Pennsylvania Football talent
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I am from No.Va. but I have several friends born in Allegheny County PA and I tell them don't be ashamed to have been born and raised in Appalachia.... in fact you should claim it -- in some places it is a "designated category" and can be used to your advantage in seeking assistance for loans, school admissions etc....
The concept of Appalachia, as defined by the government, is completely different than what any sociologist would consider Appalachia to be. You're kind of confusing the conversation.
You're lumping all of WV in the same bucket, and in my experience, that's not accurate.
From Clarksburg north, along I-79, is nothing like southern WV. You can add Wheeling and points north, and the eastern panhandle to that list.
The line of distinction is basically, from Parkersburg to Clarksburg.
Culturally, the perception of Appalachia is that of southern Appalachia. Pittsburgh is not a part of that. Geographically, of course Pittsburgh is in Appalachia, as is most of Pennsylvania outside of the areas near Philly, and near Erie, but northern Appalachia (most of Pennsylvania, southeastern Ohio, western Maryland, the southern stretch of western NY, and the northern third of WV) really doesn't have an identity. People are loathe to embrace the term Appalachian, because of the negative image of the southern regions. This is why people argue so much about what region Pittsburgh belongs to. Midwestern? Not really. Yeah, we share some things with Cleveland, but to me, Indy is quintessentially Midwestern, and I can't think of a city within 500 miles of us that is more unlike Pittsburgh than Indy. The idea of Pittsburgh, and Iowa being in the same region is even crazier, let alone the Plains States that are frequently considered to be part of the Midwest. Great Lakes? Flat, not a rowhouse to be found, wooden houses spaced far apart. Nah! East Coast? Too far inland. Maybe "interior east" is a good definition.
The 2020 class reflects Rivals ratings of 52 4* players in Florida, 39 4* players in Texas vs 1 4* player in Pa. I got to believe that most of the top 10 kids in the state got to be 4* kids. Pa is definitely way down this year, but I believe there is a recruiting bias going where the money is also. With all that talent how could the Texas and Florida teams be so far down currently if the recruiting rankings were totally accurate? This isn't a 1 year trend.
Statistics on Diagnosed Concussions (NFL - IQVIA):
(Preseason and regular-season practices plus games)
2012 - 265
2013 - 244
2014 - 212
2015 - 279
2016 - 250
2017 - 291
I'm not sure that the numbers mean since they're not compared to anything except other years.
I would guess if you go back to 2000 the numbers are lower even though the game of football was just as dangerous, no rules to protect the head area, and the equipment wasn't as good as today.
It's the thing today to focus on concussions!
Going forward even with improved equipment, changed rules that protect the head area, concussion numbers will go up simply because it's a hot menu item these days even for announcers.
I would bet in every football game I watch the announcers say "he probably has a concussion" and the cameras pan to the concussion protocol area like it's now part of the game, and the announcers make their pronouncements? Lot's of grey when trying to figure out if a player has a concussion so most will take the safe route and report the incident as a concussion;
Since there’s no simple test for diagnosing a concussion, the process takes several steps:
- Interview to document the extent of any retrograde amnesia (loss of memory of the events immediately before the injury), loss of consciousness, or post-traumatic amnesia (loss of memory of events after the injury). Post-traumatic amnesia is the best indicator of a patient’s prognosis after a concussion, so this step is extremely important.
- Determination of the range and severity of post-concussion symptoms on the field. There are several standardized scales, the most common of which is the SCAT-2 (Sideline Concussion Assessment Tool). This scale inquires about symptoms, attention, and memory; asks about recent events in the game; and checks balance and coordination. (Download the SCAT-2.)
- Examination for any neurologic signs or symptoms: Tests of strength, sensation, reflexes, coordination, cranial nerve functions, mental status, and other neurologic functions to determine any serious injury to the brain.
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Just relaying actual accurate statistics from the NFL not some random report saying .5 of every thousand football player gets a concussion. In fact if you Consider the size of the NFL and how many people play multiple years, and if I had time I would do that, I think you would see most likely close to 30% if not higher of every player in the NFL has had a concussion at one point in their life
The numbers I gave are from completeconcussions.com and it is not random but a study of rates between HS sports (hence why boxing is not included since there are no/few HS boxing teams). The way it is rated is how many concussions per 1,000 Athletic Exposures, meaning for a combination of 1,000 games and practices how many concussions are there?
That makes more sense to gauge the dangers to participants in HS than using NFL Numbers. The NFL is a different animal than HS obviously as most of the participants are genetic freaks who play more games in a season, at a faster pace then you will see in a HS game.
