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Pitt Basketball Mt. Rushmore

pittguy81 said:
Hinson would have been lucky to get 20 minutes a game on a team with Bobby Martin, Brian Shorter, Jason Matthews, Sean Miller , Darelle Porter and Rod....and I love Blake Hinson....but Matthews was a better 3 point shooter and the shots went to Martin, Shorter and Mathews....and Brookins still got to double digits with great shooting stats from both 3 pt and regular range. Hinson wouldn't have gotten 9 3's a game with that team
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There’s no doubt Hinson would have been a starter and double digit point producer on that team. He would easily have gotten more than 20 minutes a game.

Miller was a pass first point guard and would have hooked up Hinson. Then when the other team doubled the post that would open things up for Blake. That lineup would be lethal because you have 2 excellent 3 point shooters in Matthews and Hinson.
 
TheSpecialSauce said:
There’s no doubt Hinson would have been a starter and double digit point producer on that team. He would easily have gotten more than 20 minutes a game.

Miller was a pass first point guard and would have hooked up Hinson. Then when the other team doubled the post that would open things up for Blake. That lineup would be lethal because you have 2 excellent 3 point shooters in Matthews and Hinson.
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Well, we all have our opinions. Brookins was a career 41% 3 pt shooter...and he actually played defense, although he struggled when he gained weight....like Blake did.
 
pittguy81 said:
Well, we all have our opinions. Brookins was a career 41% 3 pt shooter...and he actually played defense, although he struggled when he gained weight....like Blake did.
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That team was basically a 6-man rotation and Hinson has been more consistent and productive than Brookin. It was more “what if” with Rod. Pat Cavanaugh was the 7th leading scorer on that team for goodness sake. There would be plenty of minutes available.
 
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TheSpecialSauce said:
That team was basically a 6-man rotation and Hinson has been more consistent and productive than Brookin. It was more “what if” with Rod. Pat Cavanaugh was the 7th leading scorer on that team for goodness sake. There would be plenty of minutes available.
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I think they would have split the minutes....and we'll never know who is correct...because it's opinion.
 
Disclaimer: I have only followed Pitt hoops since the late 90s and know very little about anything before then. So basically, the Mt Rushmore from the past 25 years….

Knight, Krauser, Wanamaker, Blair

Fields would be a close HM
 
TheSpecialSauce said:
There’s no doubt Hinson would have been a starter and double digit point producer on that team. He would easily have gotten more than 20 minutes a game.

Miller was a pass first point guard and would have hooked up Hinson. Then when the other team doubled the post that would open things up for Blake. That lineup would be lethal because you have 2 excellent 3 point shooters in Matthews and Hinson.
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I think Hinson would have fit in wonderfully as the starting three on that team. The only issue would be that his special skill - three point shooting - was not nearly the thing then that it is now.

His main competition for minutes would have actually been Rod Brookin. They are pretty similar players, but Blake is superior to Rod.
 
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TheSpecialSauce said:
You can’t leave Sam Young off a list over the past 25 years. That’s sacrilegious.
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I loved Brad as much as anyone. But Sam was clearly superior. Over the last 25 years, it’s Sam, Blair and Knight for sure. You could make cases for several for the last spot including Carl, Chevy, Brad, Aaron, Levance and even Lamar, Justin or Blake.

All time, the list starts with Billy Knight and Charles Smith. I’ll leave off Don Hennon because he’s before my time. But the last 2 have to come from a group of Vaughan, Lane, Shorter, Brandin, Sam and Blair. I’d probably go with Brandin and Blair.
 
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Cmart2004 said:
Disclaimer: I have only followed Pitt hoops since the late 90s and know very little about anything before then. So basically, the Mt Rushmore from the past 25 years….

Knight, Krauser, Wanamaker, Blair

Fields would be a close HM
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I used to watch players like Jaron Brown contain players like Carmelo Anthony, who is twice the talent Hinson is. The strength of schedule means a lot and the quality of defenses you are going up against means a lot.

I used to watch players like Julius Page put a blanket on players like Ben Gordon and John Lucas III who got completely shut down by Page in the sweet 16 and Lucas was the Big 12 player of the year. As soon as Page would go to the bench in those Uconn games, Ben Gordon would start to tear us up. Its exactly what happened in the Big East Tournament. Gordon won the national title and was unstoppable in the NCAA Tournament.


I would love to watch Blake Hinson go up against Wanamaker, Brown, Page, or Knight. All 4 of them are giving up a height advantage but I think Blake Hinson is going to find things much, much, more difficult going up against 1 seeds and conference champions and Elite defensive players. Ben Gordon, Carmelo Anthony, etc.. these guys are National Champions. And its not just Hinson who Im not trying to put down here.

