agree 100%. And it seems to run more to the basketball side--there is a sizeable cabal of usual suspect hoops posters who never post on the football board.
Pat Forde weighs in on the Stallings hire, and it's not good
- Thread starter Fredact
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I don't think the hoops posters go over to the football board and talk smack on the football team and coach after every loss, no matter how good the team has been, though. There are a ton of the guys from the football board that did so when Dixon was the coach, and there was resentment that Pitt had been referred to as a hoops school nationally for a long period of time. These guys took it out on Dixon, and you can still see it today when the guys with 'TD' in their moniker come over to celebrate the best coach in school history being gone.
Only small minded people do that.
Like everyone in the sport--coaches, players, ADs, media. All those small-minded simpletons that make their livings in college basketball.
Guess what--a coach's "overall body of work" is weighed heavily by what he does in March, in competitive tournament play. I know this is a difficult concept for some but postseason wins are actually a lot more meaningful than rolling a succession of JV teams out of your gym in November and December.
You do know that Dixon had the best winning percentage in the history of the Big East, right? All of those JV teams in that league like Syracuse, UConn, Louisville, Georgetown, Notre Dame... Never had any good coaches in that league either.
I can recall a couple of numskulls who used to be prolific football-side posters who did that sort of thing, but they are long gone.
Regardless, no question it's pathetic for any Pitt fan to wish ill on either of the major revenue programs, or any other Pitt athletic program.
i agree with your conclusions. However, I get a little annoyed with the conclusion of many that we have had a bad "5 years." I don't really see it as a 5-year thing. I see two of those years (Adams year and Zanna RS SR year) as years with overall results comparable to the prior 8 Dixon years. I say this since Pitt had final Sagarin ratings those two years of #13 and #20, respectively--nothing wrong with that although many of our fans wanted better NCAA tourney results. Then, i chalk that other earlier bad year (Gibbs SR year) to mostly bad luck due to the Woodall injury and Gibbs playing hurt and out of position all season--although I would concede the Dante Taylor at the 5 as a recruiting problem--but likely without the backcourt injuries it would not have been as bad. The last two years of the five, however, fully support your conclusions. The lack of an adequate 5 produced the NIT year and last year's struggle at the 5 with the grad transfers were only a small improvement at the 5 (mainly in the OOC where Maia & Co weren't overmatched except vs Purdue). There was no adequate 5 on the horizon if Dixon stayed and I think he believed that himself and partly motivated his departure. It remains to be seen if Stallings can fix that most glaring of our problems.
I'm well aware of that, he had an excellent run, the one that created the expectations that he has failed to live up to for the past several years. Most alarmingly for the past several years, for whatever reason, Dixon has been unable to get players to come to Pitt. The teams we have been fielding for the past few years have lacked any discernible identity and had virtually no resemblance to the better Howland-DIxon teams. The program really slipped. Something had to give.
Dixon was a blip on the ACC radar screen, he didn't leave a mark, and after a few years at TCU, outside of the Pitt fan circle, it will be as though those glory years in the BE never happened.
Nonetheless, only the weakest form of excuse makers and apologists would discount the importance of postseason basketball on a coach's resume. Like it or not, that's what it's all about. That's what they play for.
Yep. Also know that we have won 1 meaningful NCAA tourney game in 5 years, and looked bad, really bad in each of our 3 losses. That we have been essentially a .500 conference team over the past 5 years.
You can't rest on past laurels forever. You are better off looking at the most recent performance to measure and predict future performance. Pedro Alvarez hit 36 HR's and drove over 100 RBI's a few years back. He hasn't come close to that since. So....do you hang onto that season forever to judge a guy?
I know Alvarez wasn't your main point, but if he had the same amount of plate appearances last year as he did in 2013, he'd be on pace for 34 HR & 96 RBI, plus 12 more walks and 23 less strikeouts.
At any rate, the previous coach made the NCAA tournament in 3 of the past 4 years, and had a team that he typically did well with coming back - a lot of upperclassmen and a 3 who can handle, pass, and shoot. I think it's far from a certainty that he was never going to get back to top of the conference.
At any rate, let's hope the current coach can get the program back there.
At any rate, the previous coach made the NCAA tournament in 3 of the past 4 years, and had a team that he typically did well with coming back - a lot of upperclassmen and a 3 who can handle, pass, and shoot. I think it's far from a certainty that he was never going to get back to top of the conference.