I said it before and I will say it again, there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of former HS and college football players living normal productive lives. If parents are scared of letting their kids play HS football because of CTE based off the Mike Webster and Junior Seau's of the world then they lost proper prospective. They are looking at the outlier and thinking it is the norm because of the attention it gets.
Jim McElwain, Kevin Sumlin, Al Golden, past his prime Mark Richt, Will Muschamp, past his prime Mack Brown, and Charlie Strong will tend do that.
It almost speaks volumes about the talent in those states that the schools managed to have the records that they did under these guys.
If you played football concussions are something that happens once in a while.
Most players will tell you that.
Lots of players in other sports have similar issues but football seems to be a focal point.
It's simply an occupational hazard.
The way to not get a concussion playing football is to not play football.
Lots of people make that choice and others don't.
There's risk in almost everything people do.
Some risks are greater than others.
People make lots of money playing football and most people end up just fine!
Kids all want the same thing. Sure, some like one style of campus or system but let’s stay out of the weeds.
Everyone wants to play for a team that can compete at the highest level, has production on both sides of the ball and provides a great opportunity for exposure. Style of play has to be right and consistent FIRST (see Dino Babers, Art Briles, etc). Show the product then upgrade it with higher levels of talent.
HCPN’s merry go round at OC has been a detrimental factor. Hopefully we have enough in place w/ Whip, Beatty, Powell and Salem to get momentum quickly with an enticing and entertaining product. We all buy with our eyes, kids are no different. It doesn’t matter what state has the talent, if we build it, they will come.
Everyone wants to play for a team that can compete at the highest level, has production on both sides of the ball and provides a great opportunity for exposure. Style of play has to be right and consistent FIRST (see Dino Babers, Art Briles, etc). Show the product then upgrade it with higher levels of talent.
HCPN’s merry go round at OC has been a detrimental factor. Hopefully we have enough in place w/ Whip, Beatty, Powell and Salem to get momentum quickly with an enticing and entertaining product. We all buy with our eyes, kids are no different. It doesn’t matter what state has the talent, if we build it, they will come.
Good post Buffett.
The SCAT is now up to version SCAT5. My involvement with youth ice hockey has had me use this assessment a number of times. There are phone apps for coaches and for medical personnel on site to guide next steps in assessment, treatment and timing for assessment for return to play. All sports clubs should have concussion protocols in place. In New Zealand the rugby union has led this initiative effectively.
One thing we discovered is that the baseline testing tools that are designed for adults do not work for teenagers. Most of the teens fail the baseline test because as we all know the teenaged brain doesn't work the same as an adult brain.
I guess I'd agree if we had a metric for "normal productive lives". I'm kidding. But you can make the same argument about guys that broke a bone or tore something. They're normal and productive but quickly cite that old injury when they can't do something. Imagine if people had the same awareness of brain injuries?
The attention to head injuries was long overdue. I think assuming that every parent that hold their kids out of football because they're scared of CTE is an overly dramatic representation because most people still don't understand head injuries or have any clue about the urgency of treating one. You also have a sudden influx of "medical specialists" that sat in on a seminar somewhere and are suddenly going to capitalize on being the local guy who gets all of the referrals. It's scary that people are taking medical advice from a clown that knows next to nothing, telling a parent all the wrong things to do. So you end up with a lot of confusion, misinformation, and, of course, a lot of guys who are just terrified about the demise of football, spouting trash from the cheap seats. I don't understand the latter because football makes too much money to suddenly be deemed "too dangerous".
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anon_vmuicqnzlyp3u
Guest
I think a lot of the CTE concussions have underlying issues. A majority of those, especially the NFL, that have concussion and later "CTE" also were involved in PED. Not saying that it's the main cause but that angle also needs to be addressed and looked at as well.
Not just PED but I just saw a study that described how physicians need more patient info prior to suffering head injury.
If you have psychiatric problems prior to head injuries, your outcome probably will be different if you don't.
Noone knows if anyone has CTE until they're dead and examined.
To date there's not alot of evidence of C T E.
What do you suggest cancel all football?
They've changed rules to the point where its not really football anymore, the equipment is the best, so what's next?
Not play?
You never played the game!
That's obvious!
I played an maybe had one concussion, we had two kids who played LB in the largest conference in Eastern PA, both started three years, both were all conference players and had no concussions.
I coached youth football for ten years and can't remember many concussions and we were required to have certified medical staff at every game. They handled the injuries not the coaches.
It's big payola to be on the concussion list today!