We used to churn out top 5 nationally ranked defenses in the country and chew up and spit out Elite offensive talent game after game.


The defensive capability of these players is getting massively underrated. A guy like Burton was a decent defensive player. He's no where near Page, Knight, Wanamaker, or Brown. When Wanamaker was a senior, Pitt had a top 20 nationally ranked defense in the country on a conference champion that earned a 1 seed that put 11 teams in the NCAA tournament. When Wanamaker and Gary Mcghee left the following year, that defense with Ashton Gibbs as the captain of the team fell out of the national top 150. That's in 1 years time without the heart of Wanamaker leading.
 
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TheSpecialSauce said:
That team was basically a 6-man rotation and Hinson has been more consistent and productive than Brookin. It was more “what if” with Rod. Pat Cavanaugh was the 7th leading scorer on that team for goodness sake. There would be plenty of minutes available.
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pittguy81 said:
I think they would have split the minutes....and we'll never know who is correct...because it's opinion.
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The strength of schedule means a ton along with the actual win loss record.

Here is an example-

Pitt 2009- Strength of Schedule National Rank- 19 Overall Record 31-5

Pitt 2011- Strength of Schedule National Rank 26 Overall Record- 28-6

Pitt 2024- Strength of Schedule- 94 Overall Record- 17-8





We played 10 ranked teams in 2011 for example, most of which were in the National Top 15. And also played Texas and Maryland in the non conference. This year, we have played 4 ranked teams. These schedules aren't even remotely comparable.


This is the first big problem when stats are thrown around with players like Hinson. Again, Im not trying to put him down here, but the harder the teams he plays against with better defenses, the worse his stats are going to be. Tearing up North Carolina A&T is the not the same thing as tearing up 4 ranked teams all in a row.

The defensive team rankings are also important. But defense is often little talked about. Its why Ashton Gibbs gets so much hype. He's all offense and his team fully collapsed when he was a senior. Just like Hinson and just like Champagnie. these are mostly 1 way players only, offense. Champ rebounded but he was well below average on defense and was extremely bad in transition defense. Ill forgive him somewhat because of the leg injury. There is no way I would ever take Champ over Chevy Troutman on a college basketball team.


Like NCAA Tournament seeding, it matters who you play and who you beat for individual players. What doesn't matter is the score at the end of the game. Whether the score is 41-40 or 99-98, the only thing that matters is winning. You can have the greatest stats, but if your win loss record sucks because you play zero defense, than your stats dont carry much value.


Again, Im not putting Hinson down here as a player. He has been terrific for a good chunk of this season on offense. But some people are putting this guy along with other 1 way players that couldn't win without other Elite talent carrying the load. Ashton Gibbs couldnt carry the load without Wanamaker.

Hinson has his chance. I love this guys personality, his attitude, thats all great. But a guy like him needs to stockpile a ton of wins to finish this season out to be in the same discussion as these other players.


Beating teams that win conference championships, win the national title, or go to the Final 4 is what type of caliber player you are. If you run the stats up against Alabama State and 10 other nobodies like Xavier Johnson, nobody cares. Beating contenders makes you a contender. Beating a contender makes you great. Beating nobodies with great stats mean nothing.
 
JD1976 said:
You picked out some convenient examples there. My own 2 eyes saw it differently when comparing the two decades in totality. You also didn’t mention 1985 when the Big East had 3 Final 4 teams, or the fact that mostly also-ran programs like Providence and Seton Hall made Final 4 appearances.
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Yeah, I am of the mind that you can make a case for either of those periods, to me they are pretty much equal.
 
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BreakingPitt said:
Has to include Blake Hinson. ?
Dude helped bring back Pitt basketball almost as much as Brandin Knight.
Almost.
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Recentism...I think Pfizer has a vaccine to take care of that now...the only current treatment for this form is to list the Mt Rushmore before Hinson and tell us who you are kicking off to make room for him...
 
Clyde Vaughan is on my mountain, alongside Billy, Brandin and Sam.

Brookin is underrated, but never had the burden of being the focus of the opposition’s defense.

Wanamaker? No, not on my mountain.
 
Pitt5593 said:
Brandin was very good but he wasn’t in Billy’s class. First round pick. Multiple times NBA all star. Not in the same ball park.
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BballinsiderfromPitt said:
A Mount Rushmore, wrong answers only as I did, would provide a good bit of comedy.
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Most random 4 names I can come up with with near lack of notoriety of almost any kind :
Sortiris Aggelou
Nate Cochran ( favorite Rafferty line after send it in .. he looks like if you roughed him he’d rough you back…)
Nate Bailey
Stephen Flores
 
PittMBA said:
Most random 4 names I can come up with with near lack of notoriety of almost any kind :
Sortiris Aggelou
Nate Cochran ( favorite Rafferty line after send it in .. he looks like if you roughed him he’d rough you back…)
Nate Bailey
Stephen Flores
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Aggelou is a great name.
My list - Griffin Abel, Tim Frye, Gino Federico and Scott Columbo
 
BballinsiderfromPitt said:
Aggelou is a great name.
My list - Griffin Abel, Tim Frye, Gino Federico and Scott Columbo
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But your list is a walk on list.

