their respective tournaments. To me, that sounds like the women definitely have a case.

And again, I can play man in the street and ask casual sports fans to name me a men's national team member and a women's national team member and I am guessing the latter would have more responses. What I am getting at, what drives much if not most of sports revenues is advertising. And the USWNT has a better "Q Rating" than the USMNT, which should be reflected in their compensation.

Revenue is global though. By and large, the men make more because they play the world's most popular sport. It's great how popular the USWNT are here but no one anywhere else in the world watches them whereas hundreds of millions of people outside of the US will watch the USMNT. Again, that's just a factor of them just happening to play the world's most popular sport but that still matters. Not sure why people don't understand that players cannot be paid simply off of how popular they are domestically.

 

[jrfrph]

Revenue is global though. By and large, the men make more because they play the world's most popular sport. It's great how popular the USWNT are here but no one anywhere else in the world watches them whereas hundreds of millions of people outside of the US will watch the USMNT. Again, that's just a factor of them just happening to play the world's most popular sport but that still matters. Not sure why people don't understand that players cannot be paid simply off of how popular they are domestically.

U.S. women’s soccer games have generated more revenue than U.S. men’s games over the past three years.

That’s according to audited financial statements from the U.S. Soccer Federation (USSF) obtained by The Wall Street Journal. In 2016, women’s games generated $1.9 million more in revenue than men’s games. From 2016 to 2018, women’s games generated approximately $50.8 million in revenue, compared with $49.9 million for men’s games

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

U.S. women’s soccer games have generated more revenue than U.S. men’s games over the past three years.

That’s according to audited financial statements from the U.S. Soccer Federation (USSF) obtained by The Wall Street Journal. In 2016, women’s games generated $1.9 million more in revenue than men’s games. From 2016 to 2018, women’s games generated approximately $50.8 million in revenue, compared with $49.9 million for men’s games

Yes, but in Albania they aren't as popular so in SMF's mind, that is justification for the men being paid more.