At any rate, let's hope the current coach can get the program back there.
Integrity. I don't think any school involved in big time college has integrity. College athletics and integrity just don't mix.
Then they're dead to me. But I doubt your assumption is true. I can say this. If it ever was revealed that Pitt acted with little or no integrity in athletics in any way, I would cease being a Pitt sports fan until they changed administrations and coaches and cleaned up their act. I just don't think the "rewards" of cheating are ever worth it. Ever.
But I'm probably a dying breed. If you can't do it right, don't do it.
So you're saying that the nitters do everything with integrity? You're delusional. Either that or you're a nitter. Or both. Yep, I do believe you're both.
I won't apologize for wanting to do things the right way. I've always been like that. If you don't like it, take a hike. Your thoughts on this subject won't change reality.
I'm not talking about cheating, breaking NCAA rules, or covering up crime. I'm talking about the system itself. It's a big time business driven by money hiding behind the guise of higher education. College athletics are a total sham. No school that participates in college athletics at a P5 level operates with an ounce of integrity. I'm not criticizing. College athletics are like that because of people like me.
At least you admit you're the source of the problem that is college athletics. I agree....college athletics is a cesspool and a sham. It's one of the reasons that I find myself being more and more disinterested in it with every passing year. The problem is that when 90% or more of these kids have graduated or worse, not graduated, most will need to find a real way to make a living besides sports. For the few that actually do take their education seriously and graduate and get jobs, I commend them. But they're few and far between. Most will never play a minute in professional sports. And the ones that do, will do it for such a short time, it won't be meaningful.
If I wanted that, I would just watch pro sports. And I hate pro sports.
Wow. A bit harsh. But also closer to the truth than even the most Pollyanna of college fans will care to admit. The one thing that makes me want to slap people is when they "hate" pro sports because "it is about the money" yet blindly follow college football and basketball because it is played for the love of the game. WHAT? WHAT THE HELL? That is complete naiveté.
Why? Honestly why? Why do you care what people get paid to play the game? Why does this take enjoyment out of the game for you? So you would rather watch 12 year olds play a sport because it is more "pure"? What if one of those kids are getting free shoes?
I read PSU's book by their Sports Historian. College Football Players have been paid and compensated differently than the general student since 1900!!!! It has always been this way. Just now, the money is exponentially different. I can't see how fans get their panties bunched up over a kid getting a car or a nice apartment, etc...but sees no issue that the coaches are millionaires several times over. And the College Presidents aren't.
I have a big time problem when a coach is paid millions while a Chancellor or a heart surgeon can't approach that income level. But it's what the market bears. It's screwed up. I actually agree with you on that point.
As for watching 12 year olds play a sport? Honestly, I enjoy watching Little League baseball or Pony League baseball, because most of those kids are doing their best and want to be better and are genuine about it. Not all, but most. Some are the pampered, entitled group and those kids need to change their attitudes about sports. But in many ways, it's a microcosm of college sports. It's bad there too, and getting worse. It really does make me wonder what sports will look like in 10, 20 or 50 years. I'm sure it won't resemble what we have now.
HailtoPitt1985 is correct on this. Your position is wrong. Pros don't hide what they are.
Colleges and unversities present intercollegiate athletics in a completely hypocritical manner. They lie with a straight face and wrap everythjng in a cloak of love of alma mater , education, student athletes, graduation rates, etc.
It is a business. But the schools try to market it as an inherent part of the college experience. Fans buy into this. Arguments about loyalty to our school rage all the time on here. We get calls from swimmers and divers or track students asking us to donate to support dear old Pitt. They ask donations to build and upgrade facilities. They take money from the General Fund, from students with no interest in sports to support sports.
That is BS.
Colleges have NO place in big time sports. The money is too big and it corrupts. If football or basketball players are being compensated, they're proessionals-whether it happened in the 1910's or last week.
If the quality of play is too low to attract enough paying customers, well, it IS a business. Cut wages and compete at a lower level or raise wages and make the product attractive enough to make a profit. Quit appealing to "love from son and daughter" for more donations. Quit pretending to have a higher moral standing when in fact, the program is scrambling in the dirt like any other business.
I'm tired of the BS.
Harve, this is why I have a very hard time believing anything that comes out of the mouths of our coaches, the AD or the Chancellor. We hear all of this hype that is, in reality, deceit. I'm sorry if I prefer honesty and integrity to some crap that is veiled with love of alma mater and rah rah. Call college sports what it is....semi-professional sports played by professionals who are pretending to get a free education while just playing a game. "Student-athlete" is total BS. Few are real students, taking a full curriculum without the daily aid of personal tutors and a bunch of liberty with grades and course load.
Anybody that says they will cease to watch Pitt because they might get into the slime of college athletics is lying to themselves....PERIOD
Wow. Not sure what you are getting at. I can solve this money grab. TAX! These Universities hide behind their educational status and these programs are ginormous revenue producer/consumers, but don't get taxed like normal businesses. Tax them. Treat them like the business they are.
I am not disagreeing with you or anyone else. I just have no illusions that it isn't bobby sox, letter sweaters and milkshakes on the collegiate level. If you do, then you are naïve. Of course, you have a choice. Don't go. Don't watch. Don't donate.
The problem has really become what I call a "blue state/red state" issue. And what I mean from this, college sports has limited appeal or that appeal has a limit in "blue" areas, meaning urban areas that they share with pro teams. The general public, for instance in Pittsburgh, or Butler, or New Ken or Mt. Lebanon, does not need Pitt football or BB as its anointed flagbearer for local pride? But Alabama has no pro teams. Alabama football on a Saturday puts itself on a national level that the Steelers do for Pittsburgh on a Sunday. So....in a the roundabout manner I am saying this, they have become the "defacto" pro teams. What sucks, you, me, anyone on this board cannot get out our checkbook and "donate" or "influence" the Steelers to sign say Von Miller or Richard Sherman, because there are drafts, caps, and the salaries are open. In colleges, well there are no salaries, there are no drafts, so hey, no real constraints except some BS rules.
On that note, you are again not even living in the past because these "kids" have always or have always been paid to some extent outside of a "scholarship". And if you are against any perqs for these athletes or salaries, then you are OK with slavery or at least indentured servitude. These kids probably spend 40-50 hours a week on their sport, so you expect them to also carry and compete the same course load as a normal student? Plus, they aren't allowed to have University provided jobs. I don't know about you, but I am guessing some of these kids don't have parents who can just loan or buy their kids a car to get home occasionally, or buy the latest clothes, or you know, a pizza.
I say, take away the hypocrisy. Create a Football and Basketball business unit. The players are employees of the University, so they can be paid because they are bringing in revenue. Create some "Life Sciences" majors, to give them basic life skills that probably they never got in High School or at home, or kids can choose real majors like now, god bless them. But let's remove the hypocrisy.
One other thing on "cheating", in Starkville, MS, there is less of a chance of the local sports writers or talk show hosts wanting to dig dirt on Mississippi State than say in Pittsburgh. In Pittsburgh, where you have PSU alums, or Mich State alums or Syracuse alums, Northwestern, tOSU, etc...in the local sports media.
You ever wonder why some of the biggest scandals involving "cheating" have been at SMU (Dallas), USC (LA), Miami, etc.... In the city....(cue Eagles song)......the local college athletic program doesn't run the town.
So as far as Pitt "not playing the game" as well, perhaps it is also because it is harder for them to do it and get away with it.
You ever wonder why some of the biggest scandals involving "cheating" have been at SMU (Dallas), USC (LA), Miami, etc.... In the city....(cue Eagles song)......the local college athletic program doesn't run the town.
So as far as Pitt "not playing the game" as well, perhaps it is also because it is harder for them to do it and get away with it.
It's really pretty simple. If you have to cheat to win, it better be for something worthwhile. You're not just cheating your opponent. You're cheating yourself.
Winning a game is NOT worth lying to myself and betraying my integrity.
If that is all YOUR integrity is worth to you, I feel sorry for you.
Winning a game is NOT worth lying to myself and betraying my integrity.
If that is all YOUR integrity is worth to you, I feel sorry for you.
I try and look at how I would feel if I won something in my world or accomplished something significant, but in accomplishing it, I cheated to get it. I would feel like I cheated myself and I cheated my fellow competitors. What I won, if anything, would be worthless. Even if you don't care about your competitors, you'd have a least a dose of self-pride and have some self-worth to the point that you'd want to win with integrity and know that what you accomplished was done honestly and without cutting corners or doing something wrong. If you have no qualms about cheating as long as you win, then you obviously have little to no self-worth.
But that's just how I feel about it. Obviously in college sports, cheaters are everywhere. Boeheim cheated. Calipari cheated. What they accomplished when they cheated is worthless, in my view. And don't tell me there are degrees of cheating. If you cheated, you cheated.
But that's just how I feel about it. Obviously in college sports, cheaters are everywhere. Boeheim cheated. Calipari cheated. What they accomplished when they cheated is worthless, in my view. And don't tell me there are degrees of cheating. If you cheated, you cheated.
So, you are playing a basketball game, and the ball goes off of you, but the ref calls it off your opponent and awards possession to your team? Do you correct the ref? Isn't that cheating? Isn't that "betraying your integrity"? You are a coach, the opposition shoots a layup, your 6'10" stud C comes in a blocks the shot, even though it is clearly on the way down. The refs allow the block. Do you stop the game and correct the refs to award the other team 2 points for a made FG? You are on the mound, you throw a pitch obviously low and outside, the ump calls a strike. Do you say "whoa.....that was clearly a ball"?
That highway sign say Speed Limit 55 MPH. There are no cops around. It is sunny and dry. You are running behind. You don't go 65MPH? Never?
Sorry....I think you have this weird holdup with college sports on ethics that doesn't always play in real life. But college sports and how they acquire players is the most single important part of society beholden to pristine and exclusive ethics. Here's another thing, how many athletes would actually get into the school on strictly academics, ie the rest of the students? So taking say some superstar 1-2 years to the NBA who likely would only go to Community college if it was just based on academics is lacking in integrity, because you subordinated your academics to athletics.
And I can tell you this, even Stanford and Notre Dame violate this rule, the only schools that wouldn't would be Navy, Army and the Air Force. And even then not so sure as it takes a congressional appointment. So.....don't watch college sports. Your exquisite integrity is too high.
Again, and this includes St, Jamie Dixon, I have never, ever seen a coach when a call goes their way, even though it was obvious it should have gone the other way, go to a ref and say "hey, you missed that call, it should be their ball not ours. We touched it last." NEVER. EVER. "Degrees of cheating".
Spare me the holier than thou crap. There are "degrees of cheating" whether you like it or not.
That is one of the worst analogies I have ever seen.
Sorry to further delusion you--but you do know that the military academies do send athletes (and some others who need to boost some academic weaknesses) to prep school for a year before they go to the academies. Here is a NY Times article on it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/09/opinion/nocera-the-military-prep-school-scam.html?_r=0
Like "degrees of being pregnant"? You either cheat or you don't cheat.
And I have seen players ask an official to reverse a call, even if it didn't benefit them. It doesn't happen often, that's for sure. But I can say I've never seen a coach do it.
If it is that egregious a bad call the coach of the adversely effected team will complain probably faster than the favorably effected team can in most cases. Also, I don't think the coaches are always in a position visually to be sure one way or another on most calls vs the view one of the officials has of the play. I also wouldn't be surprised that an official might not do anything about changing a call even if the favorably effected coach pointed out he thought the call was wrong. This is a tempest in a tea pot!
Don't watch college sports is the most accurate line.
The problem with the discussion is that the NCAA all but sanctions it.
Outside of Pitt games....and the Georgia Tech Orange Bowl.....I think I've watched no more than fifty minutes of colleges sports over the past two years.
The problem with the discussion is that the NCAA all but sanctions it.
Outside of Pitt games....and the Georgia Tech Orange Bowl.....I think I've watched no more than fifty minutes of colleges sports over the past two years.
I really have no interest in other college sports, other than Pitt. I did watch this year's NC game between UNC and 'Nova, but mainly because I had something riding on it....a basketball poll. Outside of Pitt football, I watch virtually zero college football. I don't like the sport. College hoops I may watch for a few minutes when it's a game Pitt is not in, but it will only be for a little while. I have enjoyed college basketball more than any other sport, but lately I'm not sure why.
Pro sports? Never watch it, except to go to a few Pirates' games during the year with friends and family. And then, we'll use one of the boxes at our disposal and watch the game intermittently. PNC Park is a beautiful venue and that's what I enjoy.
Pro sports? Never watch it, except to go to a few Pirates' games during the year with friends and family. And then, we'll use one of the boxes at our disposal and watch the game intermittently. PNC Park is a beautiful venue and that's what I enjoy.