@PittMBA ’s list is of players on scholarship. (Cochran walked on from the football team I guess).

Here’s some others who were on scholarship but didn’t make a mark:

Rich Carrigan
Dominic Dumancic
Travis Zeigler
John Finneman
Kevin Leslie
Ed Turner
Tyrone Haughton
 
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DT_PITT said:
But your list is a walk on list.

@PittMBA ’s list is of players on scholarship. (Cochran walked on from the football team I guess).

Here’s some others who were on scholarship but didn’t make a mark:

Rich Carrigan
Dominic Dumancic
Travis Zeigler
John Finneman
Kevin Leslie
Ed Turner
Tyrone Haughton
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Well it's a wrong answers only list. I can make it up however I want!
 
DT_PITT said:
But your list is a walk on list.

@PittMBA ’s list is of players on scholarship. (Cochran walked on from the football team I guess).

Here’s some others who were on scholarship but didn’t make a mark:

Rich Carrigan
Dominic Dumancic
Travis Zeigler
John Finneman
Kevin Leslie
Ed Turner
Tyrone Haughton
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Dumancic and Finneman are good calls.
 
Vader_Storm said:
You are a huge Pitt history guy.

Who's your top 5 Pitt teams all time? You have had to have ranked them at some point I would imagine.

Here are the pomeroy rankings of the past Pitt teams at seasons end.

2003- 3rd, We were 1st at one point for a while but then he changed something with how he ranked the teams.
2004- 5th
2002- 16th
2008- 22nd
2009- 3rd
2011- 4th




Those were some special seasons. Obviously 2002 is the weakest in this list above in my opinion. Do you have any 80s teams in your top 5 all time?

My top 5 all time is all coming in the golden era above.
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For me, All TIme needs to start in 1980 when I started watching in earnest.

(I mean, I "watched" the 74 team play NC State but I was 7).

1. The 2009 team was the best. I have little doubt. They had the talent and played to their strengths. The were an ungodly offensive rebounding team.
2. 2003 -- quite good also -- better defensively that 2009 -- but not quite as explosive.
3. 2011 -- extremely consistent
4. 2004 -- best defensive team I'm ever seen, but could not shoot the three to save their life.
5. 1988 -- so much talent -- never played great basketball.
6. 2008 -- The BE Tournament run was amazing basketball
7. 2007 - also consistent -- if only Sam was healthy
8. 2002 -- loved this team
9. 2010 -- maybe my favorite season because it was so surprising.
10. 1987 -- Our first trip into the top 10 in my lifetime.
 
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DT_PITT said:
For me, All TIme needs to start in 1980 when I started watching in earnest.

(I mean, I "watched" the 74 team play NC State but I was 7).

1. The 2009 team was the best. I have little doubt. They had the talent and played to their strengths. The were an ungodly offensive rebounding team.
2. 2003 -- quite good also -- better defensively that 2009 -- but not quite as explosive.
3. 2011 -- extremely consistent
4. 2004 -- best defensive team I'm ever seen, but could not shoot the three to save their life.
5. 1988 -- so much talent -- never played great basketball.
6. 2008 -- The BE Tournament run was amazing basketball
7. 2007 - also consistent -- if only Sam was healthy
8. 2002 -- loved this team
9. 2010 -- maybe my favorite season because it was so surprising.
10. 1987 -- Our first trip into the top 10 in my lifetime.
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Regarding the 2008 team.

Are you ranking that team by what they did with the Mike Cook loss included?

Or, in other words, had Mike Cook and Levance Fields never got injured since we lost zero games with that team at full strength, would you rank the 2008 team higher than where you have them if those 2 guys stayed healthy.
 
Vader_Storm said:
Regarding the 2008 team.

Are you ranking that team by what they did with the Mike Cook loss included?

Or, in other words, had Mike Cook and Levance Fields never got injured since we lost zero games with that team at full strength, would you rank the 2008 team higher than where you have them if those 2 guys stayed healthy.
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How they were at the end of the year.
 
Vader_Storm said:
Ashton Gibbs fell on his face as a senior without Wanamaker. Wanamaker was the glue of those teams.
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Gibbs fell on his face because he switched from playing off the ball to PG with Jamie's encouragement, both of them knowing that was his only shot to make a pro team. he was much better without the ball in his hands, running off screens, catching and shooting.