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I am one of those who has a knee issue due to football/wrestling/judo, and while it brings discomfort (especially during rain/big temp swings) I can still live a normal life with it. Hell I am even thinking about getting back into jiu jitsu now that I lost 40 pounds (Knees feel a lot better without carrying around that weight, but I still need to lose another 30 to get to HS weight which I expect will make my knees feel even better).
Not that this is scientific or anything more than an antidote, but I have 3 aunts who never played any sport who had knee replacements/hip replacements while in their 60's. In fact when you go to those orthopedic offices/rehabilitation centers, you see more older people 60 years old and over both male and female, then you do see younger (40-55 year olds) former athletes. So from my perspective, it does not seem like football/sports are the only reason people have issues. It also does not seem like former athletes require attention prematurely than non athletes either. Living life is a hazard itself. You can't live in a bubble, people need to experience life some. I know when I meet God I am going to hand him a well used body and thank him for the gift. I see no need to hand him a pristine unused body.
Do I agree that attention needs payed to head injuries of course I do. But I also think the media blown it out of proportion like they do with every topic they touch.
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I think the difficult part is everyone associates CTE injuries with big, light them up hits, and subsequent concussions.
I would think the continuous, long term ramifications of daily practice and games of linemen, starting with young children, the unavoidable head trauma, even if it is "light", but it is repetitive would be everybit as damaging as the head to head "JACK THEM UP" highlight hits.
This.....I don't know how you can legislate and control with rules.
I would think the continuous, long term ramifications of daily practice and games of linemen, starting with young children, the unavoidable head trauma, even if it is "light", but it is repetitive would be everybit as damaging as the head to head "JACK THEM UP" highlight hits.
This.....I don't know how you can legislate and control with rules.
The only way to legislate and control the situation is to:
+add rules to youth football which make football safer
+develop safer equipment
Both of these activities are ongoing.
I not convinced the rest of your post is medical fact.
If what you say is medical fact than the only answer is to cancel all football. since you can't avoid repetitive contact with the head and play football at the same time.
I avoid the panicky use of trauma since certain trigger words make things worse.
People forget how how safe equipment is these days. All new football helmets are certified to meet the performance standard set by the National Operating Committee for Sports Equipment (NOCSAE) when they leave the factory.
Those helmets which meet the NOCSAE standard must bear the seal, "Meets NOCSAE standards" and the logo for that type of helmet. The seal and logo are permanently branded or stamped on the outside rear portion of the helmet.
The NOCSAE standard requiring inspections of football helmets and shoulder pads every two years, however, has been adopted by every state association playing under National Federation of State High School Associations (NFHS) and NCAA rules.
Our local program has all youth football helmets inspected every year.
Football helmets and other equipment are replaced if necessay and all helmuts are replaced with new state of the art helmets on a regular schedule.
I say good luck to the Soccer Kids who are heading balls as a daily practice drill, head balls alot in games, not to mention head to head contact in soccer practice and games.
The soccer kids don't have helmets.
It's difficult to protect everyone from everything but there's alot of people trying!
Fyi- a couple down the street from us both played soccer a Duke.
At a party the question of football for kids came up which swerved into soccer.
She played soccer from 6 through college and beyond in some soccer federation. She told us the dirty little secret that no one talks about much is head contact in soccer especially soccer played at a high level.
She termed the contact as significant from a combination of heading balls in practice, heading high velocity balls (alot) in games, contact with the ground and other players. One thing she did say was go head a high velocity soccer ball and see how you feel after the impact.
Just football comes up?
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Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit and their surrounding areas aka The Rust Belt should be considered their own region. Pittsburgh has more in common with those cities than they do Philly and Baltimore and Detroit & Cleveland have more in common with Pittsburgh and Buffalo than places like Indianapolis, Chicago and the Twin Cities.
I played football for Gateway High School.
Of course I don’t condone cancelling football, I’m on a football forum. I just don’t condone misleading statistics that don’t show a true picture.
I do condone taking the MONEY paid out on lawsuits to go to research in helmet and pad technology (and not just because I’m a materials engineer for helmet technologies), because the true way to solve problems is through root cause analysis and mitigation. It’s a violent sport so either stop playing, change the rules drastically... oooor the best option is to create protection that can take the massive head accelerations and disperse that trauma into the protective systems instead of into skulls.
Great solution!
That's exactly what I posted in another thread.
Meaningful statistics matter!
Make it a safer game for all!
Rules that make sense and high tech helmet and other solutions!
I like what you said, but lets add proper technique too. How many times do we see headhunters looking for the splash hit, instead of wrapping up and making a proper tackle? In actual game situations a proper form tackle is not realistic, but you can get closer to it than what is seen today. Too many guys work on getting bigger, faster, stronger instead of working on the craft in my opinion.
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anon_vmuicqnzlyp3u
Guest
This is pretty spot on but the problem I see are these guys today are too busy trying to make that big hit by leaving their feet constantly. NEVER in my life was I taught to leave my feet for a tackle. One way to curb it is institute "leave your feet to projectile" immediate ejection. No review just an ejection. Watch how fast leaving your feet stops
Absolutely.
However, that is certainly a major difference in football the past 10 years since these concussion debates started. No question there are far more rules and penalties for these hits. I think if more targeting ejections are called, it would curtail bad hits even more. I still think alot of players and/or coaches secretly love it if your team needs a spark and you slobberknocker an opponent into a concussion. They will gladly take the 15 yard penalty and the momentum. If these guys get thrown out of the game (much like hockey did with the goons), then I think youll see much less guys doing it. Also, the offense needs to be called when players put their helmet down to ram through an opponent.
Correct. And @steelcurtain55. is correct that psychiatric issues are prevalent in FB players. This is where CTE research is difficult. These things show up often enough that they can't be entirely dismissed as contributing factors so they get called out a lot as evidence that there isn't any proof. Mike Webster is a perfect example of a guy with a host of issues and had CTE. If you dismiss his brain damage because of substance abuse, you can do the same with a guy has an arthritic condition that's leftover from football who also abused drugs or alcohol. But it's not true.
It's still really early with all of the research. Big tobacco used to say cancer was just a sensational ploy, too.
I don't think they'll ever make equipment that can keep a brain from decelerating against the skull. We also know that the best equipment in the world doesn't really work well for grade school kids, ether.
Football only gets safer once everyone accepts that there are limits to what a brain can endure and limits to how safe the equipment can make the game. Moreover, this "manly" complaining about penalties and media attention to the issue is just petty and stupid. Reasonable human beings can sort through this stuff.
I wish i could agree with this but I can't. A) There is too much misinformation out there on both sides of any issue there is to talk about . B) IMO people become more UNreasonable every year. Look at this very board as an example. (BTW I am not claiming I am above this either)
A couple of helmet technologies have sparked my interest.
Vicis helmets
and
There is a sticker manufacture that has shown to reduce concussions. A league in Canada has been using them with good results. The stickers help deflect the twisting effect from side blows. I wish I could remember the name.
The Guardian technology has not proven to work.
Vicis helmets
and
There is a sticker manufacture that has shown to reduce concussions. A league in Canada has been using them with good results. The stickers help deflect the twisting effect from side blows. I wish I could remember the name.
The Guardian technology has not proven to work.
I get that. Misinformation is always problematic. But you almost always find the worst of it when someone feels like they have something to lose. Science is always going to be science, though. I have a personal interest and have read many of these studies and asked questions of the authors. Devil is always in the details.
It's an easy stretch guess to attribute football hits to mental issues among football players.
1.The NFL also leads the sporting world in Domestic Abusers/Domestic Abuse (familes, spouses, kids, unrelated females).
2.75% of NFL players end up broke or bankrupt after making fortunes.
3. Drug and alcohol use and abuse is rampant in the NFL.
Given these three characteristics of NFL players (above) I would think many arrive in the league with significant mental issues/impairments!
Football hits might be a factor for some but it isn't the major cause of mental behavioral issues in the NFL !
You have sources? Those are some pretty specific claims so I assume you got this somewhere. Or is this where you ride off and forget this thread exists because you know it's BS?
1. The NBA actually is worse (look it up).
2. Fortunes? 75% of the players in the league make okay money to league minimum for what, three or four years on average?
3. Rampant? The worst drug scandal in US pro sports history belongs to baseball (which still doesn't have much of a testing policy) but I'll wait for the stats.
One other question, why do you think these people are so bad? What do they have in common?
Consider also that NFL players have significant histories of playing football before they arrive in the league, so it's not as if they haven't endured cumulative pre-NFL head trauma.
And pre NFL head trauma made NFL football players sports leaders in domestic abuse, bankruptcy, and drug and alcohol abuse?? LOL!
If football is such a terrible game why are you on this message board, why do you support football, watch football, or go to games.
It's destroying human life and you "do gooders" hate that right?
You should be working on protest signs right now and hitting the streets tomorrow! You can use the empty reverse side of you global warming protest signs or your no borders signs.
But you won't because its not!
I've said this before if football automatically creates mentally unstable people due to head trauma than football should be cancelled now today all football. No more practices, no more games!
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No, I won't because I don't fit the stereotype (or one of them at least)--I'm employed
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