Wanamaker was a winner, a leader, tough, leader, versatile, unselfish, a grit and glue guy. Took two full seasons to develop into a guy that could be on the floor for a lot of minutes. The engine that drove the bus. Good player without a ton of talent or athleticism, but was probably the most important player on the team. Prototype Dixon player.

On the Mt. Rushmore of Pitt basketball? Not even close.
 
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4Mark_Marty said:
He’s twice the player Rod was.
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Disagree with this, at least from a talent perspective.

Hinson is a one dimensional shooter, and a good one. But that's really all he is.

Before Rod was declared academically ineligible for the second half of his soph year, he was on track to become an all-American. At 6'5 he had it all--shooting, mid-range game, handle, good passer, silky smooth, strong rebounder and he was an explosive dunker. Came back for his junior season severely overwieght and was never the same player.
 
thebadby2 said:
Gibbs fell on his face because he switched from playing off the ball to PG with Jamie's encouragement, both of them knowing that was his only shot to make a pro team. he was much better without the ball in his hands, running off screens, catching and shooting.

Wanamaker was a winner, a leader, tough, leader, versatile, unselfish, a grit and glue guy. Took two full seasons to develop into a guy that could be on the floor for a lot of minutes. The engine that drove the bus. Good player without a ton of talent or athleticism, but was probably the most important player on the team. Prototype Dixon player.

On the Mt. Rushmore of Pitt basketball? Not even close.
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Gibbs and Pitt fell on its face the year after Wanamaker left because Gibbs never could play defense. Ever. He was severely covered up because Wanamaker and Mcghee were the 2 defensive anchors on the 2011 1 seed team and Wanamaker was the defensive stud of the team, the captain, and the leader on both ends of the floor.

The team defense fell from top 20 nationally all the way out of the national top 150 year over year. It completely nosedived defensively.

Its not that Gibbs just struggled to shoot the ball, granted, Carl Krauser never had this problem and he had a freshmen Ron Ramon, Yuri Demetris, and John Degroat to work with after Page and Brown graduated and Krauser still willed Pitt into the NCAA Tournament and deep into the Big East Tournament. Pitt fell off a cliff because the defense fell off a cliff. Pitt's offense was still good the year after Wanamaker left the team even though Gibbs shooting stats were not near as good.


Defense matters. Its why Julius Page and Jaron Brown won 3 Big East Championships in a row in the regular season and played in 3 straight sweet 16s. Both Page and Brown are superior to Gibbs too.


Its like Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain. Chamberlain has all his scoring stats and records. Russell won all the championships with defense. It almost amazing that a guy that was averaging 40 points per game and 25 rebounds per game only could win 2 NBA titles. Bill Russell on the other hand. 11 NBA Titles.
 
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thebadby2 said:
Disagree with this, at least from a talent perspective.

Hinson is a one dimensional shooter, and a good one. But that's really all he is.

Before Rod was declared academically ineligible for the second half of his soph year, he was on track to become an all-American. At 6'5 he had it all--shooting, mid-range game, handle, good passer, silky smooth, strong rebounder and he was an explosive dunker. Came back for his junior season severely overwieght and was never the same player.
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Thanks for the back up. When I compared Blake to Brookin it was a compliment, not a slam.
 
Vader_Storm said:
In 2009, the Big East earned 3 number 1 seeds in the NCAA Tournament which is a tournament record. The Big East put 5 teams in the Sweet 16 which is a tournament record, 4 teams in the Elite 8 which is a tournament record, along with 2 in the Final 4 and Villanova ended up eliminating Pitt in the Elite 8.

In 2011 the Big East smashed the NCAA Tournament record for most NCAA Tournament teams with 11 from 1 conference.



In 1987 the Big East only had 9 teams. 3 of those teams had a losing record for the season. 5 teams from the Big East made the NCAA tournament. 3 made the Sweet 16 or beyond.

In 1988 the Big East had 6 NCAA Tournament teams. None made the Sweet 16.


Its not like the Big East was bad in the 80s. Its just that the Big East in the mid 2000s was superior to everyone in every which way.
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In 1985 the Big East had 3 of the 4 Final Four teams.
 
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thebadby2 said:
Disagree with this, at least from a talent perspective.

Hinson is a one dimensional shooter, and a good one. But that's really all he is.

Before Rod was declared academically ineligible for the second half of his soph year, he was on track to become an all-American. At 6'5 he had it all--shooting, mid-range game, handle, good passer, silky smooth, strong rebounder and he was an explosive dunker. Came back for his junior season severely overwieght and was never the same player.
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I mean - that’s kind of the point . Brookins couldn’t stay on the court and barely impacted the program .

Hinson is proving to be a leader on and off the court and as dynamic a shooter / scorer as we’ve ever had . Their careers just aren’t comparable imo.
 